Quote from: RPGPundit on September 13, 2024, 10:21:28 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

Except that now orcs aren't evil. Drow aren't evil. Mind flayers aren't evil. Race doesn't really exist anymore as a category. There's all kinds of changes that were put into parts of the rules for ideological purposes.

A four years ago, my son was in undergrad and played the official Starter Set adventure with his friends - "The Dragon of Icespire Peak". I recall there was intense controversy over that because there was a gay NPC on page 133 - but from what I heard, the adventure was pretty much just like lots of my old adventures. They joked around, killed a bunch of monsters, and collected some treasure.

What do you think would happen if I just gave some kids the latest 2024 rules and the latest starting adventure (which I think is still 2023's "Phandelver and Below" since they haven't released a new 2024 edition adventure yet)?

I suspect they'd go around and kill a bunch of goblins and mindflayers and other monsters, collect some treasure, make a bunch of jokes and eat a bunch of snacks.


Changes like a picture of gay dwarves and a picture of a taco aren't actually completely remaking the game. They're token nods that have no real effect, which is standard for corporate leftism. Make some noise online and thrown in some token nods, and then just do the same thing corporations always do.

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 13, 2024, 10:21:28 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

Except that now orcs aren't evil. Drow aren't evil. Mind flayers aren't evil. Race doesn't really exist anymore as a category. There's all kinds of changes that were put into parts of the rules for ideological purposes.

When all races suddenly became the same, in the eyes of WOTC; D&D became a lot more bland, and less interesting.

When evil monstrous races, were no longer considered evil; WOTC no longer had any damn sense.

Quote from: jhkim on September 13, 2024, 05:20:47 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 13, 2024, 10:21:28 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

Except that now orcs aren't evil. Drow aren't evil. Mind flayers aren't evil. Race doesn't really exist anymore as a category. There's all kinds of changes that were put into parts of the rules for ideological purposes.

A four years ago, my son was in undergrad and played the official Starter Set adventure with his friends - "The Dragon of Icespire Peak". I recall there was intense controversy over that because there was a gay NPC on page 133 - but from what I heard, the adventure was pretty much just like lots of my old adventures. They joked around, killed a bunch of monsters, and collected some treasure.

What do you think would happen if I just gave some kids the latest 2024 rules and the latest starting adventure (which I think is still 2023's "Phandelver and Below" since they haven't released a new 2024 edition adventure yet)?

I suspect they'd go around and kill a bunch of goblins and mindflayers and other monsters, collect some treasure, make a bunch of jokes and eat a bunch of snacks.


Changes like a picture of gay dwarves and a picture of a taco aren't actually completely remaking the game. They're token nods that have no real effect, which is standard for corporate leftism. Make some noise online and thrown in some token nods, and then just do the same thing corporations always do.

What you're claiming goes against decades of research on the power of propaganda. The best way to normalize something abhorrent is to keep showing it over and over again. Especially to the young.

Greetings!

Yeah, just imagine if 5E and Nu D&D were actually free entirely from Liberal Marxist, Woke BS? Scrubbed all the language police, the "Sensitivity Readers", all the stupid rules changes, and the feminized, Woke art.

Just imagine what a normal game would look like, that embraced traditional art, game design and traditional mythic flavour?

*Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 13, 2024, 10:19:55 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

The mechanics might support the same old adventuring as always but what about published scenarios that outline the activities that PCs actually do? Granted there are no published adventures for 2024 D&D yet but if the ones published for the 2014 rules in the past few years are any indication then they don't support a whole lot that the mechanics seem to support.

Can you give some examples of what you mean?

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 13, 2024, 10:21:28 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

Except that now orcs aren't evil. Drow aren't evil. Mind flayers aren't evil. Race doesn't really exist anymore as a category. There's all kinds of changes that were put into parts of the rules for ideological purposes.

How does meaningfully impact how the game is played?

Quote from: jhkim on September 13, 2024, 05:20:47 PMChanges like a picture of gay dwarves and a picture of a taco aren't actually completely remaking the game. They're token nods that have no real effect, which is standard for corporate leftism. Make some noise online and thrown in some token nods, and then just do the same thing corporations always do.

OK, so you are asserting that the changes to the illustrations has no real effect on the way the game is played.  So, likewise, if WotC decided to only show white males in the illustrations, it would also have no effect on the game.  By your logic, the present format is the equivalent of deciding to only show white males playing and as characters, since neither affects the game as it is played.

I don't believe that you would respond to the second scenario with the same indifference as you are the present book.  In fact, I bet you would criticize the choice, with hypotheticals about how picturing diverse customers is better for their business, blah, blah, blah.

