TheRPGSite

I always play with the same group so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it but CofD is the best RPG system Ive gotten to play so far. Ive played 5e, Dresden Files, Fate Core, BESM, and GURPS.

This game had some mechanical depth, without being any more complex than nessesary. Lots of character customization, and the games make it easy to come up with a realistic character. The rules naturally guide you to role playing without any narrative game BS, and playing mortals is really fun if you like horror.

Besides the core rules you have vampire, werewolf, mage (my favorite and I was pretty resistant to the concept) promethean (basically frankenstien), Beast (build your own monster), Sin Eater (A revenant like the crow), and others.

I figured since RPG Pundit is an OSR guy most people here will not like these games since their more rule heavy, but I was wondering if anyone else here does?

I like it!

Not my favorite game for the genre (I'm enjoying Powered by the Apocalypse more these days...) but it has tons of creative ideas in it. I think the only thing that bothers me about the game is the weird experience. I can easily ignore that in favor of something house-ruled.

I'm trying to form a group that rotates games / GMs every 8 - 12 sessions. I would like to GM a run of this in the future.

I love CoD

Quote from: K9ine;1094895I always play with the same group so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it but CofD is the best RPG system Ive gotten to play so far. Ive played 5e, Dresden Files, Fate Core, BESM, and GURPS.

This game had some mechanical depth, without being any more complex than nessesary. Lots of character customization, and the games make it easy to come up with a realistic character. The rules naturally guide you to role playing without any narrative game BS, and playing mortals is really fun if you like horror.

Besides the core rules you have vampire, werewolf, mage (my favorite and I was pretty resistant to the concept) promethean (basically frankenstien), Beast (build your own monster), Sin Eater (A revenant like the crow), and others.

I figured since RPG Pundit is an OSR guy most people here will not like these games since their more rule heavy, but I was wondering if anyone else here does?

I love BESM and I am a huge fan of New World of Darkness (AKA Chronicles of Darkness 1E)

Not really a fan of the setting changes made in 2E (The whole God-Machine nonsense and I don't like Beast: The Primordial either) but I can adapt to the mechanics and invoke Rule Zero to remove all the Onyx Path bullshit.

It's sort of like eating the chicken and throwing away the bone. The 2E mechanics are solid enough you can just do a tweaked 1E setting with 2E rules.

But it is good to see another New WoD fan on here, and even better to see a fellow BESM fan.

Would you be interested in a New World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness play-by-post in the near future?

Are you refering to first edition when it was called New World of Darkness, or the second edition which is a clusterfuck of lies that was told directly to my face by MachineIV (aka Oliva Hill (aka David A. Hill))?  I like the first, but if I had full control of the IP I would burn the second edition.  Then set out to work on a third edition that isn't full of lies.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1094929Are you refering to first edition when it was called New World of Darkness, or the second edition which is a clusterfuck of lies that was told directly to my face by MachineIV (aka Oliva Hill (aka David A. Hill))?  I like the first, but if I had full control of the IP I would burn the second edition.  Then set out to work on a third edition that isn't full of lies.

Amen, my good man.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1094929Are you refering to first edition when it was called New World of Darkness, or the second edition which is a clusterfuck of lies that was told directly to my face by MachineIV (aka Oliva Hill (aka David A. Hill))?  I like the first, but if I had full control of the IP I would burn the second edition.  Then set out to work on a third edition that isn't full of lies.

What lies?

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1094910I love BESM and I am a huge fan of New World of Darkness (AKA Chronicles of Darkness 1E)

Not really a fan of the setting changes made in 2E (The whole God-Machine nonsense and I don't like Beast: The Primordial either) but I can adapt to the mechanics and invoke Rule Zero to remove all the Onyx Path bullshit.

It's sort of like eating the chicken and throwing away the bone. The 2E mechanics are solid enough you can just do a tweaked 1E setting with 2E rules.

But it is good to see another New WoD fan on here, and even better to see a fellow BESM fan.

Would you be interested in a New World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness play-by-post in the near future?

I've never done a play by post online sort of game. How do those work? Do you use the regular rules? Do you just type everything in skype or discord?

Quote from: K9ine;1094956What lies?

When it was being developed I was texting to MachineIV about it on a weekly bases at Wanton Wicked chat during the 4.0 period.  We often talk about the books and what improvements they needed.  During this time Olivia (David at the time) assured me that CoD would be sleeker, streamlined, and less bulk.  It was told to me to be a much lighter system that gets to the point instead of wasting time.

Which as we can see in CoD that was never to be true.  Instead of one xp to track there are beats and xp to track.  Merits been some what fix, but the bulk hasn't been cut down.  This is adding tilts and conditions into the mix which demands a rules heavy system which makes more bulk.  Even the spirits got a flow chart which shows how much things got more complicated.  Worst of all it isn't needed at all.  In fact it detracts from the game.  I was promise one thing and got another thing in reality.

Quote from: K9ine;1094959I've never done a play by post online sort of game. How do those work? Do you use the regular rules? Do you just type everything in skype or discord?

You play via forum posts. Some Play by Post games are free form, others use the regular rules with an online dice roller.

How does the Chronicle of Darkness game system relate to the likes of Vampire the Masquerade 1st ed. and Werewold 1st ed ?

I ask because while I played a lot of Vampire 20 years ago, and enjoyed it, I always felt like the system was no good. Typically, if you tried to play Vampires versus Mages, vampires were screwed.

Quote from: Lychee of the Exchequer;1094968How does the Chronicle of Darkness game system relate to the likes of Vampire the Masquerade 1st ed. and Werewold 1st ed ?

I ask because while I played a lot of Vampire 20 years ago, and enjoyed it, I always felt like the system was no good. Typically, if you tried to play Vampires versus Mages, vampires were screwed.

New World of Darkness is a lot more crossover-friendly and IIRC, the early New WoD games back in the 1E days were explicitly designed to be crossover-compatible, which was one of the reasons why there was no metaplot.

I never played the older games, but the chronicles games are built on the same rules foundation. Basically you build your character as a mortal first, then and your supernatural templet which is a sort of racial trait (powers) and a social trait (group you belong to).

Balance wise supetnaturals are good at different things. A were wolf could tear a vampire limb to limb, but only if the vampire failed to mind control/terrify the werewolf into submission first. Just as a mortal could shoot another with a gun without them being able to dodge the bullets.

This makes the game more about cloak and dagger intrigue and horror than fighting. It kind of becomes like a show like breaking bad where each player is trying to acomplish their goals, and sometime will work with or even occasionally oppose othet characters.

The swingyness of the powers and abilities of the supernatural means you don't get into fights lightly. You always want to stack the deck if your planing on taking someone eles out.

I meant to reply to you, see my prevous post.

Thanks for inviting me. If I have time to play I'll pm you (or you can pm me), not sure yet. Sounds fun.

Besm was actually my groups first game we played for years. Before that we made up our own rules based on our gms limited experiance with d&d when he was at lunch at middle school.

After Besm we made our own system again but much better designed. I wish we still had it so I could redesign it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1094961When it was being developed I was texting to MachineIV about it on a weekly bases at Wanton Wicked chat during the 4.0 period.  We often talk about the books and what improvements they needed.  During this time Olivia (David at the time) assured me that CoD would be sleeker, streamlined, and less bulk.  It was told to me to be a much lighter system that gets to the point instead of wasting time.

Which as we can see in CoD that was never to be true.  Instead of one xp to track there are beats and xp to track.  Merits been some what fix, but the bulk hasn't been cut down.  This is adding tilts and conditions into the mix which demands a rules heavy system which makes more bulk.  Even the spirits got a flow chart which shows how much things got more complicated.  Worst of all it isn't needed at all.  In fact it detracts from the game.  I was promise one thing and got another thing in reality.

I never played the old games but I guess they changed their design goals during production. The spirit rules are a bit bloated but the experiance/beat, condition/tilts mechanics are the parts I really like. Probably cause my group is more into spotlighting each players scenes than into team work, which I know is not the usual for most. I think most people play as a team where their character are almost attatched to the hip.

Don't like it. The rules are a mess and the setting is arbitrarily restrictive.

