First of all, I must say that I liked HULK's avatar better. I feel like I need to recreate my worldview now. Damn!

Quote from: CRKrueger;886572(...)weird shit starts happening when people forget things like basic definitions and how things work outside their own preferences.

True, true. Fun fact: I observe it in many different aspects of reality. People jump straight into advanced stuff without learning the basics. It's like they start with "break the rules" without knowing them.

Age of Aquarius & shit. :rolleyes:

Quote from: CRKrueger;886572I must have been having a Baxter moment.

Can't say I'm familiar with the term. An outsider here, hello!

Quote from: CRKrueger;886572If it's his beliefs, his rationale, his opinion on the gods, sure, why wouldn't I let him know his own mind?  When he expects his beliefs to magically and retroactively create an Anti-Church of His Beliefs that he is a contributing member of, that's where he gets off the Player bus and goes and makes his own setting.

I see... One more question, just for the sake of clarity: there's no problem with said player actually starting his Church in addition to whatever the adventure is supposed to be about? I mean it's that "retroactively" part that's important here, isn't it?

Quote from: Daztur;886574To be honest I'd actually prefer this as a DM. (...)

I understand where it comes from and it's reasonable. I can't say I have some fixed preferences concerning this - for me things tend to change according to the game/system/genre/scenario's length/players... Sometimes it's ok, sometimes it's actually useful to have a guy with 10 pages long background.

Well, as long as he doesn't bitch about everyone else memorizing it and demands for his story to be part of each and every session.

Side note:

Spoiler

Cheers!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886587The longest character background I ever wrote was "son of a landless knight."  I don't write character backgrounds, period.  I don't care where my character came from, I care what my character is doing.

I also don't expect the referee to create a world to cater to my character.  I want an open map where I can go wherever the whim takes me.  I want to wander around an interesting setting and see interesting stuff.

I see.

I envy you the group you're playing with. Usually it takes some time to find people who either accept or adjust to your gaming style (especially if there's a slight nonconformism involved).

Quote from: JesterRaiinI understand where it comes from and it's reasonable. I can't say I have some fixed preferences concerning this - for me things tend to change according to the game/system/genre/scenario's length/players... Sometimes it's ok, sometimes it's actually useful to have a guy with 10 pages long background.

Yep, this is where my preferences fall too.

Quote from: Itachi;886608Yep, this is where my preferences fall too.

Spoiler

I understand it's complicated and that there are truckloads of possible scenarios (for example, I know a guy who has been running RPGs for ONE SINGLE player for almost 10 years), but way I see it, it's very hard to maintain one and the same approach, same attitude "no matter what".

I mean, you don't run and play D&D just like you do with Call of Cthulhu, or Fading Suns... Some things have to change,

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886587The longest character background I ever wrote was "son of a landless knight."  I don't write character backgrounds, period.  I don't care where my character came from, I care what my character is doing.

I also don't expect the referee to create a world to cater to my character.  I want an open map where I can go wherever the whim takes me.  I want to wander around an interesting setting and see interesting stuff.

For you or anyone who feels this way, are you still interested in background for NPCs, places, and so forth?  i.e. An important NPC whose family was killed by orcs, or a town where the last mayor robbed all the local treasury, etc.

Or should NPCs, places, and such also have only a bare minimum of background?

Quote from: JesterRaiin;886605First of all, I must say that I liked HULK's avatar better. I feel like I need to recreate my worldview now. Damn!

He'll come back, don't worry.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;886605Can't say I'm familiar with the term. An outsider here, hello!

I meant Banner moment.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;886605I see... One more question, just for the sake of clarity: there's no problem with said player actually starting his Church in addition to whatever the adventure is supposed to be about? I mean it's that "retroactively" part that's important here, isn't it?

Yeah, you want to start a church, create a country, found a dynasty, exterminate all gelatinous cubes, do it with your character during the game, not as a player before or outside the game.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;886605I understand where it comes from and it's reasonable. I can't say I have some fixed preferences concerning this - for me things tend to change according to the game/system/genre/scenario's length/players... Sometimes it's ok, sometimes it's actually useful to have a guy with 10 pages long background.

