Personally I think the best way to think about Shadowdark is not that it is innovative in that it is full of new mechanics as that simply isn't the case. What is innovative is what mechanics are included, kind of like a new recipe made from familiar ingredients. Tastes good but none of the ingredients are new, just how they are blended.

I'm on the Shadowdark Discord, and most of the folks seem ok though typically there are some leftist twots. Kelsey herself doesn't get involved in political stuff and one of the rules of the Discord is:

"No politics, real or implied. All alignments are true neutral while in here."

Which is pretty reasonable given how some operate.

Regarding to the marketing, Kelsey is married, and her wife (yes she does get a free pass from some for being a lesbian) works in marketing which goes a long way into explaining why the campaign was so successful, a point I think missed by most.

As for Kelsey herself, she says she likes humancentric S&S style play, and that her favourite Conan story is Red Nails, which is mine also, so that goes in her favour.

Yes the players can be rabid in defending her/Shadowdark, and I'm sure there is plenty of white knighting going on, but I think most of the conflict comes from differing interpretations of Shadowdark's 'innovation' as noted in my first paragraph.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 05:09:22 AM

Quote from: S'mon on September 01, 2024, 02:39:32 PMRe rests @Jeff it has no short rests but has full recovery on an 8 hour long rest, the 5e DNA is pretty obvious. Also has bounded accuracy, advantage etc

S'mon, I think that you are a great guy, but you are demonstrating a behavior that turns me off of a game system. The pushiness of fans of the system to play it. I had my fill of that with 4E, 5E, and WotC Organized Play because I was branded a homophobic racist locally since those versions of D&D don't interest me and I was uninterested in playing. Sorry, but everything that you have said that you find good about the game, I associate with wokeness and cancel culture.

Granted, that's my hangup, but with several of the internet darlings out now (Mothership and Mork Borg), I can achieve the same level of play enjoyment without spending money on stylish artistic crap or gameplay one trick ponies. Shadowdark is a current hotness, but the price of it is equal to my monthly cell phone bill.

What the Fuck? All I did was tell you it doesn't have Short Rests, since you thought it did. I'm not trying to push it on you. Please fuck off now.

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMI'm on the Shadowdark Discord, and most of the folks seem ok though typically there are some leftist twots. Kelsey herself doesn't get involved in political stuff and one of the rules of the Discord is:

"No politics, real or implied. All alignments are true neutral while in here."

Yeah. I've seen this determinedly non-political stance bring out the twats on both sides. I think it's great to get away from shitty US politics and just play not-D&D. https://x.com/simontmn1/status/1830193591563481579 - my comment criticising some leftist twat for saying Kelsey was "Pro BrOSR",  and saying "One thing I love about Shadowdark is the creator does not do politics" was Liked by both Kelsey Dionne & Harmony Ginger.

Shadowdark is a very well designed game, but one reason I'm playing it and not 5e D&D is to not have Leftist political shit shoved down my throat by Wizards of the Coast. 

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMAs for Kelsey herself, she says she likes humancentric S&S style play, and that her favourite Conan story is Red Nails

I noticed that the game seems very well suited to this play style, and I'm planning to use it with the Midlands (of Argosa) S&S setting written for Low Fantasy Gaming (which is a bit more complex than SD, more of a C&C type feel to me). Some people don't like how SD de-emphasises the importance of Race/Ancestry and want racial attribute mods, I guess they could be houseruled in but I like it how it is.

Edit: The one thing missing for S&S play though is the complete lack of brothels and prostitutes in the otherwise-excellent urban encounter tables. I suspect this was a deliberate design choice and it does mirror Mentzer D&D's child-friendly approach. In this case I suspect it was more to be Woke-friendly, but it fits with eg a more Tolkienesque type setting too.

Quote from: S'mon on September 02, 2024, 07:15:35 AM

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMAs for Kelsey herself, she says she likes humancentric S&S style play, and that her favourite Conan story is Red Nails

I noticed that the game seems very well suited to this play style, and I'm planning to use it with the Midlands (of Argosa) S&S setting written for Low Fantasy Gaming (which is a bit more complex than SD, more of a C&C type feel to me). Some people don't like how SD de-emphasises the importance of Race/Ancestry and want racial attribute mods, I guess they could be houseruled in but I like it how it is.

Edit: The one thing missing for S&S play though is the complete lack of brothels and prostitutes in the otherwise-excellent urban encounter tables. I suspect this was a deliberate design choice and it does mirror Mentzer D&D's child-friendly approach. In this case I suspect it was more to be Woke-friendly, but it fits with eg a more Tolkienesque type setting too.

It is definitely not 18 rated, but you may be interested in: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003133567/the-shucked-oyster-a-cursed-brothel-for-shadowdark-rpg for all your brothel an prostitute needs (didn't think I'd type that sentence into an RPG thread).

As regards S&S Shadowdark, you might be interested in this thread (unfortunately on ENWorld) started by Morten Braten of World of Xoth Fame: https://www.enworld.org/threads/quick-tip-using-shadowdark-rpg-for-sword-sorcery-gaming.704920/

Quote from: Spinachcat on September 01, 2024, 01:53:59 AMI regret not joining the Shadowdark Kickstarter. I can see the arguments on both sides, but what's very clear is the author did her work most bigly - both in game design and marketing.

Kudos to her.

Double kudos for somehow staying out of the culture war.

As for innovation, I'm an OSR guy so I'm less impressed with "new ideas" versus "proven ideas that enhance actual play"

Looking forward to trying out Shadowdark at the table.

BTW, I also see the appeal of OSE. I too love B/X and clean modern layouts will definitely garner attention.

Greetings!

Right, right, brother! I'm not terribly interested in "New Ideas" either. I much prefer tried and true mechanics and systems. Fuck being "New". Most of the new stuff is absolute garbage. Dice pools, weird game cards, widgets and stuffed animals, and weird dice. It is so often claimed to be awesome, but in reality, simply is over complicated and stupid.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Crusader X on September 01, 2024, 04:37:01 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on September 01, 2024, 01:25:17 AM

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2024, 10:33:05 PMGreetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was.

That's how the publisher is selling it.

What Is Shadowdark RPG?

Shadowdark is what an old-school fantasy adventure game would look like after being redesigned with 50 years of innovation.

They are trying to present this as some big innovation and it's not. 

That's not what that sentence is saying.  That sentence is referring to innovation that has been introduced to D&D since 1974.  Such as ascending armor class.  That sentence is not saying that Shadowdark is introducing new innovative concepts that nobody has seen until 2024.

Greetings!

Exactly, Crusader X! Thank you, my friend!

I don't understand why the ShadowDark haters cannot seem to comprehend this concept.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 09:16:08 AMIt is definitely not 18 rated, but you may be interested in: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003133567/the-shucked-oyster-a-cursed-brothel-for-shadowdark-rpg for all your brothel an prostitute needs (didn't think I'd type that sentence into an RPG thread).

As regards S&S Shadowdark, you might be interested in this thread (unfortunately on ENWorld) started by Morten Braten of World of Xoth Fame: https://www.enworld.org/threads/quick-tip-using-shadowdark-rpg-for-sword-sorcery-gaming.704920/

Thanks, but pretty sure I can handle the prostitutes myself
I just posted on that Xoth thread this morning!

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMRegarding to the marketing, Kelsey is married, and her wife (yes she does get a free pass from some for being a lesbian) works in marketing which goes a long way into explaining why the campaign was so successful, a point I think missed by most.

I don't think it's missed at all.  I think this is part of the instinctive reaction a lot of people have against Shadowdark.  When many of the Youtube reviews (by folks who either know or have worked with Kelsey) sound like infomercials, many viewers will have a learned reaction based on the way that modern marketing works.  Think about the way you generally respond to TV infomercials.  I've seen several products on TV that someone I know has bought; a few of them are very good products, but the majority are very flawed at the best.  When you get that same vibe from the marketing for an RPG, people can be forgiven for having a natural reaction of skepticism.  Especially when so much of the marketing is telling you how much you need this game, and how innovative it is... sounds just like something I'd hear on a TV infomercial.  Watch the Baron DeRopp video linked earlier in the thread.  It gushes over the illustrations, the organization, the brevity of the spell descriptions and the rules.  Is that really a selling point?  It slices, it dices, it makes Julian fries!  I actually think, as much as the marketing helped make the game successful with 5e converts and relative newbies to RPGs, it hurt with some segments of the hobby that have seen these marketing pitches before.

None of this has anything to do with how good the game actually is.  I know some people like it a lot.  My group is a bit more of an optimizer group, and Shadowdark's lack of character options turned them off quickly (I'm a bit more of a rules-lite person myself).  I don't begrudge anyone else's fun.  But I do begrudge other people telling me how I am allowed to react to marketing...

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMRegarding to the marketing, Kelsey is married, and her wife (yes she does get a free pass from some for being a lesbian) works in marketing which goes a long way into explaining why the campaign was so successful, a point I think missed by most.

She made a poor choice in partners. I fucking loathe marketing and advertising, and have a revulsion towards anyone involved in that hideous process.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 02, 2024, 08:29:32 PM

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMRegarding to the marketing, Kelsey is married, and her wife (yes she does get a free pass from some for being a lesbian) works in marketing which goes a long way into explaining why the campaign was so successful, a point I think missed by most.

She made a poor choice in partners. I fucking loathe marketing and advertising, and have a revulsion towards anyone involved in that hideous process.

Marketing used to be the attempt to identify people who could be served by your product and explaining the product to them.  Now it is an attempt to convince as many people as possible to buy a product, regardless of whether or not your product will serve a need of theirs.

