So, inspired by another thread, what are some of people's favorite gay characters in games they played, or in game modules?
For me, I think my favorite was Quentin Q. Falstaff III, 008 - played by my friend Jim. This was in a James Bond 007 campaign that I ran in the early 2000s - but it was set back in the 1980s. Quentin was a huge, mustached, beef-eating, horse-riding English nobleman and secretly a spy for MI-6. With his high profile as cover, he could travel the world and engage in secret work behind the scenes. He was also thoroughly gay - an indulgence that society turned a blind eye to. In the game, it came up mostly in select NPCs that he met up with. In keeping with the grand 1980s James Bond tradition, he met up with a comely Scotsman named Phil McCracken, or later a Russian expatriate named Ivan Moorcock. It was a lot of fun, and he added a lot to the game.
That is kind of amazing! 007 is an epically awesome game.
I liked villainous Queen Ileosa and her lover Sabina Merrin in Paizo's Curse of the Crimson Throne, though the later books didn't really meet their full potential.
Best character I ever made was a gay paladin. I initially ran him as mildly naive and idealistic, but eventually the campaign turned grim and he hardened up and joined the inquisition. Also, he married a dragon which he redeemed. Good times.
Long ago.....(the late 80's) some buddies and I from a local gaming club joined an AD&D campaign run by another club member. When we arrived to generate characters we found out that all characters would be generated via an "advanced" computer program. It was kind of a one button generator, kind of like pulling a slot machine lever to see what character you would play. This guy's campaign had a reputation as quite a meat grinder so we said what the hell. This generator gave you stats, personality, literally everything.
One of my buddies ended up with a gay kleptomaniac paladin. He had a lot of fun with that character for its brief lifespan. Constantly stealing from party members then returning the items with an apology. Good times.
"Lady Bathory", a lesbian vampire aberrant and child murderess, in my Aeon Trinity game. She was a combo of Sil from Species, the space vampires from Lifeforce and the historical Lady Bathory who threw extravagant parties for the most powerful people who gained youthful regeneration at her events. She was a celebrity vitakinetic...but nobody knew she was an aberrant. She dressed all black metal as throwback statement, lived in a gothic techno castle and did EVERYTHING possible to telegraph she was a monster...while she had effectively "official' protection.
But...none of my players knew WHO the historical Lady Bathory was, and as it was pre-cell phone, nobody took the time to look her name up.
So she carried on as a NPC, gleefully dropping babies in blenders and having public all girl orgies, as the PCs dealt with blatantly violent aberrants. When campaign ended, I read them the laundry lists of hints and misdirections from a dozen sessions, and they had totally dismissed her as just a future Madonna clone.
Kalen Avenir, from Terry K Amthor's Shadow World setting. The Loremasteer/Shadow World is probably the only published setting that I have used to run over multiple campaigns crossing it over with the Spacemaster universe. I ran dozens of campaigns over a decade or more. Kalen and his lover Jad are key NPCs in a continent (Rhakhaan) epic that is in adventure and novel form. I believe ther was a thread about this on this site.
https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?27301-Terry-K-Amthor-s-Shadow-World-novel-Loremaster-Legacy-is-out-now!
For a more fantasy character, I had an Amber Diceless PC inspired by Donna Barr's comic _The Desert Peach_. The game started in WWII on Earth, and my character was a over-the-top gay, disloyal Nazi supply officer. He soon discovered his Chaos ancestry - and the reality of the multiverse - as other PCs also discovered their ancestries. He was quite high in Warfare, and also started to discover his powers - which were shapeshifting and Logrus.
He sometimes talked about finding women kind of gross, which set up for his learning shapeshifting and having his demon form appear (a standard part of shapeshifting in Amber). He referred to discovering what he called his "hideous demon form" but he never changed in front of the other PCs. Only towards the end of the game did the other players learn that his "hideous demon form" was actually a voluptuous, red-skinned, bat-winged succubus.
I care about what characters do, not what gender they're into.
You know I honestly don't recall sexual orientation ever coming up in any of my campaigns in any fashion other than the odd lewd joke.
Quote from: Arkansan;1038866You know I honestly don't recall sexual orientation ever coming up in any of my campaigns in any fashion other than the odd lewd joke.
Yeah, that's the thing.
I don't remember the sexual orientation of any PC or NPC because it never had any relevance on the games I was in. I remember the sexual orientation of a few of the Players because we were friends and met outside of the game.
A gay Skinner-turned-Hardholder in Apocalypse World named "The Desert Queen". It started as a little joke but ended up being one of the best characters I've ever played.
I can't really think of anyone who is specifically gay, but if you broaden it to LGBT+ then I would have to say Jerry Cornelius.
Can't say our characters engage in sexual activity during our games or any romantic notions now that I think about it. As a result their sexual persuasion, or that of npcs really hasn't mattered.
While actual sex rarely has a place at my table, hetero relationships are present in one form or another in pretty much all of them. Outside of Pathfinder (which I find to be a mixed bag), LGBT characters are almost non-existent in my gaming experience. Granted, how the GM presents the character has a lot to do with how we take them, regardless of the author's intent. I know of at least one example in the Hell's Rebels AP that seemed like over the top blatant pandering, but when I read the module later to prepare for a different group, I discovered that the previous GM had just been entirely unable to stop mentioning it, even when it was entirely irrelevant to what was happening at the time.
