TheRPGSite

I find myself forced to defend Shadowdark after Venger left the hobby with a bang. Also, new videos by WotC reveal the absolute state of the business, its staff, & the VTT!

It says "Video Unavailable" on this platform.

Really? It seems to be working for me. Anyways, can you not open it in youtube?

Upon re-reading Venger's blog post, he's not even close to blaming Shadowdark or her creator for his woes, what he's saying is that you need to make slick promotion campaigns to make that kind of money.

Hope that helps.

Venger's Blog post (https://vengersatanis.blogspot.com/2024/08/end-of-aeon.html)

Now, TBF in his twatter thread he does say that if you do have such a campaign you're leaving less money for the rest, which I think it's false, but he's still NOT blaming Shadowdark's author for his woes. He's lamenting the need for such campaigns.

Niche products such non-mainstream rpg products really do need all the marketing that they can get. I don't know how many products I didn't even know existed until I saw some video or another where someone was describing it and how useful it was to them. More visibility= more sales, its that simple.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on August 30, 2024, 01:59:13 PMNiche products such non-mainstream rpg products really do need all the marketing that they can get. I don't know how many products I didn't even know existed until I saw some video or another where someone was describing it and how useful it was to them. More visibility= more sales, its that simple.

1.- Build an audience, in the case of the rippaverse he spent years growing an audience.

2.- Find out what your audience really likes.

3.- Develop such a thing.

4.- Promote the hell out of it.

5.- If at all possible OVER DELIVER on your promises.

6.- Profit.

7.- Rinse & Repeat but include some promotion of your past products.

It's hard but if you want to make a living...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 30, 2024, 12:24:22 PMUpon re-reading Venger's blog post, he's not even close to blaming Shadowdark or her creator for his woes, what he's saying is that you need to make slick promotion campaigns to make that kind of money.

You certainly have to have something.

I occasionally have a few bucks to burn and go through Steam looking for a video game. I wind up spending hours going through the reccomended list and searching categories and find nothing to spend my money on. Theres
So
Much
Stuff
on there and all of it starts to look the same.

I think we have a similar situation with RPG material. ACKS, Fifth Frontier War, Star Trek Adventures, Knave, Fabula Ultima, Wierd Ancestries, Metro:Otherscape, Alien RPG, Dune RPG, Transformers RPG, The One Ring RPG, Cosmere RPG, Skyrm RPG, Curseborne, Diplomacy and Conflict, Entity, Solasta, Dwarrowdeep, DCC, MCC, Mork Borg,  etc, etc, etc, etc.

Somethings got to make a product stand out from the crowd for it to take off.

Black Lodge Game says it all:

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 30, 2024, 04:29:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 30, 2024, 12:24:22 PMUpon re-reading Venger's blog post, he's not even close to blaming Shadowdark or her creator for his woes, what he's saying is that you need to make slick promotion campaigns to make that kind of money.

You certainly have to have something.

I occasionally have a few bucks to burn and go through Steam looking for a video game. I wind up spending hours going through the reccomended list and searching categories and find nothing to spend my money on. Theres
So
Much
Stuff
on there and all of it starts to look the same.

I think we have a similar situation with RPG material. ACKS, Fifth Frontier War, Star Trek Adventures, Knave, Fabula Ultima, Wierd Ancestries, Metro:Otherscape, Alien RPG, Dune RPG, Transformers RPG, The One Ring RPG, Cosmere RPG, Skyrm RPG, Curseborne, Diplomacy and Conflict, Entity, Solasta, Dwarrowdeep, DCC, MCC, Mork Borg,  etc, etc, etc, etc.

Somethings got to make a product stand out from the crowd for it to take off.

As I clearly say right above your post.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 30, 2024, 04:29:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 30, 2024, 12:24:22 PMUpon re-reading Venger's blog post, he's not even close to blaming Shadowdark or her creator for his woes, what he's saying is that you need to make slick promotion campaigns to make that kind of money.

You certainly have to have something.

I occasionally have a few bucks to burn and go through Steam looking for a video game. I wind up spending hours going through the reccomended list and searching categories and find nothing to spend my money on. Theres
So
Much
Stuff
on there and all of it starts to look the same.

I think we have a similar situation with RPG material. ACKS, Fifth Frontier War, Star Trek Adventures, Knave, Fabula Ultima, Wierd Ancestries, Metro:Otherscape, Alien RPG, Dune RPG, Transformers RPG, The One Ring RPG, Cosmere RPG, Skyrm RPG, Curseborne, Diplomacy and Conflict, Entity, Solasta, Dwarrowdeep, DCC, MCC, Mork Borg,  etc, etc, etc, etc.

Somethings got to make a product stand out from the crowd for it to take off.

I think that there is an important distinction here though. A video game is more convenient to play than a tabletop RPG. Since most of us are adults who have to deal with Real Life, it takes a greater investment of time to get together with people for a RPG session (even if you are using a VTT online). It is because of this that many game consumers have to pick and choose which games they buy if they are going to ever play them. Yeah, you can buy a game to read it, but that is kind of missing the point (that games are meant to be played).

There are a lot of games out there on the market, many of them promoted by people on social media. How many of them are actually played? I'm betting that not as many RPG darlings are played that people think. Seriously, how many people do you think actually play Thirsty Sword Lesbians?

Quote from: Monero on August 30, 2024, 05:29:03 PMBlack Lodge Game says it all:

They sure do say it all, about how my name brings them so many extra views and hate-bucks from the typical gang of losers with Pundit Derangement that they are willing to pretend that I was the one attacking Shadowdark rather than openly defending it against the opinions of two of my friends (Venger and the Red Room).

I get it, they figured out that pundit haters will throw superchats at them if they lie about me. But I don't think they figured out that most of these guys are psychotics who are so unstable they managed to get banned from theRPGsite. It will only be a matter of time until their constant presence (because they will get obsessed with BLG now, just like once upon a time most of them started as obsessive fans rather than haters) will drive away or keep away what would have been greater numbers of other more normal fans, and then eventually turn on BLG themselves, over some tiny thing that they will see a profound betrayal of their fanboy obsession. Just like with the BroSR, pandering to fanatics for the sake of short term benefit tends to have long-term consequences.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 30, 2024, 12:24:22 PMwhat he's saying is that you need to make slick promotion campaigns to make that kind of money.

Thats been a known problem with Kickstarted for since at least 2010.

Oh, and speaking of obsessives, Monero is banned for sockpuppeting.

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 30, 2024, 05:55:03 PMOh, and speaking of obsessives, Monero is banned for sockpuppeting.

Was wondering how long that was going to take.....

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 30, 2024, 05:57:51 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 30, 2024, 05:55:03 PMOh, and speaking of obsessives, Monero is banned for sockpuppeting.

Was wondering how long that was going to take.....

So long Moronero, we hardly cared for you...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 30, 2024, 05:30:01 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 30, 2024, 04:29:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 30, 2024, 12:24:22 PMUpon re-reading Venger's blog post, he's not even close to blaming Shadowdark or her creator for his woes, what he's saying is that you need to make slick promotion campaigns to make that kind of money.

You certainly have to have something.

I occasionally have a few bucks to burn and go through Steam looking for a video game. I wind up spending hours going through the reccomended list and searching categories and find nothing to spend my money on. Theres
So
Much
Stuff
on there and all of it starts to look the same.

I think we have a similar situation with RPG material. ACKS, Fifth Frontier War, Star Trek Adventures, Knave, Fabula Ultima, Wierd Ancestries, Metro:Otherscape, Alien RPG, Dune RPG, Transformers RPG, The One Ring RPG, Cosmere RPG, Skyrm RPG, Curseborne, Diplomacy and Conflict, Entity, Solasta, Dwarrowdeep, DCC, MCC, Mork Borg,  etc, etc, etc, etc.

Somethings got to make a product stand out from the crowd for it to take off.

As I clearly say right above your post.

Even products that follow your list can get lost in the clamour. I think there's a certain amount of serendiptiy that goes in a product taking off.

I watched Shadowdark go from play test materials to what it is now.  I don't have strong opinions of it as a game system but I fully respect that Kelsey spent years developing it and marketing it until it finally paid off.  She used the KS as a marketing campaign primarily and she developed friendships with people who helped her get it into the public eye.  She also knew the audience she was going for and how to appeal to them.

Was any of her success due to her being a woman and her stuff being bought for woke points?  I think so but I don't think there's enough money for virtue purchases to account for the sales that Shadowdark has had.  What she did do was work very hard to develop mass appeal.

Venger OTOH, has cultivated an image of being an iconoclast and an edge lord, eschewing mainstream appeal.  He has seemed to almost resent the mass audience and I think that has hampered Cha'alt's growth.  It's sad to me because I can see Cha'alt running with the likes of Ultraviolet Grasslands and Barbarians of the Lost World.  I think Venger could use some help from an editor to get it dialed in but I love the Cha'alt stuff I have.  It would also need a big PR push to get it going as well but I think it could be done.

Quote from: BadApple on August 30, 2024, 07:54:22 PMWhat she did do was work very hard to develop mass appeal.

Well, yes, but that's a circular argument.  She got masses of people to buy her game by having mass appeal.  In the dictionary under "redundant" it says "see redundant..."

She did several things right.  First, she built a reputation by creating modules for an already existing game.  This gave her a reputation for quality as well as a little name recognition.  This is a very good strategy (at least when it comes to convincing your potential audience that they are going to get their money's worth).  Second, she produced a game that was pretty "familiar" (nothing exotic or outlandish, just a small iteration) and had one or two "innovations" (that were really just ideas collected).  It's always easier to sell people what they already like, just in new packaging.  Third, she made sure to cultivate a group of YouTubers to help shill her product, creating a circular economy (giving her press and them something to report on).

So, she definitely created a successful product.  Not a bad model if you are interested in creating a successful product.  If you are interested in creating a innovative of creative game, however...

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 30, 2024, 07:27:28 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 30, 2024, 05:30:01 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 30, 2024, 04:29:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 30, 2024, 12:24:22 PMUpon re-reading Venger's blog post, he's not even close to blaming Shadowdark or her creator for his woes, what he's saying is that you need to make slick promotion campaigns to make that kind of money.

You certainly have to have something.

I occasionally have a few bucks to burn and go through Steam looking for a video game. I wind up spending hours going through the reccomended list and searching categories and find nothing to spend my money on. Theres
So
Much
Stuff
on there and all of it starts to look the same.

I think we have a similar situation with RPG material. ACKS, Fifth Frontier War, Star Trek Adventures, Knave, Fabula Ultima, Wierd Ancestries, Metro:Otherscape, Alien RPG, Dune RPG, Transformers RPG, The One Ring RPG, Cosmere RPG, Skyrm RPG, Curseborne, Diplomacy and Conflict, Entity, Solasta, Dwarrowdeep, DCC, MCC, Mork Borg,  etc, etc, etc, etc.

Somethings got to make a product stand out from the crowd for it to take off.

As I clearly say right above your post.

Even products that follow your list can get lost in the clamour. I think there's a certain amount of serendiptiy that goes in a product taking off.

IMHO what we need is a marketing team, not a corporatized one but multiple voices able and willing to promote good stuff.

As soon as I learn how to have a guest in a livestream (it used to be really simple) I'm starting a weekly podcast to help in such efforts, but I'll need at least one co-host.

