Quote from: Brad on March 20, 2024, 06:49:48 PM
Pretty sure this is one of those Grimtooth's Traps things. I mean, you can justify ANYTHING if you have a good reason. The wheelchair crap in D&D per WotC and other fucking morons has zero justification other than pandering.

It is not even pandering at this point. Its devolved into trolling for a few extra clicks and outrage marketing by pissing off handicapped people.

Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2024, 12:56:43 AM

Quote from: Thor's Nads on March 20, 2024, 02:29:49 AM
The dumbest "controversy" yet. If people want to have magic wheelchairs in their game let them. So what?

That isnt the problem.

Its how the woke push it to the point they are trolling handicapped people.

I wasn't aware that actual handicapped people were also ticked off by this. The Woke can never be Woke enough to satisfy all their little diverse micro-communities they pander to.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2024, 12:17:39 AM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 20, 2024, 04:37:12 AM
The writer, btw, was not wheelchair bound and her 'disability' was self-diagnosed.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 20, 2024, 09:50:57 AM
Her disability is she's a cunt.

BTW they're now a trans man.
...
Because of course they are.

Source? We're talking about Jennifer Kretchmer, right? I don't see anything to suggest that she identifies as a man. She lists "she/they" as pronouns in her profile.

https://linktr.ee/dreamwisp

I've read her adventure in Candlekeep Mysteries, "The Canopic Being". The weird thing to me over the controversy is that it clearly isn't wheelchair accessible. The entrance to the dungeon is down a ladder. Inside the tomb, there are ramps - but that's just like there are ramps in the real-world Egyptian tombs that it's based on. There's no hints of wheelchairs or anything else in the adventure. I liked the mystery side of the adventure, but I'm not sure of the combat balance.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on March 21, 2024, 01:51:50 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 21, 2024, 12:56:43 AM

Quote from: Thor's Nads on March 20, 2024, 02:29:49 AM
The dumbest "controversy" yet. If people want to have magic wheelchairs in their game let them. So what?

That isnt the problem.

Its how the woke push it to the point they are trolling handicapped people.

I wasn't aware that actual handicapped people were also ticked off by this. The Woke can never be Woke enough to satisfy all their little diverse micro-communities they pander to.

Greetings!

Yeah, it was an epic shitstorm when the fucking Liberal Woketards started pushing and promoting homosexuality, trans BS, anal sex, cock-sucking, to children in grade school, and in Deerborn Michigan, the huge MUSLIM population there went berserk. Instantly, the Democratic Party became shit, and Woke policies came under blistering attack.

Muslims--young men, young women, often encouraged by their mothers standing nearby--overtook an entire school district hall, chanting and screaming. The Muslims took to the podiums and told the school teachers and administrators exactly what was acceptable, and what was not.

The Woke media's head exploded.

It is sad that handicapped gamers do not have the numbers or ferocity to resist the Woke Marxists like the Muslims have done.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on March 21, 2024, 02:24:32 AM

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2024, 12:17:39 AM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 20, 2024, 04:37:12 AM
The writer, btw, was not wheelchair bound and her 'disability' was self-diagnosed.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on March 20, 2024, 09:50:57 AM
Her disability is she's a cunt.

BTW they're now a trans man.
...
Because of course they are.

Source? We're talking about Jennifer Kretchmer, right? I don't see anything to suggest that she identifies as a man. She lists "she/they" as pronouns in her profile.

https://linktr.ee/dreamwisp

I've read her adventure in Candlekeep Mysteries, "The Canopic Being". The weird thing to me over the controversy is that it clearly isn't wheelchair accessible. The entrance to the dungeon is down a ladder. Inside the tomb, there are ramps - but that's just like there are ramps in the real-world Egyptian tombs that it's based on. There's no hints of wheelchairs or anything else in the adventure. I liked the mystery side of the adventure, but I'm not sure of the combat balance.

Greetings!

