More generically, "sell me" efforts are unsurpisingly like commercials. If I am not in the market, I'm not going to pay them much attention. But if I become interested in something, then I am going to pay attention and possibly go back and ask for detail.

One things for sure... I give little regards for those who are willing to recommend a given game for everything. I mean if it gets to that point, it seems to me you have no capability to distinguish your excitement from actual ground truth about a game, and I will regard your opinion accordingly. No game is the perfect answer for everything.

Yes, I am thinking "Wushu fans at Big Purple" as I type this.

Quote from: droogThat guy is one delusional old fuck. If you ask me.

That guy invented Scooby Doo!

I have never participated in any, but I think short demos, maybe 20 minutes or so, where I can jump in and try the settings/systems that interest me would be the most effective, where I could then discuss details and ask questions afterwards.  It's such a low commitment and lets you check out the system right away.  Also, I'm not good at conceiving of mechanics in my head. I really need to do them to get them.

I've worked in sales and sales support for a major company, and I learned to respect top salespeople for what they do and their skills, so I'm more sympathetic to the hard sell, even if it's badly done.

Maw: Good stuff!

The best way to repel me are buzzwords like "rules-light/simple/narrative/cinematic/realistic". Thanks pal, but I already have everything of this at least twice already in my cupboard, so if this is the only strength of your game, get lost.

Another good way to repel me are comparisons along the line of "point-buy à GURPS, but simpler" or "more flexible than D&D". Comparisons to other games are of course a good short-cut to tell about a game within short time, but if you can't highlight the good parts of your game without mocking the opposition, it's probably a lame-ass rip-off.


The best way to sell me on is to show the new neat ideas and/or to highlight how the rules support the game you envision in a way that wasn't done before.
TRoS empowers emotion-driven, gritty fights with a deadly combat system and efficiency-increases by investing into a cause? Sold. Wushu[1] empowers narrative-laden cinematics by giving the more dice the more you tell? Sold. Shadowrun offers a highly tactical break&enter game with the prmanent usage of pool resource management and detailed break&enter rules? Sold.

[1] It's better than its fanboys, really. (OK, not a deed that is hard to accomplish...)

Maybe I'm off base here, but there's advertising for role playing games? I mean the most I've ever seen outside the internet (Which I'll address in a minute) is a few pages of adverts in comic books.

I have never seen a commercial advertising any RPG, or anything even vaguely RPG related. (This may be a symptom of not owning a television for the last 3 years or so.) No bill boards. Rarely even more than a few shelves at the chain book stores.

If they're putting money into advertising it's missing me completely.

The internet is where I see some sales pitches, but because I control my browsing I rarely interact with anything that doesn't outright interest me. Combined with ad blockers, image blockers and pop up blockers I'm not very often exposed to adverts I don't want to see. Same goes for forums and chat stuff-unless i choose to look at it, it's lost on me.

"Sell Me" threads for free products (like JAGS or Wushu) really burn me.

Recommendations for the same product by the same people for every situation under the sun (Wushu and Exalted) immediately make my fanboimeter spike.

Meeting with the Forge Exodus people at GenCon was very interesting. They were mostly good salesmen. The only times I felt pressured to buy were by new kids I'd never heard of. The veterans were enthusiastic but not pushy, polite, and charmingly ouotgoing, and they were demoing games like madmen. I also had extremely positive personal talks with a number of them. Unfortunately I never met with TonyLB, who - like Koltar - was never at his booth when I walked by looking for him. I think many of the more traditional game designers could take lessons from these guys in sales deportment and manner.

-clash

For me, when I ask about a game, I'm really just trying to get a general vibe off of those who have played it.

Good experiences, bad experiences and everything in between helps get my mind in gear as what to possibly expect from the game.

If I'm asking about a game, I'm already half sold on it anyway after having done my homework (ie. rules system, publisher info, freebie shit, works in the pipeline or already published, etc.  I also will take a run by the inevitable company forum just to see what the typical game user "sounds" like).  Casting the "what do you think about game x," net out just lets me get a bit bigger perspective.

I will not go for a generalized, "I'm wanting to play this type of game, what should I use," question as that just opens up the floor for every dip to come along with their pet system.  I shudder when I see these type questions go up.

Here's what I like to know:

• Brief lowdown on the presumed setting (if any).


• How complex is it - and the advocate should have some sort of context for his assessment ("combat is more complex than D&D, but overall the game is less complex than Ars Magica"). Do the players need to read the rules, or can they be explained or summarized easily? Is there lots of number crunching?


• Which games is it similar to? Who is the auidence supposed to be?


• What sorts of adventures and campaigns is it geared towards running?


• How professional is the formating and presentation?

