This is an offshoot of the little know games thread as something I've been interested in (especially after seeing it in HPB two weeks ago): how hard is it to convert 3.x material to FantasyCraft? Are there enough tools in the toolkit to make something inspired by other material that fits a similar power level/purpose straight forward? Can any be used straight out of the book, especially monsters and magic items? How about spells?
Quote from: PulpHerb on January 03, 2023, 12:07:04 PM
This is an offshoot of the little know games thread as something I've been interested in (especially after seeing it in HPB two weeks ago): how hard is it to convert 3.x material to FantasyCraft? Are there enough tools in the toolkit to make something inspired by other material that fits a similar power level/purpose straight forward? Can any be used straight out of the book, especially monsters and magic items? How about spells?
As the Resident Fantasycraft Apologist here...
1) It's not hard *at all* to convert 3.x material to Fantasycraft. The rules to do so are in the book on page 295.
2) The ability to create your own content can be done, they used to have a chart on their forums for point values etc. Not sure if it's still there. But yes, you could create literally anything in 3.x and probably a lot more and it would run perfectly fine in FC.
3) Spells are differentish, monsters are *better*. In FC the monsters you know and love are a *LOT* more dynamic. And they use tables to both scale offensive and defensive capabilities on the fly as needed. You don't have to worry about CR (which was a bullshit system anyhow). This type of scaling can make literal 1hd Goblins into 20hd POWERHOUSES literally between rounds if you needed to, with zero effort. It's designed to let you make monsters as needed with their stat-blocs always right in front of you based on your needs on a sliding chart of numbers. This sounds crazy, I know... but it's an amazing GM tool and piece of 3.x design.
Spells - are different in the sense they're scaling powers that have modifiers based on how you want to cast them. Effectively 95% of the spells you know in D&D are in there... but no all of them. You could make them up if you need to, but it depends on what you want from magic. If you're looking for all the weird arcane shit in the furthest reaches of some obscure 3rd party book... you'll probably have to wing it. If you're trying to get to Spells as effects - you're 90% there.
I HIGHLY recommend the core book obviously, but you should also get the Adventurer's Companion which is material they couldn't fit into the Core book.
Thanks...you were my first thought on getting an answer.
Given your Talislanta love, have you used FantasyCraft there?
FantasyCraft IS the toolkit d20 fantasy rpg. It's chock full of so many bells and whistles that with this book and the Adventure Companion book it does more than 30 D&D 3.5 books. It's crazy good how deep the game can be. And that's also why it wasn't very popular. Most people, wanting things laid out and handed to them, don't want to put in any effort to learn and make use of all the tools.
It's polar opposite D&D with regards to magic. FC has 1 magic using class and one that has the option but isn't required. It has classes that focus on non combat roles. It has classes that are strong combat focused, but none as basic as a simple Fighter.
It has really cool Species. It uses species because your options are truly different species. You got your normal Humans, dwarves and elves, but it also has Drake's, Tree people, lizardfolk, constructs, and ogres as species options. Drake's can fly. All at level 1.
Then it has Species Feats that let you build any kind of subspecies options.
This game has phenomenal depth.
Nope. I thought about it at one time... but frankly I tend to like to go from complex to simpler.
And the Talislanta system doesn't need more complexity. It just needs a couple of tune-ups. I still think it's one of the best systems out there. At one point they made a setting neutral version of it, the OMNI System. It never got traction which was a real shame.
If ANYTHING - the only system I'd translate Talislanta into would be Savage Worlds.
Fantasycraft, to me, is the ultimate D&D Heartbreaker. It was the system I felt should have been 4e.
Quote from: RebelSky on January 03, 2023, 04:18:09 PM
FantasyCraft IS the toolkit d20 fantasy rpg. It's chock full of so many bells and whistles that with this book and the Adventure Companion book it does more than 30 D&D 3.5 books. It's crazy good how deep the game can be. And that's also why it wasn't very popular. Most people, wanting things laid out and handed to them, don't want to put in any effort to learn and make use of all the tools.
It's polar opposite D&D with regards to magic. FC has 1 magic using class and one that has the option but isn't required. It has classes that focus on non combat roles. It has classes that are strong combat focused, but none as basic as a simple Fighter.
