This book has been the most anticipated WotC release for me in, I don't know how long. :) probably since Lords of Madness, and I'm a lot more excited about it than I was about Lords of Madness!
For those that have been under a rock for the last 6 months or so, FC1 is going to be a book about demons/tanar'ri in the vein of Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness, by Erik Mona and James Jacobs, due out on June 6 (06/06/06, eheheheh). I just wanted to generate a little more buzz and get people talking about it. (We also now know that there will be an FC2, focusing on devils, later this year.) James and Erik have been producing the "Demonomicon" series of articles for Dragon magazine for over a year now, so it should be no surprise that they got this assignment. If you don't know a whole lot about the book, I've collected about everything I know or could guess in this post. I'm sure they've discussed it on the Paizo forums and probably in other places, but they have commented a whole lot on ENWorld, so that's where I took my references from.
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You might want to wait until you have plenty of free time before really looking at this stuff!
My pal Shade first catches a clue of what Erik and James are working on back in September (and his guess is pretty close to the truth): http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=148261
A thread I started, actually, to get ideas for the Demonomicon articles before the beans were spilt on the big project (with innocuous comments from Erik and James therein): http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=142163
The original thread to address the book now that we knew what it was, posted several months ago and more than a few pages long: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=150288 (features a fair amount of commentary from both Erik and James)
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Erik looking for info, presumably for Kostchtchie, for either FC1 or Dragon #145: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=161589 (not a major thing, but a small hint at the details they're going into)
Some threads I started to dig up as much info as I could to help out Erik and James: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=152741,
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=153838, http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=154911 - given how much I posted, who knows how much of it will be used, though Erik did post a number of replies in each and remarked that these threads were very helpful.
Another thread about FC1 with responses: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=170046
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Other tidbits from Erik (James has been less vocal about the book thus far):
Quote from: Ripzerai (aka Rip Van Wormer)In previous editions [Abyssal Lords] were more like DvR 6-10, but this time around they realized that having your high-level paladin travel to the Abyss and kill Orcus was totally awesome, and this should be expedited as much as possible.
Giving them enough power to reasonably control their own planes was not thought to be a priority.
Quote from: Erik MonaJust you wait.
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Quote from: Erik MonaUnless something changed in editing, Charon is mentioned in the forthcoming "Hordes of the Abyss." There aren't a lot of details other than that he is "the greatest of the marraenoloths" and that he knows the Styx better than anyone in the multiverse.
Quote from: ShemeskaErik, if you can tell us, did you use the 1e or 2e name for Charon/Cerlic in Hordes of the Abyss?
Quote from: Erik MonaCharon all the way. Why change something that's such an important part of mythology? It'd be like changing Anubis to "Phyllis."
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Quote from: Erik MonaI just finished co-writing a book on the Lower Planes (Hordes of the Abyss), and I referenced liberally from all editions of the game with little fear of conflicting material.
Quote from: Erik MonaA similar list [of Abyssal layers] (and a list of all known demon lords and princes) will appear in the appendices of "Fiendish Codex 1: Hordes of the Abyss."
:ponder: :bow: :heh:
I really want to be excited about this... but I'm really not. How often is it really going to be used?
I loved Lord's of Madness, I use a lot of Lovecraftian horror elements and beasts and Libris Mortis (fun all in itself) is a easy to use book as well as Heroes of Horror but they have beaten fiends into the ground over the years and unless you do a lot of planer hopping, you really don't see them much.
oddly enough, i might just be inspired to run a Planescape campaign which would feature on FC1 very heavily. i came upon the idea of a plot involving a number of demon lords and their agents scattered throughout the planes, and the PCs have to figure out which ones are involved and try to stop them. if i actually muster up the desire to run that campaign, i'll actually *use* the book. ;)
however, even without that, i've found the Demonomicon articles to be a fascinating read, and i know i'm not alone in that regard. given that the authors have promised the book to be of similar quality and tone, i think FC1 will be a fun book to read if nothing else.
Quote from: BOZhowever, even without that, i've found the Demonomicon articles to be a fascinating read, and i know i'm not alone in that regard. given that the authors have promised the book to be of similar quality and tone, i think FC1 will be a fun book to read if nothing else.
