After four years of excuses some KS backers are getting fed up and at least one went to the Washington State Attorney General's office after being refused a refund.
This is how to not run your KS.
Finally though some updates and chapter peeks at least as of August 2015.
So much for that 2011 release date?
Anyone else back this train wreck? Looked interesting, A sort of Shanghi Noon or Kung Fu, Western meets Martial arts RPG.
Oh. Repeat rinse and wash for his Buckaroo Banzai RPG too. Where did he even get the money to license that?
Nope. Premise didn't grab me.
Quote from: Omega;857277Oh. Repeat rinse and wash for his Buckaroo Banzai RPG too. Where did he even get the money to license that?
I dunno, Kickstarter? :D
He also did pre-orders for ICONS Team-Up. That, at least, released in PDF (exceedingly late), and is very good, but I paid for hardcopy, and never saw a refund on the extra. I hope as many backers as possible go to their State's Attorney General to pursue this; he deserves what's coming to him.
I have not really followed this story, only heard about what a clusterfuck it turned into. It is kind of fascinating in a horrible way, like car-crash fascinating.
Then I looked up the guy... it is the Adamant Entertainment guy! I remember him being responsible for all sorts of cock-ups. He did a monthly supplement thing where people paid in advance for X months. And, surprise, he never delivered! He also had China Mieville involved in his company to do an RPG setting, something I really looked forward to, which never materialized.
It is a shame really, the guy has some good ideas.
Quote from: The Butcher;857288Nope. Premise didn't grab me.
Nor me.
From what little I know, the guy has had some difficult health problems and I wish him the best on that.
As far as kickstarters are concerned, I just assume they're a gamble, unless the project sponsors have a really strong KS track record, and even then, stuff happens.
Quote from: Saplatt;857309From what little I know, the guy has had some difficult health problems and I wish him the best on that.
Yeah, too bad those had nothing whatsoever to do with the delays, which had been ongoing (with a large helping of lies) for
years by the time that happened. The only relationship health troubles have to the current fiasco is that he may have spent all the remaining Kickstarter and Pre-order funds to cover medical expense. Only he would know, but he certainly claims to have no money for anything else.
Quote from: Saplatt;857309As far as kickstarters are concerned, I just assume they're a gamble, unless the project sponsors have a really strong KS track record, and even then, stuff happens.
They're always a gamble, no matter what, because, as you say, stuff happens. Nevertheless, some behaviour is acceptable when problems are encountered, some is not.
The number of Kickstarters that fell apart due to personal tragedy and/or illness makes me wonder if there's a curse or something.
Also the latest excuses from James Wallis are pretty laughable ("my laptop broke down, and I lost all of the working files!"). That excuse wouldn't have worked 10 years ago. Well, maybe if he backed everything onto Zip Disks. Those things were fucking AWFUL.
He also did the preorder for Warlords of the Apocalypse, the Pathfinder Gamma World setting. That one was before all of these others and it never surfaced either, but at least I got my refund on it.
Quote from: Necrozius;857319The number of Kickstarters that fell apart due to personal tragedy and/or illness makes me wonder if there's a curse or something.
You may have already gathered this from the above, but just to make it crystal clear: these projects were already completely borked looooooong before GMS had a whiff of health trouble. Mentioning "health troubles" in conjunction with these projects just muddies the waters, and suggests that there's some legitimacy to the absurdity. There isn't.
Quote from: Necrozius;857319Also the latest excuses from James Wallis are pretty laughable ("my laptop broke down, and I lost all of the working files!"). That excuse wouldn't have worked 10 years ago. Well, maybe if he backed everything onto Zip Disks. Those things were fucking AWFUL.
Funny enough, GMS used this one on ICONS Team-Up, too. All the working files lost. Really, all things considered, it's amazing that any book was EVER forthcoming on that one (or any of them).
Quote from: Saplatt;857309Nor me.
From what little I know, the guy has had some difficult health problems and I wish him the best on that.
As far as kickstarters are concerned, I just assume they're a gamble, unless the project sponsors have a really strong KS track record, and even then, stuff happens.
I've been pretty interested in this one. I don't back kick starters so looking at this as a non-backer. I feel the same way on the health issue. I wasn't following this closely early on and haven't really been able to make much sense of all the back and forth surrounding the issue. I do see that he is legitimately sick with something related to diverticulitis and required pretty extensive surgery to treat it. So at least since that has been happening I expect it is going to impact his ability to work on things. What happened before that, I can't really weigh in on. I can say, having a condition like that myself, that these sorts of illnesses can build for years in stops and starts before culminating in this kind of acute infection and that can definitely impact a person's ability to work. I don't know his personal situation there though. Personally I am inclined to be patient for it to come out when he is able to put it out. Seems like a sincere guy to me based on the interactions I've had.
Quote from: Necrozius;857319The number of Kickstarters that fell apart due to personal tragedy and/or illness makes me wonder if there's a curse or something.
Unfortunately "Its delayed! Health Problems" is the number 2 excuse given to stall people or to garner a sympathy waiver. The number 1 excuse is "Working on it! Going to the printers soon! Working on it! Going to the printers soon!"
An artist I used to work with has made into a business "Im sick! Commission me to help pay the bills!" while regularly ripping off customers with the same gag. This has been going on since the late 90s.
It makes it ever harder for indie designers with actual health problems during production to be believed.
I backed it as my first KS. but from what I have seen since the spectacular failure of this one is all down to Gareth Michael Skarka, who has consistently shown himself to be toxic, incapable, and thoroughly unprofessional. Though he has been seriously ill, this really doesn't wash when the project is looked at a whole.
I will never have anything to do with him again and, given how he treats his backers, I have no sympathy with his accusations of being abandoned by other contributors. I cannot blame them for avoiding his work like the plague.
