Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 04:25:26 PM
For people who can't find a group to play in person or that want to play with friends that moved far away.

I agree with this.  Also, VTT's can be good way to play games that are not D&D.  Seems easier to find non-D&D players this way.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 04:25:26 PMTo be a video game it would need to eschew the GM and have an AI instead.

Very true.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 04:25:26 PMI do agree that some features might make people lazy, or not using them make you better at stuff...

But I don't play TTRPGs to get better at math or to improve my memory, heck we have one player that knows by heart ALL the AD&D2e shit, I mean even the Player Options for fucks sake, and he's playing with us on a VTT.

I'm not getting younger and yet just by playing with him my rules mastery is improving, I guess there's some way to have the VTT give you the rules but our DM doesn't use that feature, so when any doubt arises we read the books or this guy just of the top of his head tells us the exact rule.

Which sometimes it's just out of curiosity since the DM has his houserules in place.

Exactly.  All of this.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 12, 2023, 07:48:38 AM
I'm curious now: let's say you HAD to play a game online (no one near you or whatever). Is there anyone who would argue that in fact just playing on a video chat, without a VTT, might be a better experience than playing with a VTT?

Because I suspect that the VTT would have, for example, very little applicability to the type of campaigns I run. I never use miniatures or floorplans, it's all theater of the mind. The VTT might just be a big distraction/annoyance.

Better experience?  No.  But if you are not using maps and minis and you can trust your players to role their own dice fairly, then a VTT wouldn't be needed.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 12, 2023, 07:48:38 AM
I'm curious now: let's say you HAD to play a game online (no one near you or whatever). Is there anyone who would argue that in fact just playing on a video chat, without a VTT, might be a better experience than playing with a VTT?

Because I suspect that the VTT would have, for example, very little applicability to the type of campaigns I run. I never use miniatures or floorplans, it's all theater of the mind. The VTT might just be a big distraction/annoyance.

It could be a better experience, especially if you already don't use maps and minis. At the very least you won't have people fussing with tech that you won't be using.

I use a minimal VTT, but often we have sessions where we never touch it. Sometimes there's no combat or very simple combat.

I find that eye candy helps with remote gaming, but you don't need a VTT for that. You can just use your video app to share images or video or even hold up a picture to the webcam. I often drop a piece of art into chat.

Quote from: SHARK on April 11, 2023, 01:14:05 PM
Greetings!

Yes, Rytrasmi. I suppose I would use a VTT if I absolutely had to. Again, friends living in other states, yeah, you need a VTT. That's fine.

Personally, though, I always prefer face-to face, in person gaming. ANALOG BABY! That's right. Books, paper, dice, models. That's all that is needed. Imagination. A group of friends.

An, well, also some drinks and a few fine cigars.

Yes, I am an old school dinosaur. I don't need computers or cell phones at the game table. Get way from the fucking screens and shit. Fucking UNPLUG.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

You said it, Shark! Face-to-face is the best, whenever possible. And lots of the software that's sold as helpful is mostly just a distraction.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 12, 2023, 07:48:38 AM
I'm curious now: let's say you HAD to play a game online (no one near you or whatever). Is there anyone who would argue that in fact just playing on a video chat, without a VTT, might be a better experience than playing with a VTT?

Because I suspect that the VTT would have, for example, very little applicability to the type of campaigns I run. I never use miniatures or floorplans, it's all theater of the mind. The VTT might just be a big distraction/annoyance.

100% me for sure. In 2020 I played in two regular online campaigns -- one via VTT and one using just Google Meet. The VTT game dragged terribly due to VTT management, and the players frequently needed verbal descriptions to augment what they were seeing (or ignoring).

The Meet game was ToTM, and rocked.

I've played in other campaigns with VTTs, that didn't last as long because they sucked too badly. I've never once had a net-positive experience with any of them, and from what I can see WoTC's will be the worst yet, as it drifts even further into RPG-disruption territory.

I'd be ok playing on Discord with audio or text chat. Either an in app dice roller or I roll all the dice. I always verify dice rolls, just in case. Once I found a cheater and it destroyed my desire to run that campaign. I used to GM in dragonsfoot text chat until they lost the dice roller, that was fine.

Quote from: S'mon on April 12, 2023, 10:56:05 AM
I'd be ok playing on Discord with audio or text chat. Either an in app dice roller or I roll all the dice. I always verify dice rolls, just in case. Once I found a cheater and it destroyed my desire to run that campaign.

Yep, I've used Discord dice rollers to solve that problem. Dice Maiden is one that's very easy to use.