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 30, 2024, 05:43:53 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on August 30, 2024, 04:29:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on August 30, 2024, 12:24:22 PMUpon re-reading Venger's blog post, he's not even close to blaming Shadowdark or her creator for his woes, what he's saying is that you need to make slick promotion campaigns to make that kind of money.

You certainly have to have something.

I occasionally have a few bucks to burn and go through Steam looking for a video game. I wind up spending hours going through the reccomended list and searching categories and find nothing to spend my money on. Theres
So
Much
Stuff
on there and all of it starts to look the same.

I think we have a similar situation with RPG material. ACKS, Fifth Frontier War, Star Trek Adventures, Knave, Fabula Ultima, Wierd Ancestries, Metro:Otherscape, Alien RPG, Dune RPG, Transformers RPG, The One Ring RPG, Cosmere RPG, Skyrm RPG, Curseborne, Diplomacy and Conflict, Entity, Solasta, Dwarrowdeep, DCC, MCC, Mork Borg,  etc, etc, etc, etc.

Somethings got to make a product stand out from the crowd for it to take off.

I think that there is an important distinction here though. A video game is more convenient to play than a tabletop RPG. Since most of us are adults who have to deal with Real Life, it takes a greater investment of time to get together with people for a RPG session (even if you are using a VTT online). It is because of this that many game consumers have to pick and choose which games they buy if they are going to ever play them. Yeah, you can buy a game to read it, but that is kind of missing the point (that games are meant to be played).

There are a lot of games out there on the market, many of them promoted by people on social media. How many of them are actually played? I'm betting that not as many RPG darlings are played that people think. Seriously, how many people do you think actually play Thirsty Sword Lesbians?

Would you really want to see people play, Thirsty Sword Lesbians?  Perhaps a LARP?

I for one, would rather not.....


Back to Shadowdark: no one should be jealous, of her success.  She found a way to make it.  She was a guest for years, on the same channels that later highlighted her breakout RPG.  She figured out networking.  I don't own a copy myself, but she made lots of people want it.

Quote from: BadApple on August 30, 2024, 07:54:22 PMI watched Shadowdark go from play test materials to what it is now.  I don't have strong opinions of it as a game system but I fully respect that Kelsey spent years developing it and marketing it until it finally paid off.  She used the KS as a marketing campaign primarily and she developed friendships with people who helped her get it into the public eye.  She also knew the audience she was going for and how to appeal to them.

Was any of her success due to her being a woman and her stuff being bought for woke points?  I think so but I don't think there's enough money for virtue purchases to account for the sales that Shadowdark has had.  What she did do was work very hard to develop mass appeal.

Venger OTOH, has cultivated an image of being an iconoclast and an edge lord, eschewing mainstream appeal.  He has seemed to almost resent the mass audience and I think that has hampered Cha'alt's growth.  It's sad to me because I can see Cha'alt running with the likes of Ultraviolet Grasslands and Barbarians of the Lost World.  I think Venger could use some help from an editor to get it dialed in but I love the Cha'alt stuff I have.  It would also need a big PR push to get it going as well but I think it could be done.

Her game has quite a bit of problems, but its easy to fix.  She did get good art and a slid well put together and edited book, so its easy to fix.  Create your own racial bonuses and races and its not too bad.  The table in the book can be used for other games as well.  I would say Castles and Crusades are significantly better.

Quote from: Man at Arms on August 30, 2024, 11:45:18 PMCreate your own racial bonuses and races and its not too bad.

I prefer the simple SD races. Makes it much easier to add new ones. I definitely don't want racial ("ancestry") stat mods.

It occurred to me yesterday that a point in Shadowdark's favor is that it has the potential to be a serious market competitor to OSE. It occupies the same niche of a vanilla OSR game for people who just want simplified D&D without any particular quirks or flavoring. Whether or not OSE turns out to be going woke, it's got a little too much market dominance in the OSR for my taste.

It's not really vanilla in the sense of being another BX clone, it definitely leans a bit more to the grim dark tone. No raise dead magic, for a start.

I don't like Shadowdark's fans, primarily, but the game itself and the author are fine. People get extremely defensive at any criticism and assume there's this massive movement of gamergate people sending death threats to the author or something. If you say that it's unoriginal and that it sold mainly based on presentation and marketing, they flip out and accuse you of jealousy or some kind of political ideology.

The Black Lodge guys are so pathetic it's hilarious. They want to be edgy and right wing but they're also desperate to be accepted by normies and to be seen as belonging to the cool kids. They're constantly lecturing their audience about how they need to stop being nerds, and they need to recruit new people into the hobby from all their "normal" friends. A lot of their advice sucks. They have this weird simping thing going on with at least one female youtuber. I can just tell they're going to have a scandal at some point and get cancelled by the people they're trying to impress so much. Their first big kickstarter adventure thing they're selling is a gross brothel.

Quote from: S'mon on August 31, 2024, 10:10:27 AMIt's not really vanilla in the sense of being another BX clone, it definitely leans a bit more to the grim dark tone. No raise dead magic, for a start.

Ok, so I'm not trying to restart the argument here about whether Shadowdark is too similar other games. I'm trying to look at this from a broad market perspective. Let me try to clarify:

Imagine you're John Q. Roleplayer. You're into RPGs. You buy a few; you play more. You probably play both OSR games and non-OSR ones. You watch enough YouTube to know what's out there, but you don't hang out on forums or reddit or RPG Twitter. You don't have your own BX homebrew heartbreaker. You buy a game and play that game. I want to stress that there are a lot of people like this out there.

Now imagine that you, John Q. Roleplayer, are looking to either start or join a game. You don't want a wacky setting; you don't want to learn a bunch of new rules. You want to have some simple fantasy dungeon adventures with your mates, just like grandad used to make them. OSE and Shadowdark are both going to do that job about as well as each other. Frankly, lots of OSR games will. I'll bet anyone here can name 10 of them off the top of their head. Looking at the game books in a vacuum, choosing between them is down to presentation and relatively minor rules differences.  That's what I mean by "vanilla OSR".

As things stand today, if you want it to be easy to find games to join or players for your own game, then the smart choice is OSE. It's got little to no controversy, one of the easiest rulesets, and the largest number of active games. My point was that if Shadowdark keeps building momentum, it might end up being an equally viable choice for those criteria. Whether or not it will remains to be seen. We probably won't know if it has that kind of legs for another 3-5 years.

Edit: I realize that comment is way too wordy and could come off as patronizing. I don't mean it that way. I just talk like an elderly Victorian college lecturer sometimes.

All I'm trying to say is OSE has an outsized market share in the OSR, and I wouldn't mind if Shadowdark can successfully challenge that.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 30, 2024, 08:17:09 PMShe did several things right.  First, she built a reputation by creating modules for an already existing game.  This gave her a reputation for quality as well as a little name recognition.  This is a very good strategy (at least when it comes to convincing your potential audience that they are going to get their money's worth). 

Quite a few successful games were successes only because the people behind the product had a track record of producing something worth spending on. Sometimes years building a rep.

Others seem to garner attention from the glitz, when theres actually no substance. Seen this a few times. Back when I was on BGG there was one guy who people fawned all the fuck over for his games. But there was never once an actual game. Just some board art and talk OF a game.

And a depressing number of designers build up a good rep and following. Then take the money and run when they make the big KS. Or fail to deliver in some way. Seen a few of those.

Haven't played Shadowdark yet but I'm looking forward to it.  I've been listening to Sly Flourish and it sounds like a fun mash up of 5e, old school, and Paranoia.  The last mostly in the sense that your characters die a lot not in the Paranoia sense.  "Who cares about story, we're all 3 characters in on this quest so no one knows why we're here anymore."

The creator basically followed the usual business methods of building a business but did it in a niche hobby populated by hobbyists.  Shocking!

Honestly this game looks miles better and was way cheaper than the Stormlight KS I just backed.

Quote from: KingCheops on August 31, 2024, 06:55:10 PMHaven't played Shadowdark yet but I'm looking forward to it.  I've been listening to Sly Flourish and it sounds like a fun mash up of 5e, old school, and Paranoia.  The last mostly in the sense that your characters die a lot not in the Paranoia sense.  "Who cares about story, we're all 3 characters in on this quest so no one knows why we're here anymore."

The creator basically followed the usual business methods of building a business but did it in a niche hobby populated by hobbyists.  Shocking!

Honestly this game looks miles better and was way cheaper than the Stormlight KS I just backed.

If you're talking about the 0 level characters dying in a funnel, that's directly from Dungeon Crawl Classics.

Greetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was. Most fans of ShadowDark also have not claimed that the game is some kind of Tyrannosaurus Rex in "Innovation."

What IS INNOVATIVE about ShadowDark is the precision in which Kelsey has taken inspiration from other games--like the "Funnel" and crazy magic from DCC, elements of BX, AD&D, and 5E, and blended them all together, and then presented her creation in a very professional, appealing manner.

And also accompanied her work with awesome, "Old School" black & white artwork. NOT Jenny Craig fat fucking Elves, "Mexican Orcs", or gay fucking Dwarves baking pastries while trying to engage in a circle jerk.

None of that BS. Just awesome, inspiring, sword & sorcery artwork.

And not a word of fucking "Culture War" politics. Not in ShadowDark, and not outside the game in any interviews that Kelsey has participated in.

Besides all that, I *LIKE* how she has carefully selected and blended great ideas and concepts from other games, while leaving those games' baggage, awkward mechanics, and BS behind. I don't give a fuck about DCC's weird dice, and my patience for endless charts embraced by DCC is a thing in my rear-view mirror like Rolemaster. No thanks. Kelsey has taken what is good, and made it BETTER. THAT is what is "Innovative" and fun, and special about ShadowDark. All the while, ruthlessly keeping the ShadowDark game focused on being quick, simple, and brutal.

I wish the ShadowDark haters would get these concepts rammed like a fucking brick through their fucking heads, and stopped opening their mouth with baseless, stupid criticisms and BS claims about the game that they clearly do not comprehend. Most of them DON'T PLAY ShadowDark--and most of them also don't own the fucking book, either.

The ShadowDark book is also an absolute pleasure to read. You won't need a degree in Forgotten Realms Studies to know what is going on. Furthermore, the ShadowDark book is crafted--yes, CRAFTED--in material, style, layout, and font size, readability, to be USED AT THE GAME TABLE. Running ShadowDark is a blast! Running a ShadowDark game is simple, fun, and intuitive.

Anyone on the fence should dive in. It is a fantastic game!

Those just not interested, for whatever reason, cool. YOU DO YOU.

The ShadowDark haters should just get fucked and get a fucking life.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2024, 10:33:05 PMGreetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was.

That's how the publisher is selling it.

What Is Shadowdark RPG?

Shadowdark is what an old-school fantasy adventure game would look like after being redesigned with 50 years of innovation.

They are trying to present this as some big innovation and it's not.   

I regret not joining the Shadowdark Kickstarter. I can see the arguments on both sides, but what's very clear is the author did her work most bigly - both in game design and marketing.

Kudos to her.

Double kudos for somehow staying out of the culture war.

As for innovation, I'm an OSR guy so I'm less impressed with "new ideas" versus "proven ideas that enhance actual play"

Looking forward to trying out Shadowdark at the table.

BTW, I also see the appeal of OSE. I too love B/X and clean modern layouts will definitely garner attention.

Quote from: yosemitemike on September 01, 2024, 01:25:17 AM

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2024, 10:33:05 PMGreetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was.

That's how the publisher is selling it.

What Is Shadowdark RPG?

Shadowdark is what an old-school fantasy adventure game would look like after being redesigned with 50 years of innovation.