The important thing is context. If you've only ever read or played are D&D and Superkewl Game X, and you think Superkewl Game X is the best game evar, then you're going to need to work harder to sell me.

A game, and any other product for that matter, shouldn't have to be "sold" by someone pushing it - it should be able to sell itself or it isn't that commercially viable. If someone has got a bunch of threads telling  people how supercool a game is, I'm already skeptical - like I was with the Star Wars Saga Edition. I want to pick up a game and look through it before buying it - shrinkwrapped game products are like economic land mines to me.

A gauge I use to judge games is the local used book store. I check the gaming section and see what's moving and what's not. Traveller (any version) and D&D come in and almost immediately get sold, Vampire and Exalted hang out on the shelves for weeks or months. This also tells me what games are being played in the area.

Back to Star Wars Saga Edition as an example, I've seen the game get bought off the shelves pretty quickly in non-used book stores and in the used book store the shelf is filling up with d20 Star Wars and d6 Star Wars games that have seen some use. I'm thinking that the SWSE is being bought and is replacing the previous games for a significant number of local gamers. This made me decide to check out SWSE more than any "sell me" thread about the game.

Long podcasts where hosts smarter than I am break explain the rules and setting in appropriate detail that I can listen to passively while doing the dishes or fixing something are also an excellent way for me to determine if a gaming product is right for me.

Quote from: flyingmice"Sell Me" threads for free products (like JAGS or Wushu) really burn me.

BAHHHH! I can't stand that! And when you point out to the OP that they can simply download it (for nothing) and scrutinize it themselves, they counter that they don't want to even look at it until they are sold on it. At which point I move on to another thread.

Quote from: JohnnyWannabeBAHHHH! I can't stand that! And when you point out to the OP that they can simply download it (for nothing) and scrutinize it themselves, they counter that they don't want to even look at it until they are sold on it. At which point I move on to another thread.

Nailed it, Johnny!

-clash

I've never read a "Sell me on ___" thread except for the one on Koltar, so if you're looking to sell me on something, don't bother going there.

Things that sell me on a game:

• People whose tastes I disagree with bashing a popular game. I picked up and loved Exalted thanks to the Pundit's bashing of it. I also picked up and never played Nobilis because of his bashing combined with the diceless nature.
• An introductory adventure. I'd much rather read through a short adventure and then try it out with my group then shuffle through pages of peoples' opinions on it. If Nobilis had an intro adventure, I'd probably have played it at least once.
• People whose tastes I agree with grooving on it. If Doc Rotwang! posts about how his new campaign of Kung Fu Squirrels is going great, I'll probably check it out.
• Names like Squirrel Attack and All Flesh Must Be Eaten. Games that are quite obviously meant as games and not vehicles for drama or philosophy are cool.
• Ongoing company support. Apart from some things that strike me as being destined for one-offs because of my group's style compared to how the game is built (AFMBE and Squirrel Attack for instance), I want a game I can play long term. Having more products coming down the pipe and a company forum where I can get questions answered by fans and staff is great.

Things that turn me off:

• Don't tell me your game is Indie, Mainstream, Forge-driven, Tradional, or whatever. I don't want to know what category you built it for, because I want a game that can handle multiple styles without the rules driving me in one direction.
• Self promotion. I'm too much of a cynic, and will automatically disbelieve when a designer tells me how great his idea is.
• Stupid, pretentious-sounding, and meaningless names. It doesn't matter how cool the game is, if it's named something like "Shabi al Hiri Roach" or "Mere Sapnon ki Rani" I'm not going to read it.
• A hyper focused game. I don't want to play a game about dim sum delivery girls feeding hungry ghosts under the tutelage of the Goddess of Compassion in Anywhere, Japan. I might like the system and want to use it to play something different, but probably not, since I'm not going to read anything that focused.
• A game with no focus. I need something to grab onto, even if that something is as wide open as "criminals in a magical future" or "generic fantasy ass-kicking." A generic system that expects to sell me rules and then later sell me settings won't work.
• Not taking no for an answer. If our tastes differ, that's cool. But if you keep trying to explain to me how great the game is even when I've explained why it's not for me, you're just going to ruin any future chances of selling me on a game.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadOne things for sure... I give little regards for those who are willing to recommend a given game for everything. I mean if it gets to that point, it seems to me you have no capability to distinguish your excitement from actual ground truth about a game, and I will regard your opinion accordingly. No game is the perfect answer for everything.

It's even worse when the game they recommend clearly doesn't meet most or all the criteria that the original poster asked for.  For example, "I want a crunchy realistic system with a comprehensive equipment list and a historical overview section to run a standard Western.  What should I use?" is answered by "Try Risus!" or "Try Exalted!" or "Try Dogs in the Vineyard!"