This is obligatory at the moment: http://www.isfarwestoutyet.com/
Funnily enough, even this website has given up tracking the release dates.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;857341I've been pretty interested in this one. I don't back kick starters so looking at this as a non-backer. I feel the same way on the health issue. I wasn't following this closely early on and haven't really been able to make much sense of all the back and forth surrounding the issue. I do see that he is legitimately sick with something related to diverticulitis and required pretty extensive surgery to treat it. So at least since that has been happening I expect it is going to impact his ability to work on things. What happened before that, I can't really weigh in on. I can say, having a condition like that myself, that these sorts of illnesses can build for years in stops and starts before culminating in this kind of acute infection and that can definitely impact a person's ability to work. I don't know his personal situation there though. Personally I am inclined to be patient for it to come out when he is able to put it out. Seems like a sincere guy to me based on the interactions I've had.
I have two close members of my family who have suffered ruptured bowels due to this illness. It is terrible and life-threatening, and I would wish it on no one. Having said that, bringing it up in the context of these products and their delays is disingenuous
at best. A couple who have done so here, yourself included, have admitted that you did not follow the situation closely "early on" (whatever that means, as it has taken years to get here). If that's the case, then quit repeating second-hand information that is highly misleading.
The situation with these products was a bad joke long before GMS became ill. They were all due months or even years before that happened. Suggesting that illness somehow explains what happened is just looking for an excuse for someone's virtually fraudulent behaviour. Moreover, GMS had his reconnection surgery more than a year ago, with supposedly a full recovery, and yet the situation with the products mentioned has simply been more of the same. Even GMS has not tried to excuse all that's happened with his unexpected illness, so quit trying to do it for him. It's misinformed, misplaced, and worse, does a complete disservice to someone who ends up legitimately having problems delivering due to illness.
Quote from: Bobloblah;857347I have two close members of my family who have suffered ruptured bowels due to this illness. It is terrible and life-threatening, and I would wish it on no one. Having said that, bringing it up in the context of these products and their delays is disingenuous at best. A couple who have done so here, yourself included, have admitted that you did not follow the situation closely "early on" (whatever that means, as it has taken years to get here). If that's the case, then quit repeating second-hand information that is highly misleading.
It means I didn't become aware of the project until I saw Skarka's posts about his surgery. It flew under my radar and wasn't paying a lot of attention to kick starters at the time. Since then, his posts on the subject have seemed believable to me and the condition serious. As far as I know I haven't repeated any misleading second hand information. Was pretty clear that I didn't follow it early on. If you don't find his explanations believable, that is fine. Think what you want. Personally I am inclined to believe the guy based on my own experiences and what I've seen him say. Again, if you feel otherwise, I don't really have an issue. But don't insist everyone else has to agree with you or be just as pissed off about a late kickstarter. My point was having had bowel surgeries and IBD issues, I know how long this stuff can simmer before it really comes to a head, and I can imagine that this may well have been at months or years before he had to go in for any surgeries. It makes me inclined to believe it could have contributed to delays prior to that point. Even if it wasn't, I read his present posts as sincere, believe he is working on it, but that it will take time because you don't just recover instantly from this sort of illness. It takes time, and you can hit a lot of road bumps along the way.
Two weeks before GMS became seriously ill over 18 months ago, we had an estimate from GMS that the book was 24 hours from PDF release. The Is Far West Out Yet site shows how (at best) delusional GMS has been with his estimates.
The fact that he is now saying he is back to laying out chapters which were apparently finished 12 months ago is concerning but not surprising.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;857350It means I didn't become aware of the project until I saw Skarka's posts about his surgery. It flew under my radar and wasn't paying a lot of attention to kick starters at the time. Since then, his posts on the subject have seemed believable to me and the condition serious. As far as I know I haven't repeated any misleading second hand information. Was pretty clear that I didn't follow it early on. If you don't find his explanations believable, that is fine. Think what you want. Personally I am inclined to believe the guy based on my own experiences and what I've seen him say. Again, if you feel otherwise, I don't really have an issue. But don't insist everyone else has to agree with you or be just as pissed off about a late kickstarter.
Believe me, I am not insisting everyone agree with me. That's not the problem with what you or anyone else has said. The trouble is the suggestion that the products are only, or in any significant part, delayed because of GMS' health. That's categorically false. So much so, that GMS, to my knowledge, has never made the claim that his illness was the problem before he was first hospitalized. So why do people, who admit they don't know, come into threads and throw up their hands, "well, he was legitimately ill, so..."
I completely believe GMS when he says his bowel ruptured due to divertic. That has
very little bordering on nothing to do with why none of his projects are released. Look at the original release date for Far West: December 2011. Now look at when GMS' "guts tried to kill (him)": February 2014. By GMS' own account, the bowel trouble caught him completely by surprise. It simply can't explain the previous two years of delay (and lies, and evasions, and excuses, etc.). What it
can explain is why there is now no money to print Team-Up or issue refunds for products never delivered. Whether that is, in and of itself, acceptable is up to the individuals owed the money to decide.
As for the second-hand information remark, I re-read your post and Saplatt's, and I'll apologise for that. That may be me inferring too much from your remarks around his health. It's simply very frustrating to have his health dragged out in the context of the delays as any sort of justification. That excuse doesn't just clash with the established facts, it's one that GMS hasn't tried to use to explain
all the delays.
Quote from: Bobloblah;857354Believe me, I am not insisting everyone agree with me. That's not the problem with what you or anyone else has said. The trouble is the suggestion that the products are only, or in any significant part, delayed because of GMS' health. That's categorically false. So much so, that GMS, to my knowledge, has never made the claim that his illness was the problem before he was first hospitalized. So why do people, who admit they don't know, come into threads and throw up their hands, "well, he was legitimately ill, so..."
I completely believe GMS when he says his bowel ruptured due to divertic. That has very little bordering on nothing to do with why none of his projects are released. Look at the original release date for Far West: December 2011. Now look at when GMS' "guts tried to kill (him)": February 2014. By GMS' own account, the bowel trouble caught him completely by surprise. It simply can't explain the previous two years of delay (and lies, and evasions, and excuses, etc.). What it can explain is why there is now no money to print Team-Up or issue refunds for products never delivered. Whether that is, in and of itself, acceptable is up to the individuals owed the money to decide.
