Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2024, 01:43:45 PM
To simplify the game balance point:

• If a wheelchair-bound character is created the same way as any other, and then apply realistic effects of being paraplegic - then yeah, that character will be a liability compared to the others.
• If being wheelchair-bound is balanced by other advantages (as is normal in game balance), then whether the character is a liability, balanced, or overpowered depends on what the compensating advantages given are.

It's the same principle as any other weakness in a game.

This simplifies to:

• Equality (aka equal opportunity)
• Equity (aka equal outcome)

And that probably explains why so many here, me included, don't like the second one in gaming. IRL lots of people demand equal outcomes, which in many cases is fine with me. Everyone should be able to function in society and if that means wheelchair ramps and handicapped parking, that's great. 

But in a game designed to simulate certain activities, the second one breaks verisimilitude and comes across as pandering. Proponents of equity refuse to engage with the game as it is. Perhaps they are incapable of engaging with a fictional world on its own terms. We see this all the time with a certain segment of (apparent) gamers. They demand IRL representation in a fictional world, which IMO is a failure to understand and appreciate the game.

Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2024, 07:39:14 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 26, 2024, 06:01:29 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2024, 03:57:37 PM
If a character has enough compensating power and skills, then they are still an asset to the group and will be taken along even if they sometimes need help.

'Sometimes need help' is a woman or child getting tired and needing a hand over a wall. Trying to cross a rubble-strewn hellscape crawling with killer robots, with wheelchair gal, is stupid to the point of destroying verisimilitude.

Watch the T1 flashback, where able bodied people are killed after being visible for a second.

The whole point of the Terminator movies was having unlikely heroes rather than the standard action heroes. T1 had a seasoned commando as a plot device, but the real protagonist was an unassuming waitress who is the one that wins in the end. T2 the protagonist was a ten-year-old kid. A wheelchair-using character is spot-on with the theme.

If, say, the wheelchair-using character were the only one with the skill to reprogram terminator robots, then I'm pretty sure the others would go through fire to make sure to get them into the right place to do it.

You are exactly the sort of asshole that would die trying to push a wheelchair through rubble. You are spouting the same intersectional rhetoric as the woke morons at  Nightfall games. Have you watched the movies or any of the other media ?  Have you seen the way the survivors live?  Or maybe you think that somewhere in the cramped shelters there is wheelchair access funded by grants from Skynet.

Greetings!

Superheroes in comic books? Movies?

Fuck that BS.

For my medieval-based D&D games, I prefer to be inspired by harsh, brutal reality.

To be a member of the adventuring team, it is simple, but demanding.

You need to be able to fucking run. For miles.
You need to be able to march for many miles, loaded down with a field pack and full gear.
You need to be able to climb up a rope.
You need to rappel down a ripe from a considerable height.
You need to run and jump off a high point, landing in deep water, fully dressed in clothes. From which you need to tread water and swim effectively.
You need to be able to stay awake and alert for two or three days straight, with no sleep, and no food. Only water.
You need to perform basic wrestling, boxing, and hand-to-hand combat drills against an opponent.
You need to demonstrate basic proficiency in several standard weapons.

Pacifists, the fat, the weak, the crippled, the slow, the stupid--and especially morons trapped in fucking wheelchairs--can stay the fuck home.

All the coddling and crying for including all of the weak, pathetic members of society in a super-dangerous, highly demanding job of what professional Adventurers do is just mind-bogglingly stupid. Get real.

That's the bottom line. This is also why all this pussy juice nonsense is pushed by Woke morons. Because they do not live in reality, and cannot comprehend even a fantasy game that embraces strong elements of reality. Their expectations are fucking laughably absurd--which is why normal gamers reject this stupid nonsense.

All you veterans out there know what I'm talking about. Just going for a quick run overland, through even modest countryside--is fucking impossible for crippled people in a fucking wheelchair. That's ABOVE GROUND. That's not running up and down fucking mountains. That sure as fuck isn't crawling through subterranean tunnels and caves. Over and over and over again, Geesus. Crippled people cannot even hardly dress themselves without help. Cripples in wheelchairs are absolutely a liability to the team. Even trying to bring someone like that out into the field is a recipe for swift and fatal FAILURE.

Ask yourself, what is the whole point of (A) Having a demanding, dangerous mission to accomplish--but somehow, not wanting the toughest and most capable people you can get? Why the fuck would you want to bring someone that is obviously handicapped, crippled, and otherwise simply incapable of keeping up with the real demands in the field?

Someone even suggesting such crippled, helpless members for a team setting out on dangerous field missions, I would think must be fucking insane.

That is a very good way to absolutely fail the mission, and get everyone else killed in the process. All for nothing, because some jello-filled moron thought it was kind, and fair, and goody goody, and "inclusive" to bring some crippled fuck in a wheelchair.

Mind boggling. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2024, 05:21:06 PM
Greetings!

Superheroes in comic books? Movies?

Fuck that BS.

For my medieval-based D&D games, I prefer to be inspired by harsh, brutal reality.

To be a member of the adventuring team, it is simple, but demanding.