If it's a one shot or a convention, who cares - yeah you're the real exiled King of Siam, cool, whatever.  
In Apocalypse World, where there is no setting outside of what's being collaboratively built by the players at the time, again, who cares?  I acquire a hardhold, it appears in thin air.  Whatever.
I've never seen a 10-page backstory come from anything other than a complete and total jackass unless
1. That person knows a lot about the setting, ie. an established player
2. Clears the the crap they're declaring with the gm (and the tenpagers are always declaring all kinds of things)
3. We're doing some weird alt-rpg thing.

I've been trying to figure out how the hell to get Primator Double 24 in the US.

Quote from: CRKrueger;886639He'll come back, don't worry.

YES!

Quote from: CRKrueger;886639I meant Banner moment.

CRKrueger: usually he is a brave, colossal machine of destruction, but sometimes he calms down and becomes a savage Barbarian accompanied by mostly naked chicks...

Erm... I think there's a potential for an interesting PC. :hmm:

Quote from: CRKrueger;886639Yeah, you want to start a church, create a country, found a dynasty, exterminate all gelatinous cubes, do it with your character during the game, not as a player before or outside the game.

We're on pretty much same page then. Thanks.

Quote from: CRKrueger;886639I've never seen a 10-page backstory come from anything other than a complete and total jackass unless (...)

I admit that "10 pages" is a bit of exaggeration, but yes, pretty much.
I'll add #4: there are certain games that, if not centered around longish, detailed writing, certainly encourage it. One of my most favorite ones, De Profundis belongs to this categorythough I'd be reluctant to call it "a tabletop RPG".

Quote from: CRKrueger;886639I've been trying to figure out how the hell to get Primator Double 24 in the US.

Finally! People who appreciate manly stuff! I knew it'd be good to register an account here. :hatsoff:

Unfortunately, I don't know how to help. It's damn expensive to send stuff across the ocean...

Side note:
I know better beers than Primator, but heck, they don't sell worldwide either.

Spoiler

Quote from: JesterRaiin;886295My point of view: I can only say, that I don't like *.World games very much. I find no fun in "building from the scratch", perpetual defining some elements I usually expect to be already established, so if I'm welcomed to play a game and there's a setting included, I find it quite helpful.

I like both. Or more aptly I like a median between the two ends. BX's Karameikos as it was originally presented was a map and a few place names and terrain features. The rest was up to you to flesh out as you pleased. That is the sort of setting I like. One where some basics are worked out and the rest is up to me.

I do though enjoy world building from scratch. Though obviously depending on the system that can be alot of work. But I enjoy it.

I also like firmly established settings. As long as they dont get absurdly crowded. Mystara for BECMI and the gazeteers were not to my liking as they cluttered up the world too much. Greyhawk felt more balanced and less cluttered on the other hand.

Others seem to really like super cluttered settings like Mystara or what Forgotten Realms eventually became.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;886555I'm curious about "Tremulus" - do you think it's good enough to actually deliver the experience similar to games like "Call/Trail of Cthulhu"? Those a few sessions I've had weren't especially good, but there were many factors influencing the outcome.

I GM'ed a Call of Cthulhu game for some friends a couple of years back, we played for a few months (it was quite fun). A while afterwards, I GM'ed tremulus to the same group, and we had quite fun as well. One of my friends prefered CoC, the other prefered tremulus, but we enjoyed both.

The key difference, I think, was that the player who prefered CoC liked more action-packed scenes (which are easier to pull off in CoC, IMHO).

If I had to GM a new Lovecraftian campaign, I don't which one I'll choose. I like CoC because the system is more "classical", but on the other end I like the experience tremulus offers as well. I'll probably choose the system based on the kind of story we'd want to play (if it involves action, crazy books and spells probably CoC, if it more about investigation and characters dying against the supernatural without hope, then tremulus).

Ah, fuck it... *puts on beer nerd hat*

Baltic Porters are great beers but a lot of commercial examples are either too sweet (edging towards dopplebocks) or just don't have the massive punch of flavor you want for the style (like the Baltika one which is just OK). On the other hand you don't want punch in the mouth bitterness like with an American RIS. So how to put together one that'd taste better than the ones people are posting pictures of?