The articles are hit and miss for me, but I do agree it may be an interesting read.
Quote from: BOZoddly enough, i might just be inspired to run a Planescape campaign which would feature on FC1 very heavily. i came upon the idea of a plot involving a number of demon lords and their agents scattered throughout the planes, and the PCs have to figure out which ones are involved and try to stop them. if i actually muster up the desire to run that campaign, i'll actually *use* the book. ;)
however, even without that, i've found the Demonomicon articles to be a fascinating read, and i know i'm not alone in that regard. given that the authors have promised the book to be of similar quality and tone, i think FC1 will be a fun book to read if nothing else.
You definitely aren't alone. I love those articles. And, I may actually buy a WotC book for the first time in awhile.
yep. it's rare these days that i get excited about a WotC book. often enough, it's like... uhh, wonder if this one's going to be any good...
but this one, i feel, is different somehow. ;)
further commentary posted today:
Quote from: James JacobsThere will be some overlap between the Demonomicon articles and Fiendish Codex I, but not a lot. In Fiendish Codex I, we had the whole Abyss to cover in a single book, while in the Demonomicon articles, we have the luxury of spending a lot more time talking about a single demon lord. If the Fiendish Codex spends 1,500 words talking about a demon lord, a Demonomicon article spends 8,000 talking about the demon lord. Of course, there are a lot more demon lords detailed in Fiendish Codex than there have been in Demonomicon articles so far...
The Demonomicon articles and Fiendish Codex I complement each other quite well, as a result.
I don't do a lot of Dragon, I'm more of a Dungeon kind of guy so I'm really looking forward to this book.
from what i imagine the book is shaping up to be (at least from the vague hints i've read), i don't know that it favors one style over the other. it's going to follow WotC book format to a degree i'm sure, so it won't be exactly like the Demonimicons. undoubtedly there will be a lot of adventure hooks (possibly even a few adventure outlines), so it you're looking for straight-up adventure ideas involving demons, i suspect you should get more than a few good ideas from the book. if done right, there should be enough stuff for terrestrial or extraplanar campaigns, as well as campaigns that involve both. i don't expect it to disappoint in that regard. ;)
Quote from: BOZyep. it's rare these days that i get excited about a WotC book. often enough, it's like... uhh, wonder if this one's going to be any good...
but this one, i feel, is different somehow. ;)
Those Demonomicon articles actually made me want to use Zuggtmoy in a game. Imagine that, the demon queen of ...fungus. What's next, Juiblex?
While I like the *concept* of the D&D outsiders, I hate running the damn things. They always have so fucking many powers that I will forget half (or more) of them while I'm running them. After the game is over, I'll see that they had something they could have and would have used against the PCs. Just makes me want to use something simpler. :(
i wind up feeling that way with damn near every encounter i run, no matter who or what the PCs are fighting. :D it comes from me having poor organizational skills and an even worse memory retention ability.
a couple more bits, posted previously.
regarding the question of what sort of power level the archdemons will have:
Quote from: James JacobsI'm really proud of the answer we came up with for presenting the Demon Lords, and I'm sure it'll please DMs who want to use them as end-bosses for non-epic campaigns as well as those who run epic campaigns. I don't wanna give out any more details than that, but it's only a few months away...
and one that made me happy, but only because i'm just that picky: ;)
Quote from: James JacobsDemogorgon's back to the mandrill heads for good. WotC, as far as I know, used the cover to Dungeon 120 as reference for the art (at least, that's what I sent them for reference in my section of the art order, which included at least 2 illos of Demogorgon).
Hyenas are Yeenoghu's thing.
...wow!
Quote from: James JacobsIn my turnover, I statted up 14 different Demon Lords; I'm pretty sure all 14 made it in to the final book. Beyond these 14, the number of Demon Lords mentioned by name in the book (and having at least a few sentances of info about them) is around 80.
No, I'm not gonna reveal who made the cut on the list of 14. ;)
the cover image is finally up: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/953757200
there is also now an official Q&A thread at the WotC boards: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=9073345
the book is now featured on the previews page: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060504a
and this should give you an excellent example of the amount of detail the authors have put into the book: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060504b&page=2
Are you at least getting kickbacks from WotC for this? :D
Jeez, the WotC preview has stuff about Kostchtchie and his layer of the Abyss. I went from having no interest in this book to putting it on my "buy" list.