I have played a few gay characters, but even then their sexuality has mostly been a background note. And with my current IRL group, I don't really feel comfortable exploring that venue of storytelling in-game. Granted, there's a lot of things I dislike about the current group, but they haven't quite hit the tipping point of bad gaming vs no gaming.
So right now, no, I don't really have a favorite. I'd like to at some point in the future though.
Quote from: Itachi;1038886A gay Skinner-turned-Hardholder in Apocalypse World named "The Desert Queen". It started as a little joke but ended up being one of the best characters I've ever played.
Cool. What made him awesome to play, Itachi?
Quote from: Krimson;1038901I can't really think of anyone who is specifically gay, but if you broaden it to LGBT+ then I would have to say Jerry Cornelius.
Has Jerry Cornelius featured in your gaming, Krimson? Or are you just referring to the literary character?
Quote from: jhkim;1038982Has Jerry Cornelius featured in your gaming, Krimson? Or are you just referring to the literary character?
Nearly all the incarnations of the Eternal Champion have appeared in my games. :)
Quote from: Arkansan;1038866You know I honestly don't recall sexual orientation ever coming up in any of my campaigns in any fashion other than the odd lewd joke.
Quote from: jeff37923;1038869Yeah, that's the thing.
I don't remember the sexual orientation of any PC or NPC because it never had any relevance on the games I was in. I remember the sexual orientation of a few of the Players because we were friends and met outside of the game.
You never had NPCs (or PCs) that were married, or had kids? No King and Queen of X, no Duke and Duchess of Y?
That seems unlikely to me, though your own games are your own games of course.
For myself, I figure that my fantasy worlds are basically mirrors of the real one, albeit with more races and magicky stuff. The mention of husbands, wives, kids, parents, etc is not uncommon.
Those relationships aren't necessarily a core part of the game, but only having whitebread relationships is a political statement in itself.
Best guess is that LGBT is about 5% of the real-world population, so I figure I should try to emulate that.
In
Storm King's Thunder for 5e, the Storm Giant King and Queen are high-profile NPCs. Also in the mix (250 pages) is a low-profile male NPC farmer and his husband. The party's potential for interaction with either couple is about the same.
I like that kind of inclusion. It's low-key, societally proportionate, and avoids erasure without being shouty.
Quote from: Motorskills;1039075You never had NPCs (or PCs) that were married, or had kids? No King and Queen of X, no Duke and Duchess of Y?
In the context of this thread, no.
EDIT: Yes, I can see that you are clumsily playing a game of "gotcha" by twisting the intent of my statement. I'm just going to let you play with yourself on that one.
Quote from: Motorskills;1039075That seems unlikely to me, though your own games are your own games of course.
Yup. Just like your own games are your own games of course.
Quote from: Motorskills;1039075Those relationships aren't necessarily a core part of the game, but only having whitebread relationships is a political statement in itself.
Why is it a political statement in itself? Why is it political at all?
Quote from: Motorskills;1039075For myself, I figure that my fantasy worlds are basically mirrors of the real one, albeit with more races and magicky stuff. The mention of husbands, wives, kids, parents, etc is not uncommon.
Those relationships aren't necessarily a core part of the game, but only having whitebread relationships is a political statement in itself.
Best guess is that LGBT is about 5% of the real-world population, so I figure I should try to emulate that.
Ah well that's easy. According to the bulk of this research 95% of the population identifies as heterosexual.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States
So a simple 20 on a d20 indicates that any NPC is LGBTQ. Rolls only have to be made on the fly as it is relevant to what is heppening in the game.
Er..that's it.
Quote from: jeff37923;1039096In the context of this thread, no.
EDIT: Yes, I can see that you are clumsily playing a game of "gotcha" by twisting the intent of my statement. I'm just going to let you play with yourself on that one.
Yup. Just like your own games are your own games of course.
Why is it a political statement in itself? Why is it political at all?
We'll it may be an unconscious statement, but it's a statement nonetheless. If [you] create a fantasy world that is nominally a mirror of our own, and you fail to include a particular demographic, [you] are choosing to erase that demographic.
That decision has consequences in the real world, the most recent of a thousand tiny cuts, hence political.
Mike the Mage suggests a d20 roll to determine LGBT.
But some folks would get outraged that such a determination would even part of the game. The thing is that it's not the (possibly clunky) mechanics that they are upset about, it's that there should be any determination at all.
Quote from: Motorskills;1039131We'll it may be an unconscious statement, but it's a statement nonetheless. If [you] create a fantasy world that is nominally a mirror of our own, and you fail to include a particular demographic, [you] are choosing to erase that demographic.
Actually it is that very accusation (alleged erasure of the LGBQT demographic) which my "clunky" system is meant to avoid.
To paraphrase something I posted on another thread
Let's compare:
SJW: "Why have we met no LGBTQ characters so far?"
GM: "It's not important to the adventure."
SJW: "Erasure!"
with
SJW: "Why have we met no LGBTQ characters so far?"
