A number of city-oriented classes showing up in some WotC products prompted me to think about whether fantasy RPG cities are big enough and numerous enough to engender such things. I'm thinking of the Urban Ranger and Urban Druid, and the Vigilante, Scar Enforcer, and Urban Soul.
I'm just curious as to whether I'm alone in my feeling that there just aren't enough cities of large enough size in any given setting to cause such specialized classes to come about. In my own homebrew, I've always assumed there are some cities with several million people living in them (I rationalize that magic, arcane and divine, makes them viable). I've noticed that in many published settings that the largest metropolises can have a population of less than 100,000, and there may be only one or two cities even approaching that size in the whole setting. Since most towns or settlements would be much smaller, I just can't see entire urban classes, especially druids and rangers, coming into being in such a low-population-density setting.
Actually, I don't really have a problem with them myself. My setting can support such things. I guess I'm just curious as to how they can be rationalized in D&D, which seems to assume relatively low populations. This is more of a matter for discussion which might generate some campaign setting ideas.
You can't think in modern terms. You really need to nock off a zero or two from your thinking when your doing fantasy. Population densities much lower. Hell even the FR has only 1 or 2 cities with populations anywere's near 1 million.
And if you looked at the worlds most populous cities I think you would see that population would drop sharply after the top 5-10 cities.
Edit: Hmmmm...I just looked up the worlds most populous cities and may have to adjust the numbers. Perhaps a big drop after the top 30 cities.
I get that aspect of it, but I guess where my suspension of disbelief weakens is when we see companies put out material like the Vigilante, from WotC's Complete Adventurer. It's essentially a "Batman" type of character. I just don't see cities with low populations like the ones we're talking about spawning such a thing. It's like if Batman patrolled Mayberry.
One thing is that a city doesn't necessarilly need a huge amount of native citizens. I read somewhere that London's population doubles in daytime with all the people working there but living elsewhere.
In a fantasy city with only 500k citizens might at any point have double that number passing through, living there only for a week or two before going back home to Ass-Backward Valley.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonA number of city-oriented classes showing up in some WotC products prompted me to think about whether fantasy RPG cities are big enough and numerous enough to engender such things. I'm thinking of the Urban Ranger and Urban Druid, and the Vigilante, Scar Enforcer, and Urban Soul.
I'm just curious as to whether I'm alone in my feeling that there just aren't enough cities of large enough size in any given setting to cause such specialized classes to come about.
I have always used the examples you have given as a
unique situation kind of thing. You are absolutely right when you say that
realism (for lack of a better term) is compromised with the existence of some of these classes in terms of the size of the population that some fantasy cities hold.
Thats why I view these classes as a one of a kind situation. They sometimes work in my campaigns as mysterious npcs or if the players wish it as an avenue to branch into something different in their characters career/lifestyle.
Off course I could very well just ignore these classes entirely, but I feel some of them are interesting enough to adopt into my campaign, although these classes/individuals would be extremely rare - they might even be the only ones of their kind - they do add an exotic flavour to the whole campaign esp when it comes to the bigger cities. Where secrets are buried and everyone has a story to tell (maybe) :)
Regards,
David R
I like them too, so that's what got me to thinking about them. In my own campaign world, there are very large cities (not a lot, but some), with millions of inhabitants, so such concepts can work there. It's just that most published settings I'm familiar with have a different idea about what constitutes a metropolis than I do. I understand why the cities are so small, I was just wondering how some of these character concepts were rationalized by others.
Speaking of cities - if I was going to run my next campaign anywhere but Dusk, I think I'd choose Ravnica. Still might make for an interesting planeshift - think medieval Coruscant with more magic than Netheril. :D
I'm not familiar with Ravnica.
Ravnica is the setting for the current Magic block. It's a planet that's all covered in city, with said city ruled by ten guilds (each corresponding to a pair of MtG colors).
Magic block? I don't know what that is, either.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonMagic block? I don't know what that is, either.