Jhkim, why do you always backpeddle and dance about this? Did you not read the article produced by WOTC--I forgot the name of it, but WOTC did it--where they talked about the importance of including combat wheelchairs. Come on, man. I didn't make this up, and neither did Pundit. Other people--members here, as well, talked about Wheelchair accessible dungeons and combat wheelchairs. OTHER PEOPLE, Jhkim. Clownfish, I think, and others too, like LEGION OF MYTH.

None of them made this BS up, Jhkim.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

For me, the oddest argument in all of this is that the combat wheelchairs would be relevant because there would be people who would not want to be cured even if there was magical available to cure them easily.  Their rationale for this usually amounts to vague gassing on identity and calling people ableist.  I don't believe this for a single fucking second.  Even if they could walk again or regain their eyesight by having someone wave a holy symbol at them and chant for a few seconds, they would choose to remain as they are?  Bullshit.  No one believes that.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on March 21, 2024, 01:51:50 AMThe Woke can never be Woke enough to satisfy all their little diverse micro-communities they pander to.

That's not a bug, its a feature. And it always has been and always will be with those types.

My issue is not the player wanting to use the wheelchair. It's more that they want all the positives and advantages without none of the negatives or disadvantages.


If any DMs implements the second then your ( insert word)ist or gatekeeping them from the hobby.

By all means take a wheelchair your getting the base model. None of that 5 gp BS from Paizo that allows one to suffer no negatives. Don't expect them enemies not to target the characters nor demand the players lug one up the stairs. Or expect any and all surfaces to code.

Quote from: yosemitemike on March 21, 2024, 03:06:18 AM
For me, the oddest argument in all of this is that the combat wheelchairs would be relevant because there would be people who would not want to be cured even if there was magical available to cure them easily.  Their rationale for this usually amounts to vague gassing on identity and calling people ableist.  I don't believe this for a single fucking second.  Even if they could walk again or regain their eyesight by having someone wave a holy symbol at them and chant for a few seconds, they would choose to remain as they are?  Bullshit.  No one believes that.

Spent on summary imo

As someone who wears glasses being told I would not want to be cured is incredibly insulting. Tell me you suffer no disability without telling me because ifor every one or two paralyzed or blind characters who would refuse to be cured. The rest would be.

Quote from: SHARK on March 21, 2024, 02:32:27 AM

Quote from: jhkim on March 21, 2024, 02:24:32 AM
Source? We're talking about Jennifer Kretchmer, right? I don't see anything to suggest that she identifies as a man. She lists "she/they" as pronouns in her profile.

https://linktr.ee/dreamwisp

I've read her adventure in Candlekeep Mysteries, "The Canopic Being". The weird thing to me over the controversy is that it clearly isn't wheelchair accessible. The entrance to the dungeon is down a ladder. Inside the tomb, there are ramps - but that's just like there are ramps in the real-world Egyptian tombs that it's based on. There's no hints of wheelchairs or anything else in the adventure. I liked the mystery side of the adventure, but I'm not sure of the combat balance.

Jhkim, why do you always backpeddle and dance about this? Did you not read the article produced by WOTC--I forgot the name of it, but WOTC did it--where they talked about the importance of including combat wheelchairs. Come on, man. I didn't make this up, and neither did Pundit. Other people--members here, as well, talked about Wheelchair accessible dungeons and combat wheelchairs. OTHER PEOPLE, Jhkim.

I'm not the one who is fucking backpedaling. I remember very specifically from three years ago when this topic came up. Here was the claim:

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 04:35:00 PM

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2021, 10:47:20 AM
If Thompson got her original combat wheelchair added to official D&D, then yes, I would be wrong. Can you give a link or reference that the original combat wheelchair was added to official D&D?

The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.

Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186109/#msg1186109

This was false. There were no wheelchairs of any kind in Candlekeep Mysteries, and the dungeons were not wheelchair-accessible -- not even "The Canopic Being".

I have never claimed that no one in the world has ever talked about combat wheelchairs. I agree that Sara Thompson posted her homebrew rules for the combat wheelchair, and it was reported on in Polygon. And there have been a handful of D&D characters in wheelchairs - like Lord Byron Weathermay back in 1986 as Armchair Gamer noted.