GM: "I haven't rolled a 20 yet"
SJW: "....."
Quote from: Motorskills;1039131But some folks would get outraged that such a determination would even part of the game. The thing is that it's not the (possibly clunky) mechanics that they are upset about, it's that there should be any determination at all.
Yes, I imagine there are some folks, on both sides of this issue, that would loath the dice being in control.;)
Quote from: Motorskills;1039131We'll it may be an unconscious statement, but it's a statement nonetheless. If [you] create a fantasy world that is nominally a mirror of our own, and you fail to include a particular demographic, [you] are choosing to erase that demographic.
I've never had a game character be a quadriplegic either, does that mean that I've "erased those demographics"? There are no quadriplegics in my worldview?
Quote from: Motorskills;1039131That decision has consequences in the real world, the most recent of a thousand tiny cuts, hence political.
OK, you are going to have to unpack that one because I have no fucking clue what you mean.
Quote from: Motorskills;1039131Mike the Mage suggests a d20 roll to determine LGBT.
OK. Now, since I play mostly science fiction, tell me how to apply this to Dralasites (Star Frontiers), Androids, Robots, AI Computers, Hivers (OTU), and Jgd-Il-Jagd (OTU)? None of those have a sexual orientation that we humans can relate to. What about transhumans who can download and transfer their personalities into different bodies? If a heterosexual male places his brain into a female shell, does that make him a lesbian?
Quote from: Motorskills;1039131But some folks would get outraged that such a determination would even part of the game. The thing is that it's not the (possibly clunky) mechanics that they are upset about, it's that there should be any determination at all.
Kind of like the way that you are getting outraged that I would dare to have my own opinion and cannot remember any token GBLT characters in my games?
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1039132Actually it is that very accusation (alleged erasure of the LGBQT demographic) which my "clunky" system is meant to avoid.
To paraphrase something I posted on another thread
Let's compare:
QuoteYes, I imagine there are some folks, on both sides of this issue, that would loath the dice being in control.;)
I think the point is that a conscious GM wouldn't need to roll dice, unless he is already doing that to determine key characteristics of his NPCs. If a GM does roll dice for that, and that's perfectly fine, some extra consideration is warranted. That can be dice, or just forethought, whatever works.
QuoteSJW: "Why have we met no LGBTQ characters so far?"
GM: "It's not important to the adventure."
SJW: "Erasure!"
It is erasure if the players are occupying a mirror-world (OLDWORLD) with thousands or tens or thousands of people, many of whom are identified as being in hetero relationships, and none of whom are LGBT.
That extends - eventually - if the party meets tens or hundreds of NPCs, many of whom are in identified hetero relationships and none of them are LGBT either.
If your setting is NUWORLD, which is a mirror of our real world but you state that there are no LGBT people, you are likely to attract criticism. OLDWORLD might just be unfortunate unconscious thinking on the part of the GM, definitely takes some time and education, for all of us.
But the GM design decisions for NUWORLD appear actively hostile.
In your sci-fi setting....that's up to you, but don't forget the ultimate objective: what is it you are trying to say about the world? If hetero relationships are important, why are you not including LGBT as well?
Bear in mind that many sci-fi authors push the boundaries the other way, by having all sorts of relationships take centre-stage. I think you are pushing back on my argument by mentioning the downloady stuff in your campaign....but that sounds cool, why not make it a positive thing?
You mention quadriplegic characters. I have had disabled players at my table (two amputees, one blind). I don't think any of them played disabled characters, I don't think they would have wanted to. Not for escapism, but because that wasn't important to their game.
But if I learned that I would be helping those players enjoy the real world a little more by putting in representative NPCs...sure, I would try to accommodate that. Part of my reluctance with any of this stuff is trying to avoid making a mess. But from what I can tell, mostly people are glad you make an effort.
Quote from: Motorskills;1039147I think the point is that a conscious GM wouldn't need to roll dice,
As opposed to an unconscious GM? Apart from not being passed out on the floor, what does "conscious" mean in this context?:confused:
Quote from: Motorskills;1039147If a GM does roll dice for that, and that's perfectly fine, some extra consideration is warranted.
Extra
consideration, eh? Hmm. What would that entail?
Quote from: Motorskills;1039147It is erasure
Not if the dice roll 1-19 baby!:D
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1039152As opposed to an unconscious GM? Apart from not being passed out on the floor, what does "conscious" mean in this context?:confused:
A 'woke' GM of course!
Quote from: jhkim;1038706So, inspired by another thread, what are some of people's favorite gay characters in games they played, or in game modules?
Kara and Rachel.
Edited to add: saw them played over the course of several years.
I'd ask - could you keep this to favorite gay characters, and start another thread if you want to talk about something else, please?
Mike the Mage - what are your favorite characters who turned out gay because of the 1d20 roll in your games?
Quote from: RandyB;1039155Kara and Rachel.
Edited to add: saw them played over the course of several years.
I didn't catch the reference. Who are they, and what were they like in-game?
Quote from: jhkim;1039156Mike the Mage - what are your favorite characters who turned out gay because of the 1d20 roll in your games?