A block in Magic the Gathering consists of three expansions (one big and two small) coming out over the course of a year. The most common Magic format, Standard, allows cards from the current block, the one before it, plus the latest "core" set. A single block is generally set in one world, and explores different aspects of the game. The over-arching theme for the Ravnica block, for example, is multi-colored cards. Previous blocks have focused on:
- Legendary things (that is, things you can only have one copy of at a time), and Spirits vs. Mortals. (Kamigawa block, inspired by Japan)
- Artifacts (Mirrodin block)
- Creature types (Onslaught block)
- Graveyard interactions (Odyssey block)
- Multi-color cards (Invasion block)
Yes, they had another multi-color block five years ago, but they're doing things a little differently this time around.
Quote from: DackeA block in Magic the Gathering consists of three expansions (one big and two small) coming out over the course of a year. The most common Magic format, Standard, allows cards from the current block, the one before it, plus the latest "core" set. A single block is generally set in one world, and explores different aspects of the game. The over-arching theme for the Ravnica block, for example, is multi-colored cards. Previous blocks have focused on:
- Legendary things (that is, things you can only have one copy of at a time), and Spirits vs. Mortals. (Kamigawa block, inspired by Japan)
- Artifacts (Mirrodin block)
- Creature types (Onslaught block)
- Graveyard interactions (Odyssey block)
- Multi-color cards (Invasion block)
Yes, they had another multi-color block five years ago, but they're doing things a little differently this time around.
Wow. I remember when Magic used to be understandable. :emot-geno:
Okay, Ravnica sounds like the kind of city that would be really cool to set a campaign in. If I'm not mistaken MtG is known for it's really good artwork, right? So is there any art of the city online ? I would really like to see what this city looks likes :)
Regards,
David R
Check www.wizards.com/magic (http://www.wizards.com/magic) for artwork. You can find a great deal of art in the "Magic Arcana" archives (and in some of the other articles as well, but looking through Arcana will give you the most art for your time, including some wallpapers), and I think if you look around you can find a graphical spoiler of the recent sets (that is, pictures of all the cards).
Oh, and for general city images, the land cards in the set are pretty good.
Thanks. Some of the pieces have given me some weird avenues I want to explore. My poor players :)
Regards,
David R
This thread hasn't answered the question I was hoping it would.
What's a "Trope?" :confused:
Quote from: AlgoleiThis thread hasn't answered the question I was hoping it would.
What's a "Trope?" :confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope
Here:
Quote from: specifically from that Wikipedia entryIn literature, a trope is a familiar and repeated symbol, meme, theme, motif, style, character or thing that permeates a particular type of literature. They are usually tied heavily to genre. For example, tropes in horror literature and film include the mad scientist or a dark and stormy night. Tropes can also be plots or events, such as the science fiction trope of an alien invasion that is deterred at the last minute.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonA number of city-oriented classes showing up in some WotC products prompted me to think about whether fantasy RPG cities are big enough and numerous enough to engender such things. I'm thinking of the Urban Ranger and Urban Druid, and the Vigilante, Scar Enforcer, and Urban Soul.
The way I see it they may not fit in very well in the Realms or Greyhawk but they seem well suited to something like Sharn in the Eberron setting. Or, dare I say it, Sigil. They don't have to fit in every setting. But options are always good. And like you said, they fit in your own setting. I kind of think it's good that not everything WotC writes fits into their core setting.
While 1 million + cities aren't historically acurate for the usual era of fantasy settings a more Steam-punkish setting may have a few of them. Think of New Crobuzon, from Perdido Street Station. I personally like a renaissance level of tech in my fantasy. God know you see enough anachronistic tropes in vanilla D&D that a few more won't hurt. So, while they may not be the norm they certainly are out there.
Many years ago I created a fantasy world inspired by the original Thieves' World anthologies, among other things. I decided I wanted really big cities, so I started my campaign off in a city the size of modern Glasgow with twice as many people (1 million over 500,000 today). And that at an approximately renaissance tech level.