Base malt:
Traditional Pilsner/Munich split is fine. Just avoid American Munich as that tends to be too sweet which is something you want to avoid in a big beer like this.  If I wanted to be untraditional I'd just use a bunch of Vienna malt because Vienna malt is awesome.

Shoot for about 1.080 Original Gravity. Dealing with the fermentation of beers bigger than that is a pain and they tend to require aging which is also annoying.

Specialty malt:
A lot of Baltic porter recipes I've seen use a shit ton of one some kinds of Caramunich, perhaps a pound in five gallons which gives them their caramelly-sweet malt taste. Screw that. Get some really dark crystal and then only use a little bit, maybe 6-7 oz. English C120 for a more burnt sugar taste or German Caraaroma or Belgian Special B for more of a dark fruit taste. That shit is powerful so a little goes a long way so you'll get plenty of flavor without toooooooo much sweetness.

One thing I've never seen Baltic Porter recipes use is brown malt, which was the standby in the old old English porter recipes that inspired Baltic porters before people got cheap and started using lots of pale malt with just enough black patent malt to turn it black. Brown malt is great stuff so I'd put in a good bit of that, probably Carabrown as it's less bitter than more heavily toasted English brown malt so you won't get the kind of bite that'd more in keeping with a modern American stout. Gives a lovely toasty undertone to a beer. Bit sweet but that's OK.

Then to make the beer black the standard German Carafa malt or the American equivalent (dark chocolate malt) is fine. Just don't cheat and use that debittered shit, it's got to have SOME roast. If you're not using much or any of really bitter shit like roasted barley or black patent malt it won't be too bitter or taste like charcoal.

Hops:

Most Baltic porters don't really have much hop presence. Again, screw that. That said, you don't want it to be an American style grapefruit bomb either. I'd go with Polish Junga hops which are a cross between Northern Brewer (a good solid workhorse hop that's mostly out of style these days) and Marynka (old school Polish hop that's a bit like Czech hops such as Saaz) and put big giant fistfuls of it in late in the boil and then not really bother with flameout/whirlpool/hopstand hops or dry hops. Those tend to work better with American hops that have a lot of hop oils that boil off really easily while more old world hops tend to have oils with higher boiling points (myrcene IIRC) so boiling them enough to get the oils out without evaporating the oils seems like a good plan.

Junga hops are said to have a good earthy flavor which would be perfect here.

Fermentation:

To be authentic I should use lager yeast but with a beer this flavorful using a clean ale yeast is probably going to be pretty damn indistinguishable. Lagering is a pain so would probably use good old US-05/1056, i.e. Chico yeast the stuff that Sierra Nevada uses as that's a good solid workhorse yeast. Either that or Nottingham depending on whether the temperature might get too hot (US-05) or if the weather might get too cold (Notthingham). Will pitch shit tons of yeast since US-05 is a bit of a slow starter and I get really nervous when the yeast is lazy.

US-05 is a good attenuator (eats lots of sugar) which is a good thing here. It also has great alcohol tolerance, wonderful yeast (except a bit slow and not the best flocculation, i.e. yeast doesn't clump to the bottom that well).

Northern Brewer is out of style?  Man, it HAS been a while since I was looking at homebrewing!

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886783Northern Brewer is out of style?  Man, it HAS been a while since I was looking at homebrewing!

The hops that pushed Northern Brewer out of style are now out of style.

Quote from: jhkim;886634For you or anyone who feels this way, are you still interested in background for NPCs, places, and so forth?  i.e. An important NPC whose family was killed by orcs, or a town where the last mayor robbed all the local treasury, etc.

Or should NPCs, places, and such also have only a bare minimum of background?

Great question and I hope this turns into a long subthread.

Briefly because I don't want to type "WALL O' TEXT" to give all my thougths...

It depends.  The referee can put in as much background as he or she wishes, but they should not necessarily expect me to care.  Now, both those examples sound like adventure hooks to me, so as a player I'd usually want to know a bit more, yeah.  But if all I'm getting is a sob story, no thanks.

"A sad story.  Is it true?"
"No.  There is a song as well."