Well PCs are the creation of the player. No roll necessary. :cool:
Do you like the d20 roll to determine if NPCs are LGBTQ or does this disappoint you as well?
Quote from: jhkim;1039156I'd ask - could you keep this to favorite gay characters
Quote from: Broken Twin;1038950While actual sex rarely has a place at my table, hetero relationships are present in one form or another in pretty much all of them. Outside of Pathfinder (which I find to be a mixed bag), LGBT characters are almost non-existent in my gaming experience. Granted, how the GM presents the character has a lot to do with how we take them, regardless of the author's intent. I know of at least one example in the Hell's Rebels AP that seemed like over the top blatant pandering, but when I read the module later to prepare for a different group, I discovered that the previous GM had just been entirely unable to stop mentioning it, even when it was entirely irrelevant to what was happening at the time.
I have played a few gay characters, but even then their sexuality has mostly been a background note. And with my current IRL group, I don't really feel comfortable exploring that venue of storytelling in-game. Granted, there's a lot of things I dislike about the current group, but they haven't quite hit the tipping point of bad gaming vs no gaming.
So right now, no, I don't really have a favorite. I'd like to at some point in the future though.
I'm close to where Broken Twin is at, but I did make use of the opportunity within SKT:
Quote from: Motorskills;1039075In Storm King's Thunder for 5e, the Storm Giant King and Queen are high-profile NPCs. Also in the mix (250 pages) is a low-profile male NPC farmer and his husband. The party's potential for interaction with either couple is about the same.
I like that kind of inclusion. It's low-key, societally proportionate, and avoids erasure without being shouty.
SKT is a little weird in that there are various paths that the party can take that will bypass whole sections of the module, by design.
The party was going to bypass these particular NPCs, but - like I did many other NPCs / encounters that I liked the idea of - I transplanted these two NPCs to somewhere directly in the party's path.
Their relationship was mentioned, but it wasn't critical to anything....which was kind of the point. :)
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1039132Let's compare:
SJW: "Why have we met no LGBTQ characters so far?"
GM: "It's not important to the adventure."
SJW: "Erasure!"
with
SJW: "Why have we met no LGBTQ characters so far?"
GM: "I haven't rolled a 20 yet"
SJW: "....."
Neither situation would even happen if the GM had properly vetted his group BEFORE starting the game.
Vetting is what worries me.;)
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1039171Vetting is what worries me.;)
GM: Now as you venture forth...
Disruptive Player: *makes barely coherent demands, causing the game to stop*
GM: Suddenly, a big rock falls from the sky. The planet is completely destroyed. Game over. I'm going to start drinking now.
Next week at a new location undisclosed to disruptive player.
GM: Now as you venture forth...
Quote from: Krimson;1039174GM: Now as you venture forth...
Disruptive Player: *makes barely coherent demands, causing the game to stop*
GM: Suddenly, a big rock falls from the sky. The planet is completely destroyed. Game over. I'm going to start drinking now.
Next week at a new location undisclosed to disruptive player.
GM: Now as you venture forth...
LOL
*cleans screen*
Well, that is one approach.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1039183LOL
*cleans screen*
Well, that is one approach.
You don't have to politically vet people. Disruptive people are going to be disruptive no matter what. My oldest friend does not get invited to parties because as soon as a certain amount of alcohol is imbibed, attempted assault and property damage ensues. No matter how much I like the guy, inviting him to such a social gathering would cause chaos, and it would be my responsibility for inviting him in the first place.
Can't say I recall a gay PC in my games (at least, not that I know of -- sexual orientation isn't something that often comes up or is important in my games). I would assume that some NPCs are homosexual, but again, it's not something that usually comes up in game. I do remember some players wondering if Rufus and Burne in T1 were an item, but nobody ever asked them and they didn't offer the information.
(https://i.imgur.com/zvdrfZ8.jpg)
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1039157Well PCs are the creation of the player. No roll necessary. :cool:
Do you like the d20 roll to determine if NPCs are LGBTQ or does this disappoint you as well?
I'm fine with rolling to determine NPC sexuality - or PC sexuality. Can you give some examples of how that's worked out in play? Exploderwizard gave a good example of random-roll traits earlier in the thread.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;1038729Long ago.....(the late 80's) some buddies and I from a local gaming club joined an AD&D campaign run by another club member. When we arrived to generate characters we found out that all characters would be generated via an "advanced" computer program. It was kind of a one button generator, kind of like pulling a slot machine lever to see what character you would play. This guy's campaign had a reputation as quite a meat grinder so we said what the hell. This generator gave you stats, personality, literally everything.
One of my buddies ended up with a gay kleptomaniac paladin. He had a lot of fun with that character for its brief lifespan. Constantly stealing from party members then returning the items with an apology. Good times.
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1039190Can't say I recall a gay PC in my games (at least, not that I know of -- sexual orientation isn't something that often comes up or is important in my games). I would assume that some NPCs are homosexual, but again, it's not something that usually comes up in game. I do remember some players wondering if Rufus and Burne in T1 were an item, but nobody ever asked them and they didn't offer the information.