If you like the conditions rules, then you're better off playing Strands of Fate with the Strands of Power supplement. It has detailed guidelines for urban fantasy like spirits, vampire bloodlines, etc. Unlike CoD, it's a genuine toolkit that gives you complete control over how all the magic and stuff works.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1095006Don't like it. The rules are a mess and the setting is arbitrarily restrictive.

If you like the conditions rules, then you're better off playing Strands of Fate with the Strands of Power supplement. It has detailed guidelines for urban fantasy like spirits, vampire bloodlines, etc. Unlike CoD, it's a genuine toolkit that gives you complete control over how all the magic and stuff works.

I have strands of fate and power. It provides a lot of customation and flexibility but I still prefer the detail and clarity of rules in chronicles. In cases I dont like I find it easier to change things in chronicles rather than add detailed customized rules in strands. Im actually running a game in strands right now. I have altered the system so much its almost a new game. So I guess on the front we disagree but Im curious about what you dont like about the setting?

From what I understand the setting is a list of assumetions and guidlines that answers any implications and questions while being vauge enough to easily alter.

Again I don't play with strangers so that may be why it works so well for us. We can just change stuff, and we wont have to worry about a new player comming in with prior assumptions so I guess we have that advantage.

Quote from: K9ine;1095012I have strands of fate and power. It provides a lot of customation and flexibility but I still prefer the detail and clarity of rules in chronicles. In cases I dont like I find it easier to change things in chronicles rather than add detailed customized rules in strands. Im actually running a game in strands right now. I have altered the system so much its almost a new game. So I guess on the front we disagree but Im curious about what you dont like about the setting?

From what I understand the setting is a list of assumetions and guidlines that answers any implications and questions while being vauge enough to easily alter.

Again I don't play with strangers so that may be why it works so well for us. We can just change stuff, and we wont have to worry about a new player comming in with prior assumptions so I guess we have that advantage.

It advertises itself as a toolkit when it really isn't. If I'm not already invested in their particular campaign setting, then the books are useless to me. The basic rules are convoluted enough, and playing a monster mash is a headache because everyone has to reinvent the wheel when it comes to superpowers.

I'm better off playing something like Monsterhearts or Urban Shadows. The only downside is that I have to write the setting myself, since unlike D&D there aren't a bazillion urban fantasy campaign settings or modules on the market.

World of Darkness was a janky mess, but fun as long as you could get enjoyment hamming up pretentious gothy stuff.  The combat was painful though, since it required multiple rolls to resolve any given attack (roll to hit, roll to dodge, roll to soak), even a little skirmish would devour time.  New World of Darkness greatly fixed the system and helped a lot with the jank and power imbalances for cross-play, but the settings were largely less interesting, with the exception of Changeling which was a vast improvement over the original.  Then Chronicles of Darkness played around with the system for no better reason than selling the same books a second time, as far as I could tell.  Demon is a pretty cool concept, I like that book, but the rest of the stuff that's come out has been entirely ignorable as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1094961... It was told to me to be a much lighter system that gets to the point instead of wasting time.

Which as we can see in CoD that was never to be true.  Instead of one xp to track there are beats and xp to track.  Merits been some what fix, but the bulk hasn't been cut down.  This is adding tilts and conditions into the mix which demands a rules heavy system which makes more bulk.  Even the spirits got a flow chart which shows how much things got more complicated.  Worst of all it isn't needed at all.  In fact it detracts from the game.  I was promise one thing and got another thing in reality.

Yup, too much legacy rules carry over.

My current starwars campaign, is a homebrew system based on current CoD system. When you look at the system from the point of design - it has a lot of clutter.

I really simplified the combat modifiers - and basically tossed out all the Merits/Flaws, and replaced them with my own version of Character traits.

Nothing wrong with the underlying diepool mechanic - it's all the stuff they've piled on top, for reasons. I think a cleaned up version of the new CoD rules, with some kind of an SRD, would work really well for cinematic action-adventure games.

Quote from: Jaeger;1095020Yup, too much legacy rules carry over.

My current starwars campaign, is a homebrew system based on current CoD system. When you look at the system from the point of design - it has a lot of clutter.

I really simplified the combat modifiers - and basically tossed out all the Merits/Flaws, and replaced them with my own version of Character traits.

Nothing wrong with the underlying diepool mechanic - it's all the stuff they've piled on top, for reasons. I think a cleaned up version of the new CoD rules, with some kind of an SRD, would work really well for cinematic action-adventure games.

They seem to be working on something more action based right now with thr Trinity Continuum. It is done with their Story Path system but slightly different.

"Opening the Dark" is a retroclone of the ST system released under the OGL. If you wanted, you could use it to invent your own dark urban fantasy game.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1095026"Opening the Dark" is a retroclone of the ST system released under the OGL. If you wanted, you could use it to invent your own dark urban fantasy game.

Currently trying to make my own system as we speak.  It is similar to D&D hacks that simplify D&D.  Basically think Black Hack for something similar to nWoD, but leans more on the adventuring with barely any personal horror bullshit.  There is also a generic pool of powers that all supernaturals to use so that I don't need to reinvent the wheel unless I REALLY have to.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1095026"Opening the Dark" is a retroclone of the ST system released under the OGL. If you wanted, you could use it to invent your own dark urban fantasy game.

Very cool. Thanks for the info. I'll check it out.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1095029Currently trying to make my own system as we speak.  It is similar to D&D hacks that simplify D&D.  Basically think Black Hack for something similar to nWoD, but leans more on the adventuring with barely any personal horror bullshit.  There is also a generic pool of powers that all supernaturals to use so that I don't need to reinvent the wheel unless I REALLY have to.

Neat sounds pretty interesting.

The game seems to have died out here locally just as I was starting to take an interest.
I inherited a large stack of WoD/NWoD books and it's risen up the ranks of games I'd like to play... though I'm feeling quite choosy over who I'd play it with. Random draw of murderhobos won't do.

Quote from: Simlasa;1095034The game seems to have died out here locally just as I was starting to take an interest.
I inherited a large stack of WoD/NWoD books and it's risen up the ranks of games I'd like to play... though I'm feeling quite choosy over who I'd play it with. Random draw of murderhobos won't do.

 The best way is to form your own group out of newbies in my experiance. Although this means you would need to be the storyteller.

Welcome to the forums K9ine!

I played a lot of OWOD back in the 90's, and a bit of NWOD when it first came out (mid 2000's) but by that time I was burned out on dice pools.

Changeling the Lost seemed like it had potential. The new Hunter would probably be my first pick to run, but I'd just Gurps it.

Quote from: Aglondir;1095056Welcome to the forums K9ine!

I played a lot of OWOD back in the 90's, and a bit of NWOD when it first came out (mid 2000's) but by that time I was burned out on dice pools.

Changeling the Lost seemed like it had potential. The new Hunter would probably be my first pick to run, but I'd just Gurps it.

Im really looking forward to the new hunter. It seems like my dream game. They have new rules for "nest". Monster lairs that go along with expanded dread horrors and other monster building kits.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1095029Currently trying to make my own system as we speak.  It is similar to D&D hacks that simplify D&D.  Basically think Black Hack for something similar to nWoD, but leans more on the adventuring with barely any personal horror bullshit.  There is also a generic pool of powers that all supernaturals to use so that I don't need to reinvent the wheel unless I REALLY have to.

What would be great would be a revision of Opening the Dark (https://www.scribd.com/lists/2653023/Opening-the-Dark) that takes into account the innovations made by CoD, V5, Exalted, etc. Right now it hews fairly closely to the Revised Storyteller System (https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Storyteller_System#Revised_Storyteller_System).

For example:

• Persona/Being: There's a bazillion ways this could be changed up, but I like how it combines the Nature/Demeanor and Virtue/Vice concepts that people endlessly argued over. It could even be discarded entirely or merged into Emotional Traits.
  
• Emotional Traits: Scion lets you select from a suite of virtues. Exalted 3e switched it to free-form intimacies. V5 and CoD 2e introduced touchstones and whatnot. The Everlasting did something similar.
  
• Ethos: Need to ensure this doesn't punish players for playing as murderous hobos and doesn't introduce ways around itself. Maybe it could be changed to a light/dark side mechanic, with both sides providing benefits and drawbacks. Or discard it entirely.
  
• Will: As in V5, this could be tweaked to a mental hit point trait. Or does the Madness trait already cover that?
  