It has really cool Species. It uses species because your options are truly different species. You got your normal Humans, dwarves and elves, but it also has Drake's, Tree people, lizardfolk, constructs, and ogres as species options. Drake's can fly. All at level 1.
Then it has Species Feats that let you build any kind of subspecies options.
This game has phenomenal depth.
TRUTH shines.
Quote from: tenbones on January 03, 2023, 04:19:15 PM
At one point they made a setting neutral version of it, the OMNI System. It never got traction which was a real shame.
I lost my pdf of Omni. Is it on drive-thru?
I wish there was a retroclone/online srd.
Does Hellas use it? Looks like it. Are there differences?
Edit: $6 on drive-thru.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/m/product/2862
How well balanced is it? Fantasycraft I mean. That's just always been a D&D 3e issue.
Also how complex does it make making high level monsters & such?
I had a lot of fun reading FC. Even bought some of the DLCs new class packs. Never ran it though I would like to someday.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 03, 2023, 09:58:35 PM
How well balanced is it? Fantasycraft I mean. That's just always been a D&D 3e issue.
Also how complex does it make making high level monsters & such?
It is *shockingly* balanced. It's like every stat, derived stat, and sub-system is balanced against themselves for he purposes of dealing with narrative assumptions of D&D style fantasy.
They *really* went deep with it. Every stat matters. So while you could dumpstat your character, it would hurt you in other areas a
lot. Feats are hugely beefed up. No Feat Trees are more than three-deep. ALL Feats are good. Seriously, you can't go wrong. And they're designed to make combat and social play effective rather than piecemealing abilities to you that your concept should already have.
Vitality(HP)/Health - means that certain attacks can bypass "HP" altogether. Crits, Backstab etc. This mean non-casters are *dangerous*.
I could go on and on... the whole purpose of Fantasycraft was to create an actual toolkit that was balanced against itself. It's a marvelous piece of design. I highly recommend anyone remotely interested in d20 (and especially 3.x in ANY way, shape, or form) to pick up the PDF. Don't forget the Adventurer's Companion.
You can also Search this forum for Fantasycraft - I've talked about the game a *lot* in several dedicated threads. But I'm always happy to answer any questions with what I know.
Quote from: tenbones on January 04, 2023, 10:37:27 AMYou can also Search this forum for Fantasycraft - I've talked about the game a *lot* in several dedicated threads. But I'm always happy to answer any questions with what I know.
How does it handle prepwork? Another issue of 3e is thst prepwork inflates for a gm too fast. And that high level characters are just generally overpowered overall.
There's no doubt in my mind that FC is one of the best D20 games ever created. I've never played it, but I did play it's predecessor, Spycraft. But I took one look at Spycraft 2.0 and abandoned ship. It's the same thing that holds me back from FC-- it's just too much. I wish there was a Lite version.
Did a quick skim of FC tonight. It's not as heavy as I thought. It looks that way at first, until you realize it's a player's and GM's book combined.
Next time I want to run fantasy I'm going to give it a spin.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 04, 2023, 10:50:54 AM
Quote from: tenbones on January 04, 2023, 10:37:27 AMYou can also Search this forum for Fantasycraft - I've talked about the game a *lot* in several dedicated threads. But I'm always happy to answer any questions with what I know.
How does it handle prepwork? Another issue of 3e is thst prepwork inflates for a gm too fast. And that high level characters are just generally overpowered overall.
Depends on what you mean by "prepwork". For me, I do sandboxes, so I've done 90% of the work, by my standards, ahead of time. Most of the prep between my games is filling in potential material ahead of the PC's based on where they were going or what they were doing when we stopped the last session.
So for me this means only making sure NPC statblocs are up to date, making sure any maps are ready. And detailing locales with specificity as needed.
As a toolkit, you definitely have to have your setting-specifics in stone. But for making monsters, Magic items, etc? Once you do it a couple of times it's a piece of cake. You can even do it on the fly. Highlevel play shouldn't be too much of a problem because combat can be as lethal as needed with very little effort. Monsters can scale ridiculously easy.