Sometime thereafter I was lucky enough to meet Terry Pratchett at an SF con in Glasgow itself. I'd heard that he played RPG's, so I decided to put to him a question. I explained the basic premise of my setting and of the great city, then asked him what single thing he could think of that would make my idea plausible.
He paused for thought for a few moments, then replied, "Have good drains."
I was (and remain) well satisfied. ;)
Quote from: JMcL63He paused for thought for a few moments, then replied, "Have good drains."
"Plumbing, it's the newest thing. Pipe the shit right out of your house." -paraphrasing from History of the World.
When I think of the Urban Avenger, I conjure images of Greyhawk as EGG wrote it, a sprawling city of mystery. The people count matters less than the foreign, unknown, and mysterious nature of the city. Sanctuary from Thieves World is another city I see having these people.
It's not about overall population, it's about a city suffering great hardship, with an almost emotional character of it's own that pervades it's denizens.
Quote from: JanosIt's not about overall population, it's about a city suffering great hardship, with an almost emotional character of it's own that pervades it's denizens.
Maybe, but even so, it strikes me as rather ridiculous for such small population center to produce such a character. Like I said above, it'd be like Batman patrolling Mayberry. But that's just my impression. Obviously others disagree.
Quote from: ColonelHardissonMaybe, but even so, it strikes me as rather ridiculous for such small population center to produce such a character. Like I said above, it'd be like Batman patrolling Mayberry. But that's just my impression. Obviously others disagree.
I guess it also depends on how different the city dwellers are from the rest of the population. A city of 20,000 where almost everyone has specialized, industrial jobs with a unique fantastic urban environment would give rise to its own class or prestige class.
Modern small towns aren't very urban, most of the people are farmers living in town or have the same outlook as farmers. That may or may not be the case in a fantastic medieval city.
By the way, I love the image of Batman patrolling Mayberry. I imagine Floyd and Gomer discussing the events of the day while Batman crouches hidden two stories above them. Batman would get stuck alot as there aren't enough shadowy buildings to hide on. Imagine the trouble Spiderman would have on a visit with no tall buildings to swing from.
I imagine Batman would have a hard time of it. As there is no big crime to fight, he must turn to increasingly smaller fare to justify his existence. Before he knows it, he's patrolling the night to make sure all cars are parked between 6 and 18 inches from the curb. His combat skills and physique atrophy from lack of use. He soon devolves into Barney Fife.
Quote from: NicephorusImagine the trouble Spiderman would have on a visit with no tall buildings to swing from.
I distincly recall a Spider-Man comic where he had to go to the suburbs for some reason. I think he had to hitch a ride on a bus.
That must have been early 90s/late 80s some time.
I can't see justifying those classes in the base settings, no. Of course, I can't see Greyhawk being as small as it is -- if it's the hub of the fucking Flaeness, it should have at least hundreds of thousands of people.
There is a certain point in any game where you have to decide how much research into how the world works do you want to do before playing. Some research is a good idea, but every person running a game can't research everything. That's how you get Batman in a city of under a million and so on.
Have you ever sat down and tried to figure out if there was enough farmland to feed everyone in your worlds?
Do all your dungeons have recreation rooms, storage, bathrooms, laundry, kitchens, etc...?
Your best bet, from my perspective, is look at the kind of details that are important to you and your players. Try and cover for and make sense of those sorts of things and take your best guess on the rest. An example would be I game with lots of computer geeks. If we play modern, future or sci-fi there is more to the digital side of things than there might otherwise be. The base knowledge of the players encourages/demands it. Our botany, on the other hand, is pretty limited so you could hand wave just about anything invovlving rare herbs and plants without anyong caring.
Quote from: AcinonyxWow. I remember when Magic used to be understandable. :emot-geno:
Heh, I was just thinging the same thing about D&D (i've been out of (non-homebrew)RPG's since around 1999 and just getting started again)