• Attributes: The way that CoD and V5 divide attributes along two axes of Mental/Physical/Social by Power/Finesse/Resistance. Epic/Mega Attributes* from Trinity and Scion (as an alternative to scaling attributes beyond 5 ranks).
  
• Background Traits: This could definitely stand to be expanded to account for all the negative backgrounds (a la Mage: The Ascension), background enhancements* (a la Trinity), merits and flaws, conditions, yadda yadda introduced over the years.
  
• Power Paths: Universal powers are a must, so great that it's the default. Take into account all the ways that powers have been represented in the many ST games. V5 has multiple powers to select from at each rank of a power path (including upgrades and amalgam powers), and explicitly tags power paths as mental/social or physical. Trinity, Scion and Exalted rely on Attributes and Skills instead of dedicated Power Paths. Exalted has a very detailed tagging system. Power Paths could have separate effect and target traits a la CtD or GtSE. Etc.
  
• Essence: Change this to a universal "power stat" a la Trinity, Scion and Exalted. But not CoD's dozen different traits with different limits.
  
• Task Resolution: used the simplified task resolution mechanics from CoD 1e or Qwixalted. Don't use more rolls than you need to. Conditions are helpful in theory since it makes sense to condense various advantage/disadvantage rules, but the execution needs to be streamlined a lot.
  

---

[/HR]

I'm going to focus on Conditions for a sec since those are one of the most maligned aspects of CoD2. Although you can criticize them for clearly ripping off FATE, it make sense to condense the various backgrounds, merits, flaws, experience gain, yadda yadda into a single system for various advantages and disadvantages. CoD2's implementation is very clunky, however.

The rules for spirits are a commonly cited example. In order for, say, a ghost to manifest, it first needs to roll dice to create an Open Condition. What would make more sense is not to need this step at all, as in CoD1. Cleaning up the list of manifestations is good, but in the process it lost the flavor from CoD1. The "twilight image" manifestation is nowhere near as interesting as the highly variable precursors in CoD1. The limitations on temporal parameters, manifested appearance, and sight based attributes was really interesting and I'm sad that it was discarded in CoD1 (along with most of the numina). (I could go on about how it isn't thematic for spirits to limited by spatial coordinates when they aren't manifesting as a target, but that's another tangent.) IIRC, over on the Onyx Path forums somebody made a list of new manifestations to account for things like demon whisperers or whatever. I definitely think the list of manifestations could stand to be expanded, since a lot of nuance depicted in the fluff is absent. For example, there's no manifestation for a spirit to be attached to a host without possessing them: in the Immortals book the chapter opening fiction for a purified character depicts wasp spirits literally riding on the backs of hosts, but this isn't actually allowed by the rules. And the whole multiple levels of twilight rule is just pointlessly confusing; I didn't like the penumbra (nor the umbra) in WoD and I don't like it in CoD either.

Another clunky example would be the super powers. I haven't read the rules in a while, so excuse any errors. Some powers require inflicting a condition before they can be used, but much of the time this isn't abstracted into a single roll. While it makes sense that modifying someone's memories in detail first requires placing them into a hypnotic trance so that you can do a Q&A to determine what they do remember and what you want them to remember instead, placing them into a trance and starting the editing should be abstracted as part of the same roll as they were in CoD1 unless the nuance is dramatically important in a particular situation. In any case, ease of play should trump other concerns.

One of the first rules of the ST system has always been some variation of "only make rolls when dramatically appropriate." There are way too many instances when this is broken for the sake of some bizarre need to simulate everything in as much detail as possible or whatever the rationale is.

To sum, I prefer simplicity and flexibility.

---

[/HR]

As far as splats go, I find WoD/CoD to be needlessly restrictive. Everlasting, WitchCraft, Nightlife, and other games had plenty of original ideas that were never reflected by WoD/CoD. Everlasting in particular is just crazy. It has analogues for almost all of the WoD/CoD splats, as well as Scion/Exalted, and more. It wouldn't be feasible right now to try listing every idea I had for splats, so I'm going to restrict myself to the "big five" of vampire, werewolf, mage, ghost and fairy. My design philosophy takes heavy inspiration from Changeling: The Lost and Hunter: The Vigil, since those are the most creative and free-form splats.

• Vampire: I'd dispense with the fixed number of clans nonsense. There's an arbitrary number of bloodlines, since a new one comes into existence whenever a "progenitor" appears, so you can play whatever concept you want. Sects/covenants would be free-form and you could have membership in multiple circles if it makes sense, like how cliques work in real life.
  
• Werewolf: I'd dispense with the enforced ecoterrorism and spirit cops monomyth. While you could certainly play as ecoterrorists or spirit slayers, werewolves don't have a monopoly on that. For that matter, I wouldn't limit your animal aspect to a wolf or even a single animal. You wanna play lunars? These guys are basically lunars. You could even have plant or mineral aspects like Everlasting's manitou. There's no single way to become a werewolf, either. You could be hereditary, or you could be infected, or you could have made a pact with a totem, whatever. This would place a larger emphasis on the tribes, since they'd not only serve as high school cliques they'd also give you your mission in life.
  
• Mage: OtD provides a magic system that anyone can use, so Mages don't have a monopoly on flexible magic. I'm taking some inspiration from Everlasting's osirians for the next part: what they do have potential to access is a meta-magic that isn't limited by paradigm/magical tradition/whatever (what OtD represents as arts and praxes). However, they do suffer from the equivalent of "paradox" (or "magical bursts" a la Ewen Cluney's Magical Fury RPG) which prevents them from using their power wantonly. Mages don't have a universal monomyth, but several that inform many different secret societies.
  
• Ghost: This includes ghosts, revenants, mediums, astral projectors, reapers a la Dead Like Me, deja-vus a la Tru Calling, and so forth. There's no slavery, pseudo-underworld, underworld politics or any of those weird WoD/CoDisms to distract from the real world. You could play ghosts haunting their former lives, ghosts trying to relieve their karma and move on, ghost gangs fighting over haunted territory, ghost hunters hunting for ghosts, grim reapers reaping souls, etc.
  
• Fairy: This includes both fairies and half-fairies like changelings. These aren't your friendly kithain, but Dresden Files style Fair Folk. Deal with them at your own peril. Changelings are pretty much their DAF or CoD version, living between human and fairy but being terrified of the dangers of Fairyland. Fairies are closely related to spirits (the distinction is fuzzy since they don't coexist in any real religion so there's no theological underpinning), so they're the closest you get to a playable spirit character.
  

There are any number of other splats that you could devise, like angels, demons, ghouls, zombies, mummies, golems, gargoyles, grail questers, etc but I'm not going to try that right now. Well, maybe I'll say a few worlds on zombies.

• Zombie: The ancient fan-splat Zombie: The Coil deals a lot with zombies, combining both Haitian folklore and Romero's horror movies for a bizarre whole. The obvious downside is that you're expected to play highly prolific serial killers who literally eat people alive (and the zombies who only eat dead bodies are portrayed as the villains), but that's hardly a stretch from the standard murderhobos. I prefer something more like All Flesh Must Be Eaten, where there are a bunch of very different zombie varieties depending on their origin and the constraints of the deadworld (campaign setting) in question. On the other hand, flesh-eating monsters heavily overlaps with Vampire's shtick. For that matter, folkloric vampires overlap with ghosts.
  

Worldbuilding is a lot to think about.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1095104What would be great would be a revision of Opening the Dark (https://www.scribd.com/lists/2653023/Opening-the-Dark) that takes into account the innovations made by CoD, V5, Exalted, etc. Right now it hews fairly closely to the Revised Storyteller System (https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Storyteller_System#Revised_Storyteller_System).

For example:

• Persona/Being: There's a bazillion ways this could be changed up, but I like how it combines the Nature/Demeanor and Virtue/Vice concepts that people endlessly argued over. It could even be discarded entirely or merged into Emotional Traits.
  
• Emotional Traits: Scion lets you select from a suite of virtues. Exalted 3e switched it to free-form intimacies. V5 and CoD 2e introduced touchstones and whatnot. The Everlasting did something similar.
  
