Quote from: CyberzombieYou seem to be forgetting that humans have a favoured class, too.  They just get to choose it.

True.dat I forgot for a moment.

QuoteEither that or you're just being a contrary asshat.

I am being something, that's for sure.

Quote from: CyberzombieThanks.    Interesting ideas.  Not interesting enough for me to buy the books, but very interesting.

I'm ambivalent about having bought those books. They do have cool stuff like the racial substitution levels, and I like the Goliath race in Races of Stone. Plus, they have statblocks for "generic" or "typical" character types for each race, and they have some interesting Prestige Classes with examples of each (which means even more nifty statblocks to yoink). Beyond that, though, I have to say there isn't much in those books that interest me. This is especially true for the write-up of halflings, which perpetuates the whole "kenderized" version of halflings 3e came up with.

Quote from: ColonelHardissonI'm ambivalent about having bought those books. They do have cool stuff like the racial substitution levels, and I like the Goliath race in Races of Stone. Plus, they have statblocks for "generic" or "typical" character types for each race, and they have some interesting Prestige Classes with examples of each (which means even more nifty statblocks to yoink). Beyond that, though, I have to say there isn't much in those books that interest me. This is especially true for the write-up of halflings, which perpetuates the whole "kenderized" version of halflings 3e came up with.

If I had paid for my PDFs of those books I would have been very, very upset. As it is I enjoy them for the 20-30 pages of useful material in each.

On the subject of halflings: Dark Sun or Eberron-style. No other variants need apply.

Quote from: Vermicious KnidOn the subject of halflings: Dark Sun or Eberron-style. No other variants need apply.

Sorry I prefer the Birthright ones.

Quote from: DackeDwarven Fighter
General: at any level where the character takes a substitution level, he rolls 1d12 for hp

This may be the specific rule that turned me sour on substitution levels.  Don't fuck with the hit die.  Also, substitution levels just take me back to the old "elf is a class" days of basic D&D, which is something I never want to deal with again.  Many things, like the dwarven Heavy Armor Specialization would be as well, or better, served as a feat with a racial prereq.

Quote from: BagpussSorry I prefer the Birthright ones.

I know nothing about Birthright.  What's up with the little guys?

Quote from: SobekMany things, like the dwarven Heavy Armor Specialization would be as well, or better, served as a feat with a racial prereq.

I see substitution levels as a codification of the thing in the DMG where it says "It's OK to modify classes a bit to account for differences in taste and special background." Now, you may have a point about the fighter substitution levels in particular (since they're usually traded for a feat, because the fighter doesn't have much else to trade in), but in other cases the extra ability is traded in for things like a sneak attack die, a spell, or something along those lines.

Quote from: SobekI know nothing about Birthright.  What's up with the little guys?

They come from a different plane than the other races which has now been corrupted and taken over by undead. They have the ability to step back and forth between the 2 planes, if they want to risk possibly running into some of the life-challenged, which makes them absolutely superb rogues and rangers IMO.

One way of doing favoured class could be to do away with multi classing penalties, but give each character a bunus level in their favoured class. This way, a 4th level Elven Mage would have Fireball, while a 3rd level Dwarven Fighter would have weapon specialization. A Halfling Sorcerer would have some sneak attack while an Kobold Rogue would have some spells.

I'm not sure of the exact way this would be best implemented, but it might be something like this they have i Eberron.

Quote from: bondetampI'm not sure of the exact way this would be best implemented, but it might be something like this they have i Eberron.

Eberron doesn't have any special rules for multiclassing (well, except for two feats that allow monks and paladins to multiclass back and forth). The "all elves dabble in wizardry" thing is more Keith Baker's way of interpreting the way the favored class rule works in D&D.

Quote from: SigmundThey come from a different plane than the other races which has now been corrupted and taken over by undead. They have the ability to step back and forth between the 2 planes, if they want to risk possibly running into some of the life-challenged, which makes them absolutely superb rogues and rangers IMO.

That is pretty cool, I must admit. It doesn't stink of Kender or Tolkien. I approve.

Quote from: Vermicious KnidThat is pretty cool, I must admit. It doesn't stink of Kender or Tolkien. I approve.

Ditto.  That is the coolest concept for pipsqueaks I've ever seen.  They actually have flavor.

Quote from: DackeI see substitution levels as a codification of the thing in the DMG where it says "It's OK to modify classes a bit to account for differences in taste and special background."

My problem isn't with twiddling the definition of the class.  I do that all the time.  It's with making what serves best as a universal mechanic to be customized.
 
It's a very, very fine line, really.  I wouldn't mind something like the Loremaster's "Secret" (or whatever) ability, where the class has a list of things from which they may choose (Wizard's gift: choose a familiar or Generalist wizard (elf-only)).  I wouldn't even mind having some be race-specific.  I just don't like saying the whole level is swapped out.
 
Thinking about it, it's really a nit.  Kinda like I don't mind the idea of an average save represented as (1 + 2/5 * level), but I really hate the "just use the average of the good and bad saves" approach.  The end result is pretty similar.  The mindset and approach behind it is different -- in the case of saves, I think putting a formula to a lot of the numbers was one of the best improvements in 3E.