Quote from: CyberzombieAre you at least getting kickbacks from WotC for this? :D
I think when WOTC starts promoting this seriously, they'll just point to Nutkinland for further information on their product. ;)
Quote from: Dr_AvalancheI think when WOTC starts promoting this seriously, they'll just point to Nutkinland for further information on their product. ;)
Well, then WE damn well better get the kickbacks, then. :p
heh, i hope so! :)
hey, i piqued hardisson's interest, so i have at least one convert! if i can make just one person's life better, it's all been worth it. ;)
seriously, if you had not guessed, i have a hard-on for this book. it's not WotC - i mean, i sure didn't get excited for say Complete Adventurer, or Races of the Dragon, or Magic of Incarnum, and getting a look at them didn't impress me much either. it's just this book. it's the first WotC book that i've had faith in, for, i don't know - maybe ever.
let me tell you why. ;)
i really respect Erik Mona and James Jacobs' work and style. not only have they made some kickass contributions in gaming books, but the work they've done on Dragon and Dungeon magazine has blown me away.
add to that, what they have done with the Demonomicon articles and the Adventure Paths, and how those things will likely tie in with FC1. how the hell they managed to pull all of that off, i do not know. :)
also, they both are heavy on the nostalgia factor, but not just for nostalgia's sake; they are determined to make classic material useful, if not more useful than it was before, without taking anything away from what made it what it was. not only are they going to use the demons and demon lords that current gamers are familiar with, but they're pulling shit up that was left forgotten way back in 1983 (anyone remember that list of demon lords from the MM2 that never got any play? well, you're not alone...) and in fact from basically every edition of the game.
and then there's the kicker, the move that put me over the top. when someone posted the inevitable "ooh, look what i found, this book is coming out later!" on ENWorld, these fellows came around and said, "hey, glad you like our idea - we've only just started writing it, so if you have any suggestions we're listening." holy shit! :) a chance to be helpful.
i kind of enjoy looking shit up if there's a purpose behind it, so i went and found all the useful stuff i could find until i got tired of looking. and as i was posting this, it gave others inspiration to do some digging of their own, and it also provoked discussion that the designers joined in with. they thanked us for helping, and told us that our input was useful. when have you ever seen that sort of thing before? it's generally discouraged by the companies i'm sure, but since someone caught on to it nice and early by discovering it on Amazon, the guys figured they might as well fess up and talk about it and i'm glad they did. i can't wait to get the book, both to see if anything i brought up made its way in, and just to see what they did with everything in general. the preview definitely leaves me hopeful that there is as much cool stuff in there as promised. :)
and why did i post it here? well, it's kind of disappointing that you see stuff like that on enworld, but people who don't go there are kind of left in the dark unless someone tells them. i figured i'd post it here, leave some breadcrumbs, and see if people would show up here to discuss it. breadcrumbs didn't work, tried some less subtle hints. i figured if this was going to be a gaming-focused site, it would be nice if i could draw some "guest stars" in to talk about their stuff, but no luck. the subject kind of died off, so i just added more news as it became available. i'll probably continue to do so. :)
to be fair - we are a much smaller gaming site than ENWorld, and James Jacobs and Erik Mona only have so much time to slack off and post around the net.
While I'd love it if they found there way here and decided to post, I'm not holding my breath.
Thank you for the discussion of the FC:I, though. I've been interested in it since I saw it, and as I'm one of those people who doesn't go to ENW, your continual updating on the book is nice.
thanks. :)
now that ENWorld is back, i will post updates to this thread when people post stuff there...
someone got the book a bit early, and is downright bitchy about it (along with a few other posters): http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=163534
some folks want demon lords that non-epic PCs can beat. some want demon lords that can challenge the gods themselves. some folks don't want stats for demon lords at all, but just the descriptions. it seems like that first category will be the ones who will be most happy with FC1 - although, it seems the designers built in a system to adjust the stats up to make them a challenge for any level party. so with that, i am happy.
some, perhaps all, of the demon lords from the BoVD as well as the Demonomicon articles are re-statted in the new book (and by re-statted, i mean the stats are not the same).
