Quote from: Itachi;1038886A gay Skinner-turned-Hardholder in Apocalypse World named "The Desert Queen". It started as a little joke but ended up being one of the best characters I've ever played.

Cool.  What made him awesome to play, Itachi?  

Quote from: Krimson;1038901I can't really think of anyone who is specifically gay, but if you broaden it to LGBT+ then I would have to say Jerry Cornelius.

Has Jerry Cornelius featured in your gaming, Krimson?  Or are you just referring to the literary character?

Quote from: jhkim;1038982Has Jerry Cornelius featured in your gaming, Krimson?  Or are you just referring to the literary character?

Nearly all the incarnations of the Eternal Champion have appeared in my games.

Quote from: Arkansan;1038866You know I honestly don't recall sexual orientation ever coming up in any of my campaigns in any fashion other than the odd lewd joke.

Quote from: jeff37923;1038869Yeah, that's the thing.

I don't remember the sexual orientation of any PC or NPC because it never had any relevance on the games I was in. I remember the sexual orientation of a few of the Players because we were friends and met outside of the game.

You never had NPCs (or PCs) that were married, or had kids? No King and Queen of X, no Duke and Duchess of Y?

That seems unlikely to me, though your own games are your own games of course.

For myself, I figure that my fantasy worlds are basically mirrors of the real one, albeit with more races and magicky stuff. The mention of husbands, wives, kids, parents, etc is not uncommon.
Those relationships aren't necessarily a core part of the game, but only having whitebread relationships is a political statement in itself.
Best guess is that LGBT is about 5% of the real-world population, so I figure I should try to emulate that.

In Storm King's Thunder for 5e, the Storm Giant King and Queen are high-profile NPCs. Also in the mix (250 pages) is a low-profile male NPC farmer and his husband. The party's potential for interaction with either couple is about the same.

I like that kind of inclusion. It's low-key, societally proportionate, and avoids erasure without being shouty.

Quote from: Motorskills;1039075You never had NPCs (or PCs) that were married, or had kids? No King and Queen of X, no Duke and Duchess of Y?

In the context of this thread, no.

EDIT: Yes, I can see that you are clumsily playing a game of "gotcha" by twisting the intent of my statement. I'm just going to let you play with yourself on that one.

Quote from: Motorskills;1039075That seems unlikely to me, though your own games are your own games of course.

Yup. Just like your own games are your own games of course.
 

Quote from: Motorskills;1039075Those relationships aren't necessarily a core part of the game, but only having whitebread relationships is a political statement in itself.

Why is it a political statement in itself? Why is it political at all?

Quote from: Motorskills;1039075For myself, I figure that my fantasy worlds are basically mirrors of the real one, albeit with more races and magicky stuff. The mention of husbands, wives, kids, parents, etc is not uncommon.
Those relationships aren't necessarily a core part of the game, but only having whitebread relationships is a political statement in itself.
Best guess is that LGBT is about 5% of the real-world population, so I figure I should try to emulate that.

Ah well that's easy. According to the bulk of this research 95% of the population identifies as heterosexual.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States

So a simple 20 on a d20 indicates that any NPC is LGBTQ. Rolls only have to be made on the fly as it is relevant to what is heppening in the game.

Er..that's it.

Quote from: jeff37923;1039096In the context of this thread, no.

EDIT: Yes, I can see that you are clumsily playing a game of "gotcha" by twisting the intent of my statement. I'm just going to let you play with yourself on that one.



Yup. Just like your own games are your own games of course.
 


Why is it a political statement in itself? Why is it political at all?

We'll it may be an unconscious statement, but it's a statement nonetheless. If [you] create a fantasy world that is nominally a mirror of our own, and you fail to include a particular demographic, [you] are choosing to erase that demographic.

That decision has consequences in the real world, the most recent of a thousand tiny cuts, hence political.

Mike the Mage suggests a d20 roll to determine LGBT.