They are trying to present this as some big innovation and it's not. 

That's not what that sentence is saying.  That sentence is referring to innovation that has been introduced to D&D since 1974.  Such as ascending armor class.  That sentence is not saying that Shadowdark is introducing new innovative concepts that nobody has seen until 2024.

Quote from: Spinachcat on September 01, 2024, 01:53:59 AMDouble kudos for somehow staying out of the culture war.

A big plus.

All of this yappin seems like picking at nits to me. Is the game good? Are people having fun playing it? Has the writer/publisher/artist managed to not murder a bus full of orphans? Then I'm pretty good with it.

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2024, 10:33:05 PMGreetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was. Most fans of ShadowDark also have not claimed that the game is some kind of Tyrannosaurus Rex in "Innovation."

What IS INNOVATIVE about ShadowDark is the precision in which Kelsey has taken inspiration from other games--like the "Funnel" and crazy magic from DCC, elements of BX, AD&D, and 5E, and blended them all together, and then presented her creation in a very professional, appealing manner.

And also accompanied her work with awesome, "Old School" black & white artwork. NOT Jenny Craig fat fucking Elves, "Mexican Orcs", or gay fucking Dwarves baking pastries while trying to engage in a circle jerk.

None of that BS. Just awesome, inspiring, sword & sorcery artwork.

And not a word of fucking "Culture War" politics. Not in ShadowDark, and not outside the game in any interviews that Kelsey has participated in.

Besides all that, I *LIKE* how she has carefully selected and blended great ideas and concepts from other games, while leaving those games' baggage, awkward mechanics, and BS behind. I don't give a fuck about DCC's weird dice, and my patience for endless charts embraced by DCC is a thing in my rear-view mirror like Rolemaster. No thanks. Kelsey has taken what is good, and made it BETTER. THAT is what is "Innovative" and fun, and special about ShadowDark. All the while, ruthlessly keeping the ShadowDark game focused on being quick, simple, and brutal.

I wish the ShadowDark haters would get these concepts rammed like a fucking brick through their fucking heads, and stopped opening their mouth with baseless, stupid criticisms and BS claims about the game that they clearly do not comprehend. Most of them DON'T PLAY ShadowDark--and most of them also don't own the fucking book, either.

The ShadowDark book is also an absolute pleasure to read. You won't need a degree in Forgotten Realms Studies to know what is going on. Furthermore, the ShadowDark book is crafted--yes, CRAFTED--in material, style, layout, and font size, readability, to be USED AT THE GAME TABLE. Running ShadowDark is a blast! Running a ShadowDark game is simple, fun, and intuitive.

Anyone on the fence should dive in. It is a fantastic game!

Those just not interested, for whatever reason, cool. YOU DO YOU.

The ShadowDark haters should just get fucked and get a fucking life.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

SHARK nails it as usual. For me SD is a great streamlined version of 5e D&D, with a ton of good ideas from the OSR presented very effectively, & immaculate design & layout. It's a pleasure to run. & no Woke politics!

Quote from: yosemitemike on September 01, 2024, 01:25:17 AMShadowdark is what an old-school fantasy adventure game would look like after being redesigned with 50 years of innovation.

That's entirely accurate IMO.

Quote from: Spinachcat on September 01, 2024, 01:53:59 AMBTW, I also see the appeal of OSE. I too love B/X and clean modern layouts will definitely garner attention.

I love B/X too, but running a BECMI campaign for a few years recently I really got to hate looking up the Saving Throw tables.

Quote from: Spobo on August 31, 2024, 12:24:29 PMI don't like Shadowdark's fans, primarily, but the game itself and the author are fine.

It has left wing fans, who ofc are annoying, and right wing fans (the Best of Men). Some OSR Taleban (who tend to be more right wingers) have reflexively attacked it for IMO stupid & innaccurate reasons. I initially thought maybe the hype might be left-wing/Politically Correct shilling (See the Lesbian Game Designer! Bow before her Majesty, ye Chuds!), but no, it was very clear from studying the free Quickstart guides that it was an excellently designed game. It helped that my friend Upper_Krust (who makes me look like a Commie Pinko Liberal) had already gone over it, & recommended it to me.

OSR retroclones are interesting to me, but definitely secondary on my list of gaming needs. I've already got and am satisfied with Basic Fantasy, Advanced Labyrinth Lord, and Old School Essentials. I don't feel like paying $60 for a book that is of dubious utility to me like Shadowdark. That there is controversy surrounding it just reinforces my disinterest.

To me, Shadowdark looks like Mothership and Mork Borg, internet darlings that do not give me as a gamer anything new or useful for the time & money investment it would take to acquire and find a use for. If you just collect games and don't play them, I can understand wanting to get the Latest Hotness - I'm just not the target consumer audience.

 

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2024, 07:19:22 AMOSR retroclones are interesting to me, but definitely secondary on my list of gaming needs. I've already got and am satisfied with Basic Fantasy, Advanced Labyrinth Lord, and Old School Essentials. I don't feel like paying $60 for a book that is of dubious utility to me like Shadowdark. That there is controversy surrounding it just reinforces my disinterest.

To me, Shadowdark looks like Mothership and Mork Borg, internet darlings that do not give me as a gamer anything new or useful for the time & money investment it would take to acquire and find a use for. If you just collect games and don't play them, I can understand wanting to get the Latest Hotness - I'm just not the target consumer audience.

 

Have you looked at the free Quickstarts? It's not a retro-clone, although it superficially looks like one until you read it. It may well not be your cup of tea, it most resembles the 2014 5e Basic Rules heavily drifted.

Quote from: S'mon on September 01, 2024, 07:36:48 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2024, 07:19:22 AMOSR retroclones are interesting to me, but definitely secondary on my list of gaming needs. I've already got and am satisfied with Basic Fantasy, Advanced Labyrinth Lord, and Old School Essentials. I don't feel like paying $60 for a book that is of dubious utility to me like Shadowdark. That there is controversy surrounding it just reinforces my disinterest.

To me, Shadowdark looks like Mothership and Mork Borg, internet darlings that do not give me as a gamer anything new or useful for the time & money investment it would take to acquire and find a use for. If you just collect games and don't play them, I can understand wanting to get the Latest Hotness - I'm just not the target consumer audience.

 

Have you looked at the free Quickstarts? It's not a retro-clone, although it superficially looks like one until you read it. It may well not be your cup of tea, it most resembles the 2014 5e Basic Rules heavily drifted.

After the 5E playtest, I'm really not interested in the playstyle that 5E creates (the long rest, short rest mechanic doesn't do it for me). So, no I have not. I just have no interest, even negative interest now that there is some controversy about the like or dislike of this game.

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2024, 10:33:05 PMGreetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was. Most fans of ShadowDark also have not claimed that the game is some kind of Tyrannosaurus Rex in "Innovation."

What IS INNOVATIVE about ShadowDark is the precision in which Kelsey has taken inspiration from other games--like the "Funnel" and crazy magic from DCC, elements of BX, AD&D, and 5E, and blended them all together, and then presented her creation in a very professional, appealing manner.

And also accompanied her work with awesome, "Old School" black & white artwork. NOT Jenny Craig fat fucking Elves, "Mexican Orcs", or gay fucking Dwarves baking pastries while trying to engage in a circle jerk.

None of that BS. Just awesome, inspiring, sword & sorcery artwork.

And not a word of fucking "Culture War" politics. Not in ShadowDark, and not outside the game in any interviews that Kelsey has participated in.

Besides all that, I *LIKE* how she has carefully selected and blended great ideas and concepts from other games, while leaving those games' baggage, awkward mechanics, and BS behind. I don't give a fuck about DCC's weird dice, and my patience for endless charts embraced by DCC is a thing in my rear-view mirror like Rolemaster. No thanks. Kelsey has taken what is good, and made it BETTER. THAT is what is "Innovative" and fun, and special about ShadowDark. All the while, ruthlessly keeping the ShadowDark game focused on being quick, simple, and brutal.

I wish the ShadowDark haters would get these concepts rammed like a fucking brick through their fucking heads, and stopped opening their mouth with baseless, stupid criticisms and BS claims about the game that they clearly do not comprehend. Most of them DON'T PLAY ShadowDark--and most of them also don't own the fucking book, either.

The ShadowDark book is also an absolute pleasure to read. You won't need a degree in Forgotten Realms Studies to know what is going on. Furthermore, the ShadowDark book is crafted--yes, CRAFTED--in material, style, layout, and font size, readability, to be USED AT THE GAME TABLE. Running ShadowDark is a blast! Running a ShadowDark game is simple, fun, and intuitive.

Anyone on the fence should dive in. It is a fantastic game!

Those just not interested, for whatever reason, cool. YOU DO YOU.

The ShadowDark haters should just get fucked and get a fucking life.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I love how ridiculously defensive people get over it. This is what I'm talking about.

"Most fans of ShadowDark also have not claimed that the game is some kind of Tyrannosaurus Rex in "Innovation.""

They sometimes do. Usually it's indirectly by leaving out information. The core demographic is 5e players who haven't played anything else, and it gets presented alongside Pathfinder 2e, DC20, and MCDM as exit points for people after the OGL scandal. That was a huge reason why it became so popular and the author herself says this. That's fine. There is no problem with this. However, very few people do the minimum effort of explaining that the game came out of the OSR movement, so it comes across that they think that this is the first old school game and possibly even the first rules light game.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF9uz3GNORU

Dungeon Masterpiece, like most D&D channels, is aimed at 5e players. In the video he has a bunch of stuff he says that make Shadowdark successful like random tables, a focus on dungeon crawling and lighting, and a unified mechanic for older editions, and he says that this makes it stand out "against all other RPGs on the market" with the 2024 PHB on screen. Obviously that's not true. If you're someone who knows what they're talking about, you could have been playing with all the mechanics in Shadowdark for the last 5-20 years depending on what it is, including in games where a lot or most of them were collected together. Almost all recent OSR games incorporate 5e advantage/disadvantage and other mechanics. Yes, we know about the presentation. The presentation, the presentation, the layout, the layout, we know. It's really good. That's not the point. I'm just talking about the rules and what people say about them.

Back to the example, he says he likes DCC in some of his comments on other videos, but he doesn't have a video about it. He has an OSR video where he somewhat disparagingly compares the whole movement to carrot cake. There are people like Questing Beast who cover OSR games all the time, but that's not who I'm talking about, and from what I have seen and read, they're not representative of the general hype machine around the game.

It's like when someone tells a joke, then someone else tells it louder and gets the laughs. When you point this out the defenders just keep repeating "But they told it louder though! You have to speak up! You're just jealous and hate success!" That may be true for some people, but that isn't the only problem when the party thinks that they came up with it.

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2024, 10:33:05 PMGreetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was. Most fans of ShadowDark also have not claimed that the game is some kind of Tyrannosaurus Rex in "Innovation."

What IS INNOVATIVE about ShadowDark is the precision in which Kelsey has taken inspiration from other games--like the "Funnel" and crazy magic from DCC, elements of BX, AD&D, and 5E, and blended them all together, and then presented her creation in a very professional, appealing manner.

And also accompanied her work with awesome, "Old School" black & white artwork. NOT Jenny Craig fat fucking Elves, "Mexican Orcs", or gay fucking Dwarves baking pastries while trying to engage in a circle jerk.

None of that BS. Just awesome, inspiring, sword & sorcery artwork.

