The crew of Fear the Boot discuss both 4th Edition D&D (ho-hum) and GNS Theory (wank) in today's episode.  

http://feartheboot.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=252622

They have a real doctor saying GNS is total garbage.

Care to give us the gist of it please?

RPGPundit

"I never actually got through all of GNS theory because it was so condescending that I got pissed and quit reading it about half-way through."

"It's supposed to be lingo to determine if you like Narrativist, Gamist and Simulationist games... and the original essay says pretty much: they're all bad."

"The problem is not so much the idea behind, but the people and wanking about it. "Ooooh, it's all Academic.  We're thinking about games, and it's a big deal. Waaa Waaa Waaa."  "It's all about one thing:  it's masturbation."

"If you visit the forums and read this stuff, you might be outraged too because they're tellling you: "you're dumb"."

"The condescention. The waves and waves of condescention, that's weighing me down."

"Put yourself into one of these 3 game types.  And then, all of these 3 game types suck.  You're a horrible person."

"I don't hate the idea of GNS theory, it's just the attitude that comes along with it."

The difference between him (Mick Bradley) and the guy that came up with this GNS theory -- is that Mick Bradley's a gamer."

"There's a difference between interested and being pedantic"

"They have crossed that line from what should have been an idle observation, into something that they take entirely too seriously."

"I'm talking about the mob as a whole.  This is *serious stuff*, this is *serious business* playing games, and we're not going to take anything you say seriously unless you talk in *our terms*, and use *our lingo*, blah-blah, blah-blah, blah-blah."

Don't forget "I don't want gaming to be academia."

So it's just stuff that people have been typing for a long time, ine audio format?

Those guys are outsiders, though. Theyre regular joes, and theyre pretty damn sharp, even if they don't see the genius of 4E*.




:haw:





*Which is what everyone will be playing about 10 months...

Wow. You mean regular gamers outside of TheRPGSite felt insulted by GNS/TBM?

I'm stunned...

Serious question: Does anybody actually defend "GNS Theory" any more? In terms of the original essays by Ron?

I read them, I feel like I got some useful ideas out of them, but I could give a crap about "What Ron says" as some kind of philosophical war.

It's just weird. I did some searching around, and the only other site I could find (other than this one) that still talks about the old GNS essays regularly was one where the rules state "We'd much rather you just use English".

Okay, that's not counting The Forge. I did look and find Ron making some recent posts where he talks about TBM. But that place gets fewer posts in a month than this place does in a day, so I rarely click over there unless something gets linked.

Just curious. It seems like these guys are saying "These articles aren't really relevant, and they're written in a way that insults me", which is kinda the general consensus anyway?

Quote from: SweeneyIt's just weird. I did some searching around, and the only other site I could find (other than this one) that still talks about the old GNS essays regularly was one where the rules state "We'd much rather you just use English".

I gave up on Story Games and came here because I couldn't stand all the GNS jargon.  We routinely get people trying to start threads here that are full of GNS jargon.  I gave up on our own Game Design & Theory section for that reason.

Quote from: Luke"we're not going to take anything you say seriously unless you talk in *our terms*, and use *our lingo*, blah-blah, blah-blah, blah-blah."

Thanks for the feedback. I know that right after I read the essays, I started using the terminology in ways that made no sense, and rightly got smacked down for it. I'm sure I was annoying and preachy about it.

Even a little of that kind of crap can make people both weary and wary of theory, period.

Quote from: SweeneySerious question: Does anybody actually defend "GNS Theory" any more? In terms of the original essays by Ron?

Yes. One of the reasons I am here is that the biggest gaming boards in my country (which means you probably can't read anything) was flooded with GNS and any serious discussion was quickly cut with if you don't agree go elsewhere. So here I am. :running:

But we were always several years behind... :rolleyes:

Quote from: AlnagYes. One of the reasons I am here is that the biggest gaming boards in my country (which means you probably can't read anything) was flooded with GNS and any serious discussion was quickly cut with if you don't agree go elsewhere. So here I am. :running:

That is really interesting. I never even thought to consider that I was only looking at English boards.

I remember people saying similar things years ago about how "If it's not Turku school, we can't talk about it at home. So we come here" on some of the forums.

There's actually a parallel discussion of Vincent's game on a Czech RPG site, but my Czech is pretty rough  (aka only foul language) so I didn't get much out of it.

Quote from: StuartThere's actually a parallel discussion of Vincent's game on a Czech RPG site, but my Czech is pretty rough  (aka only foul language) so I didn't get much out of it.

That will be the one I left. I would translate it, but I don't visit it anymore. All the gamers worth discussion has left it with that "GNS accident" and hunt down of D&D players that followed. That also pretty much shaped my opinion on Forgies in general. I admit that...

Yeah, a year or so ago these boys had never even heard of The Forge. They were quite receptive at first.

Forge speak. God it is irritating.