Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 11, 2023, 10:29:00 AM
This was more about I don't see this place or "Us" as 'the correct ones". In a place of real free speech, we can expect dissent and disagreement between ourselves.
I do think rytrasmi is being obstinate. Im just saying petty behaviour like this is to be expected sometimes when real free speech can happen.

Fair point.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 10:00:59 AM
My initial post was simply to point out that using your own hands and mind instead of relying on the computer is actually pretty good and something people should try. I say that as someone who's tried lots of tools, like initiative trackers, both in VTTs and as separate programs. After trying a lot of those conveniences, I have come to find pencil and paper to be superior.

Also, the comment about obesity was in jest in response to Banshee's equally non-serious comment about jumping jacks.

That can happen on VTT's.  GMs/DMs can overrule roles, VTT's are just facilities to gather people to play tabletop role playing games.  They are nothing like video games because at the end of the day, the DM/GM has full control.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 10:43:35 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 10:00:59 AM
My initial post was simply to point out that using your own hands and mind instead of relying on the computer is actually pretty good and something people should try. I say that as someone who's tried lots of tools, like initiative trackers, both in VTTs and as separate programs. After trying a lot of those conveniences, I have come to find pencil and paper to be superior.

Also, the comment about obesity was in jest in response to Banshee's equally non-serious comment about jumping jacks.

That can happen on VTT's.  GMs/DMs can overrule roles, VTT's are just facilities to gather people to play tabletop role playing games.  They are nothing like video games because at the end of the day, the DM/GM has full control.

Dude, you accuse me of having no experience with what I'm talking about and then you nitpick a tiny part of my post where I fully explain how I know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, nothing like video games, if you ignore the screen, coded character sheets, 3d models, dynamic lighting, special effects, automatic calculations, event scripting, and subcriptions. Not a single similarity!

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 11:24:27 AM

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 10:43:35 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 10:00:59 AM
My initial post was simply to point out that using your own hands and mind instead of relying on the computer is actually pretty good and something people should try. I say that as someone who's tried lots of tools, like initiative trackers, both in VTTs and as separate programs. After trying a lot of those conveniences, I have come to find pencil and paper to be superior.

Also, the comment about obesity was in jest in response to Banshee's equally non-serious comment about jumping jacks.

That can happen on VTT's.  GMs/DMs can overrule roles, VTT's are just facilities to gather people to play tabletop role playing games.  They are nothing like video games because at the end of the day, the DM/GM has full control.

Dude, you accuse me of having no experience with what I'm talking about and then you nitpick a tiny part of my post where I fully explain how I know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, nothing like video games, if you ignore the screen, coded character sheets, 3d models, dynamic lighting, special effects, automatic calculations, event scripting, and subcriptions. Not a single similarity!

I might be wrong but if not then no other VTT (except Tabletop Simulator) has 3d models.
Dynamic lighting... Something you can turn off.
Special effects... You mean the animated spells and stuff like that? It's something you don't have to use on the other VTTs that have it.
Automatic calculations... Something you don't have to use.
What's event scripting?
Subscriptions... There's 100% gratis VTTs and some that have a gratis tier.

Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.

I answered this question in detail above, so obviously you didn't read that. I have nothing against you personally, but I'm tired of trying to discuss things with reactionary people who don't read and are hostile to opinions they disagree with.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 10:00:59 AM

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 08:43:49 AM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 06:21:09 PM
Everybody has their own opinion on what "good" even is. I see this place as a area for free speech, not necessarily because we are the #factions&reasonable

Yes, but when someone says something about VTT's such as they prevent things that they DO NOT prevent because I have used them for a long time, I am going to call them out.

I clearly think that rytrasmi has never used a VTT and is speaking from a place where they don't have actual knowledge.  I do.

Just look at their comment about Obesity which you even objected to.

When I talk about something I want there to be facts, not just hyperbole and made up facts because they have an axe to grind.

