In your most unhumble and raucous opinion, which RPG has the best combat system? And much more importantly...why?
My definition of "best combat system" is the RPG mechanics which when used in actual play at the game table produces the most exciting and fun combat for the GM and the players.
I am acutely aware that a talented GM and engaged, immersed players are far more important than mechanics BUT let's assume we already have those and now we are looking at which RPG mechanics do combat best for not only this rarified group, but for even less amazing RPG groups.
So we're strictly looking at combat from the system mechanics perspective only.
Fight!!!...and remember, anyone with a different opinion that yours must be destroyed!!!
RuneQuest 6, it builds on Steve Perrin's original RuneQuest combat rules by adding Pete Nash's 'Special Effects' with the result that combat feels realistic, quick, unpredictable and exciting.
Just the invention of the 'attack' - 'parry' dynamic from the original RQ was a revelation that other game systems seem almost completely oblivious to, even after all this time other games seem to tie themselves in knots trying to work out what to do with shields or how 'blocking' works (it's called parrying guys...) and means, or how armour works, when all of this was worked out in a playable way in 1978, and now RQ6 has added a significant twist which gives it extra sparkle.
QuoteFight!!!...and remember, anyone with a different opinion that yours must be destroyed!!!
...Must make a Willpower roll against Compel Surrender*.
* Assuming the target is sapient and able to understand the demand.
Quote from: Bilharzia;826208RuneQuest 6, it builds on Steve Perrin's original RuneQuest combat rules by adding Pete Nash's 'Special Effects' with the result that combat feels realistic, quick, unpredictable and exciting.
Just the invention of the 'attack' - 'parry' dynamic from the original RQ was a revelation that other game systems seem almost completely oblivious to, even after all this time other games seem to tie themselves in knots trying to work out what to do with shields or how 'blocking' works (it's called parrying guys...) and means, or how armour works, when all of this was worked out in a playable way in 1978, and now RQ6 has added a significant twist which gives it extra sparkle.
GURPS has it down pretty well. Shields are used for blocking, weapons & unarmed techniques for parrying.
I haven't read all of RQ 6 yet or had a chance to play it, so I can't really compare the systems side by side.
Another vote for Runequest, though I haven't played 6th in full yet. 2nd edition was the first I saw of BRP and it was a revelation after playing D&D.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;826209GURPS has it down pretty well. Shields are used for blocking, weapons & unarmed techniques for parrying.
You're right, it does get these concepts, last time I tried playing it I found it overly complex and too fussy though, coming from an RQ perspective.
Marvel Super Heroes FASERIP. I have no clue if it's the best, but dammit, it's the most fun. My friends and I have been playing it for almost 30 years and it's never gotten old or stale. Nailing a villain with a solid right hook and slamming them 10 areas... oh man- a blast! Those games always end up with us whooping and hollering and cursing and falling over laughing. Running a combat in MSH is beyond easy with that color chart.
Gods, I love that game.
Without a doubt, the best combat system in any RPG ever is the one provided by White Wolf in 'Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game'.
Why?
You make a Street Fighter. That Street Fighter can kick ass in his or her own fabulous way. At the same time, if luck is supremely against you, or you are just dumb about choosing which maneuvers to play, a gang of thugs in an alley just might take you out!
"But, I thought my guy was supposed to be a bad-ass?!?!"
Oh, are you feeling sore that your character got his ass kicked? Well... let that fire burn! Let it drive you towards martial arts revenge! In Street Fighter, rivalries burn bright and long. And why is that? Street Fighter contains absolutely no rules for dying. Did someone embarrass you? Did they take your girl!?!? 15 minutes later your health is back, and you're back on the trail, burning through the henchman of Metro City's Big Boss. Does he back the Mad Gear gang, or is he tied to Shadoloo? Hell, maybe even the Illuminati are involved! Why would the Illuminati kidnap your girlfriend?!?!
With the wisdom to ignore the dumbest maneuvers of the post-"Secrets of Shadoloo" supplements, you can take a variety of paths towards being the best fighter in the world. Choose the right combos. Make a grappler than can take a huge hit, but punish it with sustained massive damage. Make a striker that does likewise. Maybe you'd like to try a fast move-cancelling grappler? Perhaps a fast striker with a variety of tricky moves. A solid defense can even make you feel good, as you work out your opponents stats in your head, remember his combos and stuff him when he goes with something predictable. Hell, maybe even go with some unusual Chi based supernatural maneuvers.
The end result is an interesting deck-building kind of character fighting style creation. Once you get the basics of your style together, XP tends to give you more options rather than directly power you up, aside from upping your Health. It leads to authentically tense moments that anyone who knows the game can observe... "Do I choose Punch Defense, thinking he'll throw a Dragon Punch and I'm pretty sure I can eat it... or do I go for a quick jab... because I think he's only got 2 Health and I have 1 Willpower left!?!?! Is there anything I've overlooked? A trick up his sleeve I forgot that makes this whole debate in my head moot?!?! Oh my God! The pressure!!!"