But some folks would get outraged that such a determination would even part of the game. The thing is that it's not the (possibly clunky) mechanics that they are upset about, it's that there should be any determination at all.

Quote from: Motorskills;1039131We'll it may be an unconscious statement, but it's a statement nonetheless. If [you] create a fantasy world that is nominally a mirror of our own, and you fail to include a particular demographic, [you] are choosing to erase that demographic.

Actually it is that very accusation (alleged erasure of the LGBQT demographic)  which my "clunky" system is meant to avoid.

To paraphrase something I posted on another thread

Let's compare:

SJW: "Why have we met no LGBTQ characters so far?"
GM: "It's not important to the adventure."
SJW: "Erasure!"

with

SJW: "Why have we met no LGBTQ characters so far?"
GM: "I haven't rolled a 20 yet"
SJW: "....."

Quote from: Motorskills;1039131But some folks would get outraged that such a determination would even part of the game. The thing is that it's not the (possibly clunky) mechanics that they are upset about, it's that there should be any determination at all.

Yes, I imagine there are some folks, on both sides of this issue, that would loath the dice being in control.

Quote from: Motorskills;1039131We'll it may be an unconscious statement, but it's a statement nonetheless. If [you] create a fantasy world that is nominally a mirror of our own, and you fail to include a particular demographic, [you] are choosing to erase that demographic.

I've never had a game character be a quadriplegic either, does that mean that I've "erased those demographics"? There are no quadriplegics in my worldview?

Quote from: Motorskills;1039131That decision has consequences in the real world, the most recent of a thousand tiny cuts, hence political.

OK, you are going to have to unpack that one because I have no fucking clue what you mean.

Quote from: Motorskills;1039131Mike the Mage suggests a d20 roll to determine LGBT.

OK. Now, since I play mostly science fiction, tell me how to apply this to Dralasites (Star Frontiers), Androids, Robots, AI Computers, Hivers (OTU), and Jgd-Il-Jagd (OTU)? None of those have a sexual orientation that we humans can relate to. What about transhumans who can download and transfer their personalities into different bodies? If a heterosexual male places his brain into a female shell, does that make him a lesbian?

Quote from: Motorskills;1039131But some folks would get outraged that such a determination would even part of the game. The thing is that it's not the (possibly clunky) mechanics that they are upset about, it's that there should be any determination at all.

Kind of like the way that you are getting outraged that I would dare to have my own opinion and cannot remember any token GBLT characters in my games?

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1039132Actually it is that very accusation (alleged erasure of the LGBQT demographic)  which my "clunky" system is meant to avoid.

To paraphrase something I posted on another thread

Let's compare:

QuoteYes, I imagine there are some folks, on both sides of this issue, that would loath the dice being in control.

I think the point is that a conscious GM wouldn't need to roll dice, unless he is already doing that to determine key characteristics of his NPCs. If a GM does roll dice for that, and that's perfectly fine, some extra consideration is warranted. That can be dice, or just forethought, whatever works.

QuoteSJW: "Why have we met no LGBTQ characters so far?"
GM: "It's not important to the adventure."
SJW: "Erasure!"

It is erasure if the players are occupying a mirror-world (OLDWORLD) with thousands or tens or thousands of people, many of whom are identified as being in hetero relationships, and none of whom are LGBT.

That extends - eventually - if the party meets tens or hundreds of NPCs, many of whom are in identified hetero relationships and none of them are LGBT either.

If your setting is NUWORLD, which is a mirror of our real world but you state that there are no LGBT people, you are likely to attract criticism. OLDWORLD might just be unfortunate unconscious thinking on the part of the GM, definitely takes some time and education, for all of us.
But the GM design decisions for NUWORLD appear actively hostile.

In your sci-fi setting....that's up to you, but don't forget the ultimate objective: what is it you are trying to say about the world? If hetero relationships are important, why are you not including LGBT as well?