I've used VTTs, notably Roll20, Foundry, Owlbear, and Shmeppy. I continue to use only Owlbear and Shmeppy because they mostly stay out of the way.

Why would I disparage a tool that brings together gamers? Besides the obvious benefit of allowing people to game at a distance, VTTs actually make it possible to assemble a group to play lesser-known or obscure games, which I have done and continue to do.

To be perfectly clear, the aspects of VTTs that I'm critical of are automatic calculations, coded rules sets, flashy graphics, and things like that. Obviously many people like those for sake of convenience and to keep things moving, like you said above. I consider those tools the start down a slippery slope towards video gaming. In my opinion, they directly oppose a core aspect of tabletop games, which is knowledge and discussion of the rules. As automated features keep getting added, and the video that started this thread demonstrates that WotC is working towards this, then rules knowledge and discussion will more and more be delegated to the computer. I'm not saying that haggling about rules is fun. Rather, if everyone knows the rules, then games run very smoothly and whether or not a rule applies in a certain situation is always open to discussion. In my experience VTTs often get in the way of that.

Obviously, automatic addition of a modifier to a roll-to-hit is no big deal. So lets make that easier and calculate damage. Oh, heck, there's a save and a crit. Let's have the computer look those up, too. If that continues to its logical conclusion, then a player will just push a button and an enemy will die. Is this some strawman I constructed to win an argument? I suppose it's possible, but that's not my intent. Most players and even some GMs, especially casual ones, are very lazy. Many have barely any understanding of the rules. This kind of player will flock to feature rich VTTs as a form of passive entertainment. How does this affect me? The same as any big change to a hobby: others will come to expect this kind of thing and it will be harder to find people who play the way I prefer.

Owlbear has a design philosophy of minimal interference and simply providing what remoteness takes away from gamers: a map, tokens, and dice. They've had some feature creep with 2.0, but whatever, it's still minimal. Shmeppy goes even further and eschews fancy graphics for sake of tools that allow you to draw quickly, thereby allowing more fluid improvisation. Their philosophy is even more minimal: i.e., fancy maps and tokens distract from the theatre of mind experience.

So I am not just some random Luddite on the internet raging against tech. There are others who share the same opinions as to what makes a good game and some of them even make VTTs that embody these opinions.

I have no idea why criticism of feature rich VTTs has brought so much vitriol from people around here. You guys like your Cadillac VTTs. How does my opinion affect that? Do people feel threatened by different opinions?

My initial post was simply to point out that using your own hands and mind instead of relying on the computer is actually pretty good and something people should try. I say that as someone who's tried lots of tools, like initiative trackers, both in VTTs and as separate programs. After trying a lot of those conveniences, I have come to find pencil and paper to be superior.

Also, the comment about obesity was in jest in response to Banshee's equally non-serious comment about jumping jacks.

Greetings!

Yes, Rytrasmi. I suppose I would use a VTT if I absolutely had to. Again, friends living in other states, yeah, you need a VTT. That's fine.

Personally, though, I always prefer face-to face, in person gaming. ANALOG BABY! That's right. Books, paper, dice, models. That's all that is needed. Imagination. A group of friends.

An, well, also some drinks and a few fine cigars.

Yes, I am an old school dinosaur. I don't need computers or cell phones at the game table. Get way from the fucking screens and shit. Fucking UNPLUG.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 12:51:46 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.

I answered this question in detail above, so obviously you didn't read that. I have nothing against you personally, but I'm tired of trying to discuss things with reactionary people who don't read and are hostile to opinions they disagree with.

And you focused on that instead of the stuff above in the same post.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
I might be wrong but if not then no other VTT (except Tabletop Simulator) has 3d models.
Dynamic lighting... Something you can turn off.
Special effects... You mean the animated spells and stuff like that? It's something you don't have to use on the other VTTs that have it.
Automatic calculations... Something you don't have to use.
What's event scripting?
Subscriptions... There's 100% gratis VTTs and some that have a gratis tier.

Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.

I use Fantasy Grounds and it either doesn't have these features or like you say can be turned off.

VTT's are nothing like video games.  They are just an aid to play.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PMHave you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.

Hell D&DOne doesn't appear to offer any automation features at all from what they appear to say. It's basically virtual minifigs, rulers, and dice. Which I mean makes it double suck in my mind, but whatever.

I use some automation in my games. In games where positioning ends up very important or with complex layouts I think LOS generation is a very handy resource. Mental visualization and presentation of 3D space is not a skill everybody has equally.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 10:00:59 AMDo people feel threatened by different opinions?

Because you're being an asshole about it. "Just stating facts yo" is just such a common way to hide asshole disparaging behavior. "Look I'm just saying that your face is covered in pimples and your buck teeth need corrective surgery". My obesity point was made because it's engaging in the same sort of hide-behind behavior. Just as much that TTRPGs cause obesity, doing minor arithmetic by hand increases your skills, and book referencing increases rules mastery. When it can just as much mean a much slower game where all the players ask the GM what every element means and have them do all the maths and memorization for them. Especially if you're referencing lazy GMs and players. If those people where truly lazy an uninvolved, your not going to get them to love the game and read the rules simply due to a lack of automation features. Their probably just gonna hang out at half-effort.

Im in no way "threatened" by your "truth to power" opinions. I play in person on Saturdays with no machines besides virtual books, and with a VTT with some minor scripting on Thursdays. I think Saturdays are better but everything else you say is basically misplaced and disingenuous. Everybody who has jumped ship to videogames has basically done so already.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 01:17:30 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 12:51:46 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.

I answered this question in detail above, so obviously you didn't read that. I have nothing against you personally, but I'm tired of trying to discuss things with reactionary people who don't read and are hostile to opinions they disagree with.

And you focused on that instead of the stuff above in the same post.

Let me go back and reply item by item despite the fact that you didn't show me the same courtesy. Because I'm a doormat and also a personal secretary.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 11, 2023, 02:26:17 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 10:00:59 AMDo people feel threatened by different opinions?

Because you're being an asshole about it. "Just stating facts yo" is just such a common way to hide asshole disparaging behavior. "Look I'm just saying that your face is covered in pimples and your buck teeth need corrective surgery". My obesity point was made because it's engaging in the same sort of hide-behind behavior. Just as much that TTRPGs cause obesity, doing minor arithmetic by hand increases your skills, and book referencing increases rules mastery. When it can just as much mean a much slower game where all the players ask the GM what every element means and have them do all the maths and memorization for them. Especially if you're referencing lazy GMs and players. If those people where truly lazy an uninvolved, your not going to get them to love the game and read the rules simply due to a lack of automation features. Their probably just gonna hang out at half-effort.

Im in no way "threatened" by your "truth to power" opinions. I play in person on Saturdays with no machines besides virtual books, and with a VTT with some minor scripting on Thursdays. I think Saturdays are better but everything else you say is basically misplaced and disingenuous. Everybody who has jumped ship to videogames has basically done so already.

Where are you getting this from?

I stated my opinion based on my experience and I suggested that feature rich VTTs are a hybrid game. Your reply to that was to say disingenuous and onetruewayism.

I made no value judgement about a hybrid game being any better or worse, you're reading that into what I said. And even after I clarify that I quite like minimal VTTs, you stand by your misapprehension of what I said and call me an asshole.

If you disagree, then kindly explain why you were so hostile to my opening post.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 03:02:15 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 01:17:30 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 11, 2023, 12:51:46 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.

I answered this question in detail above, so obviously you didn't read that. I have nothing against you personally, but I'm tired of trying to discuss things with reactionary people who don't read and are hostile to opinions they disagree with.

And you focused on that instead of the stuff above in the same post.

Let me go back and reply item by item despite the fact that you didn't show me the same courtesy. Because I'm a doormat and also a personal secretary.