• Ethos: Need to ensure this doesn't punish players for playing as murderous hobos and doesn't introduce ways around itself. Maybe it could be changed to a light/dark side mechanic, with both sides providing benefits and drawbacks. Or discard it entirely.
  
• Will: As in V5, this could be tweaked to a mental hit point trait. Or does the Madness trait already cover that?
  
• Attributes: The way that CoD and V5 divide attributes along two axes of Mental/Physical/Social by Power/Finesse/Resistance. Epic/Mega Attributes* from Trinity and Scion (as an alternative to scaling attributes beyond 5 ranks).
  
• Background Traits: This could definitely stand to be expanded to account for all the negative backgrounds (a la Mage: The Ascension), background enhancements* (a la Trinity), merits and flaws, conditions, yadda yadda introduced over the years.
  
• Power Paths: Universal powers are a must, so great that it's the default. Take into account all the ways that powers have been represented in the many ST games. V5 has multiple powers to select from at each rank of a power path (including upgrades and amalgam powers), and explicitly tags power paths as mental/social or physical. Trinity, Scion and Exalted rely on Attributes and Skills instead of dedicated Power Paths. Exalted has a very detailed tagging system. Power Paths could have separate effect and target traits a la CtD or GtSE. Etc.
  
• Essence: Change this to a universal "power stat" a la Trinity, Scion and Exalted. But not CoD's dozen different traits with different limits.
  
• Task Resolution: used the simplified task resolution mechanics from CoD 1e or Qwixalted. Don't use more rolls than you need to. Conditions are helpful in theory since it makes sense to condense various advantage/disadvantage rules, but the execution needs to be streamlined a lot.
  

---

[/HR]

I'm going to focus on Conditions for a sec since those are one of the most maligned aspects of CoD2. Although you can criticize them for clearly ripping off FATE, it make sense to condense the various backgrounds, merits, flaws, experience gain, yadda yadda into a single system for various advantages and disadvantages. CoD2's implementation is very clunky, however.

The rules for spirits are a commonly cited example. In order for, say, a ghost to manifest, it first needs to roll dice to create an Open Condition. What would make more sense is not to need this step at all, as in CoD1. Cleaning up the list of manifestations is good, but in the process it lost the flavor from CoD1. The "twilight image" manifestation is nowhere near as interesting as the highly variable precursors in CoD1. The limitations on temporal parameters, manifested appearance, and sight based attributes was really interesting and I'm sad that it was discarded in CoD1 (along with most of the numina). (I could go on about how it isn't thematic for spirits to limited by spatial coordinates when they aren't manifesting as a target, but that's another tangent.) IIRC, over on the Onyx Path forums somebody made a list of new manifestations to account for things like demon whisperers or whatever. I definitely think the list of manifestations could stand to be expanded, since a lot of nuance depicted in the fluff is absent. For example, there's no manifestation for a spirit to be attached to a host without possessing them: in the Immortals book the chapter opening fiction for a purified character depicts wasp spirits literally riding on the backs of hosts, but this isn't actually allowed by the rules. And the whole multiple levels of twilight rule is just pointlessly confusing; I didn't like the penumbra (nor the umbra) in WoD and I don't like it in CoD either.

Another clunky example would be the super powers. I haven't read the rules in a while, so excuse any errors. Some powers require inflicting a condition before they can be used, but much of the time this isn't abstracted into a single roll. While it makes sense that modifying someone's memories in detail first requires placing them into a hypnotic trance so that you can do a Q&A to determine what they do remember and what you want them to remember instead, placing them into a trance and starting the editing should be abstracted as part of the same roll as they were in CoD1 unless the nuance is dramatically important in a particular situation. In any case, ease of play should trump other concerns.

One of the first rules of the ST system has always been some variation of "only make rolls when dramatically appropriate." There are way too many instances when this is broken for the sake of some bizarre need to simulate everything in as much detail as possible or whatever the rationale is.

To sum, I prefer simplicity and flexibility.

---

[/HR]

As far as splats go, I find WoD/CoD to be needlessly restrictive. Everlasting, WitchCraft, Nightlife, and other games had plenty of original ideas that were never reflected by WoD/CoD. Everlasting in particular is just crazy. It has analogues for almost all of the WoD/CoD splats, as well as Scion/Exalted, and more. It wouldn't be feasible right now to try listing every idea I had for splats, so I'm going to restrict myself to the "big five" of vampire, werewolf, mage, ghost and fairy. My design philosophy takes heavy inspiration from Changeling: The Lost and Hunter: The Vigil, since those are the most creative and free-form splats.

• Vampire: I'd dispense with the fixed number of clans nonsense. There's an arbitrary number of bloodlines, since a new one comes into existence whenever a "progenitor" appears, so you can play whatever concept you want. Sects/covenants would be free-form and you could have membership in multiple circles if it makes sense, like how cliques work in real life.
  
• Werewolf: I'd dispense with the enforced ecoterrorism and spirit cops monomyth. While you could certainly play as ecoterrorists or spirit slayers, werewolves don't have a monopoly on that. For that matter, I wouldn't limit your animal aspect to a wolf or even a single animal. You wanna play lunars? These guys are basically lunars. You could even have plant or mineral aspects like Everlasting's manitou. There's no single way to become a werewolf, either. You could be hereditary, or you could be infected, or you could have made a pact with a totem, whatever. This would place a larger emphasis on the tribes, since they'd not only serve as high school cliques they'd also give you your mission in life.
  
• Mage: OtD provides a magic system that anyone can use, so Mages don't have a monopoly on flexible magic. I'm taking some inspiration from Everlasting's osirians for the next part: what they do have potential to access is a meta-magic that isn't limited by paradigm/magical tradition/whatever (what OtD represents as arts and praxes). However, they do suffer from the equivalent of "paradox" (or "magical bursts" a la Ewen Cluney's Magical Fury RPG) which prevents them from using their power wantonly. Mages don't have a universal monomyth, but several that inform many different secret societies.
  
• Ghost: This includes ghosts, revenants, mediums, astral projectors, reapers a la Dead Like Me, deja-vus a la Tru Calling, and so forth. There's no slavery, pseudo-underworld, underworld politics or any of those weird WoD/CoDisms to distract from the real world. You could play ghosts haunting their former lives, ghosts trying to relieve their karma and move on, ghost gangs fighting over haunted territory, ghost hunters hunting for ghosts, grim reapers reaping souls, etc.
  
• Fairy: This includes both fairies and half-fairies like changelings. These aren't your friendly kithain, but Dresden Files style Fair Folk. Deal with them at your own peril. Changelings are pretty much their DAF or CoD version, living between human and fairy but being terrified of the dangers of Fairyland. Fairies are closely related to spirits (the distinction is fuzzy since they don't coexist in any real religion so there's no theological underpinning), so they're the closest you get to a playable spirit character.
  

There are any number of other splats that you could devise, like angels, demons, ghouls, zombies, mummies, golems, gargoyles, grail questers, etc but I'm not going to try that right now. Well, maybe I'll say a few worlds on zombies.

• Zombie: The ancient fan-splat Zombie: The Coil deals a lot with zombies, combining both Haitian folklore and Romero's horror movies for a bizarre whole. The obvious downside is that you're expected to play highly prolific serial killers who literally eat people alive (and the zombies who only eat dead bodies are portrayed as the villains), but that's hardly a stretch from the standard murderhobos. I prefer something more like All Flesh Must Be Eaten, where there are a bunch of very different zombie varieties depending on their origin and the constraints of the deadworld (campaign setting) in question. On the other hand, flesh-eating monsters heavily overlaps with Vampire's shtick. For that matter, folkloric vampires overlap with ghosts.
  

Worldbuilding is a lot to think about.

Really cool. I havent read it all yet, but for some reason i haven't gotten updates on the threads im subscribed to.

Once you finish you should sell it as a PDF on the storytellers vault that Onyx Path and White Wolf opened for third party developers.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1095104What would be great would be a revision of Opening the Dark (https://www.scribd.com/lists/2653023/Opening-the-Dark) that takes into account the innovations made by CoD, V5, Exalted, etc. Right now it hews fairly closely to the Revised Storyteller System (https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Storyteller_System#Revised_Storyteller_System).