Using my usual list of adventure hooks, if we take, oh, the gargoyles attacking the town of Post Hole, I will have some local person who knows about this, and cares, and can give the players enough info to start the quest.  I do this for pretty much all my adventure hooks I leave lying around; I have a one paragraph summary and enough detail for a session or two.  If players bite at it I can always expand, but if they don't bite I haven't wasted a lot of time.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;886785Using my usual list of adventure hooks, if we take, oh, the gargoyles attacking the town of Post Hole, I will have some local person who knows about this, and cares, and can give the players enough info to start the quest.  I do this for pretty much all my adventure hooks I leave lying around; I have a one paragraph summary and enough detail for a session or two.  If players bite at it I can always expand, but if they don't bite I haven't wasted a lot of time.

Out of curiosity: did you ever play Beyond the Wall and other Adventures?

Quote from: Daztur;886766Ah, fuck it... *puts on beer nerd hat*

Baltic Porters are great beers but a lot of commercial examples are either too sweet (edging towards dopplebocks) or just don't have the massive punch of flavor you want for the style (like the Baltika one which is just OK). On the other hand you don't want punch in the mouth bitterness like with an American RIS. So how to put together one that'd taste better than the ones people are posting pictures of?

Tips fedora.

Soooo... OT, but f.. it. My thread, I'm gonna discus whatever shit I want here.

Story time.

I assume my people still have the opinion of being heavy drinkers and vodka/cheap alcohol abusers (depending on social class/status, of course). I'm not sure why. While heavy drinking is one of our national treasures and drowning your sorrows in an alcohol is pretty much a sport discipline, there are also plenty of countries that put our successes in both these fields to shame.

Anyway. Enter last 15-20 years.

Beer industry becomes stronger than ever. Small, local breweries multiply like catholic rabbits. There's probably no bigger city without its own beer. There are cases of recipes being stolen, breweries fighting each other, marks being taken over.

Add one of our national traits: we love to tweak, tinker, find workarounds and combine things from unexpected elements. Because of that, you can often find beers unlike any other. Not that I assume that only us experiment with beerbrewing - I simply observe that we too experiment, add spices, herbs, try new approach and therefore produce tastes that are our own and hardly match universally accepted styles.

Take Baltic Porters. Sure we produce them, and we call truckload of beers "Baltic Porters", but in all honesty, when the taste is discussed, they don't really match the criteria and aren't that similar to what you would expect.

So, I'm 100% sure I'd find something more relevant to your taste if "not quite sweet/not that bitter" is what you seek. :cool:

Spoiler

Side note: We have a family recipe for porter-based vodka. It's one of those beverages that switch off your higher cognitive functions with no warning. It's... An interesting process, to say the least. It shows your true character.
In piva veritas est.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;886825Add one of our national traits: we love to tweak, tinker, find workarounds and combine things from unexpected elements. Because of that, you can often find beers unlike any other. Not that I assume that only us experiment with beerbrewing - I simply observe that we too experiment, add spices, herbs, try new approach and therefore produce tastes that are our own and hardly match universally accepted styles.

I think that's often the problem with American beer nerds, trying to box foreign styles into narrow (and often artificial) categories based on just a few commercial examples while ignoring the diversity on the ground. Mea culpa.

It's interesting seeing the Korean craft beer scene just explode after the distribution laws were relaxed in 2014 (before that there was a law setting a VERY high minimum production for beer to be legally distributed so you had some brew pubs but none of them could sell their beer anywhere by on premises). Imported beer is also booming massively, apparently imports of Belgian beer have gone up by 60% a year for most of the past decade.

It'll take some for the local scene to get its act together since a lot of the imported stuff is incredibly boring continental mass market stuff, the imported craft beer is stupidly expensive and the local craft beer is still mostly bad knock-offs of California beer instead of something original.

The interesting thing is the local craft beer scene seems to be 60-70% female, with late-twenties yuppies with expensive handbags predominating. That and there seems to be a lot of malty pale ales with a lot of American hop flavor and not that much bitterness. Delicious, beats the current American trend of making beers that taste like hop tea with a shot of vodka.