besides that, we do know that there are stats for the long-awaited molydeus, as well as updated stats for the chasme, rutterkin, manes, and other demons.
plus, apparently, there is a nifty-keen list of demons printed in all 3E sources, as well as a list of properly-adjusted CRs for all of them. :)
and, as usual, Erik Mona and James Jacobs are reading the thread, so they may likely respond to any questions that don't break their NDA. ;)
Edit: forgot to mention, but the OP in that thread had promised to post the ToC and a few other things when he gets home. :)
So, you US types are going to get the Abyss in about couple weeks, I expect to see it here early July... and you say that a Nine Hells book is to be expected later in the year... Does anybody know if a Hades (+Gerhenna/Tarterus maybe?) book dealing with the good ol' Daemons (now known as yugoloths), and demodands, and all that stuff is going to be done too?
I'm missing Charon, and the Disease Lords and Khin Oin and all that neutral evil goodness... of course, my ideas of the lower planes put a lot of importance on the middle planes and the role of their denizens as brokers and go-betweens, dating back much farther, before the time some moron came up with that silly blood war..., when the main idea of Evil was to get rid of the good, rather than a petty struggle to dominate the lower planes, which the top dogs would know they could never hold anyway...
a lot of us are hoping that good sales on the first two books will prompt WotC to make a third one...
i've pitched a query to Dragon magazine to do a writeup of Charon and the Diseased Lords, so we'll see. I've already written an article on a... similar group of beings which will be printed soon, so it's not impossible that they could hit me up for another one. :)
Yeah, I'm a bit miffed by that thread. It seems to me that this book:
1) Goes to great lengths to unearth canon bits
2) Goes to great lengths to address needs of different campaigns.
and you get people bitching about canon and how their needs weren't satisfied.
Gamers can truly be pricks with a sense of entitlement, y'know.
amen. it would've been nice if the first thread that someone posted for the book didn't start with the first post being a complaint. despite the fact that the OP is praising other parts of the book later in the same thread, it started off on the wrong foot and drew the other whiners out of the woodwork.
a more full review has been posted on page 6 of the enworld thread: http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2853015&postcount=220
actually, it's been out for almost a month now! ;)
despite the issues over demon lord stats, the flavor text has been a great fun read. :) definitely a worthwhile purchase, i figure.
Aye, it's not too bad after all.
Someone sprung this one on me -- just decided I'd like the book, and got it for me, for no justifiable reason.
I am glad though. I agree, it's been fun going throuygh it. Mayhaps I will even use it a bit.
Quote from: BOZactually, it's been out for almost a month now! ;)
despite the issues over demon lord stats, the flavor text has been a great fun read. :) definitely a worthwhile purchase, i figure.
I can't wait for FFCII. And III. And I wonder if they'll do them for the rest of the outsiders and their planes. Slaadi Codex: Gangs of Limbo?
FC2 is out in december, of course. there is a small but vocal minority clamoring for yugoloths to be FC3 next year; we'll see about that of course. ;) as for slaadi, celestials, etc... who knows! those would be cool as well, i'm sure.
My guess is that if there is an FC3, it will probably be "all the rest", with yugoloths, gehreleths, and any other fiends around. Even though I think the 'loth are pretty cool, they are not as iconic as devils and demons, and that's gotta show up in sales numbers.
I do wish they'd do an Encyclopaedia Modronica, though.
Don't know that... Where I used to play in the 80s (late AD&D1, early 2)(and it was a college city of about 600K inhabitants) the yugoloths (at the time known as daemons) were pretty popular... precisely because they were different from demons and devils, and their neutral evil alignment made them more suitable than either to all manners of campaign plots ... lending a hand to spreading misery, just for evil's sake, without the brutal caprices and fickleness of demons, or the control mania of devils... Mortals sow misery, the fruits will come down to us anyway...
In this happy pre blood war days, it was accepted that a nonnegligible part of the policies developed in the Abyss and the nine hells was actually engineered from Khin Oin...
FWIW, i did send a query to dragon to write up the yugo lords. will they accept it? well, they're about to print my version of the elemental princes of evil/archomentals (co-written with Shade from ENW), and they have expressed their desire to one day print our good archomental and slaad lords articles, so who knows? :D keep all that on the QT though.