For example:

• Persona/Being: There's a bazillion ways this could be changed up, but I like how it combines the Nature/Demeanor and Virtue/Vice concepts that people endlessly argued over. It could even be discarded entirely or merged into Emotional Traits.
  
• Emotional Traits: Scion lets you select from a suite of virtues. Exalted 3e switched it to free-form intimacies. V5 and CoD 2e introduced touchstones and whatnot. The Everlasting did something similar.
  
• Ethos: Need to ensure this doesn't punish players for playing as murderous hobos and doesn't introduce ways around itself. Maybe it could be changed to a light/dark side mechanic, with both sides providing benefits and drawbacks. Or discard it entirely.
  
• Will: As in V5, this could be tweaked to a mental hit point trait. Or does the Madness trait already cover that?
  
• Attributes: The way that CoD and V5 divide attributes along two axes of Mental/Physical/Social by Power/Finesse/Resistance. Epic/Mega Attributes* from Trinity and Scion (as an alternative to scaling attributes beyond 5 ranks).
  
• Background Traits: This could definitely stand to be expanded to account for all the negative backgrounds (a la Mage: The Ascension), background enhancements* (a la Trinity), merits and flaws, conditions, yadda yadda introduced over the years.
  
• Power Paths: Universal powers are a must, so great that it's the default. Take into account all the ways that powers have been represented in the many ST games. V5 has multiple powers to select from at each rank of a power path (including upgrades and amalgam powers), and explicitly tags power paths as mental/social or physical. Trinity, Scion and Exalted rely on Attributes and Skills instead of dedicated Power Paths. Exalted has a very detailed tagging system. Power Paths could have separate effect and target traits a la CtD or GtSE. Etc.
  
• Essence: Change this to a universal "power stat" a la Trinity, Scion and Exalted. But not CoD's dozen different traits with different limits.
  
• Task Resolution: used the simplified task resolution mechanics from CoD 1e or Qwixalted. Don't use more rolls than you need to. Conditions are helpful in theory since it makes sense to condense various advantage/disadvantage rules, but the execution needs to be streamlined a lot.
  

---

[/HR]

I'm going to focus on Conditions for a sec since those are one of the most maligned aspects of CoD2. Although you can criticize them for clearly ripping off FATE, it make sense to condense the various backgrounds, merits, flaws, experience gain, yadda yadda into a single system for various advantages and disadvantages. CoD2's implementation is very clunky, however.

The rules for spirits are a commonly cited example. In order for, say, a ghost to manifest, it first needs to roll dice to create an Open Condition. What would make more sense is not to need this step at all, as in CoD1. Cleaning up the list of manifestations is good, but in the process it lost the flavor from CoD1. The "twilight image" manifestation is nowhere near as interesting as the highly variable precursors in CoD1. The limitations on temporal parameters, manifested appearance, and sight based attributes was really interesting and I'm sad that it was discarded in CoD1 (along with most of the numina). (I could go on about how it isn't thematic for spirits to limited by spatial coordinates when they aren't manifesting as a target, but that's another tangent.) IIRC, over on the Onyx Path forums somebody made a list of new manifestations to account for things like demon whisperers or whatever. I definitely think the list of manifestations could stand to be expanded, since a lot of nuance depicted in the fluff is absent. For example, there's no manifestation for a spirit to be attached to a host without possessing them: in the Immortals book the chapter opening fiction for a purified character depicts wasp spirits literally riding on the backs of hosts, but this isn't actually allowed by the rules. And the whole multiple levels of twilight rule is just pointlessly confusing; I didn't like the penumbra (nor the umbra) in WoD and I don't like it in CoD either.

Another clunky example would be the super powers. I haven't read the rules in a while, so excuse any errors. Some powers require inflicting a condition before they can be used, but much of the time this isn't abstracted into a single roll. While it makes sense that modifying someone's memories in detail first requires placing them into a hypnotic trance so that you can do a Q&A to determine what they do remember and what you want them to remember instead, placing them into a trance and starting the editing should be abstracted as part of the same roll as they were in CoD1 unless the nuance is dramatically important in a particular situation. In any case, ease of play should trump other concerns.

One of the first rules of the ST system has always been some variation of "only make rolls when dramatically appropriate." There are way too many instances when this is broken for the sake of some bizarre need to simulate everything in as much detail as possible or whatever the rationale is.

To sum, I prefer simplicity and flexibility.

---

[/HR]

As far as splats go, I find WoD/CoD to be needlessly restrictive. Everlasting, WitchCraft, Nightlife, and other games had plenty of original ideas that were never reflected by WoD/CoD. Everlasting in particular is just crazy. It has analogues for almost all of the WoD/CoD splats, as well as Scion/Exalted, and more. It wouldn't be feasible right now to try listing every idea I had for splats, so I'm going to restrict myself to the "big five" of vampire, werewolf, mage, ghost and fairy. My design philosophy takes heavy inspiration from Changeling: The Lost and Hunter: The Vigil, since those are the most creative and free-form splats.

• Vampire: I'd dispense with the fixed number of clans nonsense. There's an arbitrary number of bloodlines, since a new one comes into existence whenever a "progenitor" appears, so you can play whatever concept you want. Sects/covenants would be free-form and you could have membership in multiple circles if it makes sense, like how cliques work in real life.
  
• Werewolf: I'd dispense with the enforced ecoterrorism and spirit cops monomyth. While you could certainly play as ecoterrorists or spirit slayers, werewolves don't have a monopoly on that. For that matter, I wouldn't limit your animal aspect to a wolf or even a single animal. You wanna play lunars? These guys are basically lunars. You could even have plant or mineral aspects like Everlasting's manitou. There's no single way to become a werewolf, either. You could be hereditary, or you could be infected, or you could have made a pact with a totem, whatever. This would place a larger emphasis on the tribes, since they'd not only serve as high school cliques they'd also give you your mission in life.
  
• Mage: OtD provides a magic system that anyone can use, so Mages don't have a monopoly on flexible magic. I'm taking some inspiration from Everlasting's osirians for the next part: what they do have potential to access is a meta-magic that isn't limited by paradigm/magical tradition/whatever (what OtD represents as arts and praxes). However, they do suffer from the equivalent of "paradox" (or "magical bursts" a la Ewen Cluney's Magical Fury RPG) which prevents them from using their power wantonly. Mages don't have a universal monomyth, but several that inform many different secret societies.
  
• Ghost: This includes ghosts, revenants, mediums, astral projectors, reapers a la Dead Like Me, deja-vus a la Tru Calling, and so forth. There's no slavery, pseudo-underworld, underworld politics or any of those weird WoD/CoDisms to distract from the real world. You could play ghosts haunting their former lives, ghosts trying to relieve their karma and move on, ghost gangs fighting over haunted territory, ghost hunters hunting for ghosts, grim reapers reaping souls, etc.
  
• Fairy: This includes both fairies and half-fairies like changelings. These aren't your friendly kithain, but Dresden Files style Fair Folk. Deal with them at your own peril. Changelings are pretty much their DAF or CoD version, living between human and fairy but being terrified of the dangers of Fairyland. Fairies are closely related to spirits (the distinction is fuzzy since they don't coexist in any real religion so there's no theological underpinning), so they're the closest you get to a playable spirit character.
  

There are any number of other splats that you could devise, like angels, demons, ghouls, zombies, mummies, golems, gargoyles, grail questers, etc but I'm not going to try that right now. Well, maybe I'll say a few worlds on zombies.

• Zombie: The ancient fan-splat Zombie: The Coil deals a lot with zombies, combining both Haitian folklore and Romero's horror movies for a bizarre whole. The obvious downside is that you're expected to play highly prolific serial killers who literally eat people alive (and the zombies who only eat dead bodies are portrayed as the villains), but that's hardly a stretch from the standard murderhobos. I prefer something more like All Flesh Must Be Eaten, where there are a bunch of very different zombie varieties depending on their origin and the constraints of the deadworld (campaign setting) in question. On the other hand, flesh-eating monsters heavily overlaps with Vampire's shtick. For that matter, folkloric vampires overlap with ghosts.
  

Worldbuilding is a lot to think about.

Hmm, maybe you could do a "Magical Girl" splat as a shout-out to the fan games "Senshi: The Merchandising" (for the Old WoD) and "Princess: The Hopeful" (for the New WoD) since that's the only splat to have a fan game in both main iterations of the World of Darkness?

