So it's not okay to criticize other people's playstyle or systems of choice, but it is okay to judge them based on the moral content of their games?

Talk about having it both ways.

I guess we're creatively relativists but moral absolutists here on therpgsite.

Quote from: walkerpSo it's not okay to criticize other people's playstyle or systems of choice, but it is okay to judge them based on the moral content of their games?

Talk about having it both ways.

Playstyle and moral contents are two entirely different matters, so I don't see the connection you're trying to make at all.

(And no, I'm not particularly outraged by Poison'd. But playstyle is apple and moral content is orange)

Quote from: walkerpSo it's not okay to criticize other people's playstyle or systems of choice, but it is okay to judge them based on the moral content of their games?

Talk about having it both ways.

I guess we're creatively relativists but moral absolutists here on therpgsite.

Somehow, I don't think you'd be defending this game so adamantly if it were d20, walkerp.

Quote from: jeff37923Somehow, I don't think you'd be defending this game so adamantly if it were d20, walkerp.

 ...Also, if the same scene were described as taking place in a D20 game - I still would not ever want to play with the people that enjoyed such a bit of roleplay.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar...Also, if the same scene were described as taking place in a D20 game - I still would not ever want to play with the people that enjoyed such a bit of roleplay.


- Ed C.

Agreed.

That's why I condemn d20 tripe like Faith and Blood as well. I don't think a game should be designed that supports sociopathic behavior in play that isn't a parody.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityThat was just incredible. Best computer game moment I remember having.

Moments like that are why I play computer games, we should chat about great gaming moments in the electronic gaming forum, usually I find online everyone just talks about games that are only on consoles (I play on the PC) and often just about japanese console rpgs which I don't play and to be honest which sound way too scripted for my tastes (nothing against them, they just don't grab me).

CoD, CoD2 in that wonderful scene where the lieutenant is wondering what to do and some guy says "let's go" and then you're all charging up the hill, Halo the first time the battle music kicks in, truly great stuff.

Note: Haven't read 19 pages of this thread; this post is responding to the OP. I assume by this point the conversation has drifted pirates versus ninja or something and my response is purely irrelevant.

But that's never stopped me from posting in the past.

...

One of the reasons it's "demanding and painful" to talk about RPG criticism online is that the thought that comes out of the forge is incoherent (and I mean that in the normal, not-logical, doesn't-make-sense meaning of the word).

Brian points out the example (a good one) from the thread ref'd in the OP.

What you have to understand is that the less coherent the theory is, the better it actually works for what it's really used for: judging other people's fun.

A real, cogent, theory wouldn't give them the results they're looking for (a claim of superiority) -- it would, mostly, suggest they're doing what everyone else is... well almost: I've *never* played in a game like that. If I had, I wouldn't be proud of it.

I have heard about "evil" games where people get off on atrocity. I thought it was a strictly adolescent thing.

Apparently, for the indie crowd, it's not.

Hmm.
-E.

Quote from: gleichmanOh there's more to that leap than that simple dodge you either knowingly or unknowingly made there.

DitV is basically the exact same product and attempt as Poison'd- making a game that explores "how far will you go". The only difference is that it picked a subject that wouldn't by it's natue immediately go as far as fast.

And your point is...?

Quote from: walkerpSo it's not okay to criticize other people's playstyle or systems of choice, but it is okay to judge them based on the moral content of their games?

Talk about having it both ways.

I guess we're creatively relativists but moral absolutists here on therpgsite.

Let's keep something in sight here--we're not talking about some grey-area moral issue here, such as a heroine agonzing over an abortion or someone stealing a loaf of bread to feed his starving family.

We're talking about decapitating, throatfucking pedophilia.  

I don't give a shit about art, shock value, relative morality, or whatever other cards folks want to play.  If folks want to try to be edgy and play devil's advocate and shill for the game by being "outrageous" and defending it or whatever, hey, its your time.  But I have to say I'd be pretty disturbed if folks weren't, well, disturbed, by that sort of sociopathic such-and-such.

OK, seriously, done with the topic now.

Quote from: walkerpSo it's not okay to criticize other people's playstyle or systems of choice, but it is okay to judge them based on the moral content of their games?

Talk about having it both ways.

I guess we're creatively relativists but moral absolutists here on therpgsite.

I don't need to be a relativist to expect criticism to make sense and to expect the principles used to criticize to be consistent.

RPG theory doesn't make sense and isn't applied consistently by its advocates -- that's the whole point of this thread.

There are frameworks of moral judgment -- deontological ones -- that can be applied consistently (and they make sense if you accept the foundational axioms).

