Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2024, 10:33:05 PMGreetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was.

That's how the publisher is selling it.

What Is Shadowdark RPG?

Shadowdark is what an old-school fantasy adventure game would look like after being redesigned with 50 years of innovation.

They are trying to present this as some big innovation and it's not.   

I regret not joining the Shadowdark Kickstarter. I can see the arguments on both sides, but what's very clear is the author did her work most bigly - both in game design and marketing.

Kudos to her.

Double kudos for somehow staying out of the culture war.

As for innovation, I'm an OSR guy so I'm less impressed with "new ideas" versus "proven ideas that enhance actual play"

Looking forward to trying out Shadowdark at the table.

BTW, I also see the appeal of OSE. I too love B/X and clean modern layouts will definitely garner attention.

Quote from: yosemitemike on September 01, 2024, 01:25:17 AM

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2024, 10:33:05 PMGreetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was.

That's how the publisher is selling it.

What Is Shadowdark RPG?

Shadowdark is what an old-school fantasy adventure game would look like after being redesigned with 50 years of innovation.

They are trying to present this as some big innovation and it's not. 

That's not what that sentence is saying.  That sentence is referring to innovation that has been introduced to D&D since 1974.  Such as ascending armor class.  That sentence is not saying that Shadowdark is introducing new innovative concepts that nobody has seen until 2024.

Quote from: Spinachcat on September 01, 2024, 01:53:59 AMDouble kudos for somehow staying out of the culture war.

A big plus.

All of this yappin seems like picking at nits to me. Is the game good? Are people having fun playing it? Has the writer/publisher/artist managed to not murder a bus full of orphans? Then I'm pretty good with it.

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2024, 10:33:05 PMGreetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was. Most fans of ShadowDark also have not claimed that the game is some kind of Tyrannosaurus Rex in "Innovation."

What IS INNOVATIVE about ShadowDark is the precision in which Kelsey has taken inspiration from other games--like the "Funnel" and crazy magic from DCC, elements of BX, AD&D, and 5E, and blended them all together, and then presented her creation in a very professional, appealing manner.

And also accompanied her work with awesome, "Old School" black & white artwork. NOT Jenny Craig fat fucking Elves, "Mexican Orcs", or gay fucking Dwarves baking pastries while trying to engage in a circle jerk.

None of that BS. Just awesome, inspiring, sword & sorcery artwork.

And not a word of fucking "Culture War" politics. Not in ShadowDark, and not outside the game in any interviews that Kelsey has participated in.

Besides all that, I *LIKE* how she has carefully selected and blended great ideas and concepts from other games, while leaving those games' baggage, awkward mechanics, and BS behind. I don't give a fuck about DCC's weird dice, and my patience for endless charts embraced by DCC is a thing in my rear-view mirror like Rolemaster. No thanks. Kelsey has taken what is good, and made it BETTER. THAT is what is "Innovative" and fun, and special about ShadowDark. All the while, ruthlessly keeping the ShadowDark game focused on being quick, simple, and brutal.

I wish the ShadowDark haters would get these concepts rammed like a fucking brick through their fucking heads, and stopped opening their mouth with baseless, stupid criticisms and BS claims about the game that they clearly do not comprehend. Most of them DON'T PLAY ShadowDark--and most of them also don't own the fucking book, either.

The ShadowDark book is also an absolute pleasure to read. You won't need a degree in Forgotten Realms Studies to know what is going on. Furthermore, the ShadowDark book is crafted--yes, CRAFTED--in material, style, layout, and font size, readability, to be USED AT THE GAME TABLE. Running ShadowDark is a blast! Running a ShadowDark game is simple, fun, and intuitive.

Anyone on the fence should dive in. It is a fantastic game!

Those just not interested, for whatever reason, cool. YOU DO YOU.

The ShadowDark haters should just get fucked and get a fucking life.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

SHARK nails it as usual. For me SD is a great streamlined version of 5e D&D, with a ton of good ideas from the OSR presented very effectively, & immaculate design & layout. It's a pleasure to run. & no Woke politics!

