Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 08, 2023, 03:11:46 AM
Did anyone have a positive experience with the 2e players option stuff? My own wasn't terrible at all, and I did make a lot of good use out of the critical tables in combat and tactics and spells and magic at the time...if you ran gold and glory now, would you utilize the players option books any at all?

In my games, I use weapon groups/weapon mastery and Critical Hit method I with the addition of treble damage when exceeding AC by 10. I find pretty much everything else in Combat & Tactics slows my game down too much at the table.

Skills and Powers is more work than my players are willing to do, and is way too easy to break the game without major supervision. Spells and Magic is generally fine with some oversight, but again, probably more work than my players are willing to do, and IMO if one player is using it, everyone needs to.

Over the past 2 years, I've been able to acquire enough very reasonably priced copies (less than $30) of great condition PHBs that I could add to the copies I've had since I was 12 to not need FG&G. I do *have* a copy, but it's my opinion that the 2e PHB is such an improvement over the 1e PHB in explaining how to actually play the game (with the caveat that it's far less flavorful) that I don't believe FG&G is even necessary to own as you can get POD copies of the PHB/MM/DMG for around $60 altogether. Granted, I prefer *reading* the High Gygaxian of the 1e PHB, but OSRIC does such a great job of of actually making 1e actually playable for someone that has never done so before that I'd recommend people own both if you're playing 1e.

I'll add that while 1e and 2e are largely compatible, the 1e and 2e to-hit tables do have some differences. In 1e, you have repeating 20s in the table, meaning some monsters with low ACs will be easier to hit whereas in 2e, the tables progress smoothly. Also, 2e monsters are generally a bit stronger than the same monsters in 1e. Dragons and giants being a prime example.

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 08, 2023, 10:00:46 AM

I played AD&D 1st edition and had the PHB.  Lots of information.  The layout left a lot to be desired but there was a good bit of information in it.'

Maybe I should just look for used 1st edition books.  Of course I have OSE which is basically AD&D so that would really be duplicating things.

OSE is a b/x clone, but perhaps you meant OSRIC

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 08, 2023, 10:00:46 AM

Quote from: Chainsaw on May 07, 2023, 01:12:57 PM
I started with 2E b/c that's what the mall bookstores had, then moved to 1E once I could get my hands on it. For me, 2E is better organized and more accessible, but really boring and bland compared with 1E's content, themes and writing. Maybe akin to a grocery-getter station wagon vs a classic muscle car. I mean, sure, both get you from A to B, but why not go in style?

I played AD&D 1st edition and had the PHB.  Lots of information.  The layout left a lot to be desired but there was a good bit of information in it.'

Maybe I should just look for used 1st edition books.  Of course I have OSE which is basically AD&D so that would really be duplicating things.

OSE is by no means AD&D, even in its "Advanced" form.  It is B/Xified AD&D and is quite a bit different.  I like it for what it is, but that's most definitely not AD&D.  You could get that AD&D experience via OSRIC I suppose, though the bland writing and crappy art make that unattractive to me.  But I have solid copies of all my 1e books so it doesn't matter.  A few years ago you could still get really nice copies of the 1e books at good prices at places like Half Price books, but those days appear to be passing quickly as used bookstores close and online markets drive prices up.

As for the original question, the only 2e stuff I ever bought was some of the monster books and a couple adventures.  It was pretty much the edition that drove me away from the official D&D brand.  So FG&G has zero appeal for me.  And nowadays we're mostly playing Swords & Wizardry.

Quote from: Persimmon on May 08, 2023, 10:17:25 AM
A few years ago you could still get really nice copies of the 1e books at good prices at places like Half Price books, but those days appear to be passing quickly as used bookstores close and online markets drive prices up.

The PODs on Drivethru are $20 for a hardback these days for people that don't have originals and understandably don't want to pay the inflated prices.

I also have and played the original 2e. I strongly preferred the feel of 1e. The 1e DMG is probably the single greatest book created for the hobby.

Stock art and typos probably negate any QOL picked up with 2e. I doubt a group would remain engaged long, unless they had some of the original 2e books and wanted to play for the nostalgia.

Going the opposite way, several years ago I threw myself into the ODD supplements. It is amazing to see the genesis of 1e laced throughout the writings. Lots of peaks and valleys across the supplements.

Quote from: shoplifter on May 08, 2023, 10:10:01 AM
OSE is a b/x clone, but perhaps you meant OSRIC

No I meant OSE.  What I said was incorrect.  Sorry about that.

Quote from: Persimmon on May 08, 2023, 10:17:25 AM
OSE is by no means AD&D, even in its "Advanced" form. 

Yes, as I said to shoplifter my comment was incorrect.  I am going to go back and correct it

No experience with FG&G, some with 2e.

I like the attack progression from 2e picture above, very similar to what I've use in my Dark Fantasy Basic (despite being a B/X neoclone).

Basically, it is +level for Fighters, +1/3 level for MU, and +2/3 for the rest (which is a bit more generous than 2e).

I find that while the 1e DMG is superb, the 2e PCs rules are much better - bard, druid, weapon versus armor, etc.

Also, the 2e Monstrous Manual is maybe my favorite monster book ever. You could use it with 1e, sure, but might be a reason to use 2e as a basis instead.

Quote from: ForgottenF on May 06, 2023, 03:27:53 PM
Isn't it just an AD&D 2e retroclone?