Bear in mind that many sci-fi authors push the boundaries the other way, by having all sorts of relationships take centre-stage. I think you are pushing back on my argument by mentioning the downloady stuff in your campaign....but that sounds cool, why not make it a positive thing?


You mention quadriplegic characters. I have had disabled players at my table (two amputees, one blind). I don't think any of them played disabled characters, I don't think they would have wanted to. Not for escapism, but because that wasn't important to their game.

But if I learned that I would be helping those players enjoy the real world a little more by putting in representative NPCs...sure, I would try to accommodate that. Part of my reluctance with any of this stuff is trying to avoid making a mess. But from what I can tell, mostly people are glad you make an effort.

Quote from: Motorskills;1039147I think the point is that a conscious GM wouldn't need to roll dice,

As opposed to an unconscious GM? Apart from not being passed out on the floor, what does "conscious" mean in this context?:confused:

Quote from: Motorskills;1039147If a GM does roll dice for that, and that's perfectly fine, some extra consideration is warranted.

Extra consideration, eh? Hmm. What would that entail?

Quote from: Motorskills;1039147It is erasure

Not if the dice roll 1-19 baby!:D

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1039152As opposed to an unconscious GM? Apart from not being passed out on the floor, what does "conscious" mean in this context?:confused:

A 'woke' GM of course!

Quote from: jhkim;1038706So, inspired by another thread, what are some of people's favorite gay characters in games they played, or in game modules?

Kara and Rachel.

Edited to add: saw them played over the course of several years.

I'd ask - could you keep this to favorite gay characters, and start another thread if you want to talk about something else, please?  

Mike the Mage - what are your favorite characters who turned out gay because of the 1d20 roll in your games?

Quote from: RandyB;1039155Kara and Rachel.

Edited to add: saw them played over the course of several years.

I didn't catch the reference. Who are they, and what were they like in-game?

Quote from: jhkim;1039156Mike the Mage - what are your favorite characters who turned out gay because of the 1d20 roll in your games?

Well PCs are the creation of the player. No roll necessary. :cool:

Do you like the d20 roll to determine if NPCs are LGBTQ or does this disappoint you as well?

Quote from: jhkim;1039156I'd ask - could you keep this to favorite gay characters

Quote from: Broken Twin;1038950While actual sex rarely has a place at my table, hetero relationships are present in one form or another in pretty much all of them. Outside of Pathfinder (which I find to be a mixed bag), LGBT characters are almost non-existent in my gaming experience. Granted, how the GM presents the character has a lot to do with how we take them, regardless of the author's intent. I know of at least one example in the Hell's Rebels AP that seemed like over the top blatant pandering, but when I read the module later to prepare for a different group, I discovered that the previous GM had just been entirely unable to stop mentioning it, even when it was entirely irrelevant to what was happening at the time.

I have played a few gay characters, but even then their sexuality has mostly been a background note. And with my current IRL group, I don't really feel comfortable exploring that venue of storytelling in-game. Granted, there's a lot of things I dislike about the current group, but they haven't quite hit the tipping point of bad gaming vs no gaming.

So right now, no, I don't really have a favorite. I'd like to at some point in the future though.

I'm close to where Broken Twin is at, but I did make use of the opportunity within SKT:

Quote from: Motorskills;1039075In Storm King's Thunder for 5e, the Storm Giant King and Queen are high-profile NPCs. Also in the mix (250 pages) is a low-profile male NPC farmer and his husband. The party's potential for interaction with either couple is about the same.

I like that kind of inclusion. It's low-key, societally proportionate, and avoids erasure without being shouty.

SKT is a little weird in that there are various paths that the party can take that will bypass whole sections of the module, by design.

The party was going to bypass these particular NPCs, but - like I did many other NPCs / encounters that I liked the idea of  - I transplanted these two NPCs to somewhere directly in the party's path.

Their relationship was mentioned, but it wasn't critical to anything....which was kind of the point.