Quote from: yosemitemike on September 01, 2024, 01:25:17 AMShadowdark is what an old-school fantasy adventure game would look like after being redesigned with 50 years of innovation.

That's entirely accurate IMO.

Quote from: Spinachcat on September 01, 2024, 01:53:59 AMBTW, I also see the appeal of OSE. I too love B/X and clean modern layouts will definitely garner attention.

I love B/X too, but running a BECMI campaign for a few years recently I really got to hate looking up the Saving Throw tables.

Quote from: Spobo on August 31, 2024, 12:24:29 PMI don't like Shadowdark's fans, primarily, but the game itself and the author are fine.

It has left wing fans, who ofc are annoying, and right wing fans (the Best of Men). Some OSR Taleban (who tend to be more right wingers) have reflexively attacked it for IMO stupid & innaccurate reasons. I initially thought maybe the hype might be left-wing/Politically Correct shilling (See the Lesbian Game Designer! Bow before her Majesty, ye Chuds!), but no, it was very clear from studying the free Quickstart guides that it was an excellently designed game. It helped that my friend Upper_Krust (who makes me look like a Commie Pinko Liberal) had already gone over it, & recommended it to me.

OSR retroclones are interesting to me, but definitely secondary on my list of gaming needs. I've already got and am satisfied with Basic Fantasy, Advanced Labyrinth Lord, and Old School Essentials. I don't feel like paying $60 for a book that is of dubious utility to me like Shadowdark. That there is controversy surrounding it just reinforces my disinterest.

To me, Shadowdark looks like Mothership and Mork Borg, internet darlings that do not give me as a gamer anything new or useful for the time & money investment it would take to acquire and find a use for. If you just collect games and don't play them, I can understand wanting to get the Latest Hotness - I'm just not the target consumer audience.

 

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2024, 07:19:22 AMOSR retroclones are interesting to me, but definitely secondary on my list of gaming needs. I've already got and am satisfied with Basic Fantasy, Advanced Labyrinth Lord, and Old School Essentials. I don't feel like paying $60 for a book that is of dubious utility to me like Shadowdark. That there is controversy surrounding it just reinforces my disinterest.

To me, Shadowdark looks like Mothership and Mork Borg, internet darlings that do not give me as a gamer anything new or useful for the time & money investment it would take to acquire and find a use for. If you just collect games and don't play them, I can understand wanting to get the Latest Hotness - I'm just not the target consumer audience.

 

Have you looked at the free Quickstarts? It's not a retro-clone, although it superficially looks like one until you read it. It may well not be your cup of tea, it most resembles the 2014 5e Basic Rules heavily drifted.

Quote from: S'mon on September 01, 2024, 07:36:48 AM

Quote from: jeff37923 on September 01, 2024, 07:19:22 AMOSR retroclones are interesting to me, but definitely secondary on my list of gaming needs. I've already got and am satisfied with Basic Fantasy, Advanced Labyrinth Lord, and Old School Essentials. I don't feel like paying $60 for a book that is of dubious utility to me like Shadowdark. That there is controversy surrounding it just reinforces my disinterest.

To me, Shadowdark looks like Mothership and Mork Borg, internet darlings that do not give me as a gamer anything new or useful for the time & money investment it would take to acquire and find a use for. If you just collect games and don't play them, I can understand wanting to get the Latest Hotness - I'm just not the target consumer audience.

 

Have you looked at the free Quickstarts? It's not a retro-clone, although it superficially looks like one until you read it. It may well not be your cup of tea, it most resembles the 2014 5e Basic Rules heavily drifted.

After the 5E playtest, I'm really not interested in the playstyle that 5E creates (the long rest, short rest mechanic doesn't do it for me). So, no I have not. I just have no interest, even negative interest now that there is some controversy about the like or dislike of this game.

