Quote from: Gagarth on March 25, 2024, 01:18:17 PM
When the HKs and T-800s turn up who is staying behind to help him/her/xe/zi  with his/her/xem/zim wheelchair.

In principal, the Terminator universe is one of the few science-fantasy settings where I think a wheelchair-bound character might make a degree of sense. At least the wheelchair has actually been invented in that setting, and while I doubt the human resistance has the means to build one, I could buy them salvaging an old one. The war with the Machines would doubtless leave a lot of people maimed or otherwise without the use of one or more limbs, and it's plausible to me that enough medical knowledge has survived that you could be maimed in battle and still survive. I've only seen the first two Terminator movies, but based on those, John Conner doesn't strike me as the kind of man who leaves his wounded veterans to die.

Where it gets silly is if they want to claim that character is going on commando raids. But if they were a gunsmith or something, and stayed in the resistance hideout conntributing in some logistical manner, that seems reasonable to me. I don't know enough about the Terminator franchise to know if they could have built her robot legs or somethings, but the impression I get is no.

Mind you, I don't think any of this went through the mind of the illustrator. I fully believe the motivation there was pure virtue signalling and nothing else. Just saying that on paper it's less outrageous than it might seem.

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 25, 2024, 07:25:31 PM

Quote from: Gagarth on March 25, 2024, 01:18:17 PM
When the HKs and T-800s turn up who is staying behind to help him/her/xe/zi  with his/her/xem/zim wheelchair.

In principal, the Terminator universe is one of the few science-fantasy settings where I think a wheelchair-bound character might make a degree of sense. At least the wheelchair has actually been invented in that setting, and while I doubt the human resistance has the means to build one, I could buy them salvaging an old one. The war with the Machines would doubtless leave a lot of people maimed or otherwise without the use of one or more limbs, and it's plausible to me that enough medical knowledge has survived that you could be maimed in battle and still survive. I've only seen the first two Terminator movies, but based on those, John Conner doesn't strike me as the kind of man who leaves his wounded veterans to die.

Where it gets silly is if they want to claim that character is going on commando raids. But if they were a gunsmith or something, and stayed in the resistance hideout conntributing in some logistical manner, that seems reasonable to me. I don't know enough about the Terminator franchise to know if they could have built her robot legs or somethings, but the impression I get is no.

Mind you, I don't think any of this went through the mind of the illustrator. I fully believe the motivation there was pure virtue signalling and nothing else. Just saying that on paper it's less outrageous than it might seem.

Exactly. Wheelchairs were invented circa 1650. I don't think its a huge stretch to have them in a medieval fantasy setting. The problem is not the prosthetics, its the "combat" wheelchair.

I am 100% fine with wheelchairs existing. The thing is, and we all laughed this dead horse into the ground, but there's a reason why that one guard used to be an adventurer but then he got an arrow to the knee and he is not an adventurer anymore.

If your character cannot use his or her legs, for whatever reason, then through magic or other means, he or she should be able to move in a way that is equivalent or better than having legs. Someone said something like having an animal carry you or using a clockwork set of spiderlegs chair or something like that.

Those would be fine. But a wheelchair, even in our modern world, has a lot of limitations. Never mind a hostile environment that is not design to accommodate for a wheelchair and that potentially has hazards and/or monsters out to kill you.

In the same vein, as you said, having people in the Terminator setting maimed and end up in wheelchairs wouldn't be out of place at all. Having said character out with the raid fire team is an issue, since they are expecting to be engaged by the enemy while scrounging for resources or worse, they are actively striking at the enemy in some guerrilla style mission.

A wheelchair bound person is not suited for any of those scenarios and it will be a huge liability for him or herself and for the rest of the squad.

If it wasn't about trying to make people comply, we wouldn't even be talking about this manufactroversy.  People would just do it in their games and that would be that.  The entire public debate only arose because a few people were trying to use shaming and ostracization tactics to browbeat other people into embracing this or at least saying they do.  If not for the attempts to browbeat people into compliance, we wouldn't even be talking about this. 