As for the second-hand information remark, I re-read your post and Saplatt's, and I'll apologise for that. That may be me inferring too much from your remarks around his health. It's simply very frustrating to have his health dragged out in the context of the delays as any sort of justification. That excuse doesn't just clash with the established facts, it's one that GMS hasn't tried to use to explain all the delays.
I am not saying it explains all the delays, nor am I justifying the delays that occurred. I am simply saying I can see how such health issues would have played a role during the production of the game, and that presently I would expect them to have an impact. My opinion here is simply, again as a non-backer, I am interested in the game and am willing to be patient with the release. Based his posts I've seen since the surgery, and the interactions I've had with him, I think he is working on the project and it will just take time. Definitely having had surgeries like that myself, it does make me sympathetic as I've had to work on projects leading up to and following recoveries. That has all kinds of crazy impacts on your ability to generate creative material. And again, I am not attributing
all delays to that.
Quote from: Bobloblah;857354As for the second-hand information remark, I re-read your post and Saplatt's, and I'll apologise for that. That may be me inferring too much from your remarks around his health.
Thanks.
Didn't know about his health issues. Poor bastard.
I wish him and his backers the best of luck.
Quote from: Bobloblah;857354...
As for the second-hand information remark, I re-read your post and Saplatt's, and I'll apologise for that. That may be me inferring too much from your remarks around his health.
I can see how you'd interpret my post that way, but to be clear:
1. I've never had any interest in the project and therefore haven't followed it. Nothing personal against GMS or his talents; I just have no interest in that genre mash. At all. Never have.
2. I have absolutely no idea what was behind the delays, what was promised, who did what or who said what when.
3. I have heard the guy is seriously ill and, like anyone else, he has my sympathies and well-wishes.
It does seem to me that this whole mess has probably damaged his reputation in the industry. And that's going to be hard to restore. Who knows? Maybe that's even been added pressure to futilely try to turn out some sort of "masterpiece." Maybe not. Like I said, I have no idea.
One thing I do know is that when you promise people something and don't deliver, they get pretty pissed. And the more you do that, the more pissed off they get.
How much could the license fee for Buckaroo Banzai actually be? I'm not sure it even qualifies as a cult movie - I don't think I've ever seen it on TV. Probably much cheaper than something like Big Trouble in Little China or even Miami Connection.
Anyway, there are really probably two factors. For one, it's hard to motivate yourself (at least a lot of people) when you already have a pile of money. At worst, people are going to yell at you. But you have their money, so what can they actually do? (This is sort of the whole basis for capitalism, people work much harder when they get money for their work, if they get the money first they simply won't work as hard).
For another, gamers tend not to be the healthiest lot in the world. And I'm guessing many game designers don't have health insurance, so they probably don't get much in the way of preventative care...
Quote from: Saplatt;857377It does seem to me that this whole mess has probably damaged his reputation in the industry. And that's going to be hard to restore.
:rotfl:
That there is some serious understatement. For anyone who is familiar with what has happened, he has utterly destroyed his reputation, possibly beyond repair.
Quote from: Saplatt;8573771. I've never had any interest in the project and therefore haven't followed it. Nothing personal against GMS or his talents; I just have no interest in that genre mash. At all. Never have.
2. I have absolutely no idea what was behind the delays, what was promised, who did what or who said what when.
3. I have heard the guy is seriously ill and, like anyone else, he has my sympathies and well-wishes.
And I get all that, but I think the last part, in particular, is just completely misplaced in the discussion about the problems with his projects. I, too, feel sympathy for someone who has to deal with the health troubles he had.
But, imagine, if you will:
Somebody defrauds you out of your house...
So you speak up, saying, "This guy really ripped me off. I lost my house."
And then another random person comes along, discussing the person who defrauded you, saying, "Poor guy. He cut off his leg!"
And you say, "Wait, what?"
So they repeat themselves, "Can you imagine? It's hard to be upset at them for the house when they cut off their leg!"
At which stage you point out, "But he cut his leg off two years AFTER he defrauded me out of my home..."
Now yes, losing a home and losing a leg are worse than what's actually happened, but I'm trying to provide a more extreme example to throw into relief the disconnect between the blown pre-order and Kickstarters, and his health troubles. The latter has nothing to do with the former. He had years before he got sick. He's had more than a year since he should've been recovered from his final surgery, and it's just like the two years before he got sick (i.e. lies, lies, and more lies). And that's not opinion, that's
fact based on the public record. At what point do you stop making excuses for GMS?
He appears to be making noises on Kickstarter that, this time, he
really will finish writing the thing. We'll see.
tldr: Yes, he's had health troubles. No, those have no real bearing on the current complaints.
So just how much money did you lose on this thing, anyway?
Quote from: JeremyR;857386For another, gamers tend not to be the healthiest lot in the world. And I'm guessing many game designers don't have health insurance, so they probably don't get much in the way of preventative care...
These are expensive health issues. At one point I think my insurance paid like a 30,000 dollar bill for a single surgery. Something like what he had, I don't know how preventative you could be though. I had health insurance and I spent roughly 2 to 2 1/2 years in and out of the emergency room with horrible infections before it came to the point that I needed surgery and then spent another year and half before they were able to identify the cause (and that's with insurance, and me going to the doctor all the time). I can say leading up to that first surgery it impacted everything. I was still able to work and write, but I had to drink like 7 cups of coffee a day just to have the energy to write a page of material on many days. Some of my worst work was done during that period. Prior to the surgery, in that 2 and half year period, I wouldn't have called myself sick or admitted it was having the impact it was because it was on and off. His condition is different form mine, but appears to be in the same class, so I just am generally sympathetic to him and feel it likely had a bigger impact than people realize on the process (and again, not saying it was the only thing here).
Quote from: Saplatt;857471So just how much money did you lose on this thing, anyway?
I backed the "Alas Vegas" kickstarter back in '13, and when that one was a year late, we were promised an additional free pdf copy of "Far West" as compensation. So I didn't lose money on
this thing, but I do have a small stake in it.
