Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2024, 08:38:12 PM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 27, 2024, 06:59:26 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2024, 05:21:06 PMFor my medieval-based D&D games, I prefer to be inspired by harsh, brutal reality.

Ain't no one in any pseudo-medieval world gonna let their crippled relative, who is confined to a wheelchair, go adventuring. Even if they were the most gifted Wizard pupil around, the harsh reality of life would smack them in the face long before they went into their first ruin. And, as I said, it presumes that not a single Cleric does anything for charity. That their friendly Druid neighbor doesn't take pity on them and see to it their life is not confined to some wheelchair.

Greetings!

Yep, my friend! The whole argument is arguing from a position of absolute absurdity. Morons push for this kind of BS. Imagine what anyone rational in the game-world itself would likely think about such morons. They would laugh at them ruthlessly, out-of-hand. These pathetic, weak, helpless types of characters make zero sense in the harsh, real world environment--and they don't somehow make more sense in a harsh, brutal world that also has vampires, bands of savage orcs, and dragons running about seeking to slaughter everything that comes across their path.

The promotion of this nonsense is for the most part promoted by woke, jello-filled morons that are absolutely delusional.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

In Hackmaster 4th Ed, you has quirks and flaws (both mental and physical) for your PC by either cherry pick or roll (3 max by cherry pick). The more quirks and flaws you have, the more building points you get to purchase talents and skills at character creation.

BUT there is a threshold. A saturation point if you will, where the character would be considered unplayable. Through a sheer number of unlucky rolls, your character could become unplayable.  You could end up with a character who is a quadriplegic with chronic nose bleeds, migraines, stutters, and thinks he's a king (delusional).

My point? Sure you can have a game where PC do have quirks and flaws. HM 4E pulls this off. A PC who is a chronic liar, has unusual body odor, and in near-sighted is not exactly unplayable for example. As a DM, I would on occasion use these quirks and flaws against the PC. Honestly, that's part of my job.

But the guy who is character who is a quadriplegic with chronic nose bleeds, migraines, stutters, and thinks he's a king (delusional)?

No, he's unplayable. Period.

There comes a point where the shit piles up so much, you just have to say to yourself "there is no fucking way this character is playable."

The problem is the Skittle colored hair crowd thinks quirks and flaws are not as they are. They don't understand there are limits.

I don't care how fucking intelligent Steven Hawking was but he isn't climbing a fucking tree.

Intelligent? Yes. Genius? For sure. Run a 500m dash? Fuck NO!

Which is why...

In the opinion of those of you who actually run games, can a wheelchair bound character have an 18 dexterity or equivalent, and does removing the chair alter this in anyway? If say a beholder thanos-sizes the wheelchair out from under your arse are we adjusting your ac or dodge or whatever?

Quote from: blackstone on March 28, 2024, 10:09:10 AMThe problem is the Skittle colored hair crowd thinks quirks and flaws are not as they are. They don't understand there are limits.

I would argue they simply don't want the actual flaws. They want the appearance of being disabled without actually having to play a disabled PC. Its virtue signaling retardation taken to its logical extreme. The stupid fucker that came up with the 'combat wheelchair' made sure that any such PC confined to one was better and more capable than a standard PC.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 28, 2024, 05:05:41 PM

Quote from: blackstone on March 28, 2024, 10:09:10 AMThe problem is the Skittle colored hair crowd thinks quirks and flaws are not as they are. They don't understand there are limits.

I would argue they simply don't want the actual flaws. They want the appearance of being disabled without actually having to play a disabled PC. Its virtue signaling retardation taken to its logical extreme. The stupid fucker that came up with the 'combat wheelchair' made sure that any such PC confined to one was better and more capable than a standard PC.

Greetings!

Exactly, my friend! Which begs the question, in my mind, "Why even have the stupid "disability"--which is not a disability--in the first place? Why not dispense with the fucking rainbow sprinkles and the fucking candycane in your mouth, and play a normal character to begin with?

That is how you know really that none of this BS is based on reality. It is all Woke BS, and a mechanism for infiltration, subversion, and control. That is really what is at the core of all of this, as well as a slice of narcissism pie for sobbing crybabies to always be able to shriek, "LOOK AT ME! I'M AWESOME AND SPECIAL!" You know?

This BS is so frustrating.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 27, 2024, 09:56:12 PM
Ruts. Ancient and medieval roads had deep ruts. Dirt roads, stone roads, dry or wet. We don't get the same thing today except sometimes on unmaintained backcountry roads. The ruts were carved over years by thousands of carts. Speaking of carts...a donkey cart would be infinitely more practical than a wheelchair.

Depends on the traffic. And you can putter between ruts if they are wagon sized. But we lived around alot of Amish and their dirt roads did not have ruts. Or at least ones worth noting. Its been a few decades now. Not sure why. But if they can pull it off...