For instance - if you Goblins are 1hd creatures, and you want them to be 10hd creatures, there is a literal table where they give you ALL the attack and defense bonuses of a creature based on that HD. All you have to do is skin it in your description. Sound vanilla? Give it some Feats (the monsters have their own Feats and special abilities). You can do this on the fly at will with zero effort.
Suddenly those high-level players run into your mutant Goblins that have been eating Black Dragon Gamma-irradiated Spleencakes, and start dunking on those PC's and giving them the asswhooping of their lives.
My general answer is "Once you get used to the basic differences between D&D and FC - and while basic, they're significant in their *expression in play* - then your normal preptime should be a lot easier than in D&D. This is my general perception.
Quote from: Aglondir on January 04, 2023, 04:33:12 PM
There's no doubt in my mind that FC is one of the best D20 games ever created. I've never played it, but I did play it's predecessor, Spycraft. But I took one look at Spycraft 2.0 and abandoned ship. It's the same thing that holds me back from FC-- it's just too much. I wish there was a Lite version.
FantasyCraft is the Lite version of the same basic system in Spycraft 2.0.
Quote from: tenbones on January 05, 2023, 01:15:07 AMDepends on what you mean by "prepwork".
Monsters (3e monsters are notoriously hard to run) and I guess also player expectations. 3e just makes players too powerful in the tools it expects them to have, even outside of combat.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on January 05, 2023, 11:36:17 AM
Quote from: tenbones on January 05, 2023, 01:15:07 AMDepends on what you mean by "prepwork".
Monsters (3e monsters are notoriously hard to run) and I guess also player expectations. 3e just makes players too powerful in the tools it expects them to have, even outside of combat.
The Alexandrian did a good post (and some follow-ups) on applying 4e style to 3e stat blocks, arguing that fixed a lot of the 3e issue:
https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2724/roleplaying-games/does-format-matter-a-response
Quote from: tenbones on January 03, 2023, 02:17:19 PM
1) It's not hard *at all* to convert 3.x material to Fantasycraft. The rules to do so are in the book on page 295.
2) The ability to create your own content can be done, they used to have a chart on their forums for point values etc. Not sure if it's still there. But yes, you could create literally anything in 3.x and probably a lot more and it would run perfectly fine in FC.
Sadly, that chart is gone.
What about designing expert and master classes (which look closer to what prestige classes were originally supposed to be) as well as PC races? Easy enough to balance (especially if I can find said chart)?
Looks like someone recreated the Origins system.
http://sletchweb.wikidot.com/fc-origin-creation
Why does this thread get made every couple years, forcing me to dig out my FC and Spycraft books? Only this time in my massive, massive purge/dump of literally several hundred books last year, I seem to have finally gotten rid of those...
HAHAHAHAH I did the same thing! When I started looking for the FantasyCraft Database which had all the creation tables in it - I kept running across forum posts I made over a decade ago.
Now I'm sitting here- supposed to be in my post-Yoga shower, reading my FantasyCraft book like a dummy... and loving every minute of it.
Edit: SADLY I can't find the Database anywhere. My heart breaks a little. So much greatness in there. I need to find the guys that made it. Crafty doesn't even seem to maintain a forum anymore.
Okay I my Googlefu is on point... I may have found it...
These are the templates for creating Classes, Expert Classes etc.
Base Classes
Bass Classes have 20 levels and are accessible to Player Characters beginning at Career Level 1.
Base class information/formating includes 4 main sections: Introduction, Class Features, Class Abilities (including a core ability) and a class progression table.
The Introduction is the class name followed by a written description, including themes and influences. A bulleted list provides 5 examples of archetypical characters built with this class. This section also indicates the class' intended Party Role (Backer, Combatant, Solver, Specialist, Talker, Wildcard). Classes offering a hybrid of these roles list all roles seperated by slashes, with the more predominanent roles listed first.
Class Features include Requirements (optional), Favored Attributes, Class Skills, Skill Points, Vitality, and Starting Proficiencies. This section also indicates special modifiers like Caster, granting the character Casting Levels as they advance in this class.
Requirements are optional and generally used to indicate a class is based on the presence of a particular campaign quality.