It's pretty much a retroclone of 2e. It is basically the Core 3 (PHB/DMG/MM) compiled with enough touches here and there to keep it from copyright infringement. The game plays almost the same as 2e in over 90% of the stuff my table goes through (I am sure some outlier function might have been missed, but I got a lot of the fighting, movement, visibility, reactions, special tables used). Think of FG&G as a spare OSR AD&D 2e Rules Encyclopedia.

I like 2e better than 1e in many things, like Punching and Wrestling Table, Initiative & its Options, Skills & its Options, its general organization for reference, etc. But overall the games are mostly interoperable. So I don't perceive it as an either/or situation. Besides FG&G works mostly seamlessly with any 2e setting product rules (y'know, like Initiative  ), and there's a lot of good 2e setting product out there.

The creator is still circling the Dragonsfoot Forum, last I visited, and has been a very congenial and earnest guy. He is a devotee to preserving AD&D and 2e was a niche that needed filling and I believe he has done an admirable job. An AD&D 2e core 3 rulebooks Rules Encyclopedia bundle is fantastic for archival use because you get your rules reference usage without having to expose your aging AD&D 2e stuff to additional wear & tear when travelling.

Hope that helps! 

This is of no help, I'm sure, but I purchased FG&G, flipped through it, and gave it away as a gift. As others have said/implied, I'd much rather use my AD&D 2nd stuff (keeping the minor differences between the two games ain't worth what's left of my brain power).

That's kinda its strength, though: since it hews so closely to original AD&D 2nd, if you DON'T HAVE the original FG&G is a good substitute.

Quote from: FASAfan on May 10, 2023, 03:46:42 PM
This is of no help, I'm sure, but I purchased FG&G, flipped through it, and gave it away as a gift. As others have said/implied, I'd much rather use my AD&D 2nd stuff.

That said, if you DON'T HAVE the original AD&D stuff, FG&G is a good substitute at a cursory glance.

Chiming in here finally because I think this is a pretty much how I feel, even though I still own my hardback of FG&G along with all my 2nd edition stuff. It's useful as a reference, but if I ever play 2nd again I'd just use the real books. It's miles ahead of OSRIC though, of which I got rid of all my copies because quite frankly the decisions made to differentiate it from AD&D were enough to make it and entirely different game AND it lost the charm of AD&D in the process. If you understand why OSRIC exists, this is fine, but then they tried to push it as an actual substitute for AD&D, which is laughable. If I want to play AD&D, OSRIC ain't it. Contrast that with FG&G which IS a legit substitute.

So basically, FG&G is acceptable if you want a single volume 2nd edition AD&D book as a "good enough" reference for dirt cheap. If you were to use it to play a game, it's serviceable. But there's no substitute for the original books.

A little more OSRIC context for some newer folks.

OSRIC was originally conceived only as a few key chapters as a vehicle to allow for publishing AD&D modules. It was intentionally written simply and clearly with an eye toward module publishers, not as flowery, exciting competition for the original books. People started asking for "the rest," so the makers obliged to the extent they felt legally covered at the time. Remember this was 15+ years ago when the ability to push boundaries was less certain. Those guys genuinely took personal risk and blazed trails.

The masses of second- and third-wave cloners all skewed closer and closer to their source material because they had the benefit of hindsight, the safety of seeing what had happened with OSRIC. I mean, there would be no FGG or OSE without people seeing OSRIC not get sued into oblivion. Newer clones also have more of an eye toward making money on the system itself, so naturally the whole package there is more consumer-oriented.

Anyway, to be clear, all of the OSRIC makers would heartily and fiercely recommend using AD&D if you want to play AD&D and have access to the books. They never intended for people to choose OSRIC over AD&D... for them, it's AD&D every time, no brainer.

Quote from: Brad on May 10, 2023, 03:54:08 PM
So basically, FG&G is acceptable if you want a single volume 2nd edition AD&D book as a "good enough" reference for dirt cheap. If you were to use it to play a game, it's serviceable. But there's no substitute for the original books.

That's great but it's also hard to find the original books for a decent price.  If I had them then I would play them, but I dont and I dont feel like paying $70 for one book.

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 10, 2023, 04:16:24 PM

That's great but it's also hard to find the original books for a decent price.  If I had them then I would play them, but I dont and I dont feel like paying $70 for one book.

$23 for a POD of the reprint PHB.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/16868/Players-Handbook-Revised-2e?src=hottest_filtered&filters=0_0_0_0_0_45347_0_0

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/17552/Dungeon-Master-Guide-Revised-2e?src=also_purchased&filters=0_0_0_0_0_45347_0_0

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/16865/Monstrous-Manual-2e?src=also_purchased&filters=0_0_0_0_0_45347_0_0

Could totally understand not wanting to give WotC any money though. Over the past couple years I've been picking up any good condition & reasonably priced PHBs I can find to supplement my originals for an entire table, paying around $25 a piece though I'd had to snap them up quickly. I've noticed a lot of the splats have started to increase in price over the past year as well, and those aren't available as PODs if you want physical copies.

Quote from: GhostNinja on May 10, 2023, 04:16:24 PM

Quote from: Brad on May 10, 2023, 03:54:08 PM
So basically, FG&G is acceptable if you want a single volume 2nd edition AD&D book as a "good enough" reference for dirt cheap. If you were to use it to play a game, it's serviceable. But there's no substitute for the original books.

That's great but it's also hard to find the original books for a decent price.  If I had them then I would play them, but I dont and I dont feel like paying $70 for one book.

All dependent upon how much you want 2e in any case.  They could offer me money to take those books and I'd still happily decline.