(https://i.imgur.com/zvdrfZ8.jpg)
It was 1980. Back then, everyone knew Rob Halford was gay and no fucks were given.
Quote from: jhkim;1038706So, inspired by another thread, what are some of people's favorite gay characters in games they played, or in game modules?
In our current VTR chron, there's Austin James -- Daeva to a fault, rising exemplar of the Clan, Blood Potency of 5 with Humanity of 3, has a thing for twinky ghouls and men's sauna aficionado.
Quote from: Broken Twin;1038950While actual sex rarely has a place at my table, hetero relationships are present in one form or another in pretty much all of them. Outside of Pathfinder (which I find to be a mixed bag), LGBT characters are almost non-existent in my gaming experience. Granted, how the GM presents the character has a lot to do with how we take them, regardless of the author's intent. I know of at least one example in the Hell's Rebels AP that seemed like over the top blatant pandering, but when I read the module later to prepare for a different group, I discovered that the previous GM had just been entirely unable to stop mentioning it, even when it was entirely irrelevant to what was happening at the time.
I have played a few gay characters, but even then their sexuality has mostly been a background note. And with my current IRL group, I don't really feel comfortable exploring that venue of storytelling in-game. Granted, there's a lot of things I dislike about the current group, but they haven't quite hit the tipping point of bad gaming vs no gaming.
So right now, no, I don't really have a favorite. I'd like to at some point in the future though.
Hopefully, you get chance to someday. It's not a major, major thing but it is fun and can really improve the quality of the game's narrative if done with any degree of taste.
To point, this doesn't mean you need to have sexing present in your game. Don't feel you need to a RP a candlelit rimming scene just to get the gay experience at your table.
Subtlety is underrated and underused so simple things like describing two men just having a quick smooch on a subway platform while waiting for their train: perfect. Total throwaway in among everything else you describe about the environment. Now, if you want to be more on-the-nose with it, you could in the same example have the couple targeted for a mugging by some fuckheads because of that smooch. This is an actual example I've dropped on my players and it's one of those things where you find out what your players are really about on the subject (because ultimately that's what great WOD games should do).
Quote from: jeff37923;1039096Why is it a political statement in itself? Why is it political at all?
What you yourself are IS politics. Haven't you heard? Don't you keep up with the times?
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1039100Er..that's it.
Bruh...
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;1039190(https://i.imgur.com/zvdrfZ8.jpg)
They are totally a thing. Like babs, srsly.
Quote from: jhkim;1039196I'm fine with rolling to determine NPC sexuality - or PC sexuality.
No, players should be allowed to choose the sexuality of their PCs. If a gay guy told me that his new 1st level fighter was gay, I certainly wouldn't ask him to roll a 20 on a d20. His character, his say. I'm surprised ate you, tbh.
Quote from: jhkim;1039196Can you give some examples of how that's worked out in play?
Not really, cos that was asuggestion I came up with today. OTOH I
have been a member of the Communist Party, if that helps.
Quote from: jhkim;1039196Exploderwizard gave a good example of random-roll traits earlier in the thread.
Gay Paladin I can see working. Kleptomaniac Paladin is a bit Fishmalk. He would be a fighter with high Charisma, slow levelling and no divine powers before he hit level two.
I'd be fine with a chart for randomly determining my character's orientation. I used to be entirely against random-anything on PCs, but after playing a few games where the PCs were entirely randomly generated, I was really pleasantly surprised by the variety of characters I was exposed to that I would have never normally seen at my table. If I'm already determining my PC's race and history randomly, why not their sexuality? It'll probably come up just about as much as their backstory does.
That being said, if I'm in a game where I'm manually creating my PC, I can decide their orientation just fine by myself, thanks.
Next game we're supposed to be playing is a Call of Cthulhu game set in 1923. Part of me really wants to play a gay black man, but in a setting like that I think it would be unreasonably distruptive to the table. Bet I could make it work though.
Quote from: Motorskills;1039147I think the point is that a conscious GM wouldn't need to roll dice, unless he is already doing that to determine key characteristics of his NPCs. If a GM does roll dice for that, and that's perfectly fine, some extra consideration is warranted. That can be dice, or just forethought, whatever works.
What if sexual orientation didn't matter for that NPC and their role in the adventure? Is it still important to check and make sure? Or does that mean that the GM isn't "woke"?
Quote from: Motorskills;1039147It is erasure if the players are occupying a mirror-world (OLDWORLD) with thousands or tens or thousands of people, many of whom are identified as being in hetero relationships, and none of whom are LGBT.
That extends - eventually - if the party meets tens or hundreds of NPCs, many of whom are in identified hetero relationships and none of them are LGBT either.
If your setting is NUWORLD, which is a mirror of our real world but you state that there are no LGBT people, you are likely to attract criticism. OLDWORLD might just be unfortunate unconscious thinking on the part of the GM, definitely takes some time and education, for all of us.
But the GM design decisions for NUWORLD appear actively hostile.
So by keeping things that are extraneous to the actual play of the game, out of the game, is considered by you to be actively hostile? Does this mean that you believe that tabletop RPGs can cause injury to people and thus dangerous?