Class Skills, Skill Points, and Vitality are linked into specific sets with three possible combinations:
Class skills: list of 12; Skill points: 8 + Int mod ; Vitality 6 + Con mod; Starting Proficiences: 1
Class skills: list of 10; Skill points: 6 + Int mod ; Vitality 9 + Con mod; Starting Proficiences: 1
Class skills: list of 8; Skill points: 4 + Int mod ; Vitality 12 + Con mod; Starting Proficiences: 1
Base Class skill lists always include the Notice skill.
Starting Proficiencies range from 2 to 6 and are the sum of proficiencies granted by skill/vitalty template and BAB progression (see below).
Class Abilities are the various non-numerical benefits the class offers as charaters gain levels in the class. The class' Core Ability is called out at the begining of this section under its own header.
Base Class Abilities follow a strict skeleton:
1 - A, Core
2 - B1
3 - C1
4 - D1
5 - C2
6 - F1
7- C3
8 - D2
9 - C4, F2
10 - H1
11 - B2, C5
12 - D3, F3
13 - C6
14 - G (gamebreaker)
15 - C7, F4
16- D4
17 - C8
18 - C4, F5
19 - C9
20 - H2
The Class Progression table has column for Class Level, 8 or 9 progressions (the 9th progression is used for spell points or other oprional systems), and a column for listing Class Abilities in context with class level.
Class progressions are created by distributing 8 design points between the 8 (or 9) progession columns. 0 points is refered to as 'low progression', 1 point grants 'medium progression', and 2 points grants 'high progression'.
Base Attack Bonus. Low progression +0 to +10 (+1 starting proficiency). Medium progression +0 to +15 (+2 starting proficiencies). High progression +1 to +20 (+3 starting proficiencies).
Saves (Fortitude, Reflex, Will). Low progression +0 to +6. Medium progression +1 to +9. High progression +2 to +12.
Defense. Low progression +0 to +8. Medium progression +1 to +12. High progression +2 to +16.
Initiative Bonus. Low progression +0 to +6. Medium progression +1 to +12. High progression +2 to +18.
Lifestyle. Low progression +0 to +6. Medium progression +1 to +9. High progression +2 to +12.
Legend. Low progression +0 to +5. Medium progression +1 to +10. High progression +1 to +15.
Spell Points. Low progression none. Medium progression 1 per level. High progression 2 per level.
Quote from: tenbones on January 05, 2023, 04:12:57 PM
Edit: SADLY I can't find the Database anywhere. My heart breaks a little. So much greatness in there. I need to find the guys that made it. Crafty doesn't even seem to maintain a forum anymore.
Crafty shut down more or less all their website stuff about a month back--I know because they moved my Call to Arms bundle over to DTRPG. (And I'd better make sure that's backed up, what with today's news.)
Expert Classes
Expert Classes have 10 levels and are accessible to Player Characters beginning at Career Level 5 (some character options may allow entry at Career Level 4).
Expert class information/formating includes 4 main sections: Introduction, Class Features, Class Abilities (including a core ability) and a Class Progression table.
The Introduction is the class name followed by a written description, including themes and influences. A bulleted list provides 5 examples of archetypical characters built with this class. This section also indicates the class' intended Party Role (Backer, Combatant, Solver, Specialist, Talker, Wildcard). Classes offering a hybrid of these roles list all roles seperated by slashes, with the more predominanent roles listed first.
Class Features include Requirements, Favored Attributes, Class Skills, Skill Points, Vitality, and Starting Proficiencies. This section also indicates special modifiers like Caster, granting the character Casting Levels as they advance in this class.
Requirements are indicate character options that must be required prior to acquiring levels in this class. Requirements utilize a 5 design point sytem and are primarily to ensure that class mechanics have a proper foundation to function (i.e. classes granting a second tier feat often require the first tier feat as a requirement).
Class Skills, Skill Points, and Vitality are linked into specific sets with three possible combinations:
Class skills: list of 12; Skill points: 8 + Int mod ; Vitality 6 + Con mod
Class skills: list of 10; Skill points: 6 + Int mod ; Vitality 9 + Con mod
Class skills: list of 8; Skill points: 4 + Int mod ; Vitality 12 + Con mod
Expert classes do not provide starting proficiencies.