Rain is still going the be the more pressing problem. And you still have the off-road problem.

You know what occurred to me that could work?

A halfling or gnome ranger or artificer in a dog cart or similar. I have an old catalogue from 1930 and theres a section on them for dogs, goats even to pull children around. Still got that off-road problem. But maybe something like a magical sled? Of course the woke cant ever think of more than a fantasy indestructo flying wheelchair.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 27, 2024, 11:21:49 PM
Being in a wheelchair, taking care of such survivors, and lacking alternatives, is not an unlikely scenario in a post-apocalyptic war against machines. And as long as it's treated as a liability and not some superpower it shouldn't be antithetical to verisimilitude. But at this point simply seeing a wheelchair is apparently just as triggering for yall as those hypothetical 'dogwhistles' the wokies keep complaining about.

This ideological bullshit is so tedious.

Its not so much the wheelchair - as the thought, or lack thereof, behind it. Anymore its more likely these insertions are not in good faith. That is the problem.

I have no idea if its viable or not in a post apoc setting. But circumstance is going to FORCE the handicapped to get out there and fight.

I think the same off-road/rubble problems are going to be a problem though. And anything with stairs. We come back to the need for a PC to act as handler for these problems. Which fits these settings too. And as said before. Can even fit a fantasy one. Work together or die alone.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on March 28, 2024, 04:58:13 PM
In the opinion of those of you who actually run games, can a wheelchair bound character have an 18 dexterity or equivalent, and does removing the chair alter this in anyway? If say a beholder thanos-sizes the wheelchair out from under your arse are we adjusting your ac or dodge or whatever?

In D&D the person would be prone and all the penalties that grants and no way to un-prone yourself without righting the chair and pulling yourself back in it. This actually happens in some of the Ghostbuster Extreme episodes where the wheelchair bound character gets knocked out of his chair. He either has to right it and get back in, or fight from the ground.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 27, 2024, 11:21:49 PM
But at this point simply seeing a wheelchair is apparently just as triggering for yall as those hypothetical 'dogwhistles' the wokies keep complaining about.

I think you might have something there.
If one pops up in a game, I'm going to play that X-card.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 28, 2024, 05:05:41 PM

Quote from: blackstone on March 28, 2024, 10:09:10 AMThe problem is the Skittle colored hair crowd thinks quirks and flaws are not as they are. They don't understand there are limits.

I would argue they simply don't want the actual flaws. They want the appearance of being disabled without actually having to play a disabled PC. Its virtue signaling retardation taken to its logical extreme. The stupid fucker that came up with the 'combat wheelchair' made sure that any such PC confined to one was better and more capable than a standard PC.

Theres also a fantisization of being handicapped. As if it is no hindrance at all. Movies, cartoons.

Or they think they will automatically get some compensation sense from it that will lessen it. Guess what. You aint! I've talked with alot of handicapped folk about this and way more than half ended up with no other sense enhanced.

I feel this comes from the overall push to gloss over the negatives of being handicapped. Which leaves some people unprepared for the harsh realities.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 28, 2024, 05:05:41 PM

Quote from: blackstone on March 28, 2024, 10:09:10 AMThe problem is the Skittle colored hair crowd thinks quirks and flaws are not as they are. They don't understand there are limits.

I would argue they simply don't want the actual flaws. They want the appearance of being disabled without actually having to play a disabled PC. Its virtue signaling retardation taken to its logical extreme. The stupid fucker that came up with the 'combat wheelchair' made sure that any such PC confined to one was better and more capable than a standard PC.

Sometimes that is probably it.  I think some of it is the same old stupid trick that's been around since the game first existed:  Try to push the GM's buttons to make them dance to your tune.  Some people just really get off on wrecking the experience for everyone else, to the point they aren't having fun if they can't push in that way. 

I decided a long time ago that I wasn't having any of that in any game I ran. Woke BS is yet another case.  It is a particularly annoying case in some ways, but the more subtle, non-political versions are just as damaging to a group in the long run.

Quote from: blackstone on March 28, 2024, 10:09:10 AM

Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2024, 08:38:12 PM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 27, 2024, 06:59:26 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2024, 05:21:06 PMFor my medieval-based D&D games, I prefer to be inspired by harsh, brutal reality.

Ain't no one in any pseudo-medieval world gonna let their crippled relative, who is confined to a wheelchair, go adventuring. Even if they were the most gifted Wizard pupil around, the harsh reality of life would smack them in the face long before they went into their first ruin. And, as I said, it presumes that not a single Cleric does anything for charity. That their friendly Druid neighbor doesn't take pity on them and see to it their life is not confined to some wheelchair.

Greetings!

