Look, if you keep adding features to a VTT at some point it becomes a full-fledged multiplayer computer game and is no longer a tabletop game. Hybrid games exist today. Lots of people do roleplay while playing WoW and other multiplayer computer games. Every MPORPG has a set of players who do sub-optimal fluffy role play outside of the game engine's rules. But we don't call those tabletop games.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 04:44:27 PM
Look, if you keep adding features to a VTT at some point it becomes a full-fledged multiplayer computer game and is no longer a tabletop game. Hybrid games exist today. Lots of people do roleplay while playing WoW and other multiplayer computer games. Every MPORPG has a set of players who do sub-optimal fluffy role play outside of the game engine's rules. But we don't call those tabletop games.

They are still table top RPGS.  The automation just helps with the rules and helps keep things moving on.  The GM is still in control and is explaining what is going on and the players are still making decisions.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 10, 2023, 04:56:36 PM
They are still table top RPGS.  The automation just helps with the rules and helps keep things moving on.  The GM is still in control and is explaining what is going on and the players are still making decisions.

I think there's more to the definition of a tabletop game than a GM in control and players making decisions.

In my view, there also has to be freedom for the GM. Freedom to invent encounters out of thin air, invent monsters on the spot, alter rules, make one-off rulings, etc. Players should have freedom to take an action that has verisimilitude with the setting. Want to sit down a smoke a pipe in the middle of a battlefield? Just say it, and it happens. Automation runs counter to that freedom because it necessarily makes assumptions about what decisions the GM and player might make, and therefore stifles freedom of play.

In short, I agree with the person I originally replied to (Wisithir), except I take it a step further and question why we even need automatic calculations and digital note taking, when they discourage rules mastery and recall. It's a joy to game with people who know the rules well. That's how you keep things moving. Even better when people aren't fussing with their note taking apps or tablets.

Glitch in the Matrix. Ignore.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 05:52:03 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 10, 2023, 04:56:36 PM
They are still table top RPGS.  The automation just helps with the rules and helps keep things moving on.  The GM is still in control and is explaining what is going on and the players are still making decisions.

I think there's more to the definition of a tabletop game than a GM in control and players making decisions.

In my view, there also has to be freedom for the GM. Freedom to invent encounters out of thin air, invent monsters on the spot, alter rules, make one-off rulings, etc. Players should have freedom to take an action that has verisimilitude with the setting. Want to sit down a smoke a pipe in the middle of a battlefield? Just say it, and it happens. Automation runs counter to that freedom because it necessarily makes assumptions about what decisions the GM and player might make, and therefore stifles freedom of play.

In short, I agree with the person I originally replied to (Wisithir), except I take it a step further and question why we even need automatic calculations and digital note taking, when they discourage rules mastery and recall. It's a joy to game with people who know the rules well. That's how you keep things moving. Even better when people aren't fussing with their note taking apps or tablets.

Automating the attack/magic rolls gets in the way of the GM's freedom?

Have you ever used a VTT?

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 03:32:23 PMNo I'm not. I'm describing how I do it and I'm re-stating accepted facts.

Are you for real #facts&logic-ing me?
Your engaging in rhetoric and truthism. I can claim that in my home game you have to do 5 jumping jacks for every hit point you suffer to encourage immersion, and integrate full body workouts to improve body health as extended sitting is bad for the heart. Not doing so is encouraging unhealthy habits and causes obesity.

If you don't do this, your game encourages obesity. Just hardcore facts at you.

Anyway but with your swagger and ego this is all a pointless debate.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 10, 2023, 04:18:14 PMSecond this.   This kind of hyperbole doesn't help the situation.  Of all the crap going on with the hobby, we are supposed to be the voices of reason.

Everybody has their own opinion on what "good" even is. I see this place as a area for free speech, not necacarily because we are the #factions&reasonable

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 06:21:09 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 03:32:23 PMNo I'm not. I'm describing how I do it and I'm re-stating accepted facts.

Are you for real #facts&logic-ing me?
Your engaging in rhetoric and truthism. I can claim that in my home game you have to do 5 jumping jacks for every hit point you suffer to encourage immersion, and integrate full body workouts to improve body health as extended sitting is bad for the heart. Not doing so is encouraging unhealthy habits and causes obesity.