Quote from: Motorskills;1039147In your sci-fi setting....that's up to you, but don't forget the ultimate objective: what is it you are trying to say about the world? If hetero relationships are important, why are you not including LGBT as well?
Because AI computers and Dralasites are not interested in what is really a function beyond their ability to experience?
Quote from: Motorskills;1039147Bear in mind that many sci-fi authors push the boundaries the other way, by having all sorts of relationships take centre-stage. I think you are pushing back on my argument by mentioning the downloady stuff in your campaign....but that sounds cool, why not make it a positive thing?
Because your argument screams of tokenism for GBLT characters in tabletop RPGs. If that is how you roll, then so be it.
Quote from: Motorskills;1039147You mention quadriplegic characters. I have had disabled players at my table (two amputees, one blind). I don't think any of them played disabled characters, I don't think they would have wanted to. Not for escapism, but because that wasn't important to their game.
So you are saying that it is OK to exclude things which are not important to a game. That is exactly what I have been saying. I'm glad we agree on that.
Quote from: Motorskills;1039147But if I learned that I would be helping those players enjoy the real world a little more by putting in representative NPCs...sure, I would try to accommodate that. Part of my reluctance with any of this stuff is trying to avoid making a mess. But from what I can tell, mostly people are glad you make an effort.
So it sounds like it is an individual decision. Why not let the individual game groups decide what to include and exclude based on the Players and GM? Or like jhkim, you do not trust the common gamer with that responsibility?
Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1039235What you yourself are IS politics. Haven't you heard? Don't you keep up with the times?
Damn. I guess that I have to leave this bubble of mine called sanity and embrace the woke.
Quote from: jhkim;1038706So, inspired by another thread, what are some of people's favorite gay characters in games they played, or in game modules?
For me, I think my favorite was Quentin Q. Falstaff III, 008 - played by my friend Jim. This was in a James Bond 007 campaign that I ran in the early 2000s - but it was set back in the 1980s. Quentin was a huge, mustached, beef-eating, horse-riding English nobleman and secretly a spy for MI-6. With his high profile as cover, he could travel the world and engage in secret work behind the scenes. He was also thoroughly gay - an indulgence that society turned a blind eye to. In the game, it came up mostly in select NPCs that he met up with. In keeping with the grand 1980s James Bond tradition, he met up with a comely Scotsman named Phil McCracken, or later a Russian expatriate named Ivan Moorcock. It was a lot of fun, and he added a lot to the game.
Does that include bi-sexual ones;)?
If yes, the Lawfully Chaotic Jacqueline from my first DCC game definitely takes the prize, if only because she was the most recent one:)!
She was a Str 6 Warrior who managed to inspire holy terror in close combat. In fact, she survived a combat with a regenerating giant (whom she drew away from the party because he was kicking their asses, and she figured they'd need time to regroup). Until then, he was one-shotting all the NPCs we wanted for henchmen:D.
Also, during one raid against goblins, said goblins killed a (0-level) NPC that Jacqueline fancied. They'd barely spoken, but Jacqueline always was into muscle-bound female warriors (and didn't know the NPC considered her a dangerous reaver who kills on a whim - her fame preceded her). To add insult to injury, they stole her body, and later showed having access to the voice and memories of the deceased.
So Jacqueline did what Baron Meliadus did in "Jewel in the Skull". Namely, she swore on all the gods and demons that she'd return, and kill them all, and free all the captured souls. (Meliadus swears an oath on the legendary Runestaff to gain power over Count Brass, gain Yisselda and destroy the Kamarg).
Unlike Meliadus, she did exactly that;).
Quote from: Broken Twin;1039250Next game we're supposed to be playing is a Call of Cthulhu game set in 1923. Part of me really wants to play a gay black man, but in a setting like that I think it would be unreasonably distruptive to the table. Bet I could make it work though.
Quote from: AsenRG;1039263Does that include bi-sexual ones;)?
If yes, the Lawfully Chaotic Jacqueline from my first DCC game definitely takes the prize, if only because she was the most recent one:)!
She was a Str 6 Warrior who managed to inspire holy terror in close combat. In fact, she survived a combat with a regenerating giant (whom she drew away from the party because he was kicking their asses, and she figured they'd need time to regroup). Until then, he was one-shotting all the NPCs we wanted for henchmen:D.
Also, during one raid against goblins, said goblins killed a (0-level) NPC that Jacqueline fancied. They'd barely spoken, but Jacqueline always was into muscle-bound female warriors (and didn't know the NPC considered her a dangerous reaver who kills on a whim - her fame preceded her). To add insult to injury, they stole her body, and later showed having access to the voice and memories of the deceased.
So Jacqueline did what Baron Meliadus did in "Jewel in the Skull". Namely, she swore on all the gods and demons that she'd return, and kill them all, and free all the captured souls. (Meliadus swears an oath on the legendary Runestaff to gain power over Count Brass, gain Yisselda and destroy the Kamarg).
Unlike Meliadus, she did exactly that;).