People in the business of RPG criticism should get their own house in order before they set forth into the world; they'll get a better reception that way.

Anyone who doesn't expect to be judged for talking in public about how they raped a decapitated head is a moron.

Cheers,
-E.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstLet's keep something in sight here--we're not talking about some grey-area moral issue here, such as a heroine agonzing over an abortion or someone stealing a loaf of bread to feed his starving family.

We're talking about decapitating, throatfucking pedophilia.  

I don't give a shit about art, shock value, relative morality, or whatever other cards folks want to play.  If folks want to try to be edgy and play devil's advocate and shill for the game by being "outrageous" and defending it or whatever, hey, its your time.  But I have to say I'd be pretty disturbed if folks weren't, well, disturbed, by that sort of sociopathic such-and-such.

Thing is, we're not talking about real things. We're talking about fiction.

I've heard things just as bad come out of the mouths of my own friends. In fact, I think one of my friends independently invented the neck-rape in a game called 'What's My Perversion?' (think yes/no questions). Maybe I'm old and jaded, but you know, it's just not shocking. It's certainly not 'edgy', what ever that means this week. It might be funny, depending on content and delivery.

Honestly, some of you need to lighten up. There are terrible things going on every day. How can you get so hot about some chick taking it a bit far in a game?

And the first week I ran D&D, the players were committing atrocities. Sure, they were on orcs and kobolds, but at that point I could have gone well fuck, D&D makes people act like dipshits.

Quote from: droogThing is, we're not talking about real things. We're talking about fiction.

I've heard things just as bad come out of the mouths of my own friends. In fact, I think one of my friends independently invented the neck-rape in a game called 'What's My Perversion?' (think yes/no questions). Maybe I'm old and jaded, but you know, it's just not shocking. It's certainly not 'edgy', what ever that means this week. It might be funny, depending on content and delivery.

Honestly, some of you need to lighten up. There are terrible things going on every day. How can you get so hot about some chick taking it a bit far in a game?

And the first week I ran D&D, the players were committing atrocities. Sure, they were on orcs and kobolds, but at that point I could have gone well fuck, D&D makes people act like dipshits.

Why do you keep leaving out the pedophilia?

Cuz, you know, that could be real funny.  Depending on content and delivery, of course.

Quote from: droogThing is, we're not talking about real things. We're talking about fiction.

Calling something "fiction" does not give it a blanket excuse or out. Sick shit is still well, sick shit.

QuoteI've heard things just as bad come out of the mouths of my own friends. In fact, I think one of my friends independently invented the neck-rape in a game called 'What's My Perversion?' .......

...and you're still friends with them....interesting.

QuoteAnd the first week I ran D&D, the players were committing atrocities. Sure, they were on orcs and kobolds, but at that point I could have gone well fuck, D&D makes people act like dipshits.

No people and GMs can act like dipshits or let their players act like dipshits. its not the game. (Tho some games might set up tables and charts that encourage it)If you and your um...friends chose to act stupid ...then that was your choice to act adolescent or even less mature than that.


- Ed C.

Quote from: droogThing is, we're not talking about real things. We're talking about fiction.

I've heard things just as bad come out of the mouths of my own friends. In fact, I think one of my friends independently invented the neck-rape in a game called 'What's My Perversion?' (think yes/no questions). Maybe I'm old and jaded, but you know, it's just not shocking. It's certainly not 'edgy', what ever that means this week. It might be funny, depending on content and delivery.

Honestly, some of you need to lighten up. There are terrible things going on every day. How can you get so hot about some chick taking it a bit far in a game?

And the first week I ran D&D, the players were committing atrocities. Sure, they were on orcs and kobolds, but at that point I could have gone well fuck, D&D makes people act like dipshits.

I don't think anyone's confusing reality with fiction; but people are judged by the fiction they produce.

Now it's true: quality counts and if you're funny or insightful you can get away with a lot... but let's face it: based on what I read in that thread, it sounds like the material we're talking about is a lot more Richard McBeef than American Psycho (and quality-wise, American Psycho is about as low as I'd go and have my name publicly attached to something).

Part of going public with something is risking being judged. People who aren't willing to accept that risk should keep their role-playing amongst friends. People who expect to brag about this kind of stuff and not get harshly judged for it... well, I already addressed that a couple of posts up.

Cheers,
-E.

It's not pedophilia, Zach. It's somebody making shit up.

Here you go: licking new-born babies was my best effort when we played 'What's My Perversion?' Would you like to paint me as a child-molester now?



[And seeing you edited: I made a table of guys piss themselves laughing with a pedophile joke a couple of weeks ago. Want to hear it?]