Quote from: Longshadow;1047431I think dwarves are my least favorite standard race. With elves they at least made an effort to make them different in most settings. Dwarves are pretty much identical wherever you go.

I think that the Warhammer Fantasy drunk Scotish dwarves have spread so far people have forgotten a bit of how different Tolkien's LotR dwarves were from that. It's easy to play up those elements (greed, insularity, dourness, etc.) and get something different that feels fresh.

Quote from: Daztur;1048583I think that the Warhammer Fantasy drunk Scotish dwarves have spread so far people have forgotten a bit of how different Tolkien's LotR dwarves were from that. It's easy to play up those elements (greed, insularity, dourness, etc.) and get something different that feels fresh.

I played in a 3.5 D&D game where the dwarves were played closer to Russians, complete with a (probably unrealistic) Russian mafia analog. Their grim culture frowned upon bragging, and while they still drank--even heavily--public drunkenness was both a crime and brought then great shame. Somehow, I think D&D5e would try this with duergar rather than the hill & mountain boys.

Quote from: HappyDaze;1048586I played in a 3.5 D&D game where the dwarves were played closer to Russians, complete with a (probably unrealistic) Russian mafia analog. Their grim culture frowned upon bragging, and while they still drank--even heavily--public drunkenness was both a crime and brought then great shame. Somehow, I think D&D5e would try this with duergar rather than the hill & mountain boys.

You're not properly of Slavic descent unless you can be totally blitzed while the people around you can't even tell that you've been drinking.

Quote from: jeff37923;1046683Against players who tell me they want to play Kender, Malkavians, Gungans, or Ewoks? You bet your fuckin' ass.

Quote from: Daztur;1048583I think that the Warhammer Fantasy drunk Scotish dwarves have spread so far people have forgotten a bit of how different Tolkien's LotR dwarves were from that. It's easy to play up those elements (greed, insularity, dourness, etc.) and get something different that feels fresh.

I kind of dislike what I know about the orcs and dwarves in both Warhammer and Warcraft. They seem charicature-ish and comic-book-like.

Really it just makes Warhammer orks more terrifying.  These guys love to fight, they're a bunch of idiot hooligans, but they don't feel pain like we do, and they are bigger and tougher and don't need to eat as much so you can't starve them out or out wait them, and they're coming just to fight you for fighting's sake and if you surrender they'll just mistreat you just to try and get you to where you'll fight so they can crush you.  They're the high school bully writ large.  They're every abuse and humiliation heaped on your shoulders until you break and they delight in it.  They love it, and they love the way you cry and wail and suffer, they just love it and it makes them laugh.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1048400Drow also suck. Any race where the Player Characters almost always play AGAINST the race's archetype sucks.

Drow in Forgotten Realms suck, sure. It's either play against the archtype or see how many babies you can kick and puppies you can rape before the Paladin murders you.

Drow in other settings that don't carbon copy the psychotic little buggers are ok though.

Quote from: Skarg;1048724I kind of dislike what I know about the orcs and dwarves in both Warhammer and Warcraft. They seem charicature-ish and comic-book-like.

Warhammer Dwarves are Orcs are supposed to be charicatures. That's pretty much the point. Warcraft I couldn't say, since they rewrite them constantly.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1048400Drow also suck. Any race where the Player Characters almost always play AGAINST the race's archetype sucks.

So anyone who plays adventuring Dwarves, Hobbits, Elves suck too?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1048919So anyone who plays adventuring Dwarves, Hobbits, Elves suck too?

No, because being an adventurer is a default premise of the game. Unless the culture of any of those was "adventuring of any kind is strictly forbidden".

Quote from: RPGPundit;1049114No, because being an adventurer is a default premise of the game. Unless the culture of any of those was "adventuring of any kind is strictly forbidden".

90+% of human populations in medieval society were peasants/serfs tied to the land and forbidden to own weapons or armor. The clergy were largely tied to their parishes/diocese and the nobles had to manage and protect the the land they swore their oaths to their overlord for in an area before rapid communication was possible. Other than a once in a lifetime pilgrimage or military campaign few of these people traveled more than a league or two from where they were born.

The lifestyle to which the typical D&D adventurer belongs in actual medieval society would that of the outlaw which, by definition, fell outside the social norms of human society. At best in late medieval times they might qualify as a mercenary company... which was barely a step up from banditry in terms of society unless they had a current patron for their services.

Humans as a whole AREN'T adventurers or heroes. That's one of the reasons we tell stories about those few of us who are. Human heroes and adventurers are probably about as rare among humans as Drizzt is among the Drow. They are the 1-in-a-million exceptions that prove the rule.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1049114No, because being an adventurer is a default premise of the game. Unless the culture of any of those was "adventuring of any kind is strictly forbidden".

Isn't that Hobbits? Every hobbit in Tolkien's books falls into one of two categories:
1). Never leaves home and thinks Bilbo is crazy for leaving home and making friends with dwarves and elves and wizards.
2). Leaves home and constantly wishes they were back in the Shire doing nothing in their local pub.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1048730Warhammer Dwarves are Orcs are supposed to be charicatures. That's pretty much the point. Warcraft I couldn't say, since they rewrite them constantly.

Warhammer orcs and dwarves are fine in Warhammer, but it gets really freaking annoying when they start infecting every other RPG to the point that the default assumption of dwarf has become "drunk Scotsman" somehow.

