Quote from: One Horse TownConsidering that the AP was not just a random 'at home game' and was a demo at Gencon, the biggest RPG con, then i'd assume the same.

And don't forget that someone else said that his friends played in a demo game that sounded exactly like that example, and it sounded like it was a different demo game.  So unless they determined that it was actually the same game, then it sounds like two demos at GenCon went down that route.

Quote from: gleichmanI suppose you'd rather have "good men do nothing". Sometimes you lose the battle, sometimes you win. But isn't there a spiritual victory in fighting no matter the outcome?

There's no victory in this.  There's not even a battle.  All you're doing is stating your opinion and spreading awareness of the game at the same time.  You're not going to change the author's mind, you're not going to stop the game from being produced/sold, and you're not going to keep people who are interested in this sort of game from buying it.  In fact, after 20 pages of discussion, I would hazard a guess that, like One Horse Town said, you've actually helped to sell at least one copy of the game.  I don't see how you can say that's a victory.  

Pete

PS - I'd never buy or play this game, but I probably would never have heard of it either if you hadn't brought it up here.  Any publicity is good publicity.

*double post*

Quote from: hgjs*shrug*  Everyone's entitled to his opinion.  For example, I myself think that you and walkerp are pretty fucked up.  It seems that you're either trolling or, like the archetypical cat-piss man, completely oblivious to modern social norms.

I've met droog, and he's no catpissman. He's just a gamer like everyone else. My impression is that after many years of gaming, he's just always on the lookout for something new and different he can experiment with, but that at the same time his satedness with gaming makes him a bit detached from it, and easy to bore.

So freaky shit will spark his interest!

Quote from: StuartAs an aside, I think it was a woman who narrated that bit at the demo...

And I'd say it's likely that she also doesn't have a regular game group, or at least has a narrower range of gamers to choose from than do people with... less gross tastes in gaming.

I once knew a woman gamer who as GM kept having male PCs' bollocks cut off. She said of the game, "if the character lose Humanity, I want the players to lose some humanity, too!" by which she meant we would be freaked out. But see, horror's a hard thing to do. That's why she as GM, like so many movie-makers, just went for squirm-inducing gore and violence. There were other scenes that I'd rather not recall - I don't watch movies like Saw, and I'm not interested in that kind of thing in my rpg sessions. And she no longer has a regular game group.

It takes effort, consistently-applied effort, some imagination and rapport to hold a game group together through a whole campaign, and not just have the group fizzle out. Or you have to be offering something else, like a gamer I know who stuck with a horrible campaign because the GM provided great food, and he could swap pirated movies and games with the other players. But anyway, to hold the game group together for a real campaign people remember with any fondness, that takes effort, imagination and some rapport. And from what I've seen, the people who like this gross shit in their game sessions, it just doesn't last. That campaign doesn't last, and neither does the group. And nobody remembers it fondly.

Quote from: Consonant DudeI know this is going to sound like heresy but after RPGsite, my second favorite forum is quickly becoming story-games.

RPG.net is now strictly a "what's new" ressource for me. It's so big that it pretty much garantees they break many news. But as far as actual discussions? It wasn't worth posting anymore and now, it's isn't even worth reading for me.

I can see that. I recently posted to SJGames forum this warp drive idea, idea was we get a cheap and easy warp drive in the modern day, okay what are the campaign possibilities? But let's ignore any weapon stuff, I said, I just want to talk about setting and roleplaying stuff. Of course they ignored that and started rabbitting on about blowing shit up. Now, people will still do that sort of thing here, but at least here you can call them cocksmocks and they might go away. At SJGames, the moderated politeness means that genuinely annoying people get to keep yapping. rpg.net's much the same.

So on rpg.net you can talk about how much fun it was in a game session to have your character decapitate a child and fuck his oesphagus, but you can't say, "you're a freak." The result is that the first type of guy hangs around, while others go away. That's like when you've got an annoying gamer in your game group and do nothing so the good gamers get pissed off and leave, and the annoying gamer stays. Not, I think, an optimum result.

Quote from: walkerpSo it's not okay to criticize other people's playstyle or systems of choice, but it is okay to judge them based on the moral content of their games?

I never said it wasn't okay to criticise other people's playstyles. I think everything's open to criticism - but you should have some basis to that criticism, or admit it's just personal taste.