If you don't do this, your game encourages obesity. Just hardcore facts at you.

Anyway but with your swagger and ego this is all a pointless debate.

Well yes, tabletop games do encourage obesity. That is a fact and, despite the relatively inconsequential amount of weight gain, it would be stupid to argue against a fact.

I think the discussion ended with your use of buzzwords and hash tags. "onetruewayism" is not the debate winning logic bomb that you think it is. There are better ways and worse ways of doing anything.

Any who gives a shit if my game encourages obesity and your game makes you worse at math. Was I telling you how to play?

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 06:50:12 PM
Well yes, tabletop games do encourage obesity.

No YOUR games do. Mine don't. Just so we are factually clear. And of course the problems games cause being inconsequential....Well is very much debatable.

Anyway enjoy your facts & logic.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 06:57:33 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 06:50:12 PM
Well yes, tabletop games do encourage obesity.

No YOUR games do. Mine don't. Just so we are factually clear. And of course the problems games cause being inconsequential....Well is very much debatable.

Fair enough. Point conceded. Your games involve jumping jacks and thus would not have the same problem.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 04:44:27 PM
Look, if you keep adding features to a VTT at some point it becomes a full-fledged multiplayer computer game and is no longer a tabletop game. Hybrid games exist today. Lots of people do roleplay while playing WoW and other multiplayer computer games. Every MPORPG has a set of players who do sub-optimal fluffy role play outside of the game engine's rules. But we don't call those tabletop games.

Greetings!

Totally true, Rytrasmi!

I've played WoW for *years*. Lots of people gaming in WoW even like to believe that they are "roleplaying." True RPG gamers though, that have actually played D&D, know well the huge difference. At best, you could classify WoW as a CRPG, or of course MMORPG, but it definitely is not a TTRPG.

Computer games are computer games. Or video games. That is entirely different in huge ways from being a TTRPG, despite sharing many similarities and common vocabulary.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I've been using Fantasy Grounds and Foundry for years now, and while they can absolutely do things like roll for attack/damage/save/etc, I as GM can override them whenever I see fit.  I tend to not fudge things, so I'd say a good 95% of the time I'm content to let the automated systems do their thing, but in some edge cases where the rules as written aren't a good fit for what's going on, I step in.  It doesn't hamper my ability to GM at all or take any amount of control away from me, nor does it lighten the load for coming up with content for my games.  What it does do is lighten the load for bookkeeping, as I can just drag and drop monster stats/spells/weapons/whatever from the compendium onto a sheet to get NPCs built without flipping through a bunch of books.

In some cases you can buy pre-baked adventures for VTTs that actually have encounters and maps and everything already laid out, if you're ultra-lazy that is an option, though it's not fundamentally different from running one of them in person.

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 10, 2023, 05:52:03 PM

I think there's more to the definition of a tabletop game than a GM in control and players making decisions.

In my view, there also has to be freedom for the GM. Freedom to invent encounters out of thin air, invent monsters on the spot, alter rules, make one-off rulings, etc. Players should have freedom to take an action that has verisimilitude with the setting. Want to sit down a smoke a pipe in the middle of a battlefield? Just say it, and it happens. Automation runs counter to that freedom because it necessarily makes assumptions about what decisions the GM and player might make, and therefore stifles freedom of play.

In short, I agree with the person I originally replied to (Wisithir), except I take it a step further and question why we even need automatic calculations and digital note taking, when they discourage rules mastery and recall. It's a joy to game with people who know the rules well. That's how you keep things moving. Even better when people aren't fussing with their note taking apps or tablets.

All of which can be done with a VTT.   A VTT is just a gathering place with tools.  it doesn't prevent all the things that make an in person rpg fun.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 06:21:09 PM
Everybody has their own opinion on what "good" even is. I see this place as a area for free speech, not necessarily because we are the #factions&reasonable

Yes, but when someone says something about VTT's such as they prevent things that they DO NOT prevent because I have used them for a long time, I am going to call them out.