Quote from: Zalman on April 12, 2023, 10:54:33 AM
100% me for sure. In 2020 I played in two regular online campaigns -- one via VTT and one using just Google Meet. The VTT game dragged terribly due to VTT management, and the players frequently needed verbal descriptions to augment what they were seeing (or ignoring).

The Meet game was ToTM, and rocked.

I've played in other campaigns with VTTs, that didn't last as long because they sucked too badly. I've never once had a net-positive experience with any of them, and from what I can see WoTC's will be the worst yet, as it drifts even further into RPG-disruption territory.

Sounds like either a bad VTT or Bad GM/DM (or both)

Fantasy grounds which I use for online games allows for maps which shows people exactly what they see.  Though I give it a bit more detail.

Quote from: S'mon on April 12, 2023, 10:56:05 AM
I'd be ok playing on Discord with audio or text chat. Either an in app dice roller or I roll all the dice. I always verify dice rolls, just in case. Once I found a cheater and it destroyed my desire to run that campaign. I used to GM in dragonsfoot text chat until they lost the dice roller, that was fine.

I'll never truly understand the people who cheat in a cooperative game. Since I only just became a TTRPG gamer in the past seven years or so, I don't have experience outside of the "modern" gaming scene so I don't really have much to compare it to on the old school side. I can say that there does seem to be a problem with cheating on rolls or during character creation when it comes to the newer crowd. I suspect much of that is a result of a generation of kids who have grown up sheltered from any real failure and completely unable to see the value of flaws in character development, but I'm also rapidly approaching "Get off my lawn" age territory, so take that for what it's worth.

Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 12, 2023, 11:42:53 AM
I'll never truly understand the people who cheat in a cooperative game. Since I only just became a TTRPG gamer in the past seven years or so, I don't have experience outside of the "modern" gaming scene so I don't really have much to compare it to on the old school side. I can say that there does seem to be a problem with cheating on rolls or during character creation when it comes to the newer crowd. I suspect much of that is a result of a generation of kids who have grown up sheltered from any real failure and completely unable to see the value of flaws in character development, but I'm also rapidly approaching "Get off my lawn" age territory, so take that for what it's worth.

I agree.

I had a problem player and one of the issues I had was that he cheated his dice rolls.  He succeed way too often (like on almost all of his rolls) and there was just no way he could be statistically that lucky.

I confronted him on the issues I had with him including the cheating.  When I mentioned it he didn't deny it.

I kicked him out of the game.  I hate cheaters.

Quote from: Zalman on April 12, 2023, 10:54:33 AM
100% me for sure. In 2020 I played in two regular online campaigns -- one via VTT and one using just Google Meet. The VTT game dragged terribly due to VTT management, and the players frequently needed verbal descriptions to augment what they were seeing (or ignoring).

The Meet game was ToTM, and rocked.

I've played in other campaigns with VTTs, that didn't last as long because they sucked too badly. I've never once had a net-positive experience with any of them, and from what I can see WoTC's will be the worst yet, as it drifts even further into RPG-disruption territory.

I like to watch/listen to actual plays (when I can find a good one) and I've become a big fan of the way Craig from Third Floor Wars runs his stuff on VTTs. Basically he uses maps when necessary for travel (important for Forbidden Lands), and otherwise uses it only for rolls and occasionally very loose positioning when it comes to combat. His style is very much "tell, don't show", which seems to do a pretty good job of keeping everybody focused on the story and the game, even when there's a technical issue with the VTT. I'm really hoping he decides to run a campaign with The Darkest House in it because, a) I would really love a chance to actually play it, and b) I want to see what he does with the descriptions for the house itself and all of the NPCs and creatures inside it. I can see that be utterly terrifying, which would be perfect.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 12, 2023, 07:48:38 AM
I'm curious now: let's say you HAD to play a game online (no one near you or whatever). Is there anyone who would argue that in fact just playing on a video chat, without a VTT, might be a better experience than playing with a VTT?

Because I suspect that the VTT would have, for example, very little applicability to the type of campaigns I run. I never use miniatures or floorplans, it's all theater of the mind. The VTT might just be a big distraction/annoyance.

Might be? Yes
It's guaranteed to be? No
If you run ONLY theater of the mind campaigns you DO NOT need a VTT, and it might end up getting on your way.
By what you say you would also kick out anyone that has problems functioning without SOME visual representation of the stuff, be it full on maps, floor plans or just a grid paper with a map drawn on it by hand + some miniatures.
Meaning most if not all people with autism (like myself).

VTTs are just a tool, not THE tool.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2023, 12:05:41 PM
VTTs are just a tool, not THE tool.