Yep, my friend! The whole argument is arguing from a position of absolute absurdity. Morons push for this kind of BS. Imagine what anyone rational in the game-world itself would likely think about such morons. They would laugh at them ruthlessly, out-of-hand. These pathetic, weak, helpless types of characters make zero sense in the harsh, real world environment--and they don't somehow make more sense in a harsh, brutal world that also has vampires, bands of savage orcs, and dragons running about seeking to slaughter everything that comes across their path.

The promotion of this nonsense is for the most part promoted by woke, jello-filled morons that are absolutely delusional.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

In Hackmaster 4th Ed, you has quirks and flaws (both mental and physical) for your PC by either cherry pick or roll (3 max by cherry pick). The more quirks and flaws you have, the more building points you get to purchase talents and skills at character creation.

BUT there is a threshold. A saturation point if you will, where the character would be considered unplayable. Through a sheer number of unlucky rolls, your character could become unplayable.  You could end up with a character who is a quadriplegic with chronic nose bleeds, migraines, stutters, and thinks he's a king (delusional).

My point? Sure you can have a game where PC do have quirks and flaws. HM 4E pulls this off. A PC who is a chronic liar, has unusual body odor, and in near-sighted is not exactly unplayable for example. As a DM, I would on occasion use these quirks and flaws against the PC. Honestly, that's part of my job.

But the guy who is character who is a quadriplegic with chronic nose bleeds, migraines, stutters, and thinks he's a king (delusional)?

No, he's unplayable. Period.

There comes a point where the shit piles up so much, you just have to say to yourself "there is no fucking way this character is playable."

The problem is the Skittle colored hair crowd thinks quirks and flaws are not as they are. They don't understand there are limits.

I don't care how fucking intelligent Steven Hawking was but he isn't climbing a fucking tree.

Intelligent? Yes. Genius? For sure. Run a 500m dash? Fuck NO!

Which is why...

Greetings!

Absolutely, my friend! Hackmaster was absolute *genius* too! Definitely a system that makes Woke people REEE and cry!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Slipshot762 on March 28, 2024, 04:58:13 PM
In the opinion of those of you who actually run games, can a wheelchair bound character have an 18 dexterity or equivalent, and does removing the chair alter this in anyway? If say a beholder thanos-sizes the wheelchair out from under your arse are we adjusting your ac or dodge or whatever?

That's getting into what the D&D attributes actually represent, which is a whole other can of worms. I see no reason why a wheelchair-bound character could not be an expert marksman, at least with a crossbow or firearm. But I'm also not giving them a dodge bonus to AC. Where that gets complicated is that the Dex bonus to AC theoretically incorporates both parrying and dodging. While being in a wheelchair would badly hinder your ability to fence, it doesn't make parrying impossible, so maybe limit on the max AC bonus they can get from Dexterity would be in order. I'd penalize the shit out of their reflexes-based saving throws, too.

If the wheelchair got suddenly vaporized they would be prone, and that would do whatever it otherwise does in the game rules.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 28, 2024, 09:39:14 PM

Quote from: Slipshot762 on March 28, 2024, 04:58:13 PM
In the opinion of those of you who actually run games, can a wheelchair bound character have an 18 dexterity or equivalent, and does removing the chair alter this in anyway? If say a beholder thanos-sizes the wheelchair out from under your arse are we adjusting your ac or dodge or whatever?

That's getting into what the D&D attributes actually represent, which is a whole other can of worms. I see no reason why a wheelchair-bound character could not be an expert marksman, at least with a crossbow or firearm. But I'm also not giving them a dodge bonus to AC. Where that gets complicated is that the Dex bonus to AC theoretically incorporates both parrying and dodging. While being in a wheelchair would badly hinder your ability to fence, it doesn't make parrying impossible, so maybe limit on the max AC bonus they can get from Dexterity would be in order. I'd penalize the shit out of their reflexes-based saving throws, too.

If the wheelchair got suddenly vaporized they would be prone, and that would do whatever it otherwise does in the game rules.

Agreed.  You can have an 18 in dex and be completely helpless in combat with a horrible AC because your (lack of) mobility overrides the general rule of dex and AC just like being restrained.  The dex still has full effect both regardless of whether you're in a wheelchair for appropriate ranged attacks as well as other potentially picking locks or crafting intricate items.

Quote from: SHARK on March 28, 2024, 09:27:41 PM

Quote from: blackstone on March 28, 2024, 10:09:10 AM

Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2024, 08:38:12 PM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 27, 2024, 06:59:26 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2024, 05:21:06 PMFor my medieval-based D&D games, I prefer to be inspired by harsh, brutal reality.