And not a word of fucking "Culture War" politics. Not in ShadowDark, and not outside the game in any interviews that Kelsey has participated in.

Besides all that, I *LIKE* how she has carefully selected and blended great ideas and concepts from other games, while leaving those games' baggage, awkward mechanics, and BS behind. I don't give a fuck about DCC's weird dice, and my patience for endless charts embraced by DCC is a thing in my rear-view mirror like Rolemaster. No thanks. Kelsey has taken what is good, and made it BETTER. THAT is what is "Innovative" and fun, and special about ShadowDark. All the while, ruthlessly keeping the ShadowDark game focused on being quick, simple, and brutal.

I wish the ShadowDark haters would get these concepts rammed like a fucking brick through their fucking heads, and stopped opening their mouth with baseless, stupid criticisms and BS claims about the game that they clearly do not comprehend. Most of them DON'T PLAY ShadowDark--and most of them also don't own the fucking book, either.

The ShadowDark book is also an absolute pleasure to read. You won't need a degree in Forgotten Realms Studies to know what is going on. Furthermore, the ShadowDark book is crafted--yes, CRAFTED--in material, style, layout, and font size, readability, to be USED AT THE GAME TABLE. Running ShadowDark is a blast! Running a ShadowDark game is simple, fun, and intuitive.

Anyone on the fence should dive in. It is a fantastic game!

Those just not interested, for whatever reason, cool. YOU DO YOU.

The ShadowDark haters should just get fucked and get a fucking life.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Not having to roll a d7, is definitely A plus.  That thing is a dud, in the history of dice.

Shadowdark definitely "stands on the shoulders of giants" - both the OSR and 5e were needed to make it possible.

My one player who dislikes it is the 4e fan and heavy charopper. She was pissed her PC died today.

Re rests @Jeff it has no short rests but has full recovery on an 8 hour long rest, the 5e DNA is pretty obvious. Also has bounded accuracy, advantage etc

Quote from: S'mon on September 01, 2024, 02:39:32 PMRe rests @Jeff it has no short rests but has full recovery on an 8 hour long rest, the 5e DNA is pretty obvious. Also has bounded accuracy, advantage etc

S'mon, I think that you are a great guy, but you are demonstrating a behavior that turns me off of a game system. The pushiness of fans of the system to play it. I had my fill of that with 4E, 5E, and WotC Organized Play because I was branded a homophobic racist locally since those versions of D&D don't interest me and I was uninterested in playing. Sorry, but everything that you have said that you find good about the game, I associate with wokeness and cancel culture.

Granted, that's my hangup, but with several of the internet darlings out now (Mothership and Mork Borg), I can achieve the same level of play enjoyment without spending money on stylish artistic crap or gameplay one trick ponies. Shadowdark is a current hotness, but the price of it is equal to my monthly cell phone bill.

Personally I think the best way to think about Shadowdark is not that it is innovative in that it is full of new mechanics as that simply isn't the case. What is innovative is what mechanics are included, kind of like a new recipe made from familiar ingredients. Tastes good but none of the ingredients are new, just how they are blended.

I'm on the Shadowdark Discord, and most of the folks seem ok though typically there are some leftist twots. Kelsey herself doesn't get involved in political stuff and one of the rules of the Discord is:

"No politics, real or implied. All alignments are true neutral while in here."

Which is pretty reasonable given how some operate.

Regarding to the marketing, Kelsey is married, and her wife (yes she does get a free pass from some for being a lesbian) works in marketing which goes a long way into explaining why the campaign was so successful, a point I think missed by most.

As for Kelsey herself, she says she likes humancentric S&S style play, and that her favourite Conan story is Red Nails, which is mine also, so that goes in her favour.

Yes the players can be rabid in defending her/Shadowdark, and I'm sure there is plenty of white knighting going on, but I think most of the conflict comes from differing interpretations of Shadowdark's 'innovation' as noted in my first paragraph.

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 02, 2024, 05:09:22 AM

Quote from: S'mon on September 01, 2024, 02:39:32 PMRe rests @Jeff it has no short rests but has full recovery on an 8 hour long rest, the 5e DNA is pretty obvious. Also has bounded accuracy, advantage etc

S'mon, I think that you are a great guy, but you are demonstrating a behavior that turns me off of a game system. The pushiness of fans of the system to play it. I had my fill of that with 4E, 5E, and WotC Organized Play because I was branded a homophobic racist locally since those versions of D&D don't interest me and I was uninterested in playing. Sorry, but everything that you have said that you find good about the game, I associate with wokeness and cancel culture.

Granted, that's my hangup, but with several of the internet darlings out now (Mothership and Mork Borg), I can achieve the same level of play enjoyment without spending money on stylish artistic crap or gameplay one trick ponies. Shadowdark is a current hotness, but the price of it is equal to my monthly cell phone bill.

What the Fuck? All I did was tell you it doesn't have Short Rests, since you thought it did. I'm not trying to push it on you. Please fuck off now.

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMI'm on the Shadowdark Discord, and most of the folks seem ok though typically there are some leftist twots. Kelsey herself doesn't get involved in political stuff and one of the rules of the Discord is:

"No politics, real or implied. All alignments are true neutral while in here."

Yeah. I've seen this determinedly non-political stance bring out the twats on both sides. I think it's great to get away from shitty US politics and just play not-D&D. https://x.com/simontmn1/status/1830193591563481579 - my comment criticising some leftist twat for saying Kelsey was "Pro BrOSR",  and saying "One thing I love about Shadowdark is the creator does not do politics" was Liked by both Kelsey Dionne & Harmony Ginger.

Shadowdark is a very well designed game, but one reason I'm playing it and not 5e D&D is to not have Leftist political shit shoved down my throat by Wizards of the Coast. 

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMAs for Kelsey herself, she says she likes humancentric S&S style play, and that her favourite Conan story is Red Nails

I noticed that the game seems very well suited to this play style, and I'm planning to use it with the Midlands (of Argosa) S&S setting written for Low Fantasy Gaming (which is a bit more complex than SD, more of a C&C type feel to me). Some people don't like how SD de-emphasises the importance of Race/Ancestry and want racial attribute mods, I guess they could be houseruled in but I like it how it is.

Edit: The one thing missing for S&S play though is the complete lack of brothels and prostitutes in the otherwise-excellent urban encounter tables. I suspect this was a deliberate design choice and it does mirror Mentzer D&D's child-friendly approach. In this case I suspect it was more to be Woke-friendly, but it fits with eg a more Tolkienesque type setting too.

Quote from: S'mon on September 02, 2024, 07:15:35 AM

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMAs for Kelsey herself, she says she likes humancentric S&S style play, and that her favourite Conan story is Red Nails

I noticed that the game seems very well suited to this play style, and I'm planning to use it with the Midlands (of Argosa) S&S setting written for Low Fantasy Gaming (which is a bit more complex than SD, more of a C&C type feel to me). Some people don't like how SD de-emphasises the importance of Race/Ancestry and want racial attribute mods, I guess they could be houseruled in but I like it how it is.

Edit: The one thing missing for S&S play though is the complete lack of brothels and prostitutes in the otherwise-excellent urban encounter tables. I suspect this was a deliberate design choice and it does mirror Mentzer D&D's child-friendly approach. In this case I suspect it was more to be Woke-friendly, but it fits with eg a more Tolkienesque type setting too.

It is definitely not 18 rated, but you may be interested in: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003133567/the-shucked-oyster-a-cursed-brothel-for-shadowdark-rpg for all your brothel an prostitute needs (didn't think I'd type that sentence into an RPG thread).

As regards S&S Shadowdark, you might be interested in this thread (unfortunately on ENWorld) started by Morten Braten of World of Xoth Fame: https://www.enworld.org/threads/quick-tip-using-shadowdark-rpg-for-sword-sorcery-gaming.704920/

Quote from: Spinachcat on September 01, 2024, 01:53:59 AMI regret not joining the Shadowdark Kickstarter. I can see the arguments on both sides, but what's very clear is the author did her work most bigly - both in game design and marketing.

Kudos to her.

Double kudos for somehow staying out of the culture war.

As for innovation, I'm an OSR guy so I'm less impressed with "new ideas" versus "proven ideas that enhance actual play"

Looking forward to trying out Shadowdark at the table.

BTW, I also see the appeal of OSE. I too love B/X and clean modern layouts will definitely garner attention.

Greetings!

Right, right, brother! I'm not terribly interested in "New Ideas" either. I much prefer tried and true mechanics and systems. Fuck being "New". Most of the new stuff is absolute garbage. Dice pools, weird game cards, widgets and stuffed animals, and weird dice. It is so often claimed to be awesome, but in reality, simply is over complicated and stupid.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Crusader X on September 01, 2024, 04:37:01 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on September 01, 2024, 01:25:17 AM

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2024, 10:33:05 PMGreetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was.

That's how the publisher is selling it.

What Is Shadowdark RPG?

Shadowdark is what an old-school fantasy adventure game would look like after being redesigned with 50 years of innovation.

They are trying to present this as some big innovation and it's not. 

That's not what that sentence is saying.  That sentence is referring to innovation that has been introduced to D&D since 1974.  Such as ascending armor class.  That sentence is not saying that Shadowdark is introducing new innovative concepts that nobody has seen until 2024.

Greetings!

Exactly, Crusader X! Thank you, my friend!

I don't understand why the ShadowDark haters cannot seem to comprehend this concept.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 09:16:08 AMIt is definitely not 18 rated, but you may be interested in: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1003133567/the-shucked-oyster-a-cursed-brothel-for-shadowdark-rpg for all your brothel an prostitute needs (didn't think I'd type that sentence into an RPG thread).

As regards S&S Shadowdark, you might be interested in this thread (unfortunately on ENWorld) started by Morten Braten of World of Xoth Fame: https://www.enworld.org/threads/quick-tip-using-shadowdark-rpg-for-sword-sorcery-gaming.704920/

Thanks, but pretty sure I can handle the prostitutes myself :D
I just posted on that Xoth thread this morning!

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMRegarding to the marketing, Kelsey is married, and her wife (yes she does get a free pass from some for being a lesbian) works in marketing which goes a long way into explaining why the campaign was so successful, a point I think missed by most.

I don't think it's missed at all.  I think this is part of the instinctive reaction a lot of people have against Shadowdark.  When many of the Youtube reviews (by folks who either know or have worked with Kelsey) sound like infomercials, many viewers will have a learned reaction based on the way that modern marketing works.  Think about the way you generally respond to TV infomercials.  I've seen several products on TV that someone I know has bought; a few of them are very good products, but the majority are very flawed at the best.  When you get that same vibe from the marketing for an RPG, people can be forgiven for having a natural reaction of skepticism.  Especially when so much of the marketing is telling you how much you need this game, and how innovative it is... sounds just like something I'd hear on a TV infomercial.  Watch the Baron DeRopp video linked earlier in the thread.  It gushes over the illustrations, the organization, the brevity of the spell descriptions and the rules.  Is that really a selling point?  It slices, it dices, it makes Julian fries!  I actually think, as much as the marketing helped make the game successful with 5e converts and relative newbies to RPGs, it hurt with some segments of the hobby that have seen these marketing pitches before.

None of this has anything to do with how good the game actually is.  I know some people like it a lot.  My group is a bit more of an optimizer group, and Shadowdark's lack of character options turned them off quickly (I'm a bit more of a rules-lite person myself).  I don't begrudge anyone else's fun.  But I do begrudge other people telling me how I am allowed to react to marketing...