("Alas Vegas" also isn't out yet.)
It's one thing to fuck up a Kickstarter and deliver nothing...that's bad, no matter what the reason. The terrible part about the Far West Kickstarter is the outright contempt GMS seems to have for anyone asking where the fuck it is, as if his customers should just be happy they were allowed to give him money. That dude is a total douche. His behavior is pretty indicative of someone going on the offensive to counteract lots of very valid criticism. Easier to pretend you're just being attacked and attack back than address why you're simply a thief.
Unlike the JMal Dwimmermount, this one is Duke Nukem Forever. Even if it does come out, it'll probably suck.
GMS has done many weird and offensive things, like attacking Evil Hat for giving KS a bad name. This was from the guy who has done more to harm KS for RPG creators than just about anyone.
Quote from: Saplatt;857377It does seem to me that this whole mess has probably damaged his reputation in the industry. And that's going to be hard to restore.
I thought his reputation was for "being a prick".
Then again, if he hadn't been a douche nozzle to me in the past, I might have backed this project and lost money. So, now that I think of it: thanks, Gareth!
Therin lies the problem.
At face value it seems like a game designer got sick and the game was delayed. Sympahy is appropriate.
But only so far. He has been stalling and scamming people for four years before he got sick. Possibly longer.
On the other hand he has, and still is treating customers like dirt. So to those who have been on the receiving end it can end up being seen as karma nailing him.
And then you feel bad about feeling good that something bad happened to him.
Then will come the next project "which is 99% done and here give me some money!" And people will. And the cycle continues.
Failed Kickstarters are an interesting subject to me since I've put in for over a dozen projects, and the closest thing to a no deliver is Exalted 3e, and that will be more late and disappointing than failed.
I think that the correlation between game projects, failures, and sudden serious illness disturbing, but so far, some stuff's been late, but never let down.
Is it because the majority of the projects I've backed are NOT game related?
Quote from: Bobloblah;857398:rotfl:
That there is some serious understatement. For anyone who is familiar with what has happened, he has utterly destroyed his reputation, possibly beyond repair.
Sadly, that doesn't mean much in this industry. Folks have burned bridges as they've fled the industry, and then crept back in to rejoin it without that much trouble.
True. We'll see, I guess.
I really enjoyed Hong Kong Action Theater. I feel bad for GMS' illness, but illness is no excuse to be a dick to your backers.
Being late is less important than being realistic, friendly, and apologetic with your backers.
When I launch my KS, I am adding at least 6 months to my assumed delivery date. I'd rather tell people its coming in 12 months than have it arrive in 11 months after I promised it would arrive in 6.
Quote from: JamesV;857748Is it because the majority of the projects I've backed are NOT game related?
I've backed somewhere north of 50 projects, most of them gaming related, and only two disappointments. I expect I'll eventually get something from the Appendix N kickstarter, eventually, but the shipping rate is ridiculous. And it seems he may have shipped to some folks twice, and think he's shipped to someone he hasn't, due to poor record keeping.
The other disappointment is City State of the Invincible Overlord. James Mishler has essentially lost interest in the project and abandoned it, with Bob and Bob and others taking up the slack. Hopefully, as with Dwimmermount, something good comes of this.
Quote from: JamesV;857748I think that the correlation between game projects, failures, and sudden serious illness disturbing, but so far, some stuff's been late, but never let down.
Is it because the majority of the projects I've backed are NOT game related?
What I've noticed is that at least half the time the "illness" comes some time after the KS. Think about it. How many people go two, three, four years without getting sick, or seriously sick. Especially when probably holding down a job at the same time? The longer the delay, the more likely "I got sick!" will come up.
And also the more likely to see a "I got sick and had to use up all the funding! No game!" as a sympathy scam just before the villagers gather the pitchforks and torches.
Backers patience is wearing gradually thinner and thinner for this over-used excuse. And few people have any patience for "I was sick! Game delayed" when the person had years of stalling and excuses up to that.
Maybe there's a parasite that targets game designers specifically, kickstartus nurglesi.
Quote from: Saplatt;857309Nor me.
From what little I know, the guy has had some difficult health problems and I wish him the best on that.
Health problems are bad, but let's be honest it only accounts for a small part of the 4 years. There is really no excuse.
I have never funded a kickstarter and this doesn't give me much confidence on them in general
Quote from: Nastasha;857837Health problems are bad, but let's be honest it only accounts for a small part of the 4 years. There is really no excuse.
I have never funded a kickstarter and this doesn't give me much confidence on them in general
Most deliver. Often late. But they deliver.
The ones that dont. Those tend to go down either spectacularly, or with a wimper. Remember. Most of these are amatures with no idea what really goes into production till too late.
There is a reason why people sell games to publishers instead of self publishing.
Quote from: Nastasha;857837I have never funded a kickstarter and this doesn't give me much confidence on them in general
Welcome to the RPGsite Natasha!
What I really like about KS is there are plenty of forums to discuss projects and many bloggers who get early drafts and playtests so you can often get a good sense of what is being proposed and by whom.
I'm a big Conan fan and when the Conan boardgame KS was launched, I was able to watch actual play videos (too damn long, but useful) to see how the game played via the prototypes.
Also, some RPG KS projects are mostly looking for cash for art and they already have a beta PDF to share as soon as you pledge.
I have not yet pledged for a "I have a dream" style KS where the creator is looking for money before doing substantial work and I doubt I would support those unless the creator had a sterling track record.
But if Kevin Crawford of Sine Nomine started a KS for "Mystery RPG supplement" and wanted $10 for a PDF that he could not tell us about until it was done, I would absolutely give him $10 because I have greatly enjoyed everything I've bought from him.
Quote from: Nastasha;857837Health problems are bad, but let's be honest it only accounts for a small part of the 4 years. There is really no excuse.
I have never funded a kickstarter and this doesn't give me much confidence on them in general
Welcome to the site.