At the very least, it could be a sub-group within the Mages or Fairies.

Quote from: K9ine;1095266Really cool. I havent read it all yet, but for some reason i haven't gotten updates on the threads im subscribed to.

Once you finish you should sell it as a PDF on the storytellers vault that Onyx Path and White Wolf opened for third party developers.

I'm not selling anything on storyteller vault. I chose the OGL precisely to avoid shackling myself to the deranged World of Darkness IP.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1095295Hmm, maybe you could do a "Magical Girl" splat as a shout-out to the fan games "Senshi: The Merchandising" (for the Old WoD) and "Princess: The Hopeful" (for the New WoD) since that's the only splat to have a fan game in both main iterations of the World of Darkness?

At the very least, it could be a sub-group within the Mages or Fairies.

I'm not married to a specific fatsplat setup. What I liked about Urban Shadows and Monsterhearts was that they let you makeup your own skins/archetypes.

Quote from: K9ine;1094895I always play with the same group so I'm sure that has a lot to do with it but CofD is the best RPG system Ive gotten to play so far. Ive played 5e, Dresden Files, Fate Core, BESM, and GURPS.

This game had some mechanical depth, without being any more complex than nessesary. Lots of character customization, and the games make it easy to come up with a realistic character. The rules naturally guide you to role playing without any narrative game BS, and playing mortals is really fun if you like horror.

Besides the core rules you have vampire, werewolf, mage (my favorite and I was pretty resistant to the concept) promethean (basically frankenstien), Beast (build your own monster), Sin Eater (A revenant like the crow), and others.

I figured since RPG Pundit is an OSR guy most people here will not like these games since their more rule heavy, but I was wondering if anyone else here does?

I purchased and adore the entire changling: the lost line. I also ran two very well-received games of werewolf: the forsaken and mage: the awakening.

Big fan. Found some minor issues in the blue book and some major ones in the lines themselves, but the system is robust enough that a little design duct tape fixed them pretty handily.

I'm relatively fond of the 1e of the New World of Darkness, to a limited degree. Requiem was pretty interesting (Ventrue and Nosferatu are my jam), and the nWoD version of Werewolf (Forsaken) kicked the old version of Werewolf's (Apocalypse) in the ass; it was much better. Just chiming in to say I'm a fan to a limited degree, provided you're including 1e with the thread's premise/question. Oh, and Changeling: the Lost was cool. I'm ambivalent on the other game lines (except Beast, which was a dumpster fire), though there were some interesting supplements I thought were neat.

Tried to play some stuff after the God Machine update; couldn't quite get into things after those changes (added too many mechanics in places there did not need to be mechanics and modified too much of existing stuff I liked), but I liked the 1e stuff pre-God Machine.

Beast is solely a God Machine project and has no connections with 1E at all.  Which I am fine with that dumpster fire being a second edition thing.  I am just sad that Demon was God Machine too because it has some pretty good ideas and people generally like that game a lot.  It was a good start for the God Machine line.  No the truly last 1E nWoD game was Mummy which I never played so I cannot really comment on it.  Not to mention I am a fan of the lesser games such as mortal, promethean, changeling, and hunter.  I tried geist once, but couldn't get a good understanding of it.  Big fan of second sight, skinchangers, and of course mirrors.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1095986Beast is solely a God Machine project and has no connections with 1E at all.  Which I am fine with that dumpster fire being a second edition thing.  I am just sad that Demon was God Machine too because it has some pretty good ideas and people generally like that game a lot.  It was a good start for the God Machine line.  No the truly last 1E nWoD game was Mummy which I never played so I cannot really comment on it.  Not to mention I am a fan of the lesser games such as mortal, promethean, changeling, and hunter.  I tried geist once, but couldn't get a good understanding of it.  Big fan of second sight, skinchangers, and of course mirrors.

I never got the appeal of Demon: The Descent. Then again, I never particularly liked the "evil omnipotent moron" thing they had going with the god-machine. What were the good ideas? If I knew that, then it might help me if I wanted to try writing guidelines for angel and demon splats of my own.

Quote from: Azraele;1095920I purchased and adore the entire changling: the lost line. I also ran two very well-received games of werewolf: the forsaken and mage: the awakening.

Big fan. Found some minor issues in the blue book and some major ones in the lines themselves, but the system is robust enough that a little design duct tape fixed them pretty handily.

This mirrors my own experience - but I had a *lot* of success with the Hunter line and my own version of Requiem. I stopped my considerable purchasing of the various lines around the time Demon dropped. Not interested in the direction OPP has gone, yes some of it has to do with their public behavior, which I can ignore, but it immediately had an impact on the quality of their work for the obvious reasons.

Changeling and Hunter by *far* are my favorites. Vampire, Werewolf and Mage - I largely approach with a toolkit view and don't play them with their in-game cosmology.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1096043I never got the appeal of Demon: The Descent. Then again, I never particularly liked the "evil omnipotent moron" thing they had going with the god-machine. What were the good ideas? If I knew that, then it might help me if I wanted to try writing guidelines for angel and demon splats of my own.

It was a game of proper espionage and laying low from the God Machine while blending in with the surrounding mortals.  The biggest thing that I like was the Cover/Pact subsystems.  Cover is basically integrity, but not really.  It is how well the demon can maintain his disguise till he is discovered by angels.  Basically you mimic as mortal and have to larp as that exact mortal.  If cover drops to zero the cover is lost forever and the demon is on the lam.  Which he has to find a new cover, or get caught by the angel police.  Pacts are means to produce new covers by either patchworks, or tricking mortals into selling their souls whole sale.

Quote from: tenbones;1096048Changeling and Hunter by *far* are my favorites. Vampire, Werewolf and Mage - I largely approach with a toolkit view and don't play them with their in-game cosmology.

I share this view too. Hence why I'm motivated to build entirely new settings to apply the toolkit formula to everything.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1096051It was a game of proper espionage and laying low from the God Machine while blending in with the surrounding mortals.  The biggest thing that I like was the Cover/Pact subsystems.  Cover is basically integrity, but not really.  It is how well the demon can maintain his disguise till he is discovered by angels.  Basically you mimic as mortal and have to larp as that exact mortal.  If cover drops to zero the cover is lost forever and the demon is on the lam.  Which he has to find a new cover, or get caught by the angel police.  Pacts are means to produce new covers by either patchworks, or tricking mortals into selling their souls whole sale.

While I'm not a fan of "angel police" (long story short: cosmology is a bitch), I think similar mechanics could work in any espionage context. It could be renamed "the masquerade" and applied to all splats, serving as a clear way to track whether the authorities and witch-hunters are on your trail.

---

[/HR]

On another note, here's another short dissertation on world building analysis. This time: animism.

OtD's section on spirits reflects the WoD view, but this is utterly divorced from animism in real world belief. Although many religions have an otherworld, nature spirits don't dwell in an otherworld. They exist in OUR world. Spirits aren't some abstract concept separate from material reality; they are literally the souls of everything. When you anthropomorphize animals, inanimate objects and the weather, you are ascribing them agency and spirit. That is the basis of animism.

Warhammer 40,000's Adeptus Mechanicus is an example of realistically practiced animism. They believe that machines have souls they call "machine spirits." These aren't incorporeal entities that attach themselves to machines, but souls no different than those ascribed to humans.

Animism is the foundation of most religions that exist today, since it is an extension of our psychological inclination to anthropomorphize things. It is very clearly present in our records of the Ancient Greek religion, which had a plurality of primordials, nymphs, demons and so forth.

A related concept is "magical thinking," or the belief that there is a causal relationship between things that cannot be verified by science. In other words, the belief that thoughts can affect reality. This is intimately tied with animism too, being another psychological predisposition of human beings.

Not much is known about most pre-Christian belief systems due to a lack of records. Fairies are the result of pre-Christian European beliefs being filtered through a Christian lens. They aren't a separate concept from spirits in general.

World building based on real world animism would require making a very different set of assumptions. The most visibly obvious of which is that spirits wouldn't exist separately from their material counterparts, if any. It would be closer to Exalted's Creation setting or WitchCraft's setting, I suppose.