But some of the claims made have been flatly false. After checking on the claims about Candlekeep Mysteries, I am wary about what is being said, and I'd like to see sources for what people are saying.

Quote from: jhkim on March 21, 2024, 02:24:32 AM
We're talking about Jennifer Kretchmer, right?

No.

Quote from: jhkim on March 21, 2024, 01:11:00 PM
I agree that Sara Thompson posted her homebrew rules for the combat wheelchair,

I think you mean Mark Thompson.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan on March 21, 2024, 05:23:32 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 21, 2024, 02:24:32 AM
We're talking about Jennifer Kretchmer, right?

No.

OK, I think you mixed up the references here. In post #27, Insane Nerd Ramblings talked about the author of the Candlekeep Mysteries scenario -- which is Jennifer Kretchmer. Here's the post:

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 20, 2024, 04:37:12 AM
My 5E group actually ran through that moronic adventure created for a 'wheelchair accessible dungeon' (Candlekeep Mysteries, IIRC) and it was just as retarded as you would imagine. One of our players, a woke twat who played the exact same grumpy/bitchy character every single time, was friends on Twitter with the writer. The writer, btw, was not wheelchair bound and her 'disability' was self-diagnosed.

In reply #47, you replied to this saying that the author was a trans man. But you were talking about a different person than the post you replied to.

Kretchmer is the designer of the scenario "The Canopic Being" in Candlekeep Mysteries, published by WotC. There are no wheelchairs in the scenario. The dungeon does have ramps like real-life Egyptian tombs do, and was evidently inspired by the author's wheelchair use, but as published it is entered via a ladder so it isn't wheelchair accessible.

Thompson is the designer of the self-published homebrew "Combat Wheelchair". As far as I can tell, Thompson has never written for WotC.

Honestly, I think the argument that people that are disabled such that they require a wheelchair would be easily healed is a weak one. Primarily because it assumes that we're talking about a relatively high magic setting, to be fair most of this discourse is centered around 5e which is basically a superhero setting, but leaves out cases where the setting will be much lower magic. If you'rre speaking of a lower magic setting, such as those found in Conan etc, then the "3rd level cleric spell performed in a curch at cost" argument loses its power completely.

Rather, I prefer the argument is that dungeoneering and other forms of adventuring require a certain level of skills to be attempted, and being wheelchair bound is going to either greatly hamper or even preclude much of that, and handwaving those challenges such people would face does nothing but tokenize them. Requiring a wheelchair is a disability, and to demand the whole world to bend over backwards to accomodate it is an absolute disservice.

This will vary game by game too, a Call of Cthulhu game taking place entirely within Miskatonic University is going to be much more accesible to a wheelchair bound character than an expedition Beyond the Mountiains of Madness. Players should create characters suitable to the game they're playing, and demanding that a gamemaster change the game to suit your particular character idea is unacceptable.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on March 21, 2024, 06:08:43 PMHonestly, I think the argument that people that are disabled such that they require a wheelchair would be easily healed is a weak one. Primarily because it assumes that we're talking about a relatively high magic setting, to be fair most of this discourse is centered around 5e which is basically a superhero setting, but leaves out cases where the setting will be much lower magic. If you'rre speaking of a lower magic setting, such as those found in Conan etc, then the "3rd level cleric spell performed in a curch at cost" argument loses its power completely.

We have been talking about Dungeons & Dragons and don't fucking pretend we haven't. So take your Goalpost Move and Motte & Bailey and cram it.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 21, 2024, 06:20:30 PM
We have been talking about Dungeons & Dragons and don't fucking pretend we haven't. So take your Goalpost Move and Motte & Bailey and cram it.

Like I said, the discourse is centered around 5e, and the power level of the setting means that that argument has power. I never made that argument because I don't care about 5e. I made a stronger argument, which applies not only in the 5e case, but to other settings as well. I'm not moving goal posts, and I'm not disagreeing with you. Calm down.