Quote from: ForgottenF on March 25, 2024, 07:25:31 PM
In principal, the Terminator universe is one of the few science-fantasy settings where I think a wheelchair-bound character might make a degree of sense. At least the wheelchair has actually been invented in that setting, and while I doubt the human resistance has the means to build one, I could buy them salvaging an old one.

Was my thought too. Its a setting where people are going to get maimed and theres little to zero tech to make more advanced cures. So good ol wheelchair.

As for fantasy ones. Wheelchairs go back a fair span of time. They just were alot different way back and if recall right were more dependent on someone to push it as they were not yet so easy to self actuate?

As for the artist. Likely just put it in for woke points, or outrage marketing.

In a fantasy setting, a wheelchair bound PC would be an anomaly because of the various type of magical healing that is available. Even if the affliction is curse related, a Remove Curse spell would do the trick.

The ONLY exception to this would be a VERY special and exceptional case in which the wheelchair bound PC is specifically on a journey to cure him of the affliction. Something that is tied into the overall story of the campaign.

But that's just my two coppers.

Quote from: blackstone on March 26, 2024, 09:39:32 AM
In a fantasy setting, a wheelchair bound PC would be an anomaly because of the various type of magical healing that is available. Even if the affliction is curse related, a Remove Curse spell would do the trick.

The ONLY exception to this would be a VERY special and exceptional case in which the wheelchair bound PC is specifically on a journey to cure him of the affliction. Something that is tied into the overall story of the campaign.

But that's just my two coppers.

I would argue your exception would not even apply. It would be cheaper and more dignified to travel via sedan with bearers. If a sedan is above your station, then just a couple of bearers with a hammock or seat between them. Probably much cheaper than a wheelchair and better movement over rough ground.

People forget that machines of convenience were rare until very recently. Human labor used to be much cheaper and more practical.

Quote from: blackstone on March 26, 2024, 09:39:32 AM
In a fantasy setting, a wheelchair bound PC would be an anomaly because of the various type of magical healing that is available.

I disagree, "fantasy" is not interchangeable with "high magic". The Hyborian Age
is a fantasy setting, but I don't think there's a ton of clerics running around curing people. (Although there would probably not be an abundance of wheelchair bound people there for completely different reasons)

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 26, 2024, 11:04:09 AM
I would argue your exception would not even apply. It would be cheaper and more dignified to travel via sedan with bearers. If a sedan is above your station, then just a couple of bearers with a hammock or seat between them. Probably much cheaper than a wheelchair and better movement over rough ground.

People forget that machines of convenience were rare until very recently. Human labor used to be much cheaper and more practical.

I misread that as being about the 2021 BMW 5 Series 530i with option heated seating again. Topkek.

In all though, I can't really disagree. Being carried would definitely be more practical over any terrain other than a well kept (and dry) road. Not sure about the costs, just because prices on things in fantasy setting are wildly divergent.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on March 26, 2024, 11:43:11 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 26, 2024, 11:04:09 AM
I would argue your exception would not even apply. It would be cheaper and more dignified to travel via sedan with bearers. If a sedan is above your station, then just a couple of bearers with a hammock or seat between them. Probably much cheaper than a wheelchair and better movement over rough ground.

People forget that machines of convenience were rare until very recently. Human labor used to be much cheaper and more practical.

I misread that as being about the 2021 BMW 5 Series 530i with option heated seating again. Topkek.

In all though, I can't really disagree. Being carried would definitely be more practical over any terrain other than a well kept (and dry) road. Not sure about the costs, just because prices on things in fantasy setting are wildly divergent.

Cost aside, if a bearer quits or dies you can just hire any sturdy village lad to replace him. It would be much more difficult to find a blacksmith or carpenter with the specialized knowledge to fix a wheelchair.

Also, even if you had good roads, they would be cobble and you'd shake apart your chair and possibly cripple yourself further. Bad roads would have mud and ruts, which would be wagon sized not wheelchair sized. It would be a nightmare. 