Ain't no one in any pseudo-medieval world gonna let their crippled relative, who is confined to a wheelchair, go adventuring. Even if they were the most gifted Wizard pupil around, the harsh reality of life would smack them in the face long before they went into their first ruin. And, as I said, it presumes that not a single Cleric does anything for charity. That their friendly Druid neighbor doesn't take pity on them and see to it their life is not confined to some wheelchair.

Greetings!

Yep, my friend! The whole argument is arguing from a position of absolute absurdity. Morons push for this kind of BS. Imagine what anyone rational in the game-world itself would likely think about such morons. They would laugh at them ruthlessly, out-of-hand. These pathetic, weak, helpless types of characters make zero sense in the harsh, real world environment--and they don't somehow make more sense in a harsh, brutal world that also has vampires, bands of savage orcs, and dragons running about seeking to slaughter everything that comes across their path.

The promotion of this nonsense is for the most part promoted by woke, jello-filled morons that are absolutely delusional.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

In Hackmaster 4th Ed, you has quirks and flaws (both mental and physical) for your PC by either cherry pick or roll (3 max by cherry pick). The more quirks and flaws you have, the more building points you get to purchase talents and skills at character creation.

BUT there is a threshold. A saturation point if you will, where the character would be considered unplayable. Through a sheer number of unlucky rolls, your character could become unplayable.  You could end up with a character who is a quadriplegic with chronic nose bleeds, migraines, stutters, and thinks he's a king (delusional).

My point? Sure you can have a game where PC do have quirks and flaws. HM 4E pulls this off. A PC who is a chronic liar, has unusual body odor, and in near-sighted is not exactly unplayable for example. As a DM, I would on occasion use these quirks and flaws against the PC. Honestly, that's part of my job.

But the guy who is character who is a quadriplegic with chronic nose bleeds, migraines, stutters, and thinks he's a king (delusional)?

No, he's unplayable. Period.

There comes a point where the shit piles up so much, you just have to say to yourself "there is no fucking way this character is playable."

The problem is the Skittle colored hair crowd thinks quirks and flaws are not as they are. They don't understand there are limits.

I don't care how fucking intelligent Steven Hawking was but he isn't climbing a fucking tree.

Intelligent? Yes. Genius? For sure. Run a 500m dash? Fuck NO!

Which is why...

Greetings!

Absolutely, my friend! Hackmaster was absolute *genius* too! Definitely a system that makes Woke people REEE and cry!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Indeed. You can strike a balance in HM4E, where your character can have some quirks and flaws to where he has to somehow overcome them (talents and skills can compensate), but there no so detrimental to the PC to where he's...well....a gimp, or a danger to himself or others (Hacklust and HackFrenzy are examples of this).

on a side note: Tropic Thunder is fucking HILARIOUS! Along with Blazing Saddles, is a movie that could NOT be made today.

Quote from: RNGm on March 29, 2024, 07:23:10 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 28, 2024, 09:39:14 PM

Quote from: Slipshot762 on March 28, 2024, 04:58:13 PM
In the opinion of those of you who actually run games, can a wheelchair bound character have an 18 dexterity or equivalent, and does removing the chair alter this in anyway? If say a beholder thanos-sizes the wheelchair out from under your arse are we adjusting your ac or dodge or whatever?

That's getting into what the D&D attributes actually represent, which is a whole other can of worms. I see no reason why a wheelchair-bound character could not be an expert marksman, at least with a crossbow or firearm. But I'm also not giving them a dodge bonus to AC. Where that gets complicated is that the Dex bonus to AC theoretically incorporates both parrying and dodging. While being in a wheelchair would badly hinder your ability to fence, it doesn't make parrying impossible, so maybe limit on the max AC bonus they can get from Dexterity would be in order. I'd penalize the shit out of their reflexes-based saving throws, too.

If the wheelchair got suddenly vaporized they would be prone, and that would do whatever it otherwise does in the game rules.

Agreed.  You can have an 18 in dex and be completely helpless in combat with a horrible AC because your (lack of) mobility overrides the general rule of dex and AC just like being restrained.  The dex still has full effect both regardless of whether you're in a wheelchair for appropriate ranged attacks as well as other potentially picking locks or crafting intricate items.

In my HERO System game, I had my wheelchair-bound PC at half DCV in general, which is a common condition in HERO System. If he were out of his wheelchair, I'd probably just keep it at half rather than reduce to a third mostly for simplicity. We also bought down his Strength a bunch compared to pre-injury rating, to reflect his overall strength since most of effective strength is in the lower body. We didn't lower Dex because it is used for so many things that aren't leg-related, like shooting, reaction time, etc.

AC in D&D is strange because it represents armor as well as dodging. A wheelchair-using character shouldn't have much Dex bonus to AC. I'd cap that regardless of wheelchair or not like heavy armor does. Of course they'd still benefit from armor.