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMRegarding to the marketing, Kelsey is married, and her wife (yes she does get a free pass from some for being a lesbian) works in marketing which goes a long way into explaining why the campaign was so successful, a point I think missed by most.

She made a poor choice in partners. I fucking loathe marketing and advertising, and have a revulsion towards anyone involved in that hideous process.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 02, 2024, 08:29:32 PM

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMRegarding to the marketing, Kelsey is married, and her wife (yes she does get a free pass from some for being a lesbian) works in marketing which goes a long way into explaining why the campaign was so successful, a point I think missed by most.

She made a poor choice in partners. I fucking loathe marketing and advertising, and have a revulsion towards anyone involved in that hideous process.

Marketing used to be the attempt to identify people who could be served by your product and explaining the product to them.  Now it is an attempt to convince as many people as possible to buy a product, regardless of whether or not your product will serve a need of theirs.

I'm reminded of a story I was told by a professor in a class back in college.  When the first home telephones were developed, there was one rep in California that was doing triple the sales of everyone else.  When he was called in, the bosses asked him how he sold the phones so well.  He said, "I just told the housewives that they could talk to their neighbors without having to get dressed up" (This was in a time where most people would get dressed up formally, undergarments, outer-garments, make-up, etc.,  just to go to a neighbor's to gossip with them or ask to borrow a pat of butter).  That guy understood the utility of his product.  That's good marketing.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 02, 2024, 06:12:15 PM

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMRegarding to the marketing, Kelsey is married, and her wife (yes she does get a free pass from some for being a lesbian) works in marketing which goes a long way into explaining why the campaign was so successful, a point I think missed by most.

I don't think it's missed at all.  I think this is part of the instinctive reaction a lot of people have against Shadowdark.  When many of the Youtube reviews (by folks who either know or have worked with Kelsey) sound like infomercials, many viewers will have a learned reaction based on the way that modern marketing works.  Think about the way you generally respond to TV infomercials.  I've seen several products on TV that someone I know has bought; a few of them are very good products, but the majority are very flawed at the best.  When you get that same vibe from the marketing for an RPG, people can be forgiven for having a natural reaction of skepticism.  Especially when so much of the marketing is telling you how much you need this game, and how innovative it is... sounds just like something I'd hear on a TV infomercial.  Watch the Baron DeRopp video linked earlier in the thread.  It gushes over the illustrations, the organization, the brevity of the spell descriptions and the rules.  Is that really a selling point?  It slices, it dices, it makes Julian fries!  I actually think, as much as the marketing helped make the game successful with 5e converts and relative newbies to RPGs, it hurt with some segments of the hobby that have seen these marketing pitches before.

None of this has anything to do with how good the game actually is.  I know some people like it a lot.  My group is a bit more of an optimizer group, and Shadowdark's lack of character options turned them off quickly (I'm a bit more of a rules-lite person myself).  I don't begrudge anyone else's fun.  But I do begrudge other people telling me how I am allowed to react to marketing...

I think part of that is Baron Darop kinda naturally comes off as a tool.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 02, 2024, 08:47:27 PMMarketing used to be the attempt to identify people who could be served by your product and explaining the product to them.  Now it is an attempt to convince as many people as possible to buy a product, regardless of whether or not your product will serve a need of theirs.

The pushiness of advertisers and shilling fanboys seems to increase with the mainstream acceptance of TTRPGs. Which makes sense if you think that you are going to make a lot of money with TTRPGs and you are trying to turn your hobby into a profession.

I'll use myself as an example to illustrate why Shadowdark might have broad appeal (or, at least, broader appeal than most OSR games, if nowhere near D&D's imperial status). I haven't played much in the last half decade or so, and am thinking of dipping back in. Long-time D&D player going back to the early 80s, have dabbled with other stuff over the years but always find myself back to dungeons, dragons, and icosahedrons. I really like just about everything I see from Free League, but mostly for inspiration and ideas.

I picked up the new Player's Handbook and it seems more of the same as 2014, but with a bit more of the "flair" people complain about here (though not quite as bad as I was expecting). But I tend to prefer "traditional" fantasy - not in love with fluffberries and dragonborn bards, but to each their own.  I'd also like something a bit simpler than WotC D&D.

Anyhow, part of the appeal of Shadowdark--aside from the physical product and the streamlined "neo-OSR" rules--is that it doesn't feed into the culture war BS on either side. Quite frankly, a lot of the beef I see for Shadowdark is coming from edgelordy righties who are pissed that the creator hasn't pledged her allegiance to their ideology. The suspicion seems to be that If she's not one of us, she's one of them. I mean, she's a woman! She looks vaguely leftish ...maybe? So that puts certain people off.

But from my brief browsing of her Youtube, she seems genuinely interested in, well, just making and playing a good game, without any particular political take or presumed cultural hauteur or stance. This seems to piss some people off, that is those that take an "us or them" mentality.

I think (or maybe hope) that there's a growing number of folks--of whatever political orientation or cultural disposition--that are just sick of the endless culture war bs, sick of "sideism," which ends up as distorted mirror images of each other. I mean, give it a rest. If you're on either side, quit feeding the fire and focus on playing games. There are other realms than WotC-style wokeism and pseudo-iconoclastic edgelordism.

In other words, getting back to basics, enjoying the play of imagination, rolling dice, going on quests, and killing things. From what I can tell without (yet) owning the book, Shadowdark seems designed with "us" folks in mind.  For me, right now it is vying with Dragonbane and maybe Forbidden Lands for the game I'll use if I dust off the dice.

Well, that's a fair point. That said, the number of RPGs that actually "feed into the culture war" from the right are very few.

Quote from: Mercurius on September 11, 2024, 11:52:13 PMAnyhow, part of the appeal of Shadowdark--aside from the physical product and the streamlined "neo-OSR" rules--is that it doesn't feed into the culture war BS on either side. Quite frankly, a lot of the beef I see for Shadowdark is coming from edgelordy righties who are pissed that the creator hasn't pledged her allegiance to their ideology. The suspicion seems to be that If she's not one of us, she's one of them. I mean, she's a woman! She looks vaguely leftish ...maybe? So that puts certain people off.

Kelsey takes an "actively Neutral" stance in banning politics from SD social media. She interacts happily with right wing as well as left wing OSR figures. From what I see on X she really gets more flak for this from the Left than from the Right, there are a lot more cancelpigs on the Left. I've seen her accused of being "pro BrOSR" because she's friendly with people who are friendly with Jeffro sort of thing. This has resulted in Shadowdark social media sites being much more pleasant sites than most OSR sites on Reddit and Facebook, which are largely controlled by SJWs from what I've seen. 

One thing that sucks about Shadowdark though is there is no Hills encounter table in the core book. An unforgivable lapse. :D

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 05:35:14 AMWell, that's a fair point. That said, the number of RPGs that actually "feed into the culture war" from the right are very few.

Yeah, I agree. That's probably because of demographics - there are (as far as I can tell) more left-leaning types in the RPG community, and of course the corporate element, at least from Hasbro (i.e. corporations virtue signaling their wokeness).

Quote from: S'mon on September 12, 2024, 06:52:34 AM

Quote from: Mercurius on September 11, 2024, 11:52:13 PMAnyhow, part of the appeal of Shadowdark--aside from the physical product and the streamlined "neo-OSR" rules--is that it doesn't feed into the culture war BS on either side. Quite frankly, a lot of the beef I see for Shadowdark is coming from edgelordy righties who are pissed that the creator hasn't pledged her allegiance to their ideology. The suspicion seems to be that If she's not one of us, she's one of them. I mean, she's a woman! She looks vaguely leftish ...maybe? So that puts certain people off.

Kelsey takes an "actively Neutral" stance in banning politics from SD social media. She interacts happily with right wing as well as left wing OSR figures. From what I see on X she really gets more flak for this from the Left than from the Right, there are a lot more cancelpigs on the Left. I've seen her accused of being "pro BrOSR" because she's friendly with people who are friendly with Jeffro sort of thing. This has resulted in Shadowdark social media sites being much more pleasant sites than most OSR sites on Reddit and Facebook, which are largely controlled by SJWs from what I've seen. 

Good to know - and I generally agree, that the left is more prone to the cancel game.

Quote from: Mercurius on September 12, 2024, 08:19:23 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 05:35:14 AMWell, that's a fair point. That said, the number of RPGs that actually "feed into the culture war" from the right are very few.

Yeah, I agree. That's probably because of demographics - there are (as far as I can tell) more left-leaning types in the RPG community, and of course the corporate element, at least from Hasbro (i.e. corporations virtue signaling their wokeness).

No, it's not just that. It's that most right-wing gamers DO NOT WANT to make games that are thinly-veiled ideological propaganda. They want to make games that are just for gaming, and their political position is not shoved into their books.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 09:27:21 AM

Quote from: Mercurius on September 12, 2024, 08:19:23 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 05:35:14 AMWell, that's a fair point. That said, the number of RPGs that actually "feed into the culture war" from the right are very few.

Yeah, I agree. That's probably because of demographics - there are (as far as I can tell) more left-leaning types in the RPG community, and of course the corporate element, at least from Hasbro (i.e. corporations virtue signaling their wokeness).

No, it's not just that. It's that most right-wing gamers DO NOT WANT to make games that are thinly-veiled ideological propaganda. They want to make games that are just for gaming, and their political position is not shoved into their books.

The operative word is "most," which applies the other way. That is, most left-wing gamers don't either, it is just that there's a rather loud segment that do and it is fueled by larger social dynamics and corporate elements. This is part of the problem: the assumption by some that if you're left-leaning in any way, you want to proselytize about any and all SJW pet issues, as if the left is one monolithic, blue-haired bloc. It goes back to the tribalism that I mentioned upthread: and people on either side "signal" their allegiance, and if they don't they're suspect. A lot of folks that are left, even far-left in some ways, don't care about such things - just like a lot of folks that are right.

Lefties run the gamut from authoritarian types to libertarian types - just like righties.

Quote from: Mercurius on September 12, 2024, 08:19:23 AMYeah, I agree. That's probably because of demographics - there are (as far as I can tell) more left-leaning types in the RPG community, and of course the corporate element, at least from Hasbro (i.e. corporations virtue signaling their wokeness).

  WotC has been progressive from its roots, if the infamous Salon article by John Tynes (https://www.salon.com/2001/03/23/wizards/) can be trusted, and Paizo even more so. I think a lot of it is that the two biggest players in the industry are centered in a part of the United States notorious for strident and self-righteous progessivism.

Quote from: Mercurius on September 12, 2024, 10:12:43 AMThat is, most left-wing gamers don't either, it is just that there's a rather loud segment that do and it is fueled by larger social dynamics and corporate elements.

There could also be a fair bit of difference between what left-wing gamers want to see and what left-wing game designers/writers want to produce.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on September 12, 2024, 10:41:59 AM

Quote from: Mercurius on September 12, 2024, 08:19:23 AMYeah, I agree. That's probably because of demographics - there are (as far as I can tell) more left-leaning types in the RPG community, and of course the corporate element, at least from Hasbro (i.e. corporations virtue signaling their wokeness).

  WotC has been progressive from its roots, if the infamous Salon article by John Tynes (https://www.salon.com/2001/03/23/wizards/) can be trusted, and Paizo even more so. I think a lot of it is that the two biggest players in the industry are centered in a part of the United States notorious for strident and self-righteous progessivism.

