Quote from: Ravenswing;839441Yep.

One of my ongoing riffs is that GURPS isn't the easiest game out there.  It's not for someone who doesn't want to do any legwork, it's not for a "lazy GM" type, and it isn't for a rookie GM who's never been on that side of the dice.

I am okay with all of this.

I am inclined to disagree; Gurps was one of the first games I ran, and one of the first I truly understood. Back then, the lack of a fixed setting was much more of an issue than the rules,  and sure, the characters in that game fought a lot of wild animals because the book included stats for them, and it sure wasn't some great gaming. But, I found it much more accessible than the AD&D rules of the same time, because I "got" hat the rules are supposed to represent. Intuitiveness and the idea that there is a relative clear interconnection between the rules and what they are supposed to represent is a suitble way to gain access to a system, at least for some people.  
There are some issues I have with Gurps, but these are usually the same issues I have with any point-buy system. Complexity isn't one of them.
I'm also not entirely sure if the aledged complexity of GURPS is at least partially the result of GURPS players flirting with the legend of great complexity, sometimes bordering on elitism.

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Beagle, ya I think every player just has widely different ideas both about complexity and about what they like, dislike, or are or aren't used to. And GURPS games can play very differently depending on which rules players are using or not, and how.

Also, in many games, a melee combat consists manily of repeatedly choosing whom to swing at, rolling one die vs a value, and then rolling damage if you hit, until all of one side reaches zero hitpoints, with no other real mechanics.

In my GURPS games, although I can now do all of these considerations in near-zero time, the decision inlcudes what everyone is equipped with, where everyone is standing (or lying, or kneeling, or in the same hex with A grabbing B's leg while B is strangling A...), what terrain, furniture and junk is in each hex, which way everyone is facing, which weapons are ready at the moment, how injured everyone is, what my character's various skills are, what situations are going on from before (such as stun, shock, feinting, evaluation, aiming, etc), and then which combat maneuver (including Wait...), technique, target hit location to use with which weapons, where to move, and then the resolution of that action involving various modifiers, the skills and attributes and equipment of at least two characters, weapon and armor type, the target's choice of what to do about an attack (what defense to use, whether to retreat or dive for cover, which direction to retreat, what facing to turn to... oh, and whether other figures use Wait or Opportunity actions or not, and where to move and face with those) and the various effects of landing a blow (stun, shock, knockdown, knockback, damaged equipment...) and so on, and any or all of those things may be critical details which determine whether someone dies or loses an arm that turn, or not. I'm not even mentioning my house rules, or using anything from GURPS Martial Arts or Tactical Shooting...

It's entirely manageable (and delicious) for me, but compared to "whom do I attack, did I hit, if so roll damage which does nothing unless 0 HP", it is much more complex.

Quote from: Ravenswing;839441Yep.

One of my ongoing riffs is that GURPS isn't the easiest game out there.  It's not for someone who doesn't want to do any legwork, it's not for a "lazy GM" type, and it isn't for a rookie GM who's never been on that side of the dice.

The issues with GURPS are in my opinion solely of presentation. It is publisher's, SJ Games, choices that GURPS is presented in a way that requires a prospective referee to build his own game out of the "toolkit".

There is nothing intrinsic about GURPS that demands this. Even with the limited resources SJ Games is willing to put into GURPS there is no reason why the line can't have both. The all-in-one toolkit and something more straightforward to rope in a larger audience.

But because of the prejudices of the line editor, Sean Punch, and the company owner, Steve Jackson, that is not going to happen. Instead they are going to work on GURPS Discworld. Which I am sure will be a excellent product with a definite audience that will google it up and do absolutely nothing for the wider GURPS line.

Hell Sean Punch even had a great article about how to do GURPS Dungeon Fantasy without points! Basically you use GURPS to figure out packages organized into menus that players can combine to create a viable DF character of a specific point value.

What happened to GURPS is Munchkin. All of the company's creativity and innovation is going into Munchkin and along with other board games as a hedge.  GURPS didn't decline in design or quality, it just been in a holding pattern since the early 2000s. GURPS generates just enough sales to warrant a hardback every couple of years, and a PDF pipeline.

SJ Games was early adopter of the web and with e23 got out there with PDF publishing. However they have a in-house mentality that is causing them to miss the on-going print on demand revolution. Which again is understandable given their current focus on Munchkin, and board games.

Quote from: estar;839835The issues with GURPS are in my opinion solely of presentation. It is publisher's, SJ Games, choices that GURPS is presented in a way that requires a prospective referee to build his own game out of the "toolkit".

There is nothing intrinsic about GURPS that demands this. Even with the limited resources SJ Games is willing to put into GURPS there is no reason why the line can't have both. The all-in-one toolkit and something more straightforward to rope in a larger audience.

But because of the prejudices of the line editor, Sean Punch, and the company owner, Steve Jackson, that is not going to happen. Instead they are going to work on GURPS Discworld. Which I am sure will be a excellent product with a definite audience that will google it up and do absolutely nothing for the wider GURPS line.