I'm with you. I just can't bring myself to back KS's. It feels too much like buying a pig in a poke.
there IS a reason that the writers of the Andorian source book for the Last Unicorn Star Trek RPG had his last name translate to "this person is feeble-minded" :p
I have no doubt that a lot of people doing Kickstarters may really have health problems or other personal crises that emerge unexpectedly and sidetrack the whole project.
But to me this is just why it is so important that you pretty much have your writing done BEFORE you start the KS.
Quote from: RPGPundit;858300I have no doubt that a lot of people doing Kickstarters may really have health problems or other personal crises that emerge unexpectedly and sidetrack the whole project.
But to me this is just why it is so important that you pretty much have your writing done BEFORE you start the KS.
I'd be hard pressed to disagree. Those tend to be the betters KSes.
I just received my digital rewards for Art of the Genre's The Folio #4. Scott Taylor runs his Kickstarters crazy well that I see. They may not be the biggest or baddest, but damn does that guy deliver ... and it's clearly how he manages his process, writing and production in advance.
Quote from: Omega;857842Most deliver. Often late. But they deliver.
The ones that dont. Those tend to go down either spectacularly, or with a wimper. Remember. Most of these are amatures with no idea what really goes into production till too late.
There is a reason why people sell games to publishers instead of self publishing.
This may be true, but I can wait until something is printed and available to buy it. I don't need to spend money on something on a chance it will get done.
Not to mention I don't have a lot of money to begin with so I have to be careful
Quote from: Spinachcat;857851Welcome to the RPGsite Natasha!
Thank You
Quote from: Spinachcat;857851What I really like about KS is there are plenty of forums to discuss projects and many bloggers who get early drafts and playtests so you can often get a good sense of what is being proposed and by whom.
I'm a big Conan fan and when the Conan boardgame KS was launched, I was able to watch actual play videos (too damn long, but useful) to see how the game played via the prototypes.
Also, some RPG KS projects are mostly looking for cash for art and they already have a beta PDF to share as soon as you pledge.
I have not yet pledged for a "I have a dream" style KS where the creator is looking for money before doing substantial work and I doubt I would support those unless the creator had a sterling track record.
But if Kevin Crawford of Sine Nomine started a KS for "Mystery RPG supplement" and wanted $10 for a PDF that he could not tell us about until it was done, I would absolutely give him $10 because I have greatly enjoyed everything I've bought from him.
If a kickstarter has been written and just needs art and playtesting then maybe I would kick money in. But if they haven't started the writing and need money to do the writing (IE they don't have a day job and need the money to survive) then no thank you, I will wait until it is done (If it gets done)
Quote from: Nexus;857854Welcome to the site.
I'm with you. I just can't bring myself to back KS's. It feels too much like buying a pig in a poke.
Thank you for the welcome. If they haven't even bothered to start the writing then that's a bad start for the project and I can just wait.
Thank you for the nice welcome
Quote from: Natasha;858390If they haven't even bothered to start the writing then that's a bad start for the project and I can just wait.
Which I think is a legit guideline for KS picking. In his post Spinachcat is giving Crawford and Sine Nomine the benefit of the doubt because Crawford's track record has earned it.
Then again, Crawford's track record was set by having the text already written when the KS is pitched. As others have described, you get the beta text as soon as you back the project for at the most some crowdsourced proofreading. Not sure if he ever would try to pitch a book that wasn't that far yet.
I can see how crowdfunding is not everyone's thing, but it's been a cool and overall positive experience for me, at least until Exalted 3e comes in. :P
Quote from: Natasha;858389If a kickstarter has been written and just needs art and playtesting then maybe I would kick money in. But if they haven't started the writing and need money to do the writing (IE they don't have a day job and need the money to survive) then no thank you, I will wait until it is done (If it gets done)
Never back anything associated with Game Salute. Their battle cry is "Going to the printers soon! - Working in it! - Going to the printers soon! - Working in it!" for
YEARS...
More games are now offering a preview or PNP demo during or before the KS goes up. Those tend to fare better.
I helped run and manage the Kickstarter for Interface Zero 2.0 for Gun Metal Games.
The book wasn't complete by the time the Kickstarter was over, but we made sure a good portion of the ground work was done before we started. The Book came out late, but it was 2 months late...as opposed to well....3+ years.
These days if I ever ended up participating in a Kickstarter again, I'd want to make sure the rough of the product was done right away before I put the KS up.
Interface Zero is a badass game, so is Totems of the Dead. Not sure about the Pathfinder version though. Do you know if the new hacking rules for the PF version will be useful in other systems, or is it the same process, just turned to d20 mechanics.
Back on topic... I'm a backer of this game. Skarka can be an asshole, so can I. I think RP game designers are a little too cliquey, the circle a little too much of an echo chamber. Networking is one thing, groupthink is another. Skarka's behavior in pissing everyone off doesn't interest me.
I gave Far West a chance figuring it might take a long time to come out, or never. I always saw Kickstarter as being kind of a Patron/Artist or VC/Inventor relationship. There's risk. You don't want the risk, don't pledge. If that's not your mom's credit card in your hand, then think before you use it, and accept the result.
Skarka may or may not have run this thing like a total cluster and the stress and pressure of it may or may not have contributed to the delay, who knows. I kind of tuned out to wait for this one, which reminds me I have to contact Skarka I think they did release some of the short stories or artbook or something.
All I know is pointing to JMal and Skarka as proof that KS isn't worth it is asinine. Reaper, Goodman, Sine Nomine, Jerry Grayson, all have run great KS projects.
Quote from: CRKrueger;858466Interface Zero is a badass game, so is Totems of the Dead. Not sure about the Pathfinder version though. Do you know if the new hacking rules for the PF version will be useful in other systems, or is it the same process, just turned to d20 mechanics.
I'm not involved with the pathfinder version, it's something Dave Jarvis (owner of Gun Metal Games) has wanted to do for awhile. There was also some talk of Totems of the Dead going to Pathfinder which I totally support because that game DESERVES to reach a bigger audience.