IMHO there's a difference between "progressive" and full on "woke mind virus".  A lot of these companies were progressive, true, but it's only the last few years where they've gone full "if you don't support left-leaning politics, especially identity politics around LGBT+, you're a bigot and a nazi" sort of nonsense.  It used to be that these people kept it to themselves.  Instead you now have prominent people spouting leftist, communist crap like calling anyone supporting the republicans a fascist and telling them they're not wanted in the game or community and should be ostracized for having different political beliefs.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 09:27:21 AM

Quote from: Mercurius on September 12, 2024, 08:19:23 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 05:35:14 AMWell, that's a fair point. That said, the number of RPGs that actually "feed into the culture war" from the right are very few.

Yeah, I agree. That's probably because of demographics - there are (as far as I can tell) more left-leaning types in the RPG community, and of course the corporate element, at least from Hasbro (i.e. corporations virtue signaling their wokeness).

No, it's not just that. It's that most right-wing gamers DO NOT WANT to make games that are thinly-veiled ideological propaganda. They want to make games that are just for gaming, and their political position is not shoved into their books.

One advantage I think that right leaning (and centrist) creators have is that they're not afraid to use popular tropes that left leaning creators mock or outright thing are "problematic".

Quote from: Ratman_tf on September 12, 2024, 01:01:57 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 09:27:21 AM

Quote from: Mercurius on September 12, 2024, 08:19:23 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 05:35:14 AMWell, that's a fair point. That said, the number of RPGs that actually "feed into the culture war" from the right are very few.

Yeah, I agree. That's probably because of demographics - there are (as far as I can tell) more left-leaning types in the RPG community, and of course the corporate element, at least from Hasbro (i.e. corporations virtue signaling their wokeness).

No, it's not just that. It's that most right-wing gamers DO NOT WANT to make games that are thinly-veiled ideological propaganda. They want to make games that are just for gaming, and their political position is not shoved into their books.

One advantage I think that right leaning (and centrist) creators have is that they're not afraid to use popular tropes that left leaning creators mock or outright thing are "problematic".

Well yes. I mean, most right wing game designers just make RPG products that have no explicit politics. But they do stuff like have goblins that act like goblins, or have medieval setting where people actually behave like its NOT 2024 Seattle, and the Left therefore claims its evil.

Some leftists called Sword & Caravan racist, because I am writing about non-white cultures and am not of those cultures (like, only an Uzbek could write about Uzbeks in an RPG setting). Others claim that Baptism of Fire is "fascist" because it has Christianity and doesn't present Christianity as a bad thing.

That's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PMWell, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

  It is not at all unheard of for the tone of the game's art, fiction, and adventures to run in a direction decidedly orthogonal to the mechanics. I submit most of AD&D 2nd Edition as evidence. :)

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

The mechanics might support the same old adventuring as always but what about published scenarios that outline the activities that PCs actually do? Granted there are no published adventures for 2024 D&D yet but if the ones published for the 2014 rules in the past few years are any indication then they don't support a whole lot that the mechanics seem to support.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

Except that now orcs aren't evil. Drow aren't evil. Mind flayers aren't evil. Race doesn't really exist anymore as a category. There's all kinds of changes that were put into parts of the rules for ideological purposes.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 13, 2024, 10:21:28 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

Except that now orcs aren't evil. Drow aren't evil. Mind flayers aren't evil. Race doesn't really exist anymore as a category. There's all kinds of changes that were put into parts of the rules for ideological purposes.

A four years ago, my son was in undergrad and played the official Starter Set adventure with his friends - "The Dragon of Icespire Peak". I recall there was intense controversy over that because there was a gay NPC on page 133 - but from what I heard, the adventure was pretty much just like lots of my old adventures. They joked around, killed a bunch of monsters, and collected some treasure.

What do you think would happen if I just gave some kids the latest 2024 rules and the latest starting adventure (which I think is still 2023's "Phandelver and Below" since they haven't released a new 2024 edition adventure yet)?

I suspect they'd go around and kill a bunch of goblins and mindflayers and other monsters, collect some treasure, make a bunch of jokes and eat a bunch of snacks.


Changes like a picture of gay dwarves and a picture of a taco aren't actually completely remaking the game. They're token nods that have no real effect, which is standard for corporate leftism. Make some noise online and thrown in some token nods, and then just do the same thing corporations always do.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 13, 2024, 10:21:28 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

Except that now orcs aren't evil. Drow aren't evil. Mind flayers aren't evil. Race doesn't really exist anymore as a category. There's all kinds of changes that were put into parts of the rules for ideological purposes.

When all races suddenly became the same, in the eyes of WOTC; D&D became a lot more bland, and less interesting.

When evil monstrous races, were no longer considered evil; WOTC no longer had any damn sense.

Quote from: jhkim on September 13, 2024, 05:20:47 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 13, 2024, 10:21:28 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

Except that now orcs aren't evil. Drow aren't evil. Mind flayers aren't evil. Race doesn't really exist anymore as a category. There's all kinds of changes that were put into parts of the rules for ideological purposes.

A four years ago, my son was in undergrad and played the official Starter Set adventure with his friends - "The Dragon of Icespire Peak". I recall there was intense controversy over that because there was a gay NPC on page 133 - but from what I heard, the adventure was pretty much just like lots of my old adventures. They joked around, killed a bunch of monsters, and collected some treasure.

What do you think would happen if I just gave some kids the latest 2024 rules and the latest starting adventure (which I think is still 2023's "Phandelver and Below" since they haven't released a new 2024 edition adventure yet)?

I suspect they'd go around and kill a bunch of goblins and mindflayers and other monsters, collect some treasure, make a bunch of jokes and eat a bunch of snacks.


Changes like a picture of gay dwarves and a picture of a taco aren't actually completely remaking the game. They're token nods that have no real effect, which is standard for corporate leftism. Make some noise online and thrown in some token nods, and then just do the same thing corporations always do.

What you're claiming goes against decades of research on the power of propaganda. The best way to normalize something abhorrent is to keep showing it over and over again. Especially to the young.

Greetings!

Yeah, just imagine if 5E and Nu D&D were actually free entirely from Liberal Marxist, Woke BS? Scrubbed all the language police, the "Sensitivity Readers", all the stupid rules changes, and the feminized, Woke art.

Just imagine what a normal game would look like, that embraced traditional art, game design and traditional mythic flavour?

*Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 13, 2024, 10:19:55 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

The mechanics might support the same old adventuring as always but what about published scenarios that outline the activities that PCs actually do? Granted there are no published adventures for 2024 D&D yet but if the ones published for the 2014 rules in the past few years are any indication then they don't support a whole lot that the mechanics seem to support.

Can you give some examples of what you mean?

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 13, 2024, 10:21:28 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

Except that now orcs aren't evil. Drow aren't evil. Mind flayers aren't evil. Race doesn't really exist anymore as a category. There's all kinds of changes that were put into parts of the rules for ideological purposes.

How does meaningfully impact how the game is played?

Quote from: jhkim on September 13, 2024, 05:20:47 PMChanges like a picture of gay dwarves and a picture of a taco aren't actually completely remaking the game. They're token nods that have no real effect, which is standard for corporate leftism. Make some noise online and thrown in some token nods, and then just do the same thing corporations always do.

OK, so you are asserting that the changes to the illustrations has no real effect on the way the game is played.  So, likewise, if WotC decided to only show white males in the illustrations, it would also have no effect on the game.  By your logic, the present format is the equivalent of deciding to only show white males playing and as characters, since neither affects the game as it is played.

I don't believe that you would respond to the second scenario with the same indifference as you are the present book.  In fact, I bet you would criticize the choice, with hypotheticals about how picturing diverse customers is better for their business, blah, blah, blah.

The illustrations in the PHB were chosen for ideological reasons, not artistic ones.  Illustrations in an rpg are intended to set the tone of the game, as well as reflect the designers' conception of how the game should look at the table.  A book full of grinning twinks sets a very different expectation of play than a book full of grim, realistic pictures.

Even if race, color, or culture were never mentioned in the book, if all the illustrations were of pasty white heroes slaughtering dark-skinned, brutish humanoids, you and the other leftists around here would be losing your minds, even though those illustrations don't change the "mechanics" at all.  But, hey, double standards is the Lingua Franca of leftists, anyway...

JHKim is doing the typical leftist argument process:

"Its not happening! But if it's happening its not a big deal! And if it is a big deal, it's a good thing, because it's what you deserve to have inflicted on your evil hobby!"

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 13, 2024, 09:32:17 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 13, 2024, 05:20:47 PMChanges like a picture of gay dwarves and a picture of a taco aren't actually completely remaking the game. They're token nods that have no real effect, which is standard for corporate leftism. Make some noise online and thrown in some token nods, and then just do the same thing corporations always do.

OK, so you are asserting that the changes to the illustrations has no real effect on the way the game is played.  So, likewise, if WotC decided to only show white males in the illustrations, it would also have no effect on the game.  By your logic, the present format is the equivalent of deciding to only show white males playing and as characters, since neither affects the game as it is played.

I don't believe that you would respond to the second scenario with the same indifference as you are the present book.  In fact, I bet you would criticize the choice, with hypotheticals about how picturing diverse customers is better for their business, blah, blah, blah.

You're claiming some generic leftist position as you imagine it, but that doesn't describe my positions at all.

I've consistently been nonchalant about politics in games in general. That's not to say that I have no opinions about them, but it's no big deal and I'm happy to buy, read, and play games from all styles and authors of various politics. I've run James Bond 007 (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/jamesbond007/), Conan RPG (d20) (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/brawnythews/), Macho Women With Guns (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/machowomenwithguns/), along with old-style D&D, Call of Cthulhu, and lots of others.

There are plenty of people - including many leftists - who will explode in outrage when an RPG is published that doesn't conform to their politics. However, I'm not one of them.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 13, 2024, 09:32:17 PMThe illustrations in the PHB were chosen for ideological reasons, not artistic ones.  Illustrations in an rpg are intended to set the tone of the game, as well as reflect the designers' conception of how the game should look at the table.  A book full of grinning twinks sets a very different expectation of play than a book full of grim, realistic pictures.

I don't disagree. WotC is a big corporation, and all of this and previous editions were created as products for profit, trying to appeal to particular demographics including ideology -- not for art.

The question is how much I care. I haven't seen the 2024 PHB, and thus I have no opinion on the art yet. I may well hate it. In general, though, I have been fine with games where there are silly whimsical pictures interspersed with grim, realistic pictures. For example:

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon1.jpg) (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon2.jpg)
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon3.jpg) (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon4.jpg)
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon5.jpg) (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon6.jpg)
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon7.jpg)

Quote from: jhkim on September 14, 2024, 02:07:55 AMBunch of pictures from AD&D PHB...

And?  How does that challenge anything I said?  The pictures in the original PHB reflected the way that Gary played his game at the table: sometimes serious and heroic, sometimes whimsical.  You are trying to deflect, but you are proving my point.

Now, would you respond the same way to a PHB that had only light-skinned protagonists killing dark-skinned brutes in its illustrations?   You always talk in vague generalities (unless you find a nit-pick you think you can hang your hat on), but this is a specific case that I asserted would be different.  Tell me that you would have no problem with that game or illustrations, that the illustrations were meaningless corporate signaling with "no effect" on the game or how it is played. 

Quote from: jhkim on September 14, 2024, 02:07:55 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 13, 2024, 09:32:17 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 13, 2024, 05:20:47 PMChanges like a picture of gay dwarves and a picture of a taco aren't actually completely remaking the game. They're token nods that have no real effect, which is standard for corporate leftism. Make some noise online and thrown in some token nods, and then just do the same thing corporations always do.

