This looks extremely depressing. When I play pnp games, I imagine social interaction, yelling, high fives, brofists, even things like rolling the dice aggressively while praying to RNGesus. This looks depressingly dystopian, and I'm just asking myself, "what is the point?" The only explanation I have is that it's cost-effective in that it saves on prep work and buying expensive minis, but it's Wokesters of the Coast, so you just know that it's all about microtransactions that stack up anyway.

Jeeze, not everybody can find groups IRL. I have one, but I also have a online group im a part of. Id say its not as great as the base experience, but people treat VTTs like somekind of massive joyless sin.

Online VTTs are perfectly fine for the purpose they serve. However, in the case of the IGN video, the players and DM are in the same room but screening the game via their laptops. It all looks so silly.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 01:06:59 AM
but people treat VTTs like somekind of massive joyless sin.

For me, VTTs place too much emphasis in the wrong place. Automated collaborative book keeping is good. Speeding up complex crunchy calculations is good. Replacing imagination with animation defeats a vital component of the pretend elf game, and heavy automation discourages improvisation.

If the players were sitting around on a couch with tablets instead of character sheet clipboards and a dice tray, and a basic grid was displayed on shared tv screen, it might resemble a different perhaps more convenient way to play a traditional game. Instead we get some bizarre hybrid play where the GM is left to rearrange virtual assets for the players to click on instead of creating worlds, bringing characters to life, narrating, and adjudicating player actions. The computer renders the world and executes the rules. Add some professionally voiced characters for the commercial module and the GM will be relegated to a mere lever editor.

Quote from: Wisithir on April 10, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Replacing imagination with animation defeats a vital component of the pretend elf game, and heavy automation discourages improvisation.

Yes, I feel this 3D VTT hits the most useless possible spot, like the U bend of the Uncanny Valley. It loses all the best things about an imagination-based RPG, without being a proper animated computer game either. The bases on the VTT minis look hideous and are a great example of this Uncanny Valley effect.

Quote from: Wisithir on April 10, 2023, 05:18:41 AM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 01:06:59 AM
but people treat VTTs like somekind of massive joyless sin.

For me, VTTs place too much emphasis in the wrong place. Automated collaborative book keeping is good. Speeding up complex crunchy calculations is good. Replacing imagination with animation defeats a vital component of the pretend elf game, and heavy automation discourages improvisation.

If the players were sitting around on a couch with tablets instead of character sheet clipboards and a dice tray, and a basic grid was displayed on shared tv screen, it might resemble a different perhaps more convenient way to play a traditional game. Instead we get some bizarre hybrid play where the GM is left to rearrange virtual assets for the players to click on instead of creating worlds, bringing characters to life, narrating, and adjudicating player actions. The computer renders the world and executes the rules. Add some professionally voiced characters for the commercial module and the GM will be relegated to a mere lever editor.

Most (if not all) of what you complain about is up to the GM:

I've 2+ years playing AD&D2e over Roll20, besides the normal use of the Character sheet we (the players) have automated some rolls for our attacks/spells, the DM has automated PoV/Fog of War and that's it.

Yes, I can click (and sometimes do) on my STs or roll the virtual dice.

But there's no animation of spells of other shit (and Roll20 does have those), because our DM doesn't use them.

Last 2 battles + mini incursion on a tunnel have been done theater of the mind mostly with the occasional doodle to help him describe stuff to us.

Quote from: mudbanks on April 10, 2023, 04:12:06 AM
Online VTTs are perfectly fine for the purpose they serve. However, in the case of the IGN video, the players and DM are in the same room but screening the game via their laptops. It all looks so silly.

It is. It's also a stupid VTT because it doesn't even appear to offer what advantages normal VTTS offer anyway (LOS for instance). Im just saying knock the specific implementation, not purely the idea.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 12:54:48 PM

Quote from: mudbanks on April 10, 2023, 04:12:06 AM
Online VTTs are perfectly fine for the purpose they serve. However, in the case of the IGN video, the players and DM are in the same room but screening the game via their laptops. It all looks so silly.

It is. It's also a stupid VTT because it doesn't even appear to offer what advantages normal VTTS offer anyway (LOS for instance). Im just saying knock the specific implementation, not purely the idea.