You need to be able to fucking run. For miles.
You need to be able to march for many miles, loaded down with a field pack and full gear.
You need to be able to climb up a rope.
You need to rappel down a ripe from a considerable height.
You need to run and jump off a high point, landing in deep water, fully dressed in clothes. From which you need to tread water and swim effectively.
You need to be able to stay awake and alert for two or three days straight, with no sleep, and no food. Only water.
You need to perform basic wrestling, boxing, and hand-to-hand combat drills against an opponent.
You need to demonstrate basic proficiency in several standard weapons.

Pacifists, the fat, the weak, the crippled, the slow, the stupid--and especially morons trapped in fucking wheelchairs--can stay the fuck home.

You literally just described every kickass 80's street-super-hero.

Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2024, 05:21:06 PMFor my medieval-based D&D games, I prefer to be inspired by harsh, brutal reality.

Ain't no one in any pseudo-medieval world gonna let their crippled relative, who is confined to a wheelchair, go adventuring. Even if they were the most gifted Wizard pupil around, the harsh reality of life would smack them in the face long before they went into their first ruin. And, as I said, it presumes that not a single Cleric does anything for charity. That their friendly Druid neighbor doesn't take pity on them and see to it their life is not confined to some wheelchair.

Quote from: tenbones on March 27, 2024, 05:52:04 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2024, 05:21:06 PM
Greetings!

Superheroes in comic books? Movies?

Fuck that BS.

For my medieval-based D&D games, I prefer to be inspired by harsh, brutal reality.

To be a member of the adventuring team, it is simple, but demanding.

You need to be able to fucking run. For miles.
You need to be able to march for many miles, loaded down with a field pack and full gear.
You need to be able to climb up a rope.
You need to rappel down a ripe from a considerable height.
You need to run and jump off a high point, landing in deep water, fully dressed in clothes. From which you need to tread water and swim effectively.
You need to be able to stay awake and alert for two or three days straight, with no sleep, and no food. Only water.
You need to perform basic wrestling, boxing, and hand-to-hand combat drills against an opponent.
You need to demonstrate basic proficiency in several standard weapons.

Pacifists, the fat, the weak, the crippled, the slow, the stupid--and especially morons trapped in fucking wheelchairs--can stay the fuck home.

You literally just described every kickass 80's street-super-hero.

Greetings!

*Laughing* Yeah, my friend, I imagine so. I don't play superhero games though.

I do know what Marine Infantry squads do. I'm also familiar with other branches of troops, and the normal, routine achievements and standards they must embrace at all times--with no exceptions. In a similar manner, the medieval-inspired Adventuring party is routinely involved with a similar lifestyle, schedule, and activities, aimed at accomplishing the mission.

Whether the scenario is a modern combat zone, or a medieval-inspired combat zone, crippled, weak characters in wheelchairs have no place being in such an environment. Similarly, the old, very young, the fat, the weak, or the stupid.

Such crippled, fucked up or otherwise disadvantaged characters all suffer from the same harsh buffet table--

They are a liability to the group, they inhibit the mission from being successful; and they are a drain in energy, effort and resources from the rest of the team unnecessarily. All of these weak, sub-standard characters and their misfit problems can easily be avoided altogether by the hard-charging Adventuring party that wants to succeed, and survive--

Only bring new members into the team that can keep up and maintain the standards of the team.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 27, 2024, 06:59:26 PM

Quote from: SHARK on March 27, 2024, 05:21:06 PMFor my medieval-based D&D games, I prefer to be inspired by harsh, brutal reality.

Ain't no one in any pseudo-medieval world gonna let their crippled relative, who is confined to a wheelchair, go adventuring. Even if they were the most gifted Wizard pupil around, the harsh reality of life would smack them in the face long before they went into their first ruin. And, as I said, it presumes that not a single Cleric does anything for charity. That their friendly Druid neighbor doesn't take pity on them and see to it their life is not confined to some wheelchair.

Greetings!

Yep, my friend! The whole argument is arguing from a position of absolute absurdity. Morons push for this kind of BS. Imagine what anyone rational in the game-world itself would likely think about such morons. They would laugh at them ruthlessly, out-of-hand. These pathetic, weak, helpless types of characters make zero sense in the harsh, real world environment--and they don't somehow make more sense in a harsh, brutal world that also has vampires, bands of savage orcs, and dragons running about seeking to slaughter everything that comes across their path.

The promotion of this nonsense is for the most part promoted by woke, jello-filled morons that are absolutely delusional.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: blackstone on March 26, 2024, 09:39:32 AM
In a fantasy setting, a wheelchair bound PC would be an anomaly because of the various type of magical healing that is available. Even if the affliction is curse related, a Remove Curse spell would do the trick.

The ONLY exception to this would be a VERY special and exceptional case in which the wheelchair bound PC is specifically on a journey to cure him of the affliction. Something that is tied into the overall story of the campaign.

But that's just my two coppers.