That said, I think that for most people the distinction is between things that matter and things that don't. Whether you're more hacky or more thespy, like d20 or SotC, those are things that don't really matter. Fantasies of murder, rape, etc - to most people, those things matter.

I think the issue is also public image. We instinctively worry what non-gamers will think of us. Now, if we're just pretending to be elven princesses and noble knights and grumpy dwarves with battleaxes, people will think we're childish and silly, but not nasty. We can handle people laughing at us and our hobby, everyone's hobby gets laughed at by someone. But if we're pretending to be necrophiliac child rapists, then...

Basically, these kinds of gamers are an embarassment to the gaming world, for the same reasons that the catpissman is. They make us look bad, and are an obstacle to recruiting new gamers. This sort of gamer is the "Achtung! Minen!" sign outside Gamesville. People won't cross that space.

Quote from: jeff37923So this is more of a debate as to whether the games are high art or low art?

The fuck?

No, I'm saying that the "a-word" is all too often deployed as a means of cowing people into discarding their own critical faculties, lest they be seen as yokels, and as a way of shoring up the self-esteem of self-indulgent adolescents.

I was surprised that Vincent took the time to post to the thread, but said nothing about the Actual Play report, or the overall discussion going on.  Hopefully he's taking his time to write something well thought out and will post it soon.

Quote from: -E.I don't think anyone's confusing reality with fiction; but people are judged by the fiction they produce.

If they were, there' be a report with law enforcement filed (GenCon was the scene of the crime, etc.).

As is, we're responding with opinion against opinion. That likely means we have reality straight here.

Quote from: droogAnd your point is...?

Beyond you it seems, both morally and Intellectually.

There's a comparison going on in the thread concerned here and elsewhere.

D&D also allows you to be evil and do fucked up things!

Yes, yes, it does, but there's a very large difference between what has been presented with P and d&d and other comparisons.

The 'P' game gives you short term bonuses (apparantly), as well as consequences for commiting the 'sins' presented in the game. We already know that a woman dressing as a man (as boasted in the GenCon AP thread) gets a blasphemy rating for raping a woman dressed as a 'man'; whatever the fuck blasphemy does, no one bothered to address that. The sins affect the core 'personality mechanics' of the game. Be a bastard and you find it difficult to be trusted and be 'kind' later on, but you get a bonus for being a bastard later on.

If i saw the example below in d&d, then i would be convinced of the defense put up that d&d is no different.

Human Pirates

HD 1
AC 15
Attack +2 Cutlass
Damage 1d6 +1

CR 1
Xps 300
Murder, +1 BaB next combat
Rape, +2 Bonus Intimidate, - 2 Penalty Bluff & Dimplomacy
Adultery, + 1 Bonus Bluff, - 1 Sense Motive


etc, etc. There is a difference here. Sure, juveniles can do exactly what they please, but the mechanics of the game do not plug directly in the way that sins do in Poison'd as they have been presented so far.

Note that if such an incident of pedo-necrophilia occurred in real life, their ship mates would kill them for being too untrustworthy to live. Even pirates had a moral code.

Quote from: mythusmageNote that if such an incident of pedo-necrophilia occurred in real life, their ship mates would kill them for being too untrustworthy to live. Even pirates had a moral code.

Wow.... That was often very true.

 Wish I had remembered that in this whole debate.....on both forums.

Heck, in real life even criminals in jail treat child molesters as pariahs and often deal out their own version of "justice" to them.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Kyle AaronSo on rpg.net you can talk about how much fun it was in a game session to have your character decapitate a child and fuck his oesphagus, but you can't say, "you're a freak."

Well, close.

You probably couldn't get away with it on RPG.net if you said you used FATAL to fuck the child's head. But using a game by a run-of-the mill, "edgy" pervert-designer? You get a round of applause.

Well, either way - that the mods told me I didn't fit into rpg.net no longer feels like an insult.

Quote from: gleichmanBeyond you it seems, both morally and Intellectually.

Strong response, g, very strong.

Nobody should reply to droog. It´s pointless.
He has a shoddy education and a total lack of dignity. EDIT: Better say: he doesn´t display neither dignity nor a rigorous education online.
He is not even funny.
He just enjoys being contrary, feeling smart while doing it.

But he´s not.