The illustrations in the PHB were chosen for ideological reasons, not artistic ones.  Illustrations in an rpg are intended to set the tone of the game, as well as reflect the designers' conception of how the game should look at the table.  A book full of grinning twinks sets a very different expectation of play than a book full of grim, realistic pictures.

Even if race, color, or culture were never mentioned in the book, if all the illustrations were of pasty white heroes slaughtering dark-skinned, brutish humanoids, you and the other leftists around here would be losing your minds, even though those illustrations don't change the "mechanics" at all.  But, hey, double standards is the Lingua Franca of leftists, anyway...

JHKim is doing the typical leftist argument process:

"Its not happening! But if it's happening its not a big deal! And if it is a big deal, it's a good thing, because it's what you deserve to have inflicted on your evil hobby!"

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 13, 2024, 09:32:17 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 13, 2024, 05:20:47 PMChanges like a picture of gay dwarves and a picture of a taco aren't actually completely remaking the game. They're token nods that have no real effect, which is standard for corporate leftism. Make some noise online and thrown in some token nods, and then just do the same thing corporations always do.

OK, so you are asserting that the changes to the illustrations has no real effect on the way the game is played.  So, likewise, if WotC decided to only show white males in the illustrations, it would also have no effect on the game.  By your logic, the present format is the equivalent of deciding to only show white males playing and as characters, since neither affects the game as it is played.

I don't believe that you would respond to the second scenario with the same indifference as you are the present book.  In fact, I bet you would criticize the choice, with hypotheticals about how picturing diverse customers is better for their business, blah, blah, blah.

You're claiming some generic leftist position as you imagine it, but that doesn't describe my positions at all.

I've consistently been nonchalant about politics in games in general. That's not to say that I have no opinions about them, but it's no big deal and I'm happy to buy, read, and play games from all styles and authors of various politics. I've run James Bond 007, Conan RPG (d20), Macho Women With Guns, along with old-style D&D, Call of Cthulhu, and lots of others.

There are plenty of people - including many leftists - who will explode in outrage when an RPG is published that doesn't conform to their politics. However, I'm not one of them.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 13, 2024, 09:32:17 PMThe illustrations in the PHB were chosen for ideological reasons, not artistic ones.  Illustrations in an rpg are intended to set the tone of the game, as well as reflect the designers' conception of how the game should look at the table.  A book full of grinning twinks sets a very different expectation of play than a book full of grim, realistic pictures.

I don't disagree. WotC is a big corporation, and all of this and previous editions were created as products for profit, trying to appeal to particular demographics including ideology -- not for art.

The question is how much I care. I haven't seen the 2024 PHB, and thus I have no opinion on the art yet. I may well hate it. In general, though, I have been fine with games where there are silly whimsical pictures interspersed with grim, realistic pictures. For example:

Quote from: jhkim on September 14, 2024, 02:07:55 AMBunch of pictures from AD&D PHB...

And?  How does that challenge anything I said?  The pictures in the original PHB reflected the way that Gary played his game at the table: sometimes serious and heroic, sometimes whimsical.  You are trying to deflect, but you are proving my point.

Now, would you respond the same way to a PHB that had only light-skinned protagonists killing dark-skinned brutes in its illustrations?   You always talk in vague generalities (unless you find a nit-pick you think you can hang your hat on), but this is a specific case that I asserted would be different.  Tell me that you would have no problem with that game or illustrations, that the illustrations were meaningless corporate signaling with "no effect" on the game or how it is played. 

Quote from: jhkim on September 14, 2024, 02:07:55 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 13, 2024, 09:32:17 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 13, 2024, 05:20:47 PMChanges like a picture of gay dwarves and a picture of a taco aren't actually completely remaking the game. They're token nods that have no real effect, which is standard for corporate leftism. Make some noise online and thrown in some token nods, and then just do the same thing corporations always do.

OK, so you are asserting that the changes to the illustrations has no real effect on the way the game is played.  So, likewise, if WotC decided to only show white males in the illustrations, it would also have no effect on the game.  By your logic, the present format is the equivalent of deciding to only show white males playing and as characters, since neither affects the game as it is played.

I don't believe that you would respond to the second scenario with the same indifference as you are the present book.  In fact, I bet you would criticize the choice, with hypotheticals about how picturing diverse customers is better for their business, blah, blah, blah.

You're claiming some generic leftist position as you imagine it, but that doesn't describe my positions at all.

I've consistently been nonchalant about politics in games in general. That's not to say that I have no opinions about them, but it's no big deal and I'm happy to buy, read, and play games from all styles and authors of various politics. I've run James Bond 007, Conan RPG (d20), Macho Women With Guns, along with old-style D&D, Call of Cthulhu, and lots of others.