The important questions would be: why are spirits important? how do they help/hinder characters? how do they drive plots? how do characters interact with them? etc

I'll try to answer those next post but feel free to chime in.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1096043I never got the appeal of Demon: The Descent.

Someone on The Pub described it, and I thought "Holy Crap, so that's what Demon is about. That is actually awesome."

I will see if I can find the post.

Quote from: K9ine;1094895I figured since RPG Pundit is an OSR guy most people here will not like these games since their more rule heavy, but I was wondering if anyone else here does?

I think you'll find there are plenty here who don't ascribe to Pundit's preferences (and he'd be among the first to tell you so).

To your question: not a fan of the setting genre/conceits, so I've never bothered with the system outside a very brief read of the rules (I like looking at different mechanics and systems). Had some players in my old D&D campaign 20-something years ago who really loved that system. But then, they loved the genre, as well.

Never played the oWod so I can't comment on that. I played the nWoD 1st edition for a few years. The system is quite ok even though it's a dice pool and I never really liked the combat in it. It was a bit boring. I always struggled with their GM advice, the narrow focus of the games and mostly with the pretentious flowerly language the books were written in. They want to beat you over the head with the same themes and this always caused me to get some sort of tunnel vision when reading the books instead of opening up a lot of different possibilities.

Then came the second edition, which didn't seem to fix any of these problems I had with it and instead made the system go from rules-medium to rules-heavy with all the extra bookkeeping. Beats, tilts, conditions etc. I didn't get it and I moved away from it. I like games that let the players make the game and let the GM react to it (aka sandbox), being rules-light or rules-medium, written in simple practical language, offers flexibility to adapt my own setting with the rules provided and opening up many possibilities what the GM cand do building the setting and what the players could do playing the game. So I like tables.

I use Unisystem's rules (Witchcraft) nowadays and for setting inspiration I often skim through Silent Legions and Dark Streets and Darker Secrets. Both offer many tables to make the setting my own and provide ideas for quests. I never look into the WoD nowadays. It's a shame really, because unlike the Pundit here I don't view D&D as the golden standard of rpg's. I really like that WoD moved away from the murder hobo style of playing rpg's and made different playstyle viable. It's no longer a sequence of combat encounters. But the books didn't work for me. If I read them the possibilities seem to be getting smaller instead of bigger.

Why Witchcraft and not a cinematic unsystem? What books / house rules do you use?

I love the nWoD / Chronicles stuff but it's very crunchy.

Pretty much the core and sometimes I use one of the Codex books. I use it for the basic system and I only need some of the low level psychic and medium powers for the players. I also allow warding and exorcism spells for the players. I want it to be horror and not urban fantasy so the psychic powers may resemble the kid from the Sixth Sense, but not anything like Charles Xavier. I use the classic version because I want it to be gritty. So I either have to tone down Witchcraft's pc's powers or use Conspiracy X system and completely replace the setting. Delta Green was also an option for using and in that case I had to cram in some rules for psychic powers.

In detail I only allow Mindsight, Mindtime and Mindview for the pc's. Death Speech and Death Vessel till level 3 and I also use it for other spirits than ghosts. The Warding and Spirit Mastery spell and Exorcism miracle for fighting ghosts, spirits, demons etc. Most other magic is for cultists and corrupts the mind. I use the Taint mechanic from the Abomination Codex for it, but you can also use the Seepage/Corruption mechanics from Con X.

I don't play WitchCraft but I do use it as inspiration for developing my own ideas, along with Everlasting, the universes of Darkness, and whatever else attracts my interest.

Right now I'm inspired by Nightlife, Feed, Dresden Files, Warhammer, Lost Girl and American Vampire, to devise an expanded treatment of vampires. I guess you could call it something of a mix of White Wolf's vampires, lost, and beasts. What defines these vampires in that they feed directly on humans in some way, but it could be anything from blood, flesh, sweet breads, breath, youth, memory, emotions, stamina, specific fears, etc. This isn't simply recharging their magic or being jerks about it, they need to do this to stay sane and avoid their hunger taking over. (And before you point it out, yes this is an addiction metaphor. I've already explained at length that using monsters as metaphors makes them more memorable.)

A la Discworld and Captain Kronos, all vampire myths and stories are simultaneously true depending on which vampires you're talking about. These vampires might not fit the stereotypes set by Bram Stoker and Anne Rice, but they're vampires nonetheless. But while thematically this division makes sense, from a backstory perspective it feels like I'm just classifying a bunch of unrelated creatures as vampires based on their predation of humans. And yes, that is exactly what I'm doing. If I wanted to address that, then probably the simplest way I've thought of so far is to burrow a conceit from the fanfiction expanded universe based on the works of Philip Jose Farmer as explained by the MONSTAAH fanfics. All of these traditional and non-traditional vampires can trace their origins back to a parallel vampire-dominated universe based on Starside from Necroscope, the Spiral Yssgaroth from Doctor Who, wherever the vampire intelligences in Rifts came from, etc.

Quote from: Forge;1095970I'm relatively fond of the 1e of the New World of Darkness, to a limited degree. Requiem was pretty interesting (Ventrue and Nosferatu are my jam), and the nWoD version of Werewolf (Forsaken) kicked the old version of Werewolf's (Apocalypse) in the ass; it was much better. Just chiming in to say I'm a fan to a limited degree, provided you're including 1e with the thread's premise/question. Oh, and Changeling: the Lost was cool. I'm ambivalent on the other game lines (except Beast, which was a dumpster fire), though there were some interesting supplements I thought were neat.

Tried to play some stuff after the God Machine update; couldn't quite get into things after those changes (added too many mechanics in places there did not need to be mechanics and modified too much of existing stuff I liked), but I liked the 1e stuff pre-God Machine.

Agreed. Between the God-Machine, the over-emphasis of the Strix in Requiem 2e, and the utter abominations that we call Demon: The Descent and Beast: The Primordial, I am of the firm belief that New World of Darkness 1E is superior to Chronicles of Darkness 2E in every way.

I have only played a little bit of 1ed nWoD. But I do prefer it over the old games. I only actually played adventures centered around mortals and that is the line I like most from nWoD. Except from the main line I like Hunter:tV most, with a nod also to Vampire:R. Not so keen on the others. And I really dislike the Godmachine cosmology in 2ed nWoD/CoD especially (yes it was sketched out in 1ed and I didn't like it at at all then either). Demon:The Fallen was my favorite of oWoD and would not touch the new version with a ten foot pole.

Other than that I think nWoD did improve a lot of thing both int rules and settings. For example it made Vampire less cringy in my eyes and made me even interested in running  a campaign centered on Belials Brood.

If I had the time and player's (and more money) I might be interested for collecting more of the mortals line.

Yeah the mortal 1st edition books are superior.  Just get yourself second sight, skinchangers, both armory reloaded, and mirrors to get yourself all set.  As for hunters?  I love some of the compacts and conspiracies, but I am going to be real.  Just make up a merit, get yourself witchfinders, and then get slashers if your into Friday the 13th.  Witchfinders is excellent because it offers a toolkit system with guidelines into producing your own powers which serves better than the hunter core book.

My setting mostly consists of hunters/investigators, spirits/ghosts/demons, all kinds of cults and witches/sorcerors/necromancers. Think of it as Urban Shadows with the Mortality, Power (cults/mages) and Wild (spirits) faction there and the Night faction pretty much absent. Although there are some anomalies.

1st edition nWoD had better rules or more streamlined, but I thought the settings were pretty bland. And you needed a lot of books to get what I was aiming for. I liked that 2nd edition put a lot of stuff I use for a horror game in one core book like psychic powers, rules for spirits, rules for cursed items etc. But the rules were too heavy for me and too much bookkeeping. It changed the stuff I liked and it didn't change the things that annoyed me. I believe it was made with a lot of input of the community, but I have no clue what went through their heads creating these rules.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;1097204I believe it was made with a lot of input of the community, but I have no clue what went through their heads creating these rules.

You and everyone else.

Whenever Onyx Path has a good idea, it is marred by poor execution.

Long time bit posting.... I quite like the nWoD (1st edition?). I have a few of the books and I am just getting into changeling the lost. Think I'm sticking with 1e rather than get bogged down with extra crunch.