OK, so you are asserting that the changes to the illustrations has no real effect on the way the game is played.  So, likewise, if WotC decided to only show white males in the illustrations, it would also have no effect on the game.  By your logic, the present format is the equivalent of deciding to only show white males playing and as characters, since neither affects the game as it is played.

I don't believe that you would respond to the second scenario with the same indifference as you are the present book.  In fact, I bet you would criticize the choice, with hypotheticals about how picturing diverse customers is better for their business, blah, blah, blah.

You're claiming some generic leftist position as you imagine it, but that doesn't describe my positions at all.

I've consistently been nonchalant about politics in games in general. That's not to say that I have no opinions about them, but it's no big deal and I'm happy to buy, read, and play games from all styles and authors of various politics. I've run James Bond 007 (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/jamesbond007/), Conan RPG (d20) (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/brawnythews/), Macho Women With Guns (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/machowomenwithguns/), along with old-style D&D, Call of Cthulhu, and lots of others.

There are plenty of people - including many leftists - who will explode in outrage when an RPG is published that doesn't conform to their politics. However, I'm not one of them.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 13, 2024, 09:32:17 PMThe illustrations in the PHB were chosen for ideological reasons, not artistic ones.  Illustrations in an rpg are intended to set the tone of the game, as well as reflect the designers' conception of how the game should look at the table.  A book full of grinning twinks sets a very different expectation of play than a book full of grim, realistic pictures.

I don't disagree. WotC is a big corporation, and all of this and previous editions were created as products for profit, trying to appeal to particular demographics including ideology -- not for art.

The question is how much I care. I haven't seen the 2024 PHB, and thus I have no opinion on the art yet. I may well hate it. In general, though, I have been fine with games where there are silly whimsical pictures interspersed with grim, realistic pictures. For example:

(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon1.jpg) (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon2.jpg)
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon3.jpg) (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon4.jpg)
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon5.jpg) (https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon6.jpg)
(https://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/dnd/img/dmg1e_cartoon7.jpg)

Those are COMEDY pieces, not "whimsical pieces". There's zero expectation of that being an instruction on what your game should actually look like. On the other hand, the Gay Dwarves Making Pastry, the Multicultural Executive Restaurant Meal, and the Noble Family-Oriented Mexican Orcs are not done for laughs, they're done to tell players "This is what a D&D campaign in 2024 should look like, bigot!"

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 02, 2024, 08:47:27 PMMarketing used to be the attempt to identify people who could be served by your product and explaining the product to them.  Now it is an attempt to convince as many people as possible to buy a product, regardless of whether or not your product will serve a need of theirs.

Not really now.

Marketing likes to push possible customers away with outrage marketing to garner free advertising. And have a convenient scapegoat if the product tanks. "It was those mean ol "ists" fault our product failed! Really! Honest!"
They do it ALOT in near every venue. wotc in particular loves to seed little triggers into their marketing. Fake 5e was laden with it at every turn.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 13, 2024, 07:41:03 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 13, 2024, 10:19:55 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

The mechanics might support the same old adventuring as always but what about published scenarios that outline the activities that PCs actually do? Granted there are no published adventures for 2024 D&D yet but if the ones published for the 2014 rules in the past few years are any indication then they don't support a whole lot that the mechanics seem to support.

Can you give some examples of what you mean?

Well we can start with Strixhaven. Your introductory grand heroic adventure begins with bravely navigating university life, heroically battling relationships with fellow students, culminating in the big boss fight of final exams. Congratulations! If you make it through this gauntlet you reach 2nd level.

I tell ya, its hard to contain the excitement. 

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 17, 2024, 09:11:20 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 13, 2024, 07:41:03 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 13, 2024, 10:19:55 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

The mechanics might support the same old adventuring as always but what about published scenarios that outline the activities that PCs actually do? Granted there are no published adventures for 2024 D&D yet but if the ones published for the 2014 rules in the past few years are any indication then they don't support a whole lot that the mechanics seem to support.

Can you give some examples of what you mean?

Well we can start with Strixhaven. Your introductory grand heroic adventure begins with bravely navigating university life, heroically battling relationships with fellow students, culminating in the big boss fight of final exams. Congratulations! If you make it through this gauntlet you reach 2nd level.

I tell ya, its hard to contain the excitement. 

The irony here is that something like Strixhaven might be a fun "palate cleanser" mini-campaign, but D&D rules seem to be a poor fit for it.  Which is part of the issue.  Trying to shoehorn D&D rules into a weird storytelling university setting where your goals are to pass your exams and ask the cute Tiefling in Defense Against the Dark Arts to prom isn't the sort of campaign that D&D is suited for.  It could be amusing to play in, but not using D&D.

Quote from: Nobleshield on September 17, 2024, 12:51:02 PMThe irony here is that something like Strixhaven might be a fun "palate cleanser" mini-campaign, but D&D rules seem to be a poor fit for it.  Which is part of the issue.  Trying to shoehorn D&D rules into a weird storytelling university setting where your goals are to pass your exams and ask the cute Tiefling in Defense Against the Dark Arts to prom isn't the sort of campaign that D&D is suited for.  It could be amusing to play in, but not using D&D.

  Unfortunately, D&D's market dominance gives WotC and other publishers an incentive to try to squeeze anything they can into the D&D brand and/or system. This is the key reason I think D&D's disproportionate success has been bad for both D&D and for the broader TTRPG hobby. Sad to say, nothing's likely to fix that at this point.

Quote from: jhkim on September 14, 2024, 02:07:55 AMThe question is how much I care. I haven't seen the 2024 PHB, and thus I have no opinion on the art yet. I may well hate it.

Well here you go.  Some of the art from the PHB 2024:

(https://www.certifiedgeek.net/rpgs/crapart1.png)

(https://www.certifiedgeek.net/rpgs/crapart2.png)

(https://www.certifiedgeek.net/rpgs/crapart3.png)

(https://www.certifiedgeek.net/rpgs/crapart4.png)

Just terrible and totally WOKE BS "art".

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 02, 2024, 06:12:15 PM

Quote from: Skullking on September 02, 2024, 06:10:11 AMRegarding to the marketing, Kelsey is married, and her wife (yes she does get a free pass from some for being a lesbian) works in marketing which goes a long way into explaining why the campaign was so successful, a point I think missed by most.

I don't think it's missed at all.  I think this is part of the instinctive reaction a lot of people have against Shadowdark.  When many of the Youtube reviews (by folks who either know or have worked with Kelsey) sound like infomercials, many viewers will have a learned reaction based on the way that modern marketing works.  Think about the way you generally respond to TV infomercials.  I've seen several products on TV that someone I know has bought; a few of them are very good products, but the majority are very flawed at the best.  When you get that same vibe from the marketing for an RPG, people can be forgiven for having a natural reaction of skepticism.  Especially when so much of the marketing is telling you how much you need this game, and how innovative it is... sounds just like something I'd hear on a TV infomercial.  Watch the Baron DeRopp video linked earlier in the thread.  It gushes over the illustrations, the organization, the brevity of the spell descriptions and the rules.  Is that really a selling point?  It slices, it dices, it makes Julian fries!  I actually think, as much as the marketing helped make the game successful with 5e converts and relative newbies to RPGs, it hurt with some segments of the hobby that have seen these marketing pitches before.

None of this has anything to do with how good the game actually is.  I know some people like it a lot.  My group is a bit more of an optimizer group, and Shadowdark's lack of character options turned them off quickly (I'm a bit more of a rules-lite person myself).  I don't begrudge anyone else's fun.  But I do begrudge other people telling me how I am allowed to react to marketing...

Exactly. The insane marketing hype is irritating. When you bring it up people assume you're just jealous, or you're just too cynical, or you're a right winger engaging in tribalism, etc.

Speaking of which I haven't actually seen all the alleged haters that are everywhere. Most of the videos and posts about the situation are just parroting each other. Red Room said they don't like it, Venger made some vague reference to it, and Pundit made a video about how he isn't Red Room or Venger. Sprinkle in some nobody twitter posters for taste, and apparently you have yourself an omnipresent frothing mad hate mob that requires response videos lecturing the audience about the dangers of gatekeeping or something.

I also want to talk about an example of where Shadowdark falls short and its brevity and unoriginality is a problem (at least in the quickstart rules, I haven't bought the whole thing, but I think it is the same).
It has the same issue as a lot of these rules light games do (EZD6 being another example). In many cases you're essentially paying for an index card that says "Make it up yourself" for the game master and "Play mother may I with the game master" for the players.
As one of the core combat rules, Shadowdark basically handwaves all rules for conditions away and says "use advantage/disadvantage and common sense." Okay fine, but I'm not paying you 30 dollars for "common sense," common sense which is likely only developed from already playing existing rpgs like 5e, where you got advantage/disadvantage from in the first place.

Another example is spell descriptions, which a lot of reviewers hyped up because they're so much shorter than other games (still comparable to many existing OSR games). They are. It's nice. But that comes at a cost.
Take the Alter Self spell. "You magically change your physical form, gaining one feature that modifies your existing anatomy. For example, you can grow functional gills on your neck or bear claws on your fingers."

Okay, why would I get bear claws or any other natural weapon? Would that do more damage than just using the weapon I have? If it's for climbing, how fast can I climb with it? Again, this essentially relies on the GM knowing how Alter Self already works in another game. I don't like the 5e version and I think it's weak, but it at least tells me the benefits, and it doesn't get nearly enough credit for already heavily condensing the 3rd edition version.

This won't bother a lot of people going to SD from 5e or the OSR because everyone will rely on what they already know, or handwave it away with "rulings not rules." But is that really a credit to SD?

I like OSR design, I like a lot of the 5e design, and I like SD's presentation. Not for everyone though obviously. My player who tried to get us to switch to Pathfinder 2e and thinks 5e is too simple is not a fan.

I did find myself adding quite a lot of house rules, especially around movement. Mostly because we play on a grid and like detailed tactical movement.

Quote from: RPGPundit on August 30, 2024, 01:53:20 AMI find myself forced to defend Shadowdark after Venger left the hobby with a bang. Also, new videos by WotC reveal the absolute state of the business, its staff, & the VTT!

I still don't know what's so special about Shadowdark. Looks like it has a lot of fans. I'll have to watch some of those YouTube reviews to wrap my head around the game.

Quote from: Spobo on September 28, 2024, 06:52:32 PMThis won't bother a lot of people going to SD from 5e or the OSR because everyone will rely on what they already know, or handwave it away with "rulings not rules." But is that really a credit to SD?

No. (I have the full game.)

SD relies on assumed knowledge of how D&D works. It gets away with this because it is a niche game poaching off of players/GM's that want to try something different from 5e, but not completely walk off of the D&D fantasy reservation.

Objectively speaking it is Bad game design. In SD's case it really doesn't matter though because they rely on D&D's network effect to attract people to their game.

Quote from: S'mon on September 29, 2024, 02:30:13 AMI like OSR design, I like a lot of the 5e design, and I like SD's presentation. Not for everyone though obviously. My player who tried to get us to switch to Pathfinder 2e and thinks 5e is too simple is not a fan.

I personally think that there is a sweet middle ground for design between 5e (which is deceptively fiddly), and something as lite as SD.

But for some reason people seem to want to go to one extreme of another SD rules lite or PF2e complexity... when they move away from 5e.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 28, 2024, 07:33:46 PMI personally think that there is a sweet middle ground for design between 5e (which is deceptively fiddly), and something as lite as SD.