Cool. The combination of these two reminds me - I had a very long-running character in a many-year 1930s Call of Cthulhu campaign who was bisexual. He had been a German WWI veteran, and was scarred by time in the trenches - including forbidden tragic love. In the campaign, he fell in love and got married to a woman early on, but his bisexuality was commented on from time to time - especially because his wife was a fellow investigator who frequently wore men's clothing (i.e. pants instead of dresses in the 1930s). Also, he was a painter and part of the Bohemian art scene at the time, where his bisexuality was not a big deal.
Oh, the wizard Lord Krens of Krens' Cairn an NPC in my Wilderlands is pretty cool. He's known to 'prefer the company of men', which caused a political problem as he wouldn't marry one of Lord Vilius Theber's daughters sent to study magic under him; and he was the one Ghinarian Lord to successfully defy Warlord Yusan; Krens' Cairn became the launchpad for the counter-offensive that ultimately destroyed Yusan. Him being gay doesn't have anything much to do with him being a cool character though.
Mordred Midwinter, Eldritch Knight of Valon, is a cool PC IMC who's gay; this mostly manifests in him having no interest in the various buxom noblewomen he interacts with. Also perhaps his occasional prissiness and horror of dirt - player is gay and likes a laugh. :)
Quote from: jhkim;1039156I didn't catch the reference. Who are they, and what were they like in-game?
It was a superhero Play-by-Post. I lurked. What I remember most was the apparent plausibility of the characters. They seemed... real. Almost as if they weren't characters being played PbP, but real people.
I find this whole thread just wierd.
Quote from: jeff37923;1039256What if sexual orientation didn't matter for that NPC and their role in the adventure? Is it still important to check and make sure? Or does that mean that the GM isn't "woke"?
So by keeping things that are extraneous to the actual play of the game, out of the game, is considered by you to be actively hostile? Does this mean that you believe that tabletop RPGs can cause injury to people and thus dangerous?
Because AI computers and Dralasites are not interested in what is really a function beyond their ability to experience?
Because your argument screams of tokenism for GBLT characters in tabletop RPGs. If that is how you roll, then so be it.
So you are saying that it is OK to exclude things which are not important to a game. That is exactly what I have been saying. I'm glad we agree on that.
So it sounds like it is an individual decision. Why not let the individual game groups decide what to include and exclude based on the Players and GM? Or like jhkim, you do not trust the common gamer with that responsibility?
I'll respect jhkim's request and not derail his thread further, but I will respond if you repost elsewhere.
Quote from: Motorskills;1039325I'll respect jhkim's request and not derail his thread further, but I will respond if you repost elsewhere.
What a chickenshit response. I'm not surprised though.
Quote from: Broken Twin;1039250Next game we're supposed to be playing is a Call of Cthulhu game set in 1923. Part of me really wants to play a gay black man, but in a setting like that I think it would be unreasonably distruptive to the table. Bet I could make it work though.
Jazz musician.
Also, the North and the West weren't the South.
Quote from: rgrove0172;1039317I find this whole thread just wierd.
This whole forum is weird!
Quote from: jeff37923;1039256Because your argument screams of tokenism for GBLT characters in tabletop RPGs.
Does anyone know where tokenism ends and inclusiveness begins?
AKA, how many NPCs of a specific minority do you need in an adventure to avoid tokenism?
Quote from: Spinachcat;1039347Does anyone know where tokenism ends and inclusiveness begins?
AKA, how many NPCs of a specific minority do you need in an adventure to avoid tokenism?
I'll take a stab at answering this.
If it is important to the smooth flow of play during the adventure and makes sense in the campaign setting to have a NPC be a specific minority, then it is not tokenism.
Quote from: Spinachcat;1039347AKA, how many NPCs of a specific minority do you need in an adventure to avoid tokenism?
Well for LGBTQ the official estimate is somewhere under 5% so about 1 in 20 would be accurate.
Of course, it could be suggested that extra "consideration"
may include the fact that any NPC with an unspecified sexualty has previously been assumed to be hetero-cis.
Therefore one could argue that with the number of NPCs in published materials since the hobbies inception, that would make even 1% a huge number that must be rectified.
In order to attempt some form of balance in the interests of inclusiveness, on could suggeset that people only buy published materials that have a significantly higher LGBTQ demographic than 5%. 50% or higher, perhaps.
Quote from: jeff37923;1039354I'll take a stab at answering this.
If it is important to the smooth flow of play during the adventure and makes sense in the campaign setting to have a NPC be a specific minority, then it is not tokenism.
There you go being reasonable and dispassionate about this.:rolleyes:
There was quite a lot of them.
The most recent wasn't one of mine. It was in my Dark Albion campaign, one of my players was a fighter from a knightly family named Alan Boleyn (a possible ancestor of the future Queen of England). Boleyn's player made it clear that Alan was gay, and the rest of the PCs generally had a strong suspicion, but of course the setting being what it was, he kept it mostly under wraps. He had at one point been a favorite of the Duke of Clarence, who I also played as secretly gay.
Quote from: jhkim;1039277Cool. The combination of these two reminds me - I had a very long-running character in a many-year 1930s Call of Cthulhu campaign who was bisexual. He had been a German WWI veteran, and was scarred by time in the trenches - including forbidden tragic love. In the campaign, he fell in love and got married to a woman early on, but his bisexuality was commented on from time to time - especially because his wife was a fellow investigator who frequently wore men's clothing (i.e. pants instead of dresses in the 1930s). Also, he was a painter and part of the Bohemian art scene at the time, where his bisexuality was not a big deal.