I am however currently writing the Stopwatch's 10 most wanted sourcebook for IZ. It'll give some more details on the paramilitary group whose dedicated to tackling potentially catastrophic threats and will detail groups and individuals capable of making those threats.
Agreed, for the most part. In spite of stories about GMS, I've backed a number of successful Kickstarters. Some have been late, and some I'm still waiting for. Where I disagree is with any notion that because Kickstarter is risky, people who've been stiffed should just suck it up. It doesn't matter if you see it as giving away money on patronage, that's not quite the nature of the legal relationship between the person running the campaign and the backers. Hopefully, legal action in Washington state sets a precedent.
Quote from: Bobloblah;858472Agreed, for the most part. In spite of stories about GMS, I've backed a number of successful Kickstarters. Some have been late, and some I'm still waiting for. Where I disagree is with any notion that because Kickstarter is risky, people who've been stiffed should just suck it up. It doesn't matter if you see it as giving away money on patronage, that's not quite the nature of the legal relationship between the person running the campaign and the backers. Hopefully, legal action in Washington state sets a precedent.
Sure, someone wants to sue Skarka, sue Skarka. Saying KS itself though is risky because it mostly works as intended though, is silly. People and money will fuck up everything, including KS, but not every campaign.
Agreed. The current lawsuit is nothing to do with GMS.
Quote from: Bobloblah;858472Agreed, for the most part. In spite of stories about GMS, I've backed a number of successful Kickstarters. Some have been late, and some I'm still waiting for. Where I disagree is with any notion that because Kickstarter is risky, people who've been stiffed should just suck it up. It doesn't matter if you see it as giving away money on patronage, that's not quite the nature of the legal relationship between the person running the campaign and the backers. Hopefully, legal action in Washington state sets a precedent.
Yeah, backing kickstarters isn't for everyone, but the bad apples are only a few in each buchel. (Well, aside from the obvious ones, like the "Give me $100,000 to create this new console that I have designed with crayon drawings." But those are usually easy to avoid. :)
I've gotten some really cool stuff. I'm looking forward to playing this Epic card game here. I haven't had a chance yet, but I want to read through the Deadlands book I backed recently, and before that I had a great time at the recent con playing East Texas University.
I've also got some neat non-game stuff. I haven't opened it yet, but I got a graphic novel from Gene Ha last week. I've also gotten some neat fairy pictures from one artist, and supported a couple of musical albums from a few others, and have backed a few children's books.
It's totally true - if you don't have the money to spend and not see what you're getting for a while, then you definitely shouldn't back any kickstarters. It's an extravagance.
But on the other hand, I've given about $230 off to Cool Mini or Not for the Zombicide: Black Plague kickstarter, and in return sometime early next year I'll get a fun game and a ton of plastic bits that I'm looking forward to learning how to play with and paint. Along with dozens of other things I'm looking forward to getting in the mail sometime in the next year. :)
Quote from: Bobloblah;858490Agreed. The current lawsuit is nothing to do with GMS.
It hasnt gotten to lawsuit level yet. Backers have had to go to state attorney and force a refund. The designer apparently declared that no one else is getting a refund unless they go through the state attorney too? Missed this so I am dubious he actually said something that asinine.
Compared to other KS meltdowns this has been fairly mild.
Last year some comic writer flipped out when people complained about the lateness and publically burned copies of the book and threatened to burn more if anyone else complained. The dinosaur game where the designer flipped out and force canceled and refunded backers who spoke out about the un-announced changes in the game and product.
These are rare compared to KS games that succeed. Yes, many are late. But so are real publishers. FFG is notorious for being unable to meet their own release times for example.
Lots of good stuff to back on KS. A few months ago there was a new type of 3d printer that looked really interesting. But unfortunately funds were not availible. If Gamezone actually gets HeroQuest out and follows through I will be sorely tempted to back their Space Crusade game.
There also alot of smaller KS that look promising. See the recent KS thread here for a few examples.
Quote from: Omega;858577It hasnt gotten to lawsuit level yet..
I wasn't talking about GMS when I referred to legal precedent: see here (http://theamericangenius.com/business-news/kickstarter-project-sued-in-landmark-case-for-not-delivering-begins-delivering/)
Another of my Kickstarters just delivered today. Again not an RPG, but fulfillment is fulfillment.
As far as GMS and Far West are concerned, I'd be very interested in what T.S. Luikhart (sp?) and Adamant had to say about the lack of involvement after previously being involved.
Regardless, I deeply regret a friend of mine kicked in on this project. However, his backing of several Monte Cook Kickstarters has gone very well, so there is at least that.
So has Far West come out yet? Was it worth the wait?
Quote from: Saplatt;879867So has Far West come out yet? Was it worth the wait?
Of course it hasn't come out yet.
I rather doubt it ever will.
Its a endless series of "Life Event happened, so Far West is delayed". As time goes on, more Life Events happen, predictably.
Least this is not as bad as one person I was commissioning art from way back for a project that culminated in this gem.
Art delayed a month.
Reason: Its February and Valentines Day makes him sad.
Quote from: Omega;879875Least this is not as bad as one person I was commissioning art from way back for a project that culminated in this gem.
Art delayed a month.
Reason: Its February and Valentines Day makes him sad.
I think things are a lot worse than that :)
Quote from: Skywalker;879876I think things are a lot worse than that :)
If only you knew...
Game delayed:
Reason: The Sun was angry today.
And thats one of the more sane examples. :eek:
Quote from: Omega;879881If only you knew...
Game delayed:
Reason: The Sun was angry today.
And thats one of the more sane examples. :eek:
Game delayed:
January 2014: PDF 24 hours from release, but delayed as employee couldn't get to office due to a flooding.
January 2016: PDF still not released.
Quote from: Skywalker;879886Game delayed:
January 2014: PDF 24 hours from release, but delayed as employee couldn't get to office due to a flooding.
January 2016: PDF still not released.
Dude, you have to wait for flood waters to recede. :D
Look at it this way - maybe we'll finally get the Duke Nukem of RPGs?