Class Abilities are the various non-numerical benefits the class offers as charaters gain levels in the class. The class' Core Ability is called out at the begining of this section under its own header.
Expert Class Abilities follow a strict skeleton:
1 - A, Core
2 - B1
3 - C1
4 - D1, E
5 - C2
6 - F
7- B2, C3
8 - D2, G
9 - C4
10 - H ("gamebreaer")
The Class Progression table has column for Class Level, 8 or 9 progressions (the 9th progression is used for spell points or other oprional systems), and a column for listing Class Abilities in context with class level.
Class progressions are created by distributing 8 design points between the 8 (or 9) progession columns. 0 points is refered to as 'low progression', 1 point grants 'medium progression', and 2 points grants 'high progression'.
Base Attack Bonus. Low progression +0 to +5. Medium progression +0 to +7. High progression +1 to +10.
Saves (Fortitude, Reflex, Will). Low progression +0 to +3. Medium progression +1 to +5. High progression +2 to +7.
Defense. Low progression +0 to +4. Medium progression +1 to +6. High progression +2 to +9.
Initiative Bonus. Low progression +0 to +3. Medium progression +1 to +6. High progression +2 to +10.
Lifestyle. Low progression +0 to +3. Medium progression +1 to +5. High progression +2 to +7.
Legend. Low progression +0 to +3. Medium progression +1 to +5. High progression +1 to +8.
Spell Points. Low progression none. Medium progression 1 per level. High progression 2 per level.
Master Classes
Master Classes have 5 levels and are accessible to Player Characters beginning at Career Level 10 (some character options may allow entry at Career Level 9).
Master class information/formating includes 4 main sections: Introduction, Class Features, Class Abilities, and a Class Progression table.
The Introduction is the class name followed by a written description, including themes and influences. A bulleted list provides 5 examples of archetypical characters built with this class. This section also indicates the class' intended Party Role (Backer, Combatant, Solver, Specialist, Talker, Wildcard). Classes offering a hybrid of these roles list all roles seperated by slashes, with the more predominanent roles listed first.
Class Features include Requirements, Favored Attributes, Class Skills, Skill Points, Vitality, and Starting Proficiencies. This section also indicates special modifiers like Caster, granting the character Casting Levels as they advance in this class.
Requirements are indicate character options that must be required prior to acquiring levels in this class. Requirements utilize a 7 design point sytem and are primarily to ensure that class mechanics have a proper foundation to function (i.e. classes granting a second iter feat often require the first tier feat as a requirement).
Class Skills, Skill Points, and Vitality are linked into specific sets with three possible combinations:
Class skills: list of 12; Skill points: 8 + Int mod ; Vitality 6 + Con mod
Class skills: list of 10; Skill points: 6 + Int mod ; Vitality 9 + Con mod
Class skills: list of 8; Skill points: 4 + Int mod ; Vitality 12 + Con mod
Master classes do not provide starting proficiencies.
Continuity. Some Master Classes have the conitnuity ability which reduces the number of skills in the skill list by 2.
Class Abilities are the various non-numerical benefits the class offers as charaters gain levels in the class. Master Classes do not feature a core ability.
Master Class Abilities follow a strict skeleton:
1 - A, B1
2 - C
3 - D
4 - B2, E
5 - F (gamebreaker)
The Class Progression table has column for Class Level, 8 or 9 progressions (the 9th progression is used for spell points or other oprional systems), and a column for listing Class Abilities in context with class level.
Class progressions are created by distributing 8 design points between the 8 (or 9) progession columns. 0 points is refered to as 'low progression', 1 point grants 'medium progression', and 2 points grants 'high progression'.
Base Attack Bonus. Low progression +0 to +2. Medium progression +0 to +3. High progression +1 to +5.
Saves (Fortitude, Reflex, Will). Low progression +0 to +1. Medium progression +1 to +3. High progression +2 to +4.
Defense. Low progression +0 to +2. Medium progression +1 to +3. High progression +2 to +5.
Initiative Bonus. Low progression +0 to +1. Medium progression +1 to +3. High progression +2 to +5.
Lifestyle. Low progression +0 to +1. Medium progression +1 to +3. High progression +2 to +4.