You prove you are the best Street Fighter by handling the pressure! Outwit that chump, knock him on his ass, stroke your long Fu-Manchu and say to him "You a big fool!"
This combat system is unapologetically meant to provide an entertaining game that rewards smart play without giving a damn about realism or grit. Exalted thought it would be better, but Exalted was dumb! Feng Shui had style out the ass, but as a fighting system... SF:TSG is the Street Fighter to its analogously worse fighting game (I'll choose Battlearena Toshinden).
I'm sorry Robin D. Laws, I backed your Feng Shui 2 Kickstarter anyways, even though I know Street Fighter will remain undefeated in the realm of modern cartoonish over the top martial arts action.
Thus ends my entry on "Best RPG Combat System".
FASERIP MSH is a worthy contender. I ran it a month back and have 2 more sessions coming up in 2 weeks. Hopefully I'll get enough play in to reveal the many varied joys you describe. The fight the PCs had in my last session was interesting, in what the PCs knew and didn't and how effective that made the villains. How I could see the fight going differently if the other villain managed to win initiative that one round... all in really cool Super Hero shaded ways.
RuneQuest 6: Very solid. I've been playing in a great campaign of this for over a year now. It is gritty in a good way for the material. Definitely high up the list. Rampant limb loss, rolling percentile and a more realistic focus tend to make it not a favorite for my tastes, however. It is very good, but not... fun? Just as a personal tone/taste preference.
Quote from: RunningLaser;826213Marvel Super Heroes FASERIP. I have no clue if it's the best, but dammit, it's the most fun. My friends and I have been playing it for almost 30 years and it's never gotten old or stale. Nailing a villain with a solid right hook and slamming them 10 areas... oh man- a blast! Those games always end up with us whooping and hollering and cursing and falling over laughing. Running a combat in MSH is beyond easy with that color chart.
Gods, I love that game.
Thats my vote, followed by RQ6 for serious play and Streetfighter for just balls-to-walls combat.
Runequest is best for you-are-there simulation. 4e D&D can do a great job of action movie cinematics, albeit in sort of super-slow mode, everything is Bullet Time. I've been finding 5e D&D combat very good, it plays a lot like pre-3e, very fast, but instead of the low level 'forest of whiffs' it feels meaty and visceral, people take and inflict lots of damage.
It also is simple enough to lend to GM improvisation, eg a PC was fighting goblins in a confined space and did twice a goblin's hp in damage with one blow, I described his sword cutting through two of the wee buggers. :D
WEG d6 Star Wars combat is good, but a bit more high-powered than the OT movies, starting PCs can cut through hordes of stormtroopers. Solution is probably just better stormtrooper stats, system itself is great.
Quote from: Spinachcat;826201In your most unhumble and raucous opinion, which RPG has the best combat system? And much more importantly...why?
As you ask for an 'unhumble' opinion, I'm going to say Bounty Hunters of the Atomic Wastelands has the best combat system.
Let's be clear BHAW combat is shallow as hell tactically and does not do realism in any shape or form. But it's just very playful and very exciting.
It plays fast with very little book keeping and the player only rolls approach keeps the players full engaged throughout. It's not the sort of combat system players end up spending a good amount of time waiting for their turn.
It's brutally random. Encounters are rarely made up of homogenous groups of opponents with roughly the same abilities/levels. And initiative system is (team based, rerolled each round with random bonuses for either the party or their opponents) makes the fight itself insanely unpredictable. There not many games I've seen where the tide of the battle can swing back and forth a few times in the course of a single fight.
In the scheme of things BHAW combat feels more like a beer and pretzel boardgame than a serious minded, simulation orientated wargame. It delivers cheap thrills, but cheap or not, they are still big thrills.
Beyond that I will agree with other posters who mentioned Marvel Super Heroes. My experience with MSH is just from the one campaign I ran with it but it was glorious. We used the initiative system by the book with the fog of war effect with declaration made before initiative is rolled and that led to interesting results.
Quote from: Bilharzia;826208RuneQuest 6, it builds on Steve Perrin's original RuneQuest combat rules by adding Pete Nash's 'Special Effects' with the result that combat feels realistic, quick, unpredictable and exciting.
I guess I don't get to claim I was ninja'd, seeing as I'm posting a good 9 hours later, but, yeah. RQ6 gets my vote. 90% of the goodness of RoleMaster, with 100% fewer table lookups. (Well, OK, you might need to do a few table lookups when you're getting to know the system, but they're internalized relatively quickly and then you never need them again. There's no way in hell that you'll ever memorize even a significant fraction of RoleMaster's tables.)
Obviously the answer is Palladium.
Quote from: NeonAce;826216Without a doubt, the best combat system in any RPG ever is the one provided by White Wolf in 'Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game'.
Why?
You make a Street Fighter. That Street Fighter can kick ass in his or her own fabulous way. At the same time, if luck is supremely against you, or you are just dumb about choosing which maneuvers to play, a gang of thugs in an alley just might take you out!
"But, I thought my guy was supposed to be a bad-ass?!?!"
Oh, are you feeling sore that your character got his ass kicked? Well... let that fire burn! Let it drive you towards martial arts revenge! In Street Fighter, rivalries burn bright and long. And why is that? Street Fighter contains absolutely no rules for dying. Did someone embarrass you? Did they take your girl!?!? 15 minutes later your health is back, and you're back on the trail, burning through the henchman of Metro City's Big Boss. Does he back the Mad Gear gang, or is he tied to Shadoloo? Hell, maybe even the Illuminati are involved! Why would the Illuminati kidnap your girlfriend?!?!
With the wisdom to ignore the dumbest maneuvers of the post-"Secrets of Shadoloo" supplements, you can take a variety of paths towards being the best fighter in the world. Choose the right combos. Make a grappler than can take a huge hit, but punish it with sustained massive damage. Make a striker that does likewise. Maybe you'd like to try a fast move-cancelling grappler? Perhaps a fast striker with a variety of tricky moves. A solid defense can even make you feel good, as you work out your opponents stats in your head, remember his combos and stuff him when he goes with something predictable. Hell, maybe even go with some unusual Chi based supernatural maneuvers.
The end result is an interesting deck-building kind of character fighting style creation. Once you get the basics of your style together, XP tends to give you more options rather than directly power you up, aside from upping your Health. It leads to authentically tense moments that anyone who knows the game can observe... "Do I choose Punch Defense, thinking he'll throw a Dragon Punch and I'm pretty sure I can eat it... or do I go for a quick jab... because I think he's only got 2 Health and I have 1 Willpower left!?!?! Is there anything I've overlooked? A trick up his sleeve I forgot that makes this whole debate in my head moot?!?! Oh my God! The pressure!!!"
You prove you are the best Street Fighter by handling the pressure! Outwit that chump, knock him on his ass, stroke your long Fu-Manchu and say to him "You a big fool!"
This combat system is unapologetically meant to provide an entertaining game that rewards smart play without giving a damn about realism or grit. Exalted thought it would be better, but Exalted was dumb! Feng Shui had style out the ass, but as a fighting system... SF:TSG is the Street Fighter to its analogously worse fighting game (I'll choose Battlearena Toshinden).
I'm sorry Robin D. Laws, I backed your Feng Shui 2 Kickstarter anyways, even though I know Street Fighter will remain undefeated in the realm of modern cartoonish over the top martial arts action.
Thus ends my entry on "Best RPG Combat System".
If this is even remotely accurate, then I must acquire this game. It sounds like it would be awesome for some Sharks vs. Jets/The Warriors/ chopsocky movie action.
Quote from: Matt;826600Obviously the answer is Palladium.
I'll see your Palladium and raise you Phoenix Command! ;)
Unfair! 1E Palladium was a cool spin on D&D with fun, fast combat.
RQ6 and Legend have one thing I feel makes combat clunky. Maneuvers. For whatever reason I've had two different tables now not grok picking them after a good roll. I also seem to really not like the d% method. I know this isn't rational, but it just doesn't feel right to me.
To date, Hackmaster 5e is one of the funnest systems I have GM'ed. That combat system is pure solid gold. I think the ranged weapon reload times are borked, but using GURPS you could easily modify them. Having everyone sitting on the edge of their seat during the whole combat is PRICELESS.
I think I can get a similar vibe with GURPS 4e, with more realistic reload times on ranged weapons. Since it supports everything from fantasy to sci-fi I feel like it does a solid job on everything vs. being specifically tweaked to a "D&D" like experience.
Well, I love the GURPS combat system it's great but it's also a player skill dependant board game with a steep learning / dying horribly curve. You know how they talk about trap character builds in D&D, All Out Attack is generally a trap combat maneuver. It's all well and good when sniping or hitting a lone, stunned opponent but otherwise that stunt will get you killed.
I also love Rolemaster's elegant if slightly rigidly random two table solution. It's not as slow as you think, there's a sharp death spiral in there but you might not live to see it.
Palladium is actually very good and there's a lot of its thinking in modern versions of D&D. You've got carefully constrained bonus accumulation, new feats at every level, natural 20 as double damage. They've also got the very nice opposed attack and parry set up. But the best version is still Mechanoid Invasion Book 3 and everything they've done with it since is disastrously cludgy.
Even so, Mercenaries, Spies, and Private Eyes gets my vote. It's a bit loosy goosy / mother may I but take Tunnels and Trolls combat totals and give people the ability to completely parry the other guy's stuff while delivering their own and suddenly it's a sharp and deadly combat system with a pretty functional set of firearm rules.
Yes, I like deadly combat that works the same for both sides. I like people to play smart and gritty not dumb and silly.
Yet another vote for RQ6 and Legend.
Why?
When I read a prose version of the Iliad, the combats were described in a blow-by-blow method, as were a number of stories about Vikings. RQ is the only system that immediately brought back those descriptions. It is how I imagined combat to be.
Quote from: Matt;826600Obviously the answer is Palladium.
If you're talking about the Palladium Role-Playing Game 1stRe, then that would be a very strong contender. I recall reading once a poster saying that TPRPG's combats were akin to Hackmaster 5th's combats, but looser and easier. That's something I could agree with- won't say it's better than HM- that's subjective.
Rounds are based on the old 1 minute per round. Initiative is d20, highest goes first. Roll over a 4 on a d20, and you hit. Roll above 4 but under the Armor Rating, and you just hit the armor, and the armor gets damaged (SDC). Roll over the AR and what you hit takes damage (Hit Points- no SDC here). Men Of Arms OCC get automatic parries (only OCC's to do so) on as many attacks as they are aware of. Roll equal to or higher than the attackers roll, and you parry. Level charts make it easy for the GM to create baddies- I'm surprised other game makers haven't "borrowed" that idea and it's a wonder why Palladium dropped it. Very simple stuff.
Mekton II with the parry, G-Factor, and Mecha Pool rules from Mekton Z.
Just last session I had an epic mecha lightsaber duel going on between the PC and an enemy ace pilot. The mechanics were completely replicating the kind of thing you'd see in an episode of Gundam.
Plus, Mekton can be as lethal as it needs to be. In many other systems, that sword duel would have required multiple hits and a slow erosion of one side's HPs or MDC. Or, if it is lethal, then it just feels like an arbitrary die roll. In Mekton, it's a direct contest of skill against skill and a sort of bidding war between Mecha Pools. And in this particular case it was over as soon as one side made a successful thrust through the mecha's powerplant heart. Descriptively it could be the same, but Mekton's method mechanically replicates the feel of the fight, the give and take, and the two opponents matched against each other.
Mekton can be as lethal as you want it to be depending on application of armor and how weapons are designed. Want a slow war of attrition? Use the standard Mekton II weapon set against mecha in the 50 ton or heavier range. Want more lethal combat? Take note of the Nova Beam Saber and Strike Missile Rack and don't armor your designs as heavily. Then design your own stuff of the type you want with the Mekton Technical System.
And since Mekton's combat system is the same for people as mecha, you can transplant all this coolness down to the personal combat level. Want to have PCs fight cyborgs with fishbowl heads which are practically invulnerable unless you hit them in the fishbowl? No problem. Those guys who hose fire from automatic weapons will eventually kill the bastards with a lucky hit, or the guys who are sharpshooters with their Desert Eagles will just bullseye the bastards. It's pretty easy to translate the same idea to zombies.
Mekton is just flat out awesome.
For detailed, dangerous, interesting and reality-based combat, I prefer GURPS with advanced & optional rules, and see little competition. Combat details that make sense are one of my main interests in games. There isn't much competition for my tastes, since few other systems really even use maps in combat, and tend to be more about enforcing a hierarchical power system (and maybe providing some rule-of-cool) than modelling anything with any interest in realism.
The only systems that try to do anything like what GURPS does in combat (e.g. Phoenix Command, Aftermath) I've found lacking and/or jammed with heaps of opaque tables, cumbersome mechanics, and lacking GURPS' other qualities (detailed characters, flexibility, and realistic killability of experienced targets - HP doesn't scale with XP).
Disadvantages include learning curve and speed of resolution, but with an expert GM who's mastered GURPS, things can be translated (including warnings to inexperienced players of experienced characters against making fatal tactical mistakes).
For players who haven't mastered the rules yet, but liking the idea, I'd start with TFT or Dark City Games solo adventures, which use the far far faar simpler combat system that led to GURPS. They provide most of the distinctions GURPS does (at least, compared to most other game systems) without the detail or learning curve.
I have yet to see a combat system that plays better than TSR era DnD. Lots of systems equal it.
Quote from: Old One Eye;826655I have yet to see a combat system that plays better than TSR era DnD. Lots of systems equal it.
You accidentally said D&D as an example of a good combat system.
Quote from: Matt;826660You accidentally said D&D as an example of a good combat system.
:rotfl:
Quote from: Gabriel2;826644Mekton II with the parry, G-Factor, and Mecha Pool rules from Mekton Z.
Just last session I had an epic mecha lightsaber duel going on between the PC and an enemy ace pilot. The mechanics were completely replicating the kind of thing you'd see in an episode of Gundam.
Plus, Mekton can be as lethal as it needs to be. In many other systems, that sword duel would have required multiple hits and a slow erosion of one side's HPs or MDC. Or, if it is lethal, then it just feels like an arbitrary die roll. In Mekton, it's a direct contest of skill against skill and a sort of bidding war between Mecha Pools. And in this particular case it was over as soon as one side made a successful thrust through the mecha's powerplant heart. Descriptively it could be the same, but Mekton's method mechanically replicates the feel of the fight, the give and take, and the two opponents matched against each other.
Mekton can be as lethal as you want it to be depending on application of armor and how weapons are designed. Want a slow war of attrition? Use the standard Mekton II weapon set against mecha in the 50 ton or heavier range. Want more lethal combat? Take note of the Nova Beam Saber and Strike Missile Rack and don't armor your designs as heavily. Then design your own stuff of the type you want with the Mekton Technical System.
And since Mekton's combat system is the same for people as mecha, you can transplant all this coolness down to the personal combat level. Want to have PCs fight cyborgs with fishbowl heads which are practically invulnerable unless you hit them in the fishbowl? No problem. Those guys who hose fire from automatic weapons will eventually kill the bastards with a lucky hit, or the guys who are sharpshooters with their Desert Eagles will just bullseye the bastards. It's pretty easy to translate the same idea to zombies.
Mekton is just flat out awesome.
Never read/played Mekton, but that sounds intriguing. Care to elaborate? Is combat a bidding system?
I normally prefer systems that allow advanced, area specific add ons.
So, I like games that allow bolt-on advanced rules for combat.
Quote from: Matt;826660You accidentally said D&D as an example of a good combat system.
Ah, but what's the requirement?
Quote from: Spinachcat;826201My definition of "best combat system" is the RPG mechanics which when used in actual play at the game table produces the most exciting and fun combat for the GM and the players.
TSR era D&D combat is fast and furious and fantastically enjoyable, all the way up to the point when you get fed up with its inadequacies. Most other systems have all these extra bits which I love, right up until the point when I have to play a big combat and it feels like I'm doing a job! You should play low level D&D combat once in a while just to remind yourself of why D&D was so phenomenally successful.
Of course the best combat system, in my unhumble opinion, is the one on my blog ;-) It's fast, is wound based, has no hit points, and armour is wound reduction.
Quote from: Gabriel2;826644Mekton II with the parry, G-Factor, and Mecha Pool rules from Mekton Z.
I've always heard good things about Mekton but it's one of those systems I've somehow skated by without ever reading or playing.
I did lobby for it when our group was choosing a new system and the GM mentioned it... but Shadowrun won that round because it was familiar.
D&D has the best combat system, because the most people know it.
Quote from: RunningLaser;826638If you're talking about the Palladium Role-Playing Game 1stRe, then that would be a very strong contender. I recall reading once a poster saying that TPRPG's combats were akin to Hackmaster 5th's combats, but looser and easier. That's something I could agree with- won't say it's better than HM- that's subjective.
Rounds are based on the old 1 minute per round. Initiative is d20, highest goes first. Roll over a 4 on a d20, and you hit. Roll above 4 but under the Armor Rating, and you just hit the armor, and the armor gets damaged (SDC). Roll over the AR and what you hit takes damage (Hit Points- no SDC here). Men Of Arms OCC get automatic parries (only OCC's to do so) on as many attacks as they are aware of. Roll equal to or higher than the attackers roll, and you parry. Level charts make it easy for the GM to create baddies- I'm surprised other game makers haven't "borrowed" that idea and it's a wonder why Palladium dropped it. Very simple stuff.
That sounds very complicated, like you'd have to be constantly rolling for everything all the time, and keeping track of multiple variables for each character.
Quote from: RPGPundit;826781D&D has the best combat system, because the most people know it.
The same reason McDonalds has the best burgers
Quote from: RPGPundit;826781D&D has the best combat system, because the most people know it.
So the top contenders for best combat system would actually not be D&D but:
Flip a coin
Tic-Tac-Toe
Checkers
Rock-Paper-Scissors
Roll the dice to move your mice. (The Milton Bradley Key-To-Fun system)
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;826784That sounds very complicated, like you'd have to be constantly rolling for everything all the time, and keeping track of multiple variables for each character.
It's a little more involved than standard D&D combat, but easier than HM5.
Quote from: RPGPundit;826781D&D has the best combat system, because the most people know it.
Then the question is, which D&D combat system!?!? There's a big variation in feel between phased, per side initiative with the dungeon turns, vs. individual initiative vs. individual initiative plus building out your fighting style with Feats ala D&D 3/3.5 vs. the whole D&D 4 thing.
I think I prefer the version with separate Missile, Melee and Magic phases, etc. and per side initiative. Never gave D&D 4 a chance because it didn't have the D&D vibe. D&D 3/3.5 has too much number summing and fiddling for too little pay-off in combat fun for me.
Quote from: RPGPundit;826781D&D has the best combat system, because the most people know it.
(http://somethingsensitive.com/Smileys/default/GPyLwMq.gif)
Moldvay Basic D&D combat is fantastic: fast, furious and fun. Right up until you've had enough of it. Then you go for some other system that is so much more realistic. Roll d%, add on your OB, take off their DB, look up your weapon table, cross-reference the roll against the armour, then roll on the critical table... Then you try another system, and another... I'd advise everyone goes back to good old fashioned D&D combat (no segments or weapon speeds) and has quick bash to remind themselves why it helped make the game so fantastically popular in the first place.
P.S.
This is my second attempt at posting in this thread, so apologies if the first attempt ever appears and I've double posted. The first vanished into the ether awaiting moderation, because in answering the call to be unhumble and shamelessly copying Soylent Green, I added a postscript extolling the virtues of my own hit-point less, wound-driven, armour-as-wound-reduction system I posted this week on my blog. This second attempt is devoid of such links so it should hopefully escape such a fate ;-)
I think some form of Runequest is likely the best mix of versimilitude and fun if you are focused on combat (I prefer the original, i.e., 2nd edition Chaosium). And The Fantasy Trip might be the best 'game within a game' treatment of combat (i.e., it is arguably less 'realistic' than runequest, but at least as fun and more multi-dimensioned as a mini-game). My preference for Runequest is also influenced by my experience in HEMA.
The attack/parry dynamic, hit locations, initiative, damage, etc. in Runequest are not exactly a perfect simulation of medieval martial arts, but they capture quite a bit of what feels important. And I like the way skill at combat starts and progresses in Runequest - it is actually surprisingly close to the experience of learning longsword fencing, where most people of moderate experience are fucking up as often as succeeding, the best fencers are most notable for their unbreakable consistency (they have gotten to 90-100 % skill), and the really amazing people just blow your doors off by preventing you from executing your own basic techniques (they are ~120 %).
Quote from: Larsdangly;826919The Fantasy Trip might be the best 'game within a game' treatment of combat (i.e., it is arguably less 'realistic' than runequest, but at least as fun and more multi-dimensioned as a mini-game).
How did I forget about The Fantasy Trip? The Fantasy Trip is a very poorly organized game! The 'game within a game' aspect is really solid though. Magic is handled brilliantly, as far as the trade-offs and bluffing go. While it is super cool as a game, it is a little wonky in some aspects when it comes to the 'simulating a reality' side of things. It is nice that each of the stats is important, and you can't easily decide one should be a "dump stat". It makes the game feel nicely balanced. On the other hand, the value of Strength for a Wizard is nice and high. That means a good Wizard, especially one who would like to cast a lot, is a pretty tough dude, as this illustration from 'Advanced Wizard' shows!
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-z9UIAWKXorM/U0yA8VpAhJI/AAAAAAAAGYA/Ovl9H_icjj8/s1600/sabertooth.jpg)
(Your average wizard in The Fantasy Trip)
looking forward to the magic version of this thread.
Quote from: LordVreeg;827124looking forward to the magic version of this thread.
I'd vote for Runequest/BRP in that one as well... none of that 'fire and forget' nonsense.
The Fantasy Trip is awesome. Dark City Games uses pretty much the same system in its products. Saying that it has realism issues only applies to players sophisticated enough to realize what they are. It's a couple of leagues more realistic than any version of D&D, since it has things like a meaningful combat map, meaningful tactics, deadly weapons, differences between the ways weapon types work that make sense, etc.
We played TFT for years before mastering the combat system and developing house rules to make it more realistic, detailed and interesting. Then Man To Man (the GURPS combat module, version 1) came out, and it did a more elegant version of doing what we had been designing to improve TFT. GURPS advanced combat is basically detailed TFT working out the glitches via more complex mechanics, which can be handled gracefully if you have years of experience with TFT/GURPS, but I think is basically why GURPS seems like overkill when coming in from a simple/abstract/different system.
I'm going to have to go with Fight! (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/79179/Fight-The-Fighting-Game-RPG), with the caveat that it's a lot of work to design a campaign.
If I could get a game that was Fight! mixed with D&D, I would love the hell out of that game.
Quote from: Larsdangly;826919... The Fantasy Trip might be the best 'game within a game' treatment of combat...
That's an interesting, telling comment. I started with the arena games from The Fantasy Trip which had the combat system and nothing else, and then added the roleplaying elements. So from my perspective looking at most other games, it's like "where is the game?" or "there is no actual combat system here."
TFT is kind of an amazing game system, and it might be easiest to appreciate if you strip it back to the wall studs (Melee and Wizard) and just ad lib all the rest of your roleplaying experience. What it gives you is a treatment of combat where all other issues that can be distractions or force compromises are removed - you just want to have fun resolving a fantasy fight. And then, decide to capitalize FUN, and don't get your tail in a knot over finely nuanced simulation of reality. The end result is very chess like, very easy to understand, fast-playing yet nuanced. If this is your experience of the combat part of a dungeony roleplaying game, it almost doesn't matter what mechanics you use to resolve other things. If TFT has a problem, its that the expansion to a roleplaying system was too wordy and poorly organized, so that diamond in the center got somewhat obscured.
Yeah, I'm the designer, but given the OP's question, I'm going to second my own game, Fight! (Divine Madness Press).
If you want tactically-rich martial arts combat with meaningful choices and plenty of bolt-ons for added complexity, it does the job and does it well.
I really should mention Thrash! (http://dsg.neko-machi.com/thrash.html)here as well, one fan's homebrew fighting game based on streetfighter/Mortal Kombat/Soul Calibur et al. fighting videogames the only analogy for which I can come up with is a WW Streetfighter Storytelling Game Heartbreaker, in that it starts with a similar premise, and then goes to bloody town with it. I love it for its utter excess. Im not sure I'd ever play it, but it's hell of a lot of fun to read, and was probably a blast to write.
If GURPS' one-second turns don't provide the time precision you need, Phoenix Command's hand-to-hand combat module has rules for determining exactly how long it takes for character A to saw through each of character B's limbs with a chainsaw, by means of highly-authoritative tables, and more tables, and more tables.
I have this game sitting on my shelf, Metal, Magic and Lore. One of those almost unknown games. It has a very detailed section on combat and armor. Fantasy game that goes for the more realistic bent (combat, travel, economy and so forth). One day I'm going to try and run a few combats- I've read that it's good for pit fighting type of games.
Anyway, here's some pics of it:
Armor(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af71/AlinCT/IMG_20150423_124318_875_zpsytwcdxt2.jpg)
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af71/AlinCT/f786323f-5441-419d-a7c3-4ba13a427b79_zpsqm0y659a.jpg)
Helmets
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af71/AlinCT/IMG_20150423_124356_739_zpsc7rqzjgj.jpg?t=1429722671)
Has the kind of orcs I love
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af71/AlinCT/IMG_20150423_124433_849_zpsd4v7egd2.jpg?t=1429722889)
detailed hit locations
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af71/AlinCT/IMG_20150423_124514_113_zpshium3ph8.jpg?t=1429722982)
and not even your steeds or birds are safe....
(http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af71/AlinCT/mmlhorse_zps5iqidmea.jpg)
That hit location figure looks just like the one from a pirate rpg that was published ~25 years ago. Like, JUST like it. I'll have to go dig up my original copy to remind myself of the name and other details.
Quote from: RunningLaser;827690I have this game sitting on my shelf, Metal, Magic and Lore. One of those almost unknown games. It has a very detailed section on combat and armor. Fantasy game that goes for the more realistic bent (combat, travel, economy and so forth).
Nice pictures, but it looks like a very complicated system!
It's
really difficult to make a system that works properly, and the more complexity you add the more difficult it becomes. I find that it usually just slows down the game and just makes it harder for you to foresee the flaws in the system there inevitably are. In the end it becomes far too much like accountancy...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_iBDQOXCHTEU/S7-zQt9R-8I/AAAAAAAAAm8/5RRv8funzMo/s1600/papers+paychecks+paycheques+pay+cheques+will+mclean+dmg+dungeons+dragons+cartoon.JPG)
Quote from: JoeNuttall;827747...
It's really difficult to make a system that works properly, and the more complexity you add the more difficult it becomes. I find that it usually just slows down the game and just makes it harder for you to foresee the flaws in the system there inevitably are. In the end it becomes far too much like accountancy...
Yes, usually. Though not always.
Matching complexity level to players' tastes and rules mastery is up to the GM and players.
Rolemaster is actually really cool when you find a way to quickly look up the tables. I also felt the need to house rule quite bit so maybe this one doesn't count. Still, we had a lot of fun with it.
For more by-the-book rules I would go with Stormbringer 5th ed. It gives you some pretty brutal battles while being much simpler than RM. it actually works well with Conan-type games.
Quote from: Matt;826600Obviously the answer is Palladium.
I imagine you were jesting here, but in fact Palladium's combat system is really great, if you get used to running it.
i enjoyed at various times unknown armies (flip-flops, cherries, double whammy...), burning wheel, wfrp 1e & 2e, brp & stormbringer, ad&d 2e (including combat and tactics), cyberpunk 2020 (fun fumbles)...
i hate with a passion pathfinder and 3.5.
currently my fav system is dungeon crawl classics (mighty deeds, luck, crit tables).
Quote from: TristramEvans;826795The same reason McDonalds has the best burgers
Only that quality isn't the issue here. There's no Cordon Bleu of RPG mechanics to compare to a McDonald's of RPG mechanics. Since taste is subjective, the system with the best network-externalities is the one with the advantage. For any given individual, D&D's combat system might not be the 'best', but as a general concept, it is the best because you are vastly more likely to find someone who will be familiar and comfortable with how D&D handles combat than how just about any other RPG does it.
Quote from: RPGPundit;828621Only that quality isn't the issue here. There's no Cordon Bleu of RPG mechanics to compare to a McDonald's of RPG mechanics. Since taste is subjective, the system with the best network-externalities is the one with the advantage. For any given individual, D&D's combat system might not be the 'best', but as a general concept, it is the best because you are vastly more likely to find someone who will be familiar and comfortable with how D&D handles combat than how just about any other RPG does it.
Taste is subjective with burgers (or music, movies, whatever) as well. A lot of people love McDonald's hamburgers. Since taste is subjective, the restaurant with the best network-externalities is the one with the advantage. For any given individual, McDonald's burgers might not be the 'best', but as a general concept, they are the best because you are vastly more likely to find someone who is familiar and comfortable with McDonald's menu, than with just about any other restaurant (especially if picky kids are involved).
Basically, unless tastes in food are more objective in some sense than tastes in RPG Combat systems, it seems that Tristam's comment is still on point, doesn't it? That seems like a difficult argument to make.