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 26, 2024, 12:34:55 PM
Also, even if you had good roads, they would be cobble and you'd shake apart your chair and possibly cripple yourself further. Bad roads would have mud and ruts, which would be wagon sized not wheelchair sized. It would be a nightmare.

yea, wheelchairs are basically only practical in the same places as skateboards.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on March 26, 2024, 12:44:51 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on March 26, 2024, 12:34:55 PM
Also, even if you had good roads, they would be cobble and you'd shake apart your chair and possibly cripple yourself further. Bad roads would have mud and ruts, which would be wagon sized not wheelchair sized. It would be a nightmare.

yea, wheelchairs are basically only practical in the same places as skateboards.

I'd agree that realistically, in semi-medieval times, getting around would be more by being carried or pushed. However, it still makes sense for a character like Lord Weathermay (from Ravenloft II) to have a wheelchair, though, even if he is often carried or pushed. It gives him a place to sit rather than being dumped prone on the ground, and if well-crafted, it doesn't add much to his weight.

In the bigger picture, though, the argument that any handicapped adventurer would be a liability is completely wrong in my experience.

Quote from: Cipher on March 25, 2024, 07:34:03 PM
In the same vein, as you said, having people in the Terminator setting maimed and end up in wheelchairs wouldn't be out of place at all. Having said character out with the raid fire team is an issue, since they are expecting to be engaged by the enemy while scrounging for resources or worse, they are actively striking at the enemy in some guerrilla style mission.

A wheelchair bound person is not suited for any of those scenarios and it will be a huge liability for him or herself and for the rest of the squad.

If a character has enough compensating power and skills, then they are still an asset to the group and will be taken along even if they sometimes need help. David Johansen gave an example of the GURPS mage who was towed on a string. I've seen many weakling PCs, who would be a liability were it not for their magic. But if their magic (or other talents) are important enough, then the rest of the party will want them along - even if they have to be carried or minded. In real-world history, military teams would carry along a 300-pound cannon with them through very difficult terrain because of the importance of it.

A handicapped hero is more often a trope of superhero comics than fantasy fiction, but the same logic applies to both. Superheroes constantly are involved in dangerous action and need to move across difficult terrain -- but they'll still often want Professor X around since his abilities are so useful. The Transformers brought wheelchair-bound Chip along, and he was critical in attaching his control device to one of the Decepticons in the fight over antimatter Energon cubes. In a Terminator game, if the team only has one genius hacker who can do vital work for the mission, then they'll bring the hacker even if it means carrying them up stairs.

I've found that games are often more interesting if PCs have weaknesses, and they need to help each other regularly.

For me I have no problem if people include wheel chair stuff or things related to disabilities. It is when it is mandatory in some way that it is a problem. But there are definitely lots of movies and books that I draw inspiration from in my campaigns that get into this stuff. The key though is there shouldn't just be one way to do it. I do a lot of wuxia so I will use that as an example. Some campaigns might be like The Four for example, where a character being paralyzed is overcome with a wheel chair or even mechanical legs. Or maybe it's handled like the One Armed Swordsman where the character needs to adapt to over come the challenge of what has happened. The Crippled Avengers is another example that leaps to mind in that same vein (except both the villain and all the heroes are disabled in various ways). But then there are things like Heaven Sword Dragon Sabre where a person is so debilitated they can't do martial arts at all. I think all these kinds of examples address different aspects of the realities of what a disability can mean. And again where I think we run into problems is more when its like "You have to do it this one way" (and it is doubly a problem when it stifles creativity and people trying to explore something in an RPG context).

Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2024, 03:57:37 PM
In the bigger picture, though, the argument that any handicapped adventurer would be a liability is completely wrong in my experience.

Holy red herring Batman, look, a vaguely related but ultimately irrelevant argument!

Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2024, 03:57:37 PM
If a character has enough compensating power and skills, then they are still an asset to the group and will be taken along even if they sometimes need help.

'Sometimes need help' is a woman or child getting tired and needing a hand over a wall. Trying to cross a rubble-strewn hellscape crawling with killer robots, with wheelchair gal, is stupid to the point of destroying verisimilitude.

Watch the T1 flashback, where able bodied people are killed after being visible for a second.

One idea I have for a character (NPC or PC) is a man so strong he crippled himself to actually have a fair fight. Could only work in a fantastical world.