Or I honestly didn't see your previous post, but whatever, have a good day.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 01:49:27 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 11, 2023, 12:21:26 PM
I might be wrong but if not then no other VTT (except Tabletop Simulator) has 3d models.
Dynamic lighting... Something you can turn off.
Special effects... You mean the animated spells and stuff like that? It's something you don't have to use on the other VTTs that have it.
Automatic calculations... Something you don't have to use.
What's event scripting?
Subscriptions... There's 100% gratis VTTs and some that have a gratis tier.

Have you ever used one? Because it looks to me you're talking about all VTTs as if they all are identical to DnDone.

I use Fantasy Grounds and it either doesn't have these features or like you say can be turned off.

VTT's are nothing like video games.  They are just an aid to play.

For people who can't find a group to play in person or that want to play with friends that moved far away.

To be a video game it would need to eschew the GM and have an AI instead.

I do agree that some features might make people lazy, or not using them make you better at stuff...

But I don't play TTRPGs to get better at math or to improve my memory, heck we have one player that knows by heart ALL the AD&D2e shit, I mean even the Player Options for fucks sake, and he's playing with us on a VTT.

I'm not getting younger and yet just by playing with him my rules mastery is improving, I guess there's some way to have the VTT give you the rules but our DM doesn't use that feature, so when any doubt arises we read the books or this guy just of the top of his head tells us the exact rule.

Which sometimes it's just out of curiosity since the DM has his houserules in place.

I'm curious now: let's say you HAD to play a game online (no one near you or whatever). Is there anyone who would argue that in fact just playing on a video chat, without a VTT, might be a better experience than playing with a VTT?

Because I suspect that the VTT would have, for example, very little applicability to the type of campaigns I run. I never use miniatures or floorplans, it's all theater of the mind. The VTT might just be a big distraction/annoyance.

Quote from: RPGPundit on April 12, 2023, 07:48:38 AM
I'm curious now: let's say you HAD to play a game online (no one near you or whatever). Is there anyone who would argue that in fact just playing on a video chat, without a VTT, might be a better experience than playing with a VTT?

Because I suspect that the VTT would have, for example, very little applicability to the type of campaigns I run. I never use miniatures or floorplans, it's all theater of the mind. The VTT might just be a big distraction/annoyance.

For about a year, we had to play online due to crazy personal schedules messing up our gaming group.  We used Zoom.  That was the closest we could get to being there in person. The game we were playing is very amenable to minimal back and forth needed during combat, because it was designed that way.  (You don't have a lot of "Rolled a 16, did I hit?" conversations, for example.)

In fairness, though, I find that video cuts my effective "meeting time" in half.  I need more and longer breaks before the tiredness starts to interfere with my ability to do whatever the meeting is about, because you have to pay a lot more conscious attention to interactions.  Working mostly remote in a day job has driven that home.  Gaming for me is a break from all that.  I don't even like using "digital assistants" when otherwise playing at the table.  Prep for game, oh yeah, that's great.  Got a great setup, with dual, fairly large monitors, good machine, fast connections. 

I think I've downloaded every free version of every VTT in existence to evaluate at one time or another, and read extensively on the other ones.  Been tempted a few times by the features. I get why some people would, but for me it is a huge, net drawback, to the point where I'd almost rather not play at all.  At the very least, online is a different beast in my mind, to the point that I would only do it long term by adapting the game to be that hybrid video/RPG thing, not put it in the same bucket as the in person version.

Just like for a given table top game, there are some systems that are a better starting point than others, you don't want to get into a place where you are fighting with your tools.  Why turn D&D into GURPS or GURPS into D&D, when you can just play the thing you are trying to wrestle into a pretzel.  So if I were to go with a VTT, I'd want to play a game that took advantage of all the features of the tool and was about that.  Which right now is mainly semi-scripted, prepared location play.

Speaking of which, the WotC VTT so far appears to be all flash, no substance.  Don't want to play that game, literally or figuratively.