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2024, 10:33:05 PMGreetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was. Most fans of ShadowDark also have not claimed that the game is some kind of Tyrannosaurus Rex in "Innovation."

What IS INNOVATIVE about ShadowDark is the precision in which Kelsey has taken inspiration from other games--like the "Funnel" and crazy magic from DCC, elements of BX, AD&D, and 5E, and blended them all together, and then presented her creation in a very professional, appealing manner.

And also accompanied her work with awesome, "Old School" black & white artwork. NOT Jenny Craig fat fucking Elves, "Mexican Orcs", or gay fucking Dwarves baking pastries while trying to engage in a circle jerk.

None of that BS. Just awesome, inspiring, sword & sorcery artwork.

And not a word of fucking "Culture War" politics. Not in ShadowDark, and not outside the game in any interviews that Kelsey has participated in.

Besides all that, I *LIKE* how she has carefully selected and blended great ideas and concepts from other games, while leaving those games' baggage, awkward mechanics, and BS behind. I don't give a fuck about DCC's weird dice, and my patience for endless charts embraced by DCC is a thing in my rear-view mirror like Rolemaster. No thanks. Kelsey has taken what is good, and made it BETTER. THAT is what is "Innovative" and fun, and special about ShadowDark. All the while, ruthlessly keeping the ShadowDark game focused on being quick, simple, and brutal.

I wish the ShadowDark haters would get these concepts rammed like a fucking brick through their fucking heads, and stopped opening their mouth with baseless, stupid criticisms and BS claims about the game that they clearly do not comprehend. Most of them DON'T PLAY ShadowDark--and most of them also don't own the fucking book, either.

The ShadowDark book is also an absolute pleasure to read. You won't need a degree in Forgotten Realms Studies to know what is going on. Furthermore, the ShadowDark book is crafted--yes, CRAFTED--in material, style, layout, and font size, readability, to be USED AT THE GAME TABLE. Running ShadowDark is a blast! Running a ShadowDark game is simple, fun, and intuitive.

Anyone on the fence should dive in. It is a fantastic game!

Those just not interested, for whatever reason, cool. YOU DO YOU.

The ShadowDark haters should just get fucked and get a fucking life.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I love how ridiculously defensive people get over it. This is what I'm talking about.

"Most fans of ShadowDark also have not claimed that the game is some kind of Tyrannosaurus Rex in "Innovation.""

They sometimes do. Usually it's indirectly by leaving out information. The core demographic is 5e players who haven't played anything else, and it gets presented alongside Pathfinder 2e, DC20, and MCDM as exit points for people after the OGL scandal. That was a huge reason why it became so popular and the author herself says this. That's fine. There is no problem with this. However, very few people do the minimum effort of explaining that the game came out of the OSR movement, so it comes across that they think that this is the first old school game and possibly even the first rules light game.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF9uz3GNORU

Dungeon Masterpiece, like most D&D channels, is aimed at 5e players. In the video he has a bunch of stuff he says that make Shadowdark successful like random tables, a focus on dungeon crawling and lighting, and a unified mechanic for older editions, and he says that this makes it stand out "against all other RPGs on the market" with the 2024 PHB on screen. Obviously that's not true. If you're someone who knows what they're talking about, you could have been playing with all the mechanics in Shadowdark for the last 5-20 years depending on what it is, including in games where a lot or most of them were collected together. Almost all recent OSR games incorporate 5e advantage/disadvantage and other mechanics. Yes, we know about the presentation. The presentation, the presentation, the layout, the layout, we know. It's really good. That's not the point. I'm just talking about the rules and what people say about them.

Back to the example, he says he likes DCC in some of his comments on other videos, but he doesn't have a video about it. He has an OSR video where he somewhat disparagingly compares the whole movement to carrot cake. There are people like Questing Beast who cover OSR games all the time, but that's not who I'm talking about, and from what I have seen and read, they're not representative of the general hype machine around the game.