Legend. Low progression +0 to +1. Medium progression +1 to +3. High progression +1 to +4.
Spell Points. Low progression none. Medium progression 1 per level. High progression 2 per level.
Quote from: tenbones on January 05, 2023, 04:38:18 PM
Okay I my Googlefu is on point... I may have found it...
These are the templates for creating Classes, Expert Classes etc.
Thank you, my Google Fu and Archive.org Fu was failing me.
you should be able to backwards engineer from those templates and the main book any kind of class you can imagine. Simply plug and play everything.
Quote from: tenbones on January 05, 2023, 04:12:57 PMCrafty doesn't even seem to maintain a forum anymore.
Looks like they shut it down last year. No FC at their store either-- it sends you to Drive-Thru.
Since I have the PDFs, might just print one out to peruse...what IS the actual difference between 1st and 2nd printings?
Archive has the database, although I'm not sure how complete:
https://web.archive.org/web/20110221022211/http://www.fantasycraftdb.com/
Quote from: Brad on January 05, 2023, 05:32:41 PM
Since I have the PDFs, might just print one out to peruse...what IS the actual difference between 1st and 2nd printings?
I only remember there was a LOT of errata between print editions that got rolled into 2nd Printing. As I recall - it was like over 20-pages worth.
I *could* be wrong, but I don't think so. I came to FC a little late, and everyone was telling do *not* get the first printing, including one of the designers.
Quote from: tenbones on January 06, 2023, 11:58:03 AM
I only remember there was a LOT of errata between print editions that got rolled into 2nd Printing. As I recall - it was like over 20-pages worth.
I *could* be wrong, but I don't think so. I came to FC a little late, and everyone was telling do *not* get the first printing, including one of the designers.
Like I said, I gave away my first printing FC book (and Spycraft stuff) last summer, but I do have the PDFs so I just made hard copies of the 2nd printing and Adventurer's Companion. Over ten years later, and through a new lens of having not played 3.X for a long while, I can see the appeal of this game IF you are willing to put in the work. If you like GURPS/HERO, this is a fantastic rules-set for d20 D&D-type gaming. The issue is I just don't really have the time to do this sort of crap anymore. My buddy is currently running an AD&D game and I never thought I'd advocate for using something like Castles and Crusades instead, but after leveling up my bard a few days back I'm just about ready to go as simple as possible. Ascending AC? Used to think that was a product of pure Satanic origin, now it's appealing.
That said, I'm wondering if it would be possible to construct an entire game using FC and only give the players specifically what they needed to play in it, much like what you'd do if running GURPS. Couple reference sheets but shield them from the endless variety that results in choice overload. I dunno, maybe I'll try to run this as an alternative game soon, just to see how it works out.
I was literally having this conversation last night with some friends.
I *love* FC. But... it's now in competition with everything else I have to do the *same thing*. The amount of work for me to set up a sandbox requires some tuning, nothing I find onerous but the amount of basic effort required to tune it where I'd like it in direct relation to itself is more than say, Savage Worlds.
But of course these two systems play different. So my first instinct, now, is to take FC and trim it down. I told my friends, I'd run FC or even 1e/2e if the whole group demanded it, and if that did happen I'd likely take a stab at making my theoretical 2e/FC inspired Fantasy Heartbreaker.
In no particular matter.
1) Defense Score based on Archetype and Attack Bonus (weapon in hand).
2) Level squish to 10-levels. That means all levels will be *meaty* and meaningful.
3) Spellcasting is a skill. Spell failure has consequences.
4) All stats matter.
5) Wounds/Vitality. Possibly Wounds only, and you make a Save as a "Soak" against damage where the difference is applied to Wounds. Wounds will give penalties. Deathspiral mechanics.
6) Martial Feats will be *deadly* to allow them to scale to Spellcaster magic.
7) All Feats will be useful. No "Feat Tree" deeper than two.
8) Setting Conditions
9) LIFEPATHS
10) Archetypes not classes. This will mean there will be basic chassis you build your character on. From that point forward you will be adding basic Archetype bonuses per level and Feats and Skills as you see fit.
That's off the cuff, but what i'd aim for.