I agree with this 100%

VTT's are just a tool but not the only one.  They are there to help.  Nothing else.

Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 12, 2023, 11:42:53 AM
I'll never truly understand the people who cheat in a cooperative game. Since I only just became a TTRPG gamer in the past seven years or so, I don't have experience outside of the "modern" gaming scene so I don't really have much to compare it to on the old school side. I can say that there does seem to be a problem with cheating on rolls or during character creation when it comes to the newer crowd. I suspect much of that is a result of a generation of kids who have grown up sheltered from any real failure and completely unable to see the value of flaws in character development, but I'm also rapidly approaching "Get off my lawn" age territory, so take that for what it's worth.

There have always been people who will cheat (lie, steal, etc.) just to see if they can get away with it.  If you don't stop them, they'll keep pushing.  If you put blocks, they'll try to get around them.  The only real answer is to distance yourself from them.  There's a branch of this personality type that won't do anything dishonest with any real stakes in place.  It's a risk/reward calculus.  They love to cheat and the thrill of getting away with it and the risk of getting caught--but they don't want to risk any serious repercussions.  Cheating during an RPG is pretty much exactly the kind of thing they'll do.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 12, 2023, 12:09:06 PM

Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 12, 2023, 11:42:53 AM
I'll never truly understand the people who cheat in a cooperative game. Since I only just became a TTRPG gamer in the past seven years or so, I don't have experience outside of the "modern" gaming scene so I don't really have much to compare it to on the old school side. I can say that there does seem to be a problem with cheating on rolls or during character creation when it comes to the newer crowd. I suspect much of that is a result of a generation of kids who have grown up sheltered from any real failure and completely unable to see the value of flaws in character development, but I'm also rapidly approaching "Get off my lawn" age territory, so take that for what it's worth.

There have always been people who will cheat (lie, steal, etc.) just to see if they can get away with it.  If you don't stop them, they'll keep pushing.  If you put blocks, they'll try to get around them.  The only real answer is to distance yourself from them.  There's a branch of this personality type that won't do anything dishonest with any real stakes in place.  It's a risk/reward calculus.  They love to cheat and the thrill of getting away with it and the risk of getting caught--but they don't want to risk any serious repercussions.  Cheating during an RPG is pretty much exactly the kind of thing they'll do.

For sure, but I do wonder if it's something that has become more prevalent with the modern crowd due to so much of the "me, me, me" mentality spawned by social media, where so many players seem to have issues with main character syndrome. There have certainly always been liars and cheats, but I do think we're seeing an upswing in the ones motivated more for the attention or because of fear of failure.

Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 12, 2023, 12:26:17 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 12, 2023, 12:09:06 PM

Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on April 12, 2023, 11:42:53 AM
I'll never truly understand the people who cheat in a cooperative game. Since I only just became a TTRPG gamer in the past seven years or so, I don't have experience outside of the "modern" gaming scene so I don't really have much to compare it to on the old school side. I can say that there does seem to be a problem with cheating on rolls or during character creation when it comes to the newer crowd. I suspect much of that is a result of a generation of kids who have grown up sheltered from any real failure and completely unable to see the value of flaws in character development, but I'm also rapidly approaching "Get off my lawn" age territory, so take that for what it's worth.

There have always been people who will cheat (lie, steal, etc.) just to see if they can get away with it.  If you don't stop them, they'll keep pushing.  If you put blocks, they'll try to get around them.  The only real answer is to distance yourself from them.  There's a branch of this personality type that won't do anything dishonest with any real stakes in place.  It's a risk/reward calculus.  They love to cheat and the thrill of getting away with it and the risk of getting caught--but they don't want to risk any serious repercussions.  Cheating during an RPG is pretty much exactly the kind of thing they'll do.

For sure, but I do wonder if it's something that has become more prevalent with the modern crowd due to so much of the "me, me, me" mentality spawned by social media, where so many players seem to have issues with main character syndrome. There have certainly always been liars and cheats, but I do think we're seeing an upswing in the ones motivated more for the attention or because of fear of failure.

My 10th level wizard has a back pack of holding that unfolds into a tent, one time we used it to rest (time inside works different) to speed our recovering spells... Well, of all 5 of us (the DM included) nobody remembered that we had the thing backwards, time inside it is half the time outside, not double.

Long story short, while doing some Character Sheet organizing I stumbled upon the note I made when Duncan first got it... Fuck me -I thought- we cheated, we're gonna have to re-do the session!

So I contacted the DM over Discord and told him the mistake, how it was a honest one and that I thought we should re-do the session.

Cheating, fudging dice, etc remove the sense of risk, where's the fun?