One thing I noticed is navigating the line of WoD material. It went oWod to nWod, then God machine dropped, everything went bleugh and Anniversary editions came out and 5th editions and and and.... Marketing snafu from someone coming to this from the outside.

Works out I have nWoD 1e and I can play with that quite happily without some meta-narrative. I'm happy.

I've just discovered nWoD 1e Changeling the Lost. Cor!! Like that one, though the flowery language and switching between he/she every other paragraph is tiring.

Really want to play this one. Any advice running it?

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;1098506I've just discovered nWoD 1e Changeling the Lost. Cor!! Like that one, though the flowery language and switching between he/she every other paragraph is tiring.

Really want to play this one. Any advice running it?

While there should be drama in the freehold you got to remember this isn't fucking Vampire: The Constantly Backstabbing Each Other.  To join a freehold and get involved in the courts you gotta make a pledge.  This pledge is supernaturally enforced by the wyrd to prevent betrayals to the freehold and it is a sign that the freehold can be trusted if you are a member.  Do not use that pledge to as a bad deal to beat your players upside the head by rulers of the courts/freehold.  In general if it looks like a bad deal changelings avoid that freehold because they don't want another slave master.  Most STs forget this and make bad pledges designed to fuck over the PCs.  Which they then make shitty npc rulers that abuse the PCs.  In chats that do this the ST is always scratching his/her head when I choose to play a changeling that isn't part of any freehold.

Second advice is to realize there are things beyond the freehold.  Independent changelings who trust no freeholds, a group trying to form their own freehold, and some psychos.  Point is you don't know what to expect, but not every thing is out to get you either.  In all honest with such low wyrd ratings the fair folk would have a hard time finding you which is the biggest advantage of independent changelings.  They can hide better than a freehold filled with changelings with a few high wyrd changelings.  Not to mention they have better mobility than a freehold.  The downside is they have no defense against a true fae if they are spotted, but that is the risk of being independent.  Interesting npcs if you ask me, or a interesting game as well.

Third is take notice of your city population.  If your doing a small city it would most likely only have one freehold.  If it is a large city with millions of people, then you can have dozens of freeholds.  Your freehold might have alliances with other freeholds and at war with others for various reasons.  Most likely resources for goblin fruit with positive effects.  Point is this could create interesting npcs and adventure hooks for you to use.

Finally ignore the theme of the game.  This is what really been holding back any White Wolf and Onyx Path games.  Not to mention produce many shitty STs who think they are doing a world a favor by forcing everyone to be a slave to some game dev who has no idea what is going on at your table.  Fucking ignore the theme and run your game naturally.  You would be surprised how much fun the World of Darkness can be without the shackles holding you down.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1098546Finally ignore the theme of the game.  This is what really been holding back any White Wolf and Onyx Path games.  Not to mention produce many shitty STs who think they are doing a world a favor by forcing everyone to be a slave to some game dev who has no idea what is going on at your table.  Fucking ignore the theme and run your game naturally.  You would be surprised how much fun the World of Darkness can be without the shackles holding you down.

Can you expand on this a bit? I quite like the idea of things like nWod, VtR and CtL because they are not bogged down with metaplot. But how do you see each game's theme as potentially limiting it in play? (my WoD exposure is virtually nil)

Quote from: Snowman0147;1098546Finally ignore the theme of the game.  This is what really been holding back any White Wolf and Onyx Path games.  Not to mention produce many shitty STs who think they are doing a world a favor by forcing everyone to be a slave to some game dev who has no idea what is going on at your table.  Fucking ignore the theme and run your game naturally.  You would be surprised how much fun the World of Darkness can be without the shackles holding you down.

YES! FUCK YES!

This guy gets it better than any other World of Darkness fan I have ever known.

Quote THEMES
Themes are the human dramas that make your chronicle compelling. The overarching themes of Changeling: The Lost are beauty/agony, clarity/madness, and lost/found. In the tension between the opposites, one finds the game. Naturally, these aren't going to be the only things you'll explore -- the Lost have to deal with very mundane issues in addition to being in the liminal space between humanity and Fae. Themes like "lost love," "poverty," and "hunger" could all work in a Changeling chronicle. Each might mean a very different thing to each character. "Loyalty," for example, could mean protecting one's freehold, sheltering one's family even when they no longer claim them as kin, or hiding one's undying fealty to one's undying master in Arcadia.

I seem to have answered my own question.
Link (http://theonyxpath.com/storytelling-changeling-the-lost/)

I haven't played anything like that since the original editions of Vampire and Mage. Of those two, I found Mage to be more interesting and engaging. I had quite of few of the 1st edition Mage splat-books, but I sold them off years ago. I think I probably spent more time reading them than actually playing the game. I thought the Mage "fluff" was better than the game system.

Quote from: BarefootGaijin;1098570Can you expand on this a bit? I quite like the idea of things like nWod, VtR and CtL because they are not bogged down with metaplot. But how do you see each game's theme as potentially limiting it in play? (my WoD exposure is virtually nil)

Oh I had plenty of personal experiences in which people got hostile with me because I didn't want to fit in the themes of the game.  Which if you look at most of the themes in White Wolf books it is usual intended to be a misery tour to make your character's feel like worthless shits.  This is why they have the toxic die hard fan base, the shitty STs that want to see people suffer, and game devs who think they are truly brilliant artist who are far removed from the unwashed masses that play D&D.  When a game express themes all too much it is a red flag of bad things to come.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1098829Oh I had plenty of personal experiences in which people got hostile with me because I didn't want to fit in the themes of the game.  Which if you look at most of the themes in White Wolf books it is usual intended to be a misery tour to make your character's feel like worthless shits.  This is why they have the toxic die hard fan base, the shitty STs that want to see people suffer, and game devs who think they are truly brilliant artist who are far removed from the unwashed masses that play D&D.  When a game express themes all too much it is a red flag of bad things to come.

Finally!

It's good to see someone who sees eye to eye on me with World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1098834Finally!

It's good to see someone who sees eye to eye on me with World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness.

I been saying this for years.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1098829Oh I had plenty of personal experiences in which people got hostile with me because I didn't want to fit in the themes of the game.  Which if you look at most of the themes in White Wolf books it is usual intended to be a misery tour to make your character's feel like worthless shits.  This is why they have the toxic die hard fan base, the shitty STs that want to see people suffer, and game devs who think they are truly brilliant artist who are far removed from the unwashed masses that play D&D.  When a game express themes all too much it is a red flag of bad things to come.

The themes aren't the problem. Themes are a great way to tie together what would otherwise be a bunch of random vignettes. The problem is the pretension: the fandom takes itself way too seriously.

An emo goth game works best as a parody of soap operas. So I give PCs stunt bonuses and XP for making characters act as melodramatically as possible. The point is to have fun, so have fun in a way that makes the rules useful. Otherwise you might as well play a superhero game.

If I wanted to make a retroclone throwback to Nightlife, The Everlasting, WitchCraft, World of Darkness, etc as a supplement for the Opening the Dark SRD, then do you think anybody would go for it?

What sort of lore and gameplay would you guys like to see in such a game and what advice would you give to someone wanting to write that game?

Hah, I haven't visited these forums in a hot minute and whaddya' know, whole buncha' talk about NWOD. Also a few peeps trying to say they "love" NWOD who weren't doing that at all only so long ago... but hey, people can change. ;)

Might add anyone getting into NWOD should start withg Hunter The Vigil. Best entry point and best game of all time in the series. It's consistently the most popular and well-regarded game. And you don't even a play a monster!

Also, saw some mention of Changeling and stuff to do with freeholds and courts and independents while skimming pages. Who the hell is playing an "independent"? That's a death sentence out-the-gate. Also, sounds like a Tier One game writ large: Tier Two and Tier Three are very different games

I strongly discourage anyone playing/hosting Beast. The point of those games is playing rapists, torturers, general maniacs and sadists who's victims "deserve" their treatment -- headed-up by an "alleged" child molester as the lead designer and considering the ultra-creepy way in which its written, yeah no.

Storytelling System(NWOD 1e) is the best system that White Wolf came out with before their demise bar none. Storyteller System (OWOD incl. V20) can eat shit. Bloodlines in Requiem saved Vampire from the cesspool of "a Clan for everything": /thread.

What else is there in here that I may dispense hard-won wisdom on? :cool: