Unfair! 1E Palladium was a cool spin on D&D with fun, fast combat.

RQ6 and Legend have one thing I feel makes combat clunky. Maneuvers. For whatever reason I've had two different tables now not grok picking them after a good roll. I also seem to really not like the d% method. I know this isn't rational, but it just doesn't feel right to me.

To date, Hackmaster 5e is one of the funnest systems I have GM'ed. That combat system is pure solid gold. I think the ranged weapon reload times are borked, but using GURPS you could easily modify them. Having everyone sitting on the edge of their seat during the whole combat is PRICELESS.

I think I can get a similar vibe with GURPS 4e, with more realistic reload times on ranged weapons. Since it supports everything from fantasy to sci-fi I feel like it does a solid job on everything vs. being specifically tweaked to a "D&D" like experience.

Well, I love the GURPS combat system it's great but it's also a player skill dependant board game with a steep learning / dying horribly curve.  You know how they talk about trap character builds in D&D, All Out Attack is generally a trap combat maneuver.  It's all well and good when sniping or hitting a lone, stunned opponent but otherwise that stunt will get you killed.

I also love Rolemaster's elegant if slightly rigidly random two table solution.  It's not as slow as you think, there's a sharp death spiral in there but you might not live to see it.

Palladium is actually very good and there's a lot of its thinking in modern versions of D&D.  You've got carefully constrained bonus accumulation, new feats at every level, natural 20 as double damage.  They've also got the very nice opposed attack and parry set up.  But the best version is still Mechanoid  Invasion Book 3 and everything they've done with it since is disastrously cludgy.

Even so, Mercenaries, Spies, and Private Eyes gets my vote.  It's a bit loosy goosy / mother may I  but take Tunnels and Trolls combat totals and give people the ability to completely parry the other guy's stuff while delivering their own and suddenly it's a sharp and deadly combat system with a pretty functional set of firearm rules.

Yes, I like deadly combat that works the same for both sides.  I like people to play smart and gritty not dumb and silly.

Yet another vote for RQ6 and Legend.

Why?

When I read a prose version of the Iliad, the combats were described in a blow-by-blow method, as were a number of stories about Vikings. RQ is the only system that immediately brought back those descriptions. It is how I imagined combat to be.

Quote from: Matt;826600Obviously the answer is Palladium.

If you're talking about the Palladium Role-Playing Game 1stRe, then that would be a very strong contender.   I recall reading once a poster saying that  TPRPG's combats were akin to Hackmaster 5th's combats, but looser and easier.  That's something I could agree with- won't say it's better than HM- that's subjective.

Rounds are based on the old 1 minute per round.  Initiative is d20, highest goes first.  Roll over a 4 on a d20, and you hit.  Roll above 4 but under the Armor Rating, and you just hit the armor, and the armor gets damaged (SDC).  Roll over the AR and what you hit takes damage (Hit Points- no SDC here).  Men Of Arms OCC get automatic parries (only OCC's to do so) on as many attacks as they are aware of.  Roll equal to or higher than the attackers roll, and you parry.  Level charts make it easy for the GM to create baddies- I'm surprised other game makers haven't "borrowed" that idea and it's a wonder why Palladium dropped it.  Very simple stuff.

Mekton II with the parry, G-Factor, and Mecha Pool rules from Mekton Z.

Just last session I had an epic mecha lightsaber duel going on between the PC and an enemy ace pilot.  The mechanics were completely replicating the kind of thing you'd see in an episode of Gundam.

Plus, Mekton can be as lethal as it needs to be.  In many other systems, that sword duel would have required multiple hits and a slow erosion of one side's HPs or MDC.  Or, if it is lethal, then it just feels like an arbitrary die roll.  In Mekton, it's a direct contest of skill against skill and a sort of bidding war between Mecha Pools.  And in this particular case it was over as soon as one side made a successful thrust through the mecha's powerplant heart.  Descriptively it could be the same, but Mekton's method mechanically replicates the feel of the fight, the give and take, and the two opponents matched against each other.

Mekton can be as lethal as you want it to be depending on application of armor and how weapons are designed.  Want a slow war of attrition?  Use the standard Mekton II weapon set against mecha in the 50 ton or heavier range.  Want more lethal combat?  Take note of the Nova Beam Saber and Strike Missile Rack and don't armor your designs as heavily.  Then design your own stuff of the type you want with the Mekton Technical System.

And since Mekton's combat system is the same for people as mecha, you can transplant all this coolness down to the personal combat level.  Want to have PCs fight cyborgs with fishbowl heads which are practically invulnerable unless you hit them in the fishbowl?  No problem.  Those guys who hose fire from automatic weapons will eventually kill the bastards with a lucky hit, or the guys who are sharpshooters with their Desert Eagles will just bullseye the bastards.  It's pretty easy to translate the same idea to zombies.

Mekton is just flat out awesome.

For detailed, dangerous, interesting and reality-based combat, I prefer GURPS with advanced & optional rules, and see little competition. Combat details that make sense are one of my main interests in games. There isn't much competition for my tastes, since few other systems really even use maps in combat, and tend to be more about enforcing a hierarchical power system (and maybe providing some rule-of-cool) than modelling anything with any interest in realism.

The only systems that try to do anything like what GURPS does in combat (e.g. Phoenix Command, Aftermath) I've found lacking and/or jammed with heaps of opaque tables, cumbersome mechanics, and lacking GURPS' other qualities (detailed characters, flexibility, and realistic killability of experienced targets - HP doesn't scale with XP).

Disadvantages include learning curve and speed of resolution, but with an expert GM who's mastered GURPS, things can be translated (including warnings to inexperienced players of experienced characters against making fatal tactical mistakes).

For players who haven't mastered the rules yet, but liking the idea, I'd start with TFT or Dark City Games solo adventures, which use the far far faar simpler combat system that led to GURPS. They provide most of the distinctions GURPS does (at least, compared to most other game systems) without the detail or learning curve.

I have yet to see a combat system that plays better than TSR era DnD.  Lots of systems equal it.

Quote from: Old One Eye;826655I have yet to see a combat system that plays better than TSR era DnD.  Lots of systems equal it.

You accidentally said D&D as an example of a good combat system.

Quote from: Matt;826660You accidentally said D&D as an example of a good combat system.

:rotfl:

Quote from: Gabriel2;826644Mekton II with the parry, G-Factor, and Mecha Pool rules from Mekton Z.

Just last session I had an epic mecha lightsaber duel going on between the PC and an enemy ace pilot.  The mechanics were completely replicating the kind of thing you'd see in an episode of Gundam.

Plus, Mekton can be as lethal as it needs to be.  In many other systems, that sword duel would have required multiple hits and a slow erosion of one side's HPs or MDC.  Or, if it is lethal, then it just feels like an arbitrary die roll.  In Mekton, it's a direct contest of skill against skill and a sort of bidding war between Mecha Pools.  And in this particular case it was over as soon as one side made a successful thrust through the mecha's powerplant heart.  Descriptively it could be the same, but Mekton's method mechanically replicates the feel of the fight, the give and take, and the two opponents matched against each other.

Mekton can be as lethal as you want it to be depending on application of armor and how weapons are designed.  Want a slow war of attrition?  Use the standard Mekton II weapon set against mecha in the 50 ton or heavier range.  Want more lethal combat?  Take note of the Nova Beam Saber and Strike Missile Rack and don't armor your designs as heavily.  Then design your own stuff of the type you want with the Mekton Technical System.

And since Mekton's combat system is the same for people as mecha, you can transplant all this coolness down to the personal combat level.  Want to have PCs fight cyborgs with fishbowl heads which are practically invulnerable unless you hit them in the fishbowl?  No problem.  Those guys who hose fire from automatic weapons will eventually kill the bastards with a lucky hit, or the guys who are sharpshooters with their Desert Eagles will just bullseye the bastards.  It's pretty easy to translate the same idea to zombies.

Mekton is just flat out awesome.

Never read/played Mekton, but that sounds intriguing. Care to elaborate? Is combat a bidding system?

I normally prefer systems that allow advanced, area specific add ons.

So, I like games that allow bolt-on advanced rules for combat.

Quote from: Matt;826660You accidentally said D&D as an example of a good combat system.

Ah, but what's the requirement?

Quote from: Spinachcat;826201My definition of "best combat system" is the RPG mechanics which when used in actual play at the game table produces the most exciting and fun combat for the GM and the players.

TSR era D&D combat is fast and furious and fantastically enjoyable, all the way up to the point when you get fed up with its inadequacies. Most other systems have all these extra bits which I love, right up until the point when I have to play a big combat and it feels like I'm doing a job! You should play low level D&D combat once in a while just to remind yourself of why D&D was so phenomenally successful.

Of course the best combat system, in my unhumble opinion, is the one on my blog ;-) It's fast, is wound based, has no hit points, and armour is wound reduction.

Quote from: Gabriel2;826644Mekton II with the parry, G-Factor, and Mecha Pool rules from Mekton Z.

I've always heard good things about Mekton but it's one of those systems I've somehow skated by without ever reading or playing.
I did lobby for it when our group was choosing a new system and the GM mentioned it... but Shadowrun won that round because it was familiar.

D&D has the best combat system, because the most people know it.