It's like when someone tells a joke, then someone else tells it louder and gets the laughs. When you point this out the defenders just keep repeating "But they told it louder though! You have to speak up! You're just jealous and hate success!" That may be true for some people, but that isn't the only problem when the party thinks that they came up with it.

Quote from: SHARK on August 31, 2024, 10:33:05 PMGreetings!

Yep, ShadowDark is awesome! No, ShadowDark is not some huge groundbreaking achievement in "Innovation". Fuck that. It doesn't need to be, and Kelsey never claimed it was. Most fans of ShadowDark also have not claimed that the game is some kind of Tyrannosaurus Rex in "Innovation."

What IS INNOVATIVE about ShadowDark is the precision in which Kelsey has taken inspiration from other games--like the "Funnel" and crazy magic from DCC, elements of BX, AD&D, and 5E, and blended them all together, and then presented her creation in a very professional, appealing manner.

And also accompanied her work with awesome, "Old School" black & white artwork. NOT Jenny Craig fat fucking Elves, "Mexican Orcs", or gay fucking Dwarves baking pastries while trying to engage in a circle jerk.

None of that BS. Just awesome, inspiring, sword & sorcery artwork.

And not a word of fucking "Culture War" politics. Not in ShadowDark, and not outside the game in any interviews that Kelsey has participated in.

Besides all that, I *LIKE* how she has carefully selected and blended great ideas and concepts from other games, while leaving those games' baggage, awkward mechanics, and BS behind. I don't give a fuck about DCC's weird dice, and my patience for endless charts embraced by DCC is a thing in my rear-view mirror like Rolemaster. No thanks. Kelsey has taken what is good, and made it BETTER. THAT is what is "Innovative" and fun, and special about ShadowDark. All the while, ruthlessly keeping the ShadowDark game focused on being quick, simple, and brutal.

I wish the ShadowDark haters would get these concepts rammed like a fucking brick through their fucking heads, and stopped opening their mouth with baseless, stupid criticisms and BS claims about the game that they clearly do not comprehend. Most of them DON'T PLAY ShadowDark--and most of them also don't own the fucking book, either.

The ShadowDark book is also an absolute pleasure to read. You won't need a degree in Forgotten Realms Studies to know what is going on. Furthermore, the ShadowDark book is crafted--yes, CRAFTED--in material, style, layout, and font size, readability, to be USED AT THE GAME TABLE. Running ShadowDark is a blast! Running a ShadowDark game is simple, fun, and intuitive.

Anyone on the fence should dive in. It is a fantastic game!

Those just not interested, for whatever reason, cool. YOU DO YOU.

The ShadowDark haters should just get fucked and get a fucking life.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Not having to roll a d7, is definitely A plus.  That thing is a dud, in the history of dice.

Shadowdark definitely "stands on the shoulders of giants" - both the OSR and 5e were needed to make it possible.

My one player who dislikes it is the 4e fan and heavy charopper. She was pissed her PC died today.

Re rests @Jeff it has no short rests but has full recovery on an 8 hour long rest, the 5e DNA is pretty obvious. Also has bounded accuracy, advantage etc

Quote from: S'mon on September 01, 2024, 02:39:32 PMRe rests @Jeff it has no short rests but has full recovery on an 8 hour long rest, the 5e DNA is pretty obvious. Also has bounded accuracy, advantage etc

S'mon, I think that you are a great guy, but you are demonstrating a behavior that turns me off of a game system. The pushiness of fans of the system to play it. I had my fill of that with 4E, 5E, and WotC Organized Play because I was branded a homophobic racist locally since those versions of D&D don't interest me and I was uninterested in playing. Sorry, but everything that you have said that you find good about the game, I associate with wokeness and cancel culture.

Granted, that's my hangup, but with several of the internet darlings out now (Mothership and Mork Borg), I can achieve the same level of play enjoyment without spending money on stylish artistic crap or gameplay one trick ponies. Shadowdark is a current hotness, but the price of it is equal to my monthly cell phone bill.