Hell Sean Punch even had a great article about how to do GURPS Dungeon Fantasy without points! Basically you use GURPS to figure out packages organized into menus that players can combine to create a viable DF character of a specific point value.

What happened to GURPS is Munchkin. All of the company's creativity and innovation is going into Munchkin and along with other board games as a hedge.  GURPS didn't decline in design or quality, it just been in a holding pattern since the early 2000s. GURPS generates just enough sales to warrant a hardback every couple of years, and a PDF pipeline.

SJ Games was early adopter of the web and with e23 got out there with PDF publishing. However they have a in-house mentality that is causing them to miss the on-going print on demand revolution. Which again is understandable given their current focus on Munchkin, and board games.

I think the combat round is still more complex than (for example) D&D 5E or Savage Worlds.  Mostly because there are a lot of modifiers and the level of granulation is high.  If people have memorized the options (or have a signature move that they keep on their character sheet) and are efficient during the round (preparing and calculating for their move) then it doesn't have to be slow.  But the level of options is still both high and often requires a fair bit of math to decide between "telegraphing", a "normal strike", and a "deceptive strike".  

This doesn't mean it is a bad system -- if you want combat where you could actually play out a duel in a non-abstract way then GURPS is almost the only option.   But it does require a lot of system mastery in play (or a ton of hand holding).  Some of how we used to make the system work was to ignore (by accident) a lot of the combat mechanics.  And there are simplified versions of the combat system around.

But this goes to your more general point that the game doesn't have to be cast as a toolkit.

Quote from: Votan;840157I think the combat round is still more complex than (for example) D&D 5E or Savage Worlds..

GURPS Combat has four levels of detail. Basic, Advanced, Tactical and any of the former with supplements like Martial Arts. GURPS Basic combat is at the same complexity as D&D 3e onwards and Savage Worlds. It only when you get into Advanced, Tactical, and the supplement that everything stacks up. And it is presented that way both in 3rd edition and 4th edition.

Quote from: Votan;840157But this goes to your more general point that the game doesn't have to be cast as a toolkit.

And it may be that the Complete GURPS Fantasy RPG should only present the basic combat rules in order for it to properly fulfill it role as a gateway into the rest of the line. Personally if I was writing it would stick to Basic + a very limited selection of advanced options with the tactical option distilled to two pages for those who like miniatures. Maybe none of the advanced options depending on how it works out in playtesting.

Another way of thinking of my idea would be GURPS Lite level of detail + content (monsters, items, sample adventure, etc).

Quote from: estar;840212Another way of thinking of my idea would be GURPS Lite level of detail + content (monsters, items, sample adventure, etc).

That is the way to grow a player base.  Once people are experienced with the less complex forms of the game, they can have enhancements introduced gradually.  I have never been able to stay at the most basic combat level because somebody tries something complicated and . . . well, there are rules, aren't there?  

But I have played and GMed in both D&D and GURPS.  D&D 3.5, at moderate to high levels, was getting as complicated as GURPS.  But AD&D (especially if you did early 2E) and D&D 5E are definitely less complicated than any form of GURPS we tried.  Almost all of my actual GURPS play experience is 3E, which might make a difference.    4E is harder for me to judge, and I played a lot less of it.

GURP combat is conducted in one second rounds with each combatant taking their action in order of Move with Basic Speed breaking ties.  On their turn a character can aim, gaining their missile weapon's accuracy bonus and up to two more points at a rate of one point per turn, move, take a step and concentrate or move and attack, or take a half move and make two attacks, a melee attack at plus four to hit, or one attack at plus two or one per die to damage all at the cost of sacrificing all defense rolls until their next turn.

If a who character didn't make an all out attack is hit with an attack they can make an active defense roll.  Melee attacks can be dodged, blocked with a shield, or parried with a weapon.  Missile attacks can only be dodged.  Retreating a step while defending gives a one point bonus to blocks and parries with most weapons.  Retreating gives a three point bonus to dodges and parries with staves and fencing weapons.

Quote from: David Johansen;840587GURP combat is conducted in one second rounds

This is the part that trips of most novice players in my GURPS. I generally explain it that you can do just one thing and one thing only. Players are really used to be able to do a long move and a action or even multiple actions during a RPG combat round. With GURPS you do a move or an actions but not both unless you are willing to suffer a huge downside.

The rest is usually easily grasped after a few combats even with the tactical options I use a part of my campaigns. Mostly because for normal type characters everything in GURPS has a one to one correspondence to real life.

I always liked GURPS Lite better than GURPS. Less calories.

Quote from: RPGPundit;841051I always liked GURPS Lite better than GURPS. Less calories.

You should sip a GURPS Ultra Light, its effervescent!

Quote from: trechriron;841061You should sip a GURPS Ultra Light, its effervescent!

Huh. First I hear of it.