Quote from: CRKrueger;879892Dude, you have to wait for flood waters to recede. :D
Well, the project does seem to be all wet. :)
Quote from: CRKrueger;879892Dude, you have to wait for flood waters to recede. :D
It sounds like yet another tragic consequence of global warming.
Quote from: CRKrueger;879892Dude, you have to wait for flood waters to recede. :D
The funniest thing was when the said employees all confirmed they were back at work and had no idea what GMS was talking about.
Quote from: jcfiala;858496Yeah, backing kickstarters isn't for everyone, but the bad apples are only a few in each buchel. (Well, aside from the obvious ones, like the "Give me $100,000 to create this new console that I have designed with crayon drawings." But those are usually easy to avoid. :)
I backed a crayon-drawing FPS after the sales-pitch video had me in hysterics. He wanted $100,000; I decided my $50 was safe and, if he managed to get $100k, he deserved it.
Ended with $70.
Quote from: Skywalker;879886Game delayed:
January 2014: PDF 24 hours from release, but delayed as employee couldn't get to office due to a flooding.
January 2016: PDF still not released.
Yeah I'm still waiting for some stuff to ship from Atlantis. :cool:
Quote from: Omega;879912Yeah I'm still waiting for some stuff to ship from Atlantis. :cool:
Wow. Really? I got all my stuff years ago. What are you waiting on? Did you contact Jerry?
Quote from: rawma;879900It sounds like yet another tragic consequence of global warming.
Consequence...or perk?
So did Buckaroo Banzai ever come out? I preordered it back in 2011 or 2012 (don't even remember anymore) and was told the game was with the licensor for approvals in 2012, which I'm assuming was an outright fabrication as I eventually demanded and received my money back in the form of a personal check from Mr. Skarka in late 2015 and the game was supposedly still undergoing approvals...
Quote from: Matt;880468So did Buckaroo Banzai ever come out? I preordered it back in 2011 or 2012 (don't even remember anymore) and was told the game was with the licensor for approvals in 2012, which I'm assuming was an outright fabrication as I eventually demanded and received my money back in the form of a personal check from Mr. Skarka in late 2015 and the game was supposedly still undergoing approvals...
He said about 6 months ago that he would devote his energies 100% to getting Buckaroo Banzai out, once Far West was out (which was imminent).
Quote from: Skywalker;880493He said about 6 months ago that he would devote his energies 100% to getting Buckaroo Banzai out, once Far West was out (which was imminent).
So pigs will fly, hell will freeze, then Far West comes out, then Buckaroo Banzai. Okay then.
Quote from: Matt;880502So pigs will fly, hell will freeze, then Far West comes out, then Buckaroo Banzai. Okay then.
No, it's the heat death of the universe, then Buckaroo Banzai then Far West.
Seriously, the guy should really just put SOMETHING out.
He does! Smoke Screens and the RPG equivalent of VapourWare.
Oh but as noted elsewhere. He has time to work on Doctor Who RPG product as of 2015.
Quote from: Omega;880543Oh but as noted elsewhere. He has time to work on Doctor Who RPG product as of 2015.
I'm surprised anyone would actually consider hiring him.
On the one hand, he might be able to work to a deadline if an actual company is taking responsibility for chasing him up, and due to his failure to release anything he probably needs the money. Give him something non-critical to do which you could assign to someone else if he misses a hard deadline and it's a cheap, quick way to get some name recognition on your product.
On the other hand, who wants his name on their products at this point? He's pretty much destroyed what goodwill he has left.
I'm still waiting for my ICONS Team-Up hardcopy that I pre-ordered back around 2011. I mean, not really, as it has no chance of ever appearing, but still.
Excuses aside, this is a matter of poor planning on Gareth-Michael Skarka's part: http://www.isfarwestoutyet.com/
In my opinion, the entire work should already be written before it's ever presented for public backing. This is precisely why I have waited to put ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG (http://warhammerfantasyroleplay.com) up on Kickstarter.
People need to learn how to run a proper Kickstarter. Don't run it like a hobby or a side project, treat it like a business. Set the expectation with backers out the gate by laying out risks and challenges. Have a back-up plan in case of disaster. Don't make empty promises. And never, ever ask for money for a product without a completed first draft that's been properly playtested.
Heres his RPGG bio as a designer. A list of excuses I assume for Far West.
QuoteA Partial List of Release Dates
December 2011
January 2012
March 2012 (Print and PDF)
March 2012 (PDF only)
April 2012 (PDF to be followed by Print)
May 2012 (PDF)
June 2012 (Print Map)
August 31, 2012 (PDF followed by Print in September 2012)
September 2012 (PDF)
November 2012 (Print - with PDF delivered before that)
Summer 2013 (Print and PDF)
End of Summer 2013 (Print and PDF)
End of Summer 2013 (PDF only)
Mid-November 2013 (PDF with delivery to printer the same day - "our actual, Honest-to-Seven-Hells, no-foolin delivery")
November 23 2013 (PDF with 2-week delay for printer)
November 27 2013 (PDF with 2-week delay for printer)
December 1 2013 (PDF and delivery to printer at same time)
January 2014
August 2014
Early-mid November 2014
By Thanksgiving 2014
Sometime in December 2014
Definitely December 17 2014, plus PDF preorders are opened on DTRPG
January 2015
By the end of May 2015
The first week of June 2015
The genre doesn't interest me so I didn't back the game and haven't been following but has he produced any actual text or anything to indicate that there even is/was a game to back? Seems like I could write an RPG in a couple of months if I really had to (not that it would be anything you'd want to play) so what's the rationale for producing nothing in 5 years? Was one provided?
Leave business acumen out of this - the man has sold Brooklyn Bridge twice, to the same people. That takes a lot of financial chutzpah.
Quote from: Matt;880606The genre doesn't interest me so I didn't back the game and haven't been following but has he produced any actual text or anything to indicate that there even is/was a game to back? Seems like I could write an RPG in a couple of months if I really had to (not that it would be anything you'd want to play) so what's the rationale for producing nothing in 5 years? Was one provided?