I do think that combat systems in RPGs can be of poor quality. For example, a system with a high handling time that produces nonsensical results that do not jive with the fiction and fluff the game claims it is built to emulate or support. I think you can ask "What do you want to do, combat system?" and then judge its quality based upon how well it does what it (its creator(s)) claimed. If you aren't too concerned about all of that and just need a system to handle your combat reasonably enough so you can move on to other parts of the game, or you are just hungry and need something to fill your belly, the most widely available option is "good enough".
Please stop feeding the troll in this thread.
Mine's another vote for RuneQuest 6. Combat in the system is bloody, visceral, entertaining as hell, and surprisingly swift. One of the great things about it is that instead of just giving you more bonuses to hit as you advance, I've found that there's a sort of tactical player skill element. As players get to know the Special Effects better, they actually turn into better fighters. After a few combats, the tactical side of things really opens up, and certain players who are really into it can become even more dangerous ...
But what's great is that you don't NEED to know them inside out either. The system is fun even without them, or as you're getting to grips with them.
In my most recent campaign we had swashbuckling swords & sorcery Lost World action, fighting carnivorous plants and cultists and tribesmen, giant apes, wyvern hunters, ghouls, and an epic battle against an allosaur. Each combat was different in feel, depending on the situation and tactics used by different foes. The allosaur was a particularly glorious victory, and it prompted the characters to spend a whole evening carving trophies off the body and performing bloody ceremonies to shark gods to commemorate their victory.
I really think that this wouldn't have felt like such a gripping cinematic battle in any other system ...
Quote from: RPGPundit;828586I imagine you were jesting here, but in fact Palladium's combat system is really great, if you get used to running it.
No, I am utterly serious. It's one of few game systems where it matters what the defender does and actually has give and take and tactics instead of just "I roll to see if I hit you, it doesn't matter what you do."
Has there been a published RPG that literally just used good ol' Rochambeau/rock paper scissors to govern combat?
As for other hilariously amusing combat systems, there was that jokey Samurai Movie RPG idea floated in /tg/ once.
It was basically Fighting Skill +d6. Loser dies. Fighting skill ranged from 1 to 100.
Quote from: crazyfunster;829491Has there been a published RPG that literally just used good ol' Rochambeau/rock paper scissors to govern combat?
Yeah, the WoD Mind's Eye Theatre games all used that.
Quote from: TristramEvans;829502Yeah, the WoD Mind's Eye Theatre games all used that.
...the LARP ones? So I'm imagining; instead of whacking each other with fake weapons you kinda just pose against the other dude like it was a Mortal Kombat versus screen and whip out your hand gesture of choice.
Quote from: crazyfunster;829504...the LARP ones? So I'm imagining; instead of whacking each other with fake weapons you kinda just pose against the other dude like it was a Mortal Kombat versus screen and whip out your hand gesture of choice.
Yep, pretty much.
Does anyone here recall Battlebooks? I always thought it would be interesting to build an RPG around those, with players able to customize their own battlebooks for their characters.
Probably in no way financially viable, and I find asking that much prep work out of players is generally a losing proposition, but I still think it would be awesome.
Were Battle Books the ones where you'd have "Warrior with sword" and your buddy would have "dwarf with axe" and then you'd fight it out?
Quote from: Matt;829529Were Battle Books the ones where you'd have "Warrior with sword" and your buddy would have "dwarf with axe" and then you'd fight it out?
Yeah, you'd trade books and flip pages depending on the attack used. They had some Warhammer ones, and some Superhero ones, but I dont think they ever really caught on
Quote from: TristramEvans;829536Yeah, you'd trade books and flip pages depending on the attack used. They had some Warhammer ones, and some Superhero ones, but I dont think they ever really caught on
They'd be pretty cool for an RPG if you could customize your characters. One thing missing from D&D combat, at least to me, is tactics, as it's that whole abstract "one minute of fighting represented by these rolls including feints and strikes," etc.
I would love to see an RPG such as you seem to be describing.
Quote from: crazyfunster;829491Has there been a published RPG that literally just used good ol' Rochambeau
I would be happy to see a Storygame that did super-"edgy" task resolution in the form of participants kicking each other in the groin. Mainly because it would reduce possibilities of future generations of storygamers.
I have already taken part in threads like this, and so far my answer hasn't changed.
BRP/RuneQuest (specially MRQ2 and RQ6). I have always like the way BRP combat works, and MRQ2 and RQ6 made it even better. Special Effects make every combat feel distinct.
Rolemaster. Criticals. I never get tired of them. I also like that you can (or rather must) split your combat skill into Attack and Defense.
Capitán Alatriste RPG. The system is cleary GURPS, but with a high emphasis on combat maneuvers, and without the overcomplication of GURPS.
Usagi Yojimbo (Sanguine edition). It feels very chanbara, it's very easy to strike down an enemy with just one stroke, even a tough enemy. On the other hand, that can happen to your character too.
The Riddle of Steel (and its successor Blade of the Iron Throne). Like in Rolemaster, you have to split your combat skill into attack and defense, and it has a nasty damage chart. Besides, there are combat maneuvers, that play very important role in this game.