Well, it makes sense for a painter and Bohemian artist:).
Quote from: Spinachcat;1039347Jazz musician.
Funny, that wasmy first idea as well:D!
Those immoral jazz artists!
Quote from: Spinachcat;1039347Jazz musician.
Also, the North and the West weren't the South.
I'm not American, so my knowledge of (presumably) your country's history is a bit spotty. The setting is New England, which cursory research says was one of the more progressive areas of the USA at the time. My initial idea was to play a retired member of the No 2 Construction Battalion, but a jazz musician could work as well. Granted, one concept doesn't actually interfere with the other. Gonna have to see how CoC's character creation mechanics work.
Quote from: Mike the Mage;1039363There you go being reasonable and dispassionate about this.:rolleyes:
It is a failing of mine, I admit.
Quote from: Broken Twin;1039381I'm not American, so my knowledge of (presumably) your country's history is a bit spotty. The setting is New England, which cursory research says was one of the more progressive areas of the USA at the time. My initial idea was to play a retired member of the No 2 Construction Battalion, but a jazz musician could work as well. Granted, one concept doesn't actually interfere with the other. Gonna have to see how CoC's character creation mechanics work.
For that same time period and to add a bit of bohemian to the character, have them be originally from Baton Rouge, Louisiana where jazz and blues really hit their stride. Say that they worked with Ledbelly in one of the Louisiana whorehouses for a spell before entering the military.
Quote from: RPGPundit;1039370There was quite a lot of them.
The most recent wasn't one of mine. It was in my Dark Albion campaign, one of my players was a fighter from a knightly family named Alan Boleyn (a possible ancestor of the future Queen of England). Boleyn's player made it clear that Alan was gay, and the rest of the PCs generally had a strong suspicion, but of course the setting being what it was, he kept it mostly under wraps. He had at one point been a favorite of the Duke of Clarence, who I also played as secretly gay.
Cool. I'd be glad to hear more about it. That reminds me how a long time ago (20 years), I had a nobleman in my friend Joshua's campaign who was secretly gay. Here are the old campaign notes: http://darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/landofneng/
Looking back on it, this was back in the time when I would sometimes write long character descriptions - that I tend to do less of now. Still, it was interesting to read the description. Here was my old character sheet:
QuoteCassiaz ein Yabate
5'1'', Weight 180#, Age 26
Thein
STR 5 (1) : WIL 6 (2) : POW 6 (2)
AGL 3 (1) : AWR 7 (2) : INT 3 (1)
HLT 6 (2) : SAN 4 (1) : SPR 6 (2)
SKILLS:
3 Melee Weapons : 3 History : 4 Stealth
4 - Sword : 4 - Specialty : 6 - Camouflage
2 Projectile Weapons : 4 Law :
3 - Bow : 5 - Theinorran :
3 Unarmed Combat : 5 Thaumaturgy :
3 Swimming : 7 - Air :
3 Climbing : 7 - Stagnant Water :
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cassiaz was born the second son of a Farmer in the Theinhold of Yabate, a small Theinhold near Chandiope rules by Tidin. His father, Ayjolen, ruled the farmhold of Tiaz with his mother Bediz.
Ayjolen and his family were in good standing politically because of thei long-standing military service, but the land of Tiaz suffered from extensive erosion and flooding. The family home was proudly built but spartan and often uncomfortable, particularly for children. The boys were frequently sent off to be raised in some military specialty. The father made various bargains with the spirits, but they always seemed to turn on him.
Cassiaz grew up rather bookish by temperament. From when he was 5 to around age 13, his father embarked on a project to reclaim swampland for use in farming. He was set upon raising the fortunes of the farmhold, which Cassiaz picked up on. He was helpful when he could be, but he was more often a hindrance than a help. Also, there was an unspoken disappointment that he was not a great soldier.
His father by and large had little time for him, and grew increasingly stern as his efforts to improve the farming only seemed to make the situation worse. Cassiaz was typically scolded for being underfoot. He avoided this by wandering off on his own or with his cousins, making grand tours of the farmhold and getting into trouble. His mother Bediz was very supportive of him, and helped to teach him whatever subjects he wanted to know.
By age 15 he had decided to go into thaumaturgy as a profession. This was considered a bit odd for his family but respected.
---------
In personality, Cassiaz seeks after status. The most direct route to that is money, in his opinion. Those with wealth and power can maneuver their way into status, but those without cannot. Socially, the most critical thing he views is the problem of magic. Magic is rampant but uncontrolled, with evil spirits and evil mages capable of doing great harm. The religions protect their own interests but do not enforce correct behavior. He wants to reform the system, but from within it.
Privately and when at peace, he does see with the eyes of spirits, but he sees his duty as a greater spiritual burden. He binds and uses spirits, explaining at times that it is what he must do.
On a personal level, Cassiaz is queer.
Having it in the last sentence comes across as an afterthought as I read it now, and maybe it was, but it still seemed like an interesting bit of color in play.