I agree, but I'm curious which games you'd cite as examples. I'd really like a good middle-weight classic fantasy RPG I could settle on for running D&D settings. I've looked at several games and not found something that filled the niche for me.

Quote from: GhostNinja on September 17, 2024, 01:16:01 PM(https://www.certifiedgeek.net/rpgs/crapart3.png)

I notice that all of the players made self-inserts because of course they did.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 28, 2024, 07:33:46 PM

Quote from: Spobo on September 28, 2024, 06:52:32 PMThis won't bother a lot of people going to SD from 5e or the OSR because everyone will rely on what they already know, or handwave it away with "rulings not rules." But is that really a credit to SD?

No. (I have the full game.)

SD relies on assumed knowledge of how D&D works. It gets away with this because it is a niche game poaching off of players/GM's that want to try something different from 5e, but not completely walk off of the D&D fantasy reservation.

Objectively speaking it is Bad game design. In SD's case it really doesn't matter though because they rely on D&D's network effect to attract people to their game.

That's normal for all of the OSR. Its one of the benefits of the OSR, you don't have to give a tutorial of how to play, because the people getting into the OSR have almost certainly played D&D before.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 28, 2024, 07:33:46 PMI personally think that there is a sweet middle ground for design between 5e (which is deceptively fiddly), and something as lite as SD.

I like Dragonbane as a game intermediate between SD & 5e. But Dragnbane is still heavy enough for me to get burnout running it. I feel like I could run Shadowdark forever.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 29, 2024, 11:03:38 AMThat's normal for all of the OSR. Its one of the benefits of the OSR, you don't have to give a tutorial of how to play, because the people getting into the OSR have almost certainly played D&D before.

I feel the criticism may have more merit with Shadowdark in particular, because it is coming from 5e, not the general OSR, and naturally we tend to default to the 5e approach where SD is silent. I'm not sure how SD looks to someone with no 5e experience. Is it even really playable? 

Well, my DM asked if we wanted to do a couple of sessions of Shadowdark to try it out.  We did a gauntlet last session, and it was OK.  I've got some thoughts, but I'm going to hold off until we play a few normal sessions.

I enjoyed it when I played a few sessions. It does assume rpg knowledge, for example, there are some status effects that players can get that are not covered in the book. That doesn't hold things back for me though. I'm fine with coming up with that stuff on my own and I have no problem borrowing from something else. I look at it more as a hack than something that needs to stand on its own with everything spelled out.

Quote from: yosemitemikeI notice that all of the players made self-inserts because of course they did.

Yeah.  I also noticed that.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 29, 2024, 05:19:23 AM

Quote from: GhostNinja on September 17, 2024, 01:16:01 PM(https://www.certifiedgeek.net/rpgs/crapart3.png)

I notice that all of the players made self-inserts because of course they did.

Except... not really.
Dark skinned black haired guy playing pale skinned, pale haired guy
Dark skinned black haired gal playing darker skinned, longer haired gal.
Lightly dark skinned brown haired guy playing pale skinned, maybe brown haired guy.
White skinned brown haired guy with glasses playing white skinned, pale haired guy without glasses.

Of those only one would even remotely rate as a "self insert" unless the term has, like every other, been stretched to now mean everything on earth.

Quote from: Omega on December 29, 2024, 10:57:27 PMExcept... not really.

Except yes obviously.  Are we looking at the same picture?  The first one has longer hair but is otherwise the same.  The second one has longer hair and no glasses.  The third is just the same guy in different clothes.  The fourth one is the same guy with hair dye and no glasses.  The other one is obviously the DM.  A couple of them are slightly idealized which is common in self-inserts.

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 30, 2024, 02:55:57 AM

Quote from: Omega on December 29, 2024, 10:57:27 PMExcept... not really.

Except yes obviously.  Are we looking at the same picture?  The first one has longer hair but is otherwise the same.  The second one has longer hair and no glasses.  The third is just the same guy in different clothes.  The fourth one is the same guy with hair dye and no glasses.  The other one is obviously the DM.  A couple of them are slightly idealized which is common in self-inserts.

Greetings!

Yeah, YosemiteMike, I see the obvious SELF_INSERT of the Players and the DM in that game. *Laughing* OF COURSE they self-insert! Geesus. What clowns, you know? And the artwork is just terrible.

It makes me wonder "Who the EFF are WOTC making this game for anymore?" You know? Right right. Yeah, *WE* are certainly not their target audience.

Omega? He is just being contrarian and jerky. He seems to like doing that. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2024, 08:08:45 PM...
I agree, but I'm curious which games you'd cite as examples. I'd really like a good middle-weight classic fantasy RPG I could settle on for running D&D settings. I've looked at several games and not found something that filled the niche for me.

There's almost none.

Old Swords Reign, with feats allowed gets close. Low fantasy gaming was close, but I didn't like some of the design choices made.

It is a very fine line to walk, because as you add stuff to a rules-lite base it's really easy to get to full 5e levels of fiddly.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 29, 2024, 11:03:38 AMThat's normal for all of the OSR. It's one of the benefits of the OSR, you don't have to give a tutorial of how to play, because the people getting into the OSR have almost certainly played D&D before.

The difference  between the traditional OSR and a game like ShadowDark is that most of the OSR's mechanical heavy lifting is derived from B/X or AD&D, which are complete games. Other than 'what is an RPG' and an example of play, you are essentially getting a variant of what was sold in the late 70's early 80's.

Whereas SD breaks from the traditional OSR model is by making a d20 "D&D" game by distilling 5e gameplay down to less than b/x levels of complexity. SD is so cut-down and abbreviated - it leaves out lots of little details that traditional OSR games like Lion and Dragon include as a matter of course. So by default SD relies a lot more on a GM's assumed knowledge of 'how D&D works' than most other well-known OSR offerings.

Which of course it can get away with, because it is largely drawing people from 5e's network effect.

Hmm, that's a good point.

Quote from: ForgottenF on December 28, 2024, 08:08:45 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on December 28, 2024, 07:33:46 PMI personally think that there is a sweet middle ground for design between 5e (which is deceptively fiddly), and something as lite as SD.

I agree, but I'm curious which games you'd cite as examples. I'd really like a good middle-weight classic fantasy RPG I could settle on for running D&D settings. I've looked at several games and not found something that filled the niche for me.

Tales of Argosa (formerly Low Fantasy Gaming). There's been a thread on it here before.

50% off, today only:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/479871/tales-of-argosa?src=DotD

Here's a list of features:

Quote from: ToA9 Classes: Artificer (or Alchemist variant), Barbarian, Bard, Cultist, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue & Magic User; only two of which involve magic.

9th Level max caps PC power levels.

Flatter HP Curve Most PCs will have approx 10-40 hit points over their nine levels.

Unique Features Every 3rd level design your own PC ability in conjunction with your GM, or choose from 40+ examples.

Roll Under for Attribute checks, making every stat point matter. Degrees of success via Great Successes and Terrible Failures. 

Roll High for attack & damage rolls.

Wisdom is split into Perception and Willpower. Perception mod applies to ranged attacks instead of Dex. 

Simple Skills grant a +1 bonus on relevant Attribute checks, but more importantly allow a PC to access their limited Reroll Pool if they fail. The Variant Rules chapter includes a further simplified "Class, Race & Background" combo to replace the skill list, if desired.   

Minor, Major & Rescue Exploits on top of damage, not in lieu, promote improvised stunts and moments of
greatness.

Fast Initiative Side based initiative, but a different PC rolls each round. Initiative is a derived stat (average of Dex & Int). If the PC makes their Initiative check the party goes first, otherwise the monsters do. On a Great Success the party also acts before any Heavies or Bosses.

Diminishing Luck attribute replaces saving throws, ratcheting up the danger with each save.

Fierce Battle Martial Exploits, Nat 19s, Crits, Fumble ripostes, Morale checks, Trauma rolls, Heavies, and Bosses make for action packed battles! When reduced to zero hp, healing takes 1d3 minutes (magical or otherwise). Players don't roll to find out if their PC lives until after the combat, when an ally checks the body.

Unbalanced Encounters ToA is designed for unbalanced combat. Clear escape rules put the fate of the PCs in the players' hands - do they fight another round, or run?

Short Rests PCs make two Willpowers checks during a Short Rest to attempt to recover hp and class abilities, encouraging them to press on rather than camp.

Dark & Dangerous Magic Roll to Cast and DDM tests threaten to unleash Veil monsters, madness, mutation, or worse!

Downtime Rules for Carousing, Pets, Black Market Trade, Masterforged Gear, Gambling, Recovery, Potion Brewing, Magical Research, Scroll Inscribing, Rumours, and more.

Emergent Play & Solo Support via mechanics, procedures, and massive GM Toolbox to facilitate improv, including: Lone Wolf PC rules, Range Bands (for smoother Theatre of the Mind), Reaction & Activity rolls, Major Exploits & Rescues, Morale checks, Consult the Bones Dice Oracle, Read the Signs Card Oracle, Hexploration Procedures, Dungeon Tally & Events, Travel Events, Random Encounters, XP Awards, NPC Tables, Treasure Tables, Madness Table, Disease & Parasite Table, Trap Tables, Dungeon Generator, and more!

Easy Compatibility with most OSR and 5e style adventures; just swap out monster stats, treasure, and spells for ToA equivalents, and you're good to go! We've been playtesting with adventures from LFG, Forbidden Lands, Dragonbane, B4 The Lost City, Hot Springs Island, The Toxic Wood, Mines of Perinthos, and very recently Moria (from The One Ring, alpha PDF). Conversion tips are included.

Rules as Guidelines The GM is the final authority on all rules, which are expected to be tweaked to fit table preferences. The Variant Rules chapter includes suggestions such as more/less deadly, less dangerous magic, movement in feet rather than range bands, individual Initiative checks, etc.

Creative Commons Licence ToA has been released under CC BY-SA 4.0. You can create and sell your own supplements, adventures, etc, without needing any authority from us.

(Disclaimer: I'm not associated with the company in any way.)

Another solid choice in the mid-weight fantasy realm is Worlds Without Number, which has a free version:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/348809/worlds-without-number-free-edition

Features:

QuoteSword and sorcery heroes of blade, cunning, and spell. The proven OSR-compatible character creation system of Stars Without Number is redone here for a fantasy world of blade and black magic.
   
OSR-compatible rules, allowing you to plunder decades of existing adventure material for your play. You can even pull in Stars Without Number content, as it's fully compatible.
   
The Gyre region of the far-future Latter Earth, a premade sandbox for quick play. Venture forth to clash with the sinister powers that gather in the shadow of the waning rule of the Reaping King.
   
Worldbuilding tools crafted to the renowned Sine Nomine standard. Did you like the hundred different world tags in SWN? Then have two hundred inspirational tags to help you build ruins, courts, communities, and wilderness points of interest. Grab a wealth of tools for building histories, societies, governments, religions, and geography, all written with a keen eye toward producing good, playable content for your adventuring group.
   
Adventure creation tools to soothe the pangs of a working GM, with guides for building adventures out of combat, exploration, social, and investigative challenges. Use the tags you picked in the worldbuilding section to speed up your creation of a good night's gaming.
   
Faction rules for fantasy worlds, with dark cults, fierce lords, grasping abbots, and greedy merchants all serving to keep your world in motion even when the PCs aren't on the scene.