I'm reminded of a story I was told by a professor in a class back in college.  When the first home telephones were developed, there was one rep in California that was doing triple the sales of everyone else.  When he was called in, the bosses asked him how he sold the phones so well.  He said, "I just told the housewives that they could talk to their neighbors without having to get dressed up" (This was in a time where most people would get dressed up formally, undergarments, outer-garments, make-up, etc.,  just to go to a neighbor's to gossip with them or ask to borrow a pat of butter).  That guy understood the utility of his product.  That's good marketing.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 02, 2024, 06:12:15 PM

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMRegarding to the marketing, Kelsey is married, and her wife (yes she does get a free pass from some for being a lesbian) works in marketing which goes a long way into explaining why the campaign was so successful, a point I think missed by most.

I don't think it's missed at all.  I think this is part of the instinctive reaction a lot of people have against Shadowdark.  When many of the Youtube reviews (by folks who either know or have worked with Kelsey) sound like infomercials, many viewers will have a learned reaction based on the way that modern marketing works.  Think about the way you generally respond to TV infomercials.  I've seen several products on TV that someone I know has bought; a few of them are very good products, but the majority are very flawed at the best.  When you get that same vibe from the marketing for an RPG, people can be forgiven for having a natural reaction of skepticism.  Especially when so much of the marketing is telling you how much you need this game, and how innovative it is... sounds just like something I'd hear on a TV infomercial.  Watch the Baron DeRopp video linked earlier in the thread.  It gushes over the illustrations, the organization, the brevity of the spell descriptions and the rules.  Is that really a selling point?  It slices, it dices, it makes Julian fries!  I actually think, as much as the marketing helped make the game successful with 5e converts and relative newbies to RPGs, it hurt with some segments of the hobby that have seen these marketing pitches before.

None of this has anything to do with how good the game actually is.  I know some people like it a lot.  My group is a bit more of an optimizer group, and Shadowdark's lack of character options turned them off quickly (I'm a bit more of a rules-lite person myself).  I don't begrudge anyone else's fun.  But I do begrudge other people telling me how I am allowed to react to marketing...

I think part of that is Baron Darop kinda naturally comes off as a tool.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 02, 2024, 08:47:27 PMMarketing used to be the attempt to identify people who could be served by your product and explaining the product to them.  Now it is an attempt to convince as many people as possible to buy a product, regardless of whether or not your product will serve a need of theirs.

The pushiness of advertisers and shilling fanboys seems to increase with the mainstream acceptance of TTRPGs. Which makes sense if you think that you are going to make a lot of money with TTRPGs and you are trying to turn your hobby into a profession.

I'll use myself as an example to illustrate why Shadowdark might have broad appeal (or, at least, broader appeal than most OSR games, if nowhere near D&D's imperial status). I haven't played much in the last half decade or so, and am thinking of dipping back in. Long-time D&D player going back to the early 80s, have dabbled with other stuff over the years but always find myself back to dungeons, dragons, and icosahedrons. I really like just about everything I see from Free League, but mostly for inspiration and ideas.

I picked up the new Player's Handbook and it seems more of the same as 2014, but with a bit more of the "flair" people complain about here (though not quite as bad as I was expecting). But I tend to prefer "traditional" fantasy - not in love with fluffberries and dragonborn bards, but to each their own.  I'd also like something a bit simpler than WotC D&D.

Anyhow, part of the appeal of Shadowdark--aside from the physical product and the streamlined "neo-OSR" rules--is that it doesn't feed into the culture war BS on either side. Quite frankly, a lot of the beef I see for Shadowdark is coming from edgelordy righties who are pissed that the creator hasn't pledged her allegiance to their ideology. The suspicion seems to be that If she's not one of us, she's one of them. I mean, she's a woman! She looks vaguely leftish ...maybe? So that puts certain people off.

But from my brief browsing of her Youtube, she seems genuinely interested in, well, just making and playing a good game, without any particular political take or presumed cultural hauteur or stance. This seems to piss some people off, that is those that take an "us or them" mentality.

I think (or maybe hope) that there's a growing number of folks--of whatever political orientation or cultural disposition--that are just sick of the endless culture war bs, sick of "sideism," which ends up as distorted mirror images of each other. I mean, give it a rest. If you're on either side, quit feeding the fire and focus on playing games. There are other realms than WotC-style wokeism and pseudo-iconoclastic edgelordism.

In other words, getting back to basics, enjoying the play of imagination, rolling dice, going on quests, and killing things. From what I can tell without (yet) owning the book, Shadowdark seems designed with "us" folks in mind.  For me, right now it is vying with Dragonbane and maybe Forbidden Lands for the game I'll use if I dust off the dice.

Well, that's a fair point. That said, the number of RPGs that actually "feed into the culture war" from the right are very few.