Artifact or other remove curse resistant curses is one that could do it.
Or a setting where clerics are few and far between, or too expensive.
Or in a campaign where the PC is actially questing for something better. Replacement legs, a better conveyance, or funds for that advanced cure or super curse removal.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on March 26, 2024, 11:37:07 AM

Quote from: blackstone on March 26, 2024, 09:39:32 AM
In a fantasy setting, a wheelchair bound PC would be an anomaly because of the various type of magical healing that is available.

I disagree, "fantasy" is not interchangeable with "high magic". The Hyborian Age
is a fantasy setting, but I don't think there's a ton of clerics running around curing people. (Although there would probably not be an abundance of wheelchair bound people there for completely different reasons)

AD&D Conan did not have clerics at all. If you lost the use of your legs you had to resort to other means of getting around.

Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2024, 03:57:37 PM

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on March 26, 2024, 12:44:51 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 26, 2024, 12:34:55 PM
Also, even if you had good roads, they would be cobble and you'd shake apart your chair and possibly cripple yourself further. Bad roads would have mud and ruts, which would be wagon sized not wheelchair sized. It would be a nightmare.

yea, wheelchairs are basically only practical in the same places as skateboards.

I'd agree that realistically, in semi-medieval times, getting around would be more by being carried or pushed. However, it still makes sense for a character like Lord Weathermay (from Ravenloft II) to have a wheelchair, though, even if he is often carried or pushed. It gives him a place to sit rather than being dumped prone on the ground, and if well-crafted, it doesn't add much to his weight.

Dirt roads, when not muddy would actually be easier to traverse. Problem is they will not go where you always need to and eventually you have to go offroad.

My great grandparents place was up in the mountains and it was dirt roads all the way once outside the nearest town. That was hell getting to one time we went up during the rain and we got stuck at least once.

Weather is going to be a major hassle. Snow in particular.

Quote from: Omega on March 27, 2024, 09:18:36 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2024, 03:57:37 PM

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on March 26, 2024, 12:44:51 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 26, 2024, 12:34:55 PM
Also, even if you had good roads, they would be cobble and you'd shake apart your chair and possibly cripple yourself further. Bad roads would have mud and ruts, which would be wagon sized not wheelchair sized. It would be a nightmare.

yea, wheelchairs are basically only practical in the same places as skateboards.

I'd agree that realistically, in semi-medieval times, getting around would be more by being carried or pushed. However, it still makes sense for a character like Lord Weathermay (from Ravenloft II) to have a wheelchair, though, even if he is often carried or pushed. It gives him a place to sit rather than being dumped prone on the ground, and if well-crafted, it doesn't add much to his weight.

Dirt roads, when not muddy would actually be easier to traverse. Problem is they will not go where you always need to and eventually you have to go offroad.

My great grandparents place was up in the mountains and it was dirt roads all the way once outside the nearest town. That was hell getting to one time we went up during the rain and we got stuck at least once.

Weather is going to be a major hassle. Snow in particular.

Ruts. Ancient and medieval roads had deep ruts. Dirt roads, stone roads, dry or wet. We don't get the same thing today except sometimes on unmaintained backcountry roads. The ruts were carved over years by thousands of carts. Speaking of carts...a donkey cart would be infinitely more practical than a wheelchair.

Quote from: Gagarth on March 25, 2024, 01:18:17 PM
When the HKs and T-800s turn up who is staying behind to help him/her/xe/zi  with his/her/xem/zim wheelchair.

Being in a wheelchair, taking care of such survivors, and lacking alternatives, is not an unlikely scenario in a post-apocalyptic war against machines. And as long as it's treated as a liability and not some superpower it shouldn't be antithetical to verisimilitude. But at this point simply seeing a wheelchair is apparently just as triggering for yall as those hypothetical 'dogwhistles' the wokies keep complaining about.

This ideological bullshit is so tedious.

Constant gaslighting makes reactionaries of people who wish to end such practice. I also see trannies lurking in every slob who wants to play an anime girl. You have chosen to die by stay-puft marshmellow man and i feel fine.

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 26, 2024, 11:04:09 AM

Quote from: blackstone on March 26, 2024, 09:39:32 AM
In a fantasy setting, a wheelchair bound PC would be an anomaly because of the various type of magical healing that is available. Even if the affliction is curse related, a Remove Curse spell would do the trick.

The ONLY exception to this would be a VERY special and exceptional case in which the wheelchair bound PC is specifically on a journey to cure him of the affliction. Something that is tied into the overall story of the campaign.

But that's just my two coppers.

I would argue your exception would not even apply. It would be cheaper and more dignified to travel via sedan with bearers. If a sedan is above your station, then just a couple of bearers with a hammock or seat between them. Probably much cheaper than a wheelchair and better movement over rough ground.

People forget that machines of convenience were rare until very recently. Human labor used to be much cheaper and more practical.

Sure. Fine. be it a wheelchair or bearers, We're splitting hairs here. The point I raise still is valid.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 27, 2024, 11:21:49 PM
But at this point simply seeing a wheelchair is apparently just as triggering for yall as those hypothetical 'dogwhistles' the wokies keep complaining about.

This ideological bullshit is so tedious.

Yes, pointing out how fucking stupid this crap is certainly is "triggering". Got it.