I clearly think that rytrasmi has never used a VTT and is speaking from a place where they don't have actual knowledge.  I do.

Just look at their comment about Obesity which you even objected to.

When I talk about something I want there to be facts, not just hyperbole and made up facts because they have an axe to grind.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 08:43:49 AM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 10, 2023, 06:21:09 PM
Everybody has their own opinion on what "good" even is. I see this place as a area for free speech, not necessarily because we are the #factions&reasonable

Yes, but when someone says something about VTT's such as they prevent things that they DO NOT prevent because I have used them for a long time, I am going to call them out.

I clearly think that rytrasmi has never used a VTT and is speaking from a place where they don't have actual knowledge.  I do.

Just look at their comment about Obesity which you even objected to.

When I talk about something I want there to be facts, not just hyperbole and made up facts because they have an axe to grind.

I've used VTTs, notably Roll20, Foundry, Owlbear, and Shmeppy. I continue to use only Owlbear and Shmeppy because they mostly stay out of the way.

Why would I disparage a tool that brings together gamers? Besides the obvious benefit of allowing people to game at a distance, VTTs actually make it possible to assemble a group to play lesser-known or obscure games, which I have done and continue to do.

To be perfectly clear, the aspects of VTTs that I'm critical of are automatic calculations, coded rules sets, flashy graphics, and things like that. Obviously many people like those for sake of convenience and to keep things moving, like you said above. I consider those tools the start down a slippery slope towards video gaming. In my opinion, they directly oppose a core aspect of tabletop games, which is knowledge and discussion of the rules. As automated features keep getting added, and the video that started this thread demonstrates that WotC is working towards this, then rules knowledge and discussion will more and more be delegated to the computer. I'm not saying that haggling about rules is fun. Rather, if everyone knows the rules, then games run very smoothly and whether or not a rule applies in a certain situation is always open to discussion. In my experience VTTs often get in the way of that.

Obviously, automatic addition of a modifier to a roll-to-hit is no big deal. So lets make that easier and calculate damage. Oh, heck, there's a save and a crit. Let's have the computer look those up, too. If that continues to its logical conclusion, then a player will just push a button and an enemy will die. Is this some strawman I constructed to win an argument? I suppose it's possible, but that's not my intent. Most players and even some GMs, especially casual ones, are very lazy. Many have barely any understanding of the rules. This kind of player will flock to feature rich VTTs as a form of passive entertainment. How does this affect me? The same as any big change to a hobby: others will come to expect this kind of thing and it will be harder to find people who play the way I prefer.

Owlbear has a design philosophy of minimal interference and simply providing what remoteness takes away from gamers: a map, tokens, and dice. They've had some feature creep with 2.0, but whatever, it's still minimal. Shmeppy goes even further and eschews fancy graphics for sake of tools that allow you to draw quickly, thereby allowing more fluid improvisation. Their philosophy is even more minimal: i.e., fancy maps and tokens distract from the theatre of mind experience.

So I am not just some random Luddite on the internet raging against tech. There are others who share the same opinions as to what makes a good game and some of them even make VTTs that embody these opinions.

I have no idea why criticism of feature rich VTTs has brought so much vitriol from people around here. You guys like your Cadillac VTTs. How does my opinion affect that? Do people feel threatened by different opinions?

My initial post was simply to point out that using your own hands and mind instead of relying on the computer is actually pretty good and something people should try. I say that as someone who's tried lots of tools, like initiative trackers, both in VTTs and as separate programs. After trying a lot of those conveniences, I have come to find pencil and paper to be superior.

Also, the comment about obesity was in jest in response to Banshee's equally non-serious comment about jumping jacks.

Quote from: GhostNinja on April 11, 2023, 08:43:49 AMYes, but when someone says something about VTT's such as they prevent things that they DO NOT prevent because I have used them for a long time, I am going to call them out.

This was more about I don't see this place or "Us" as 'the correct ones". In a place of real free speech, we can expect dissent and disagreement between ourselves.
I do think rytrasmi is being obstinate. Im just saying petty behaviour like this is to be expected sometimes when real free speech can happen.