The backers (including me) have gotten a pdf containing chapters 1-8. Here's how it's been dribbled out to us:
August 5, 2015 - chapters 1-8
Jun 2, 2015 - Chapter 7
January 9, 2015 - Chapter 6
January 16, 2014 - Chapters 1-5
Chapter 9 has the game system, god help us all. 10-12 are GM stuff and world stuff.
Quote from: jcfiala;880636The backers (including me) have gotten a pdf containing chapters 1-8. Here's how it's been dribbled out to us:
August 5, 2015 - chapters 1-8
Jun 2, 2015 - Chapter 7
January 9, 2015 - Chapter 6
January 16, 2014 - Chapters 1-5
Chapter 9 has the game system, god help us all. 10-12 are GM stuff and world stuff.
I'm a backer. (See my user portrait? Exactly.) I must have missed that. Where can I go to DL mine?
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;880650I'm a backer. (See my user portrait? Exactly.) I must have missed that. Where can I go to DL mine?
As I said, it's the August 5th update. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/Adamant/far-west-western-wuxia-mashup-adventure-game/posts/1315094 is the direct link.
Quote from: jcfiala;880636The backers (including me) have gotten a pdf containing chapters 1-8. Here's how it's been dribbled out to us:
August 5, 2015 - chapters 1-8
Jun 2, 2015 - Chapter 7
January 9, 2015 - Chapter 6
January 16, 2014 - Chapters 1-5
Chapter 9 has the game system, god help us all. 10-12 are GM stuff and world stuff.
So half a year later and still nada? Just the story stuff?
Quote from: Omega;880810So half a year later and still nada? Just the story stuff?
That's right! After six weeks of work, including a month he didn't have to work at his 'day job' in December, he hasn't been able to produce any more chapters for us.
I really think he's screwed the pooch, myself. I used to think he was just really slow in getting things done, but by this point I think the high pressure of this project might kill him. He keeps trying to make it perfect, and yet he knows deep down it isn't perfect, and so he just spends more and more time trying to work on it and not getting things done.
And in the meantime it's blocking any other work he might try to do - he can't finish Buckaroo Banzai (which at this point would probably provide a useful infusion of cash if he could get that done (although not via a kickstarter :)), he doesn't have the time to whip up quick 5th edition work (which again, is where the money is at the moment), and although I suspect he's doing a little work for other companies as a writer, he can't really sign up to do an entire book for company Y if he still hasn't been able to finish Far West.
Probably what's really best for him and the company is giving up, putting the manuscript aside, declaring bankruptcy if he has to, and moving on to other projects. But I doubt he will.
(Disclosure: I'm a $10 (pdf) backer of the kickstarter, but it doesn't bother me if I don't end up getting a complete game at this point.)
Though I owe GMS less than nothing, I really wish he would just give up or give away Far West at this point. Its never going to recover as a product and the harm it seems to be causing him is tragic to behold.
Quote from: Skywalker;880862Though I owe GMS less than nothing, I really wish he would just give up or give away Far West at this point. Its never going to recover as a product and the harm it seems to be causing him is tragic to behold.
What harm? He's still getting work.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;880883What harm? He's still getting work.
I am only going by observation but it seems to me that GMS suffers from some form of depression which is also likely to be a contributing factor to his inability to get work done. He also seems to have problems with interaction of social media that borders on addiction. Finally, he seems to suffer from continual physical ailments that stress no doubt contributes to.
Personally, I would like to see Far West simply disappear from the interwebs and think GMS would be better of for it too.
I think if only he could get some time management tips from James Maliszewski, everything would work out just wonderfully.
Quote from: Matt;880900I think if only he could get some time management tips from James Maliszewski, everything would work out just wonderfully.
Maybe he could sell the project to Autarch. Mr Macris, at least, has proven he can resuscitate a failed project and bring it to fruition.
Hey Warpig, looked at your blog. Calvin and Muad'dib is one of the greatest sites in existence.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;880977Maybe he could sell the project to Autarch. Mr Macris, at last, has proven he can resuscitate a failed project and bring it to fruition.
Why should someone else have to bail out a guy whos stalled not for months, but
YEARS?
This is not like the Doom that came to Atlantic City incident where the designer and artist were effectively ripped off by the publisher and Cryptozoic stepped in and helped them out.
Quote from: CRKrueger;880989Hey Warpig, looked at your blog.
Thanks for stopping by!
Quote from: CRKrueger;880989Calvin and Muad'dib is one of the greatest sites in existence.
It really is. : )
Quote from: Omega;881044Why should someone else have to bail out a guy whos stalled not for months, but YEARS?
Easy there. It was a joke, a sarcastic comment which contrasted the proven track record of a company who can deliver on plans and an individual who has had 6 years to do so, but utterly failed.
Nobody's saying Autarch HAS to do anything.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;880977Maybe he could sell the project to Autarch. Mr Macris, at last, has proven he can resuscitate a failed project and bring it to fruition.
Yes, he did, but at this point I think GMS would need to pay Autarch, not the other way around.
How one Kickstarter f**kup made good on thousands of botched orders for razors, in just one year: How My Kickstarter Blew Up My Life (http://venturebeat.com/2016/03/13/how-my-kickstarter-blew-up-my-life/)
GMS could maybe learn a lesson from this guy.
Thank you Daddy Warpig! That was a great article.
Quote from: Daddy Warpig;886268How one Kickstarter f**kup made good on thousands of botched orders for razors, in just one year: How My Kickstarter Blew Up My Life (http://venturebeat.com/2016/03/13/how-my-kickstarter-blew-up-my-life/)
GMS could maybe learn a lesson from this guy.
First it would mean that GMS has to admit to doing it wrong.
Quote from: Spinachcat;886453Thank you Daddy Warpig! That was a great article.
Thank you, sir! : )
I think by now he'd learn more from tutorial on filling out Chapter 7.
Very interesting article.