I mean, to be in the same room I would rather use terrain and minis, that way I can simulate LOS/Fog of War by only placing the terrain they can see. It's not only cheaper but cooler than their shitty VTT. Make a few AoE templates and you have everything they offer and more. Without microtransactions (unless you count crafting more terrain as such.)

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 01:05:48 PM
Without microtransactions (unless you count crafting more terrain as such.)

Actually, in my opinion that is the physical version of microtransactions. Buying miniatures and crafting terrain is an expense that is small but adds up over time. It even supports many markets when you include painting supplies.
All this is threatened by going virtual.

On the other hand, you could just stick to left over printer paper backsides and pencils. With a rule set you like and imagination, you are good.

Quote from: Greentongue on April 10, 2023, 01:37:20 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 10, 2023, 01:05:48 PM
Without microtransactions (unless you count crafting more terrain as such.)

Actually, in my opinion that is the physical version of microtransactions. Buying miniatures and crafting terrain is an expense that is small but adds up over time. It even supports many markets when you include painting supplies.
All this is threatened by going virtual.

On the other hand, you could just stick to left over printer paper backsides and pencils. With a rule set you like and imagination, you are good.

Unless it's a hobby in itself (for some it is) you can do with very little terrain, a few dungeon/sewer/temple/castle/cave tiles, one each Forest/jungle/desert/ice/water mat, some scatter terrain and you're set for life. For minis do like I do, find some nice and free print and play paper ones https://www.printableheroes.com/

Hell, do like I did and find some printable paper terrain or create it yourself.

https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/7367555020700287309/10150470236358322
https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/7367555020700287309/1426506401127813488
https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/7367555020700287309/3979340988061802186

Print, cut and paste, then apply a protective coating https://lemp.io/how-to-protect-your-printed-paper-with-varnish-a-comprehensive-guide/

Quote from: Wisithir on April 10, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
Automated collaborative book keeping is good. Speeding up complex crunchy calculations is good.

I agree with everything you said (GM as level designers, etc.), except the bit about bookkeeping. This is supposed to be a game, not a corporate tax filing. So I would go even further.

I went from pencil and paper, to all the fancy tools, and back to pencil and paper. Jotting a note by hand is fastest, and the act of writing helps you remember things. It's all in my notebook, multiple games, multiple campaigns, characters, etc, and no risk that some glitch is going to wipe it.

As for calculations, doing it manually again helps with memory. Letting the computer do all it gets in the way of system mastery. We have enough players who barely know the rules as it is. The more we offload to tech, pretty soon nobody will know the rules except the VTT.

Automated bookkeeping and calculations is really a hybrid between a tabletop game and computer game.

Edit: Adding my general agreement that I neglected to mention first time around.

Quote from: Wisithir on April 10, 2023, 05:18:41 AM
For me, VTTs place too much emphasis in the wrong place. Automated collaborative book keeping is good. Speeding up complex crunchy calculations is good. Replacing imagination with animation defeats a vital component of the pretend elf game, and heavy automation discourages improvisation.

That's not true.  I have run run games in person and online and while I prefer playing in person, I have a lot of fun, memorable games using a VTT with plenty of improve.

VTT's are great because there are people who live in places where there aren't gamers and it's the only way they can play.   Sure, playing in person is preferred but VTT's are better than not gaming at all.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 02:35:55 PMAutomated bookkeeping and calculations is really a hybrid between a tabletop game and computer game.

That's kind of a disingenuous way of framing it. It's like saying that TTRPGs are drama games for tax accountants.
Play however you want, but your engaging in hyperbolic "onetrueway"-ism.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 03:02:10 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 02:35:55 PMAutomated bookkeeping and calculations is really a hybrid between a tabletop game and computer game.

That's kind of a disingenuous way of framing it. It's like saying that TTRPGs are drama games for tax accountants.
Play however you want, but your engaging in hyperbolic "onetrueway"-ism.

No I'm not. I'm describing how I do it and I'm re-stating accepted facts.

Doing mental arithmetic increases your proficiency at arithmetic.

Writing things down by hand increases recall.

Do I have to cite sources for this kind of obvious stuff?

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 03:02:10 PM
That's kind of a disingenuous way of framing it. It's like saying that TTRPGs are drama games for tax accountants.
Play however you want, but your engaging in hyperbolic "onetrueway"-ism.

Second this.   This kind of hyperbole doesn't help the situation.  Of all the crap going on with the hobby, we are supposed to be the voices of reason.