There are plenty of people - including many leftists - who will explode in outrage when an RPG is published that doesn't conform to their politics. However, I'm not one of them.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 13, 2024, 09:32:17 PMThe illustrations in the PHB were chosen for ideological reasons, not artistic ones.  Illustrations in an rpg are intended to set the tone of the game, as well as reflect the designers' conception of how the game should look at the table.  A book full of grinning twinks sets a very different expectation of play than a book full of grim, realistic pictures.

I don't disagree. WotC is a big corporation, and all of this and previous editions were created as products for profit, trying to appeal to particular demographics including ideology -- not for art.

The question is how much I care. I haven't seen the 2024 PHB, and thus I have no opinion on the art yet. I may well hate it. In general, though, I have been fine with games where there are silly whimsical pictures interspersed with grim, realistic pictures. For example:

Those are COMEDY pieces, not "whimsical pieces". There's zero expectation of that being an instruction on what your game should actually look like. On the other hand, the Gay Dwarves Making Pastry, the Multicultural Executive Restaurant Meal, and the Noble Family-Oriented Mexican Orcs are not done for laughs, they're done to tell players "This is what a D&D campaign in 2024 should look like, bigot!"

Quote from: Eirikrautha on September 02, 2024, 08:47:27 PMMarketing used to be the attempt to identify people who could be served by your product and explaining the product to them.  Now it is an attempt to convince as many people as possible to buy a product, regardless of whether or not your product will serve a need of theirs.

Not really now.

Marketing likes to push possible customers away with outrage marketing to garner free advertising. And have a convenient scapegoat if the product tanks. "It was those mean ol "ists" fault our product failed! Really! Honest!"
They do it ALOT in near every venue. wotc in particular loves to seed little triggers into their marketing. Fake 5e was laden with it at every turn.

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 13, 2024, 07:41:03 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 13, 2024, 10:19:55 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

The mechanics might support the same old adventuring as always but what about published scenarios that outline the activities that PCs actually do? Granted there are no published adventures for 2024 D&D yet but if the ones published for the 2014 rules in the past few years are any indication then they don't support a whole lot that the mechanics seem to support.

Can you give some examples of what you mean?

Well we can start with Strixhaven. Your introductory grand heroic adventure begins with bravely navigating university life, heroically battling relationships with fellow students, culminating in the big boss fight of final exams. Congratulations! If you make it through this gauntlet you reach 2nd level.

I tell ya, its hard to contain the excitement. 

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 17, 2024, 09:11:20 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 13, 2024, 07:41:03 PM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 13, 2024, 10:19:55 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on September 12, 2024, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 12, 2024, 07:17:11 PMThat's kind of the point on the new PHB: everything heroic is "evil" to the left, and everything traditional is evil to the left, so all they have left is having the PCs eating diversity foods while showing off your outfit and talking about your sex life. THAT is their vision of the future of D&D.

Well, the (largely) shit art in the 2024 PHB might follow along with your take on their "vision" but the mechanics don't do anything to back that up. The amount of game mechanics that apply to "eating diversity foods" or wearing fashionable outfits or talking about (or having) sex is practically nil. Instead the mechanics are focussed on the same type of adventuring they always have been.

The mechanics might support the same old adventuring as always but what about published scenarios that outline the activities that PCs actually do? Granted there are no published adventures for 2024 D&D yet but if the ones published for the 2014 rules in the past few years are any indication then they don't support a whole lot that the mechanics seem to support.

Can you give some examples of what you mean?

Well we can start with Strixhaven. Your introductory grand heroic adventure begins with bravely navigating university life, heroically battling relationships with fellow students, culminating in the big boss fight of final exams. Congratulations! If you make it through this gauntlet you reach 2nd level.

I tell ya, its hard to contain the excitement. 

The irony here is that something like Strixhaven might be a fun "palate cleanser" mini-campaign, but D&D rules seem to be a poor fit for it.  Which is part of the issue.  Trying to shoehorn D&D rules into a weird storytelling university setting where your goals are to pass your exams and ask the cute Tiefling in Defense Against the Dark Arts to prom isn't the sort of campaign that D&D is suited for.  It could be amusing to play in, but not using D&D.

Quote from: Nobleshield on September 17, 2024, 12:51:02 PMThe irony here is that something like Strixhaven might be a fun "palate cleanser" mini-campaign, but D&D rules seem to be a poor fit for it.  Which is part of the issue.  Trying to shoehorn D&D rules into a weird storytelling university setting where your goals are to pass your exams and ask the cute Tiefling in Defense Against the Dark Arts to prom isn't the sort of campaign that D&D is suited for.  It could be amusing to play in, but not using D&D.

  Unfortunately, D&D's market dominance gives WotC and other publishers an incentive to try to squeeze anything they can into the D&D brand and/or system. This is the key reason I think D&D's disproportionate success has been bad for both D&D and for the broader TTRPG hobby. Sad to say, nothing's likely to fix that at this point.