Quote from: Chris24601;104917690+% of human populations in medieval society were peasants/serfs tied to the land and forbidden to own weapons or armor. The clergy were largely tied to their parishes/diocese and the nobles had to manage and protect the the land they swore their oaths to their overlord for in an area before rapid communication was possible. Other than a once in a lifetime pilgrimage or military campaign few of these people traveled more than a league or two from where they were born.

The lifestyle to which the typical D&D adventurer belongs in actual medieval society would that of the outlaw which, by definition, fell outside the social norms of human society. At best in late medieval times they might qualify as a mercenary company... which was barely a step up from banditry in terms of society unless they had a current patron for their services.

Humans as a whole AREN'T adventurers or heroes. That's one of the reasons we tell stories about those few of us who are. Human heroes and adventurers are probably about as rare among humans as Drizzt is among the Drow. They are the 1-in-a-million exceptions that prove the rule.

Which is why setting material that supposes that standard PC-style adventurering bands (as opposed to mercenary or trading companies) are a recognized social institution. It's like running an A-Team campaign and having a list of crack commando units sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit listed in the fucking phone book. Really makes me cringe. Either have the PCs be part of some kind of normal historical group (drinking buddies of the local iron age warlord or whatever) or have them be a weird one-off exception in the world.

Quote from: Daztur;1049251Which is why setting material that supposes that standard PC-style adventurering bands (as opposed to mercenary or trading companies) are a recognized social institution. It's like running an A-Team campaign and having a list of crack commando units sent to prison by a military court for a crime they didn't commit listed in the fucking phone book. Really makes me cringe. Either have the PCs be part of some kind of normal historical group (drinking buddies of the local iron age warlord or whatever) or have them be a weird one-off exception in the world.

My default assumption is always the exception route, though more one-in-a-million than one-off. Which is also why I really don't see a problem with more fantastical PC options either.

Myth and fantasy are rife with tales where one of the protagonist's companions is something well outside the norm; a demigod, a dragon, a fairy, a centaur, a golem, the one good member of an evil species, an angel in disguise (the latter is right out of Tolkein) etc.

Role-playing games may not be stories, but one of the appeals is to create a fantastical character like those from stories. If someone wants to play one of those other one-in-a-million character types I say go ahead and let them.

It's also worth noting that not all of the non-human options needs to follow the same ratio of 'heroes-to-normals' as humans do. For some it could even be that EVERY member of the species is 'heroic' in ability (ie. there are no dragon commoners; every dragon is one-in-a-million). Just because a species is exceptionally rare doesn't mean a PC can't be a member of that species of you're using the 'PC's are rare and exceptional' model for the system.

The only way limiting the species options to 'Men' (ie. humans, elves, dwarves, hobbit expies) makes sense is if you are going the 'normal and common part of society' route where the PC's aren't in any way exceptional compared to the average member of their species.

Personally, I don't think D&D (particularly 3e and 5e) models the latter very well; not with spellcasting being the expected solution to so many problems; 4e outright rejected this approach and presented its system as one where every PC is intended to be a once-in-an-Age hero (ironically, it was the one that could best model a completely mundane world with only non-magical human PC's and not need massive house-ruling).

A plausible medieval society can exist when less than one-in-a-million people have even a single level in a spellcasting class; where a cleric is akin to a miracle-working saint and a wizard is a legendary figure as rare as a dragon. It falls apart when every village priest has cleric levels and the village herbalist has levels in wizard and every singer at the tavern has class levels in bard.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1049114No, because being an adventurer is a default premise of the game. Unless the culture of any of those was "adventuring of any kind is strictly forbidden".

Have you actually read D&D Dwarf or Elf lore?  Dwarves are often clannish traditionalists with a comfortably (for them) rigid caste system that one is born in and is expected to be happy and who shun the outside world.  Meaning the average Dwarf is going to look at an adventuring one like he's a freak that needs to leave.  Now.

Non-Drow Elves are no less restrictive, despite their flighty, 'free love' and generally nice seeming demeanor, they prefer their own kind and view outsiders with distrust and benevolent contempt (kinda like the Japanese, actually...  Huhn...) and anyone who wants to leave is often seen as a wayward child that will grow out of it.  They might indulge it, but they'll never approve of it.

And someone already explained Hobbits, who I will never understand the appeal of.

Do you want to know why the 'Adventure Coupon' style of adventure resonates so much with a lot of gamers?  

Because by and large, humans tend to not really be that adventurous.  We, like Hobbits, prefer to stay home where it's safe and comfortable, but can be roused to action when something big and major happens, thus 'The Adventure Coupon'.

By definition, Player Characters ARE the 'special snowflakes' of the Fantasy genre.  They go where most of their own kind never will.

My point stands.

In theory I prefer PCs to not be special snowflakes and be something that makes sense and is "normal" in the context of the society that they're in. Stuff like the companions of an iron age warlord, or some mercenary scum hired as caravan guards, or some local boys living in their home village who might be called on to help if there's a crisis since the local baron is useless, or the local baron and his staff.

But the traditional roving band of murderhobos works well in game terms and it's fun. Heroic murderhobos (as opposed to a band of bandits) don't make much sense as a social institution so if the PCs are going to be murderhobos then having them be some kind of rare one-off makes sense since it allows a mode of play that's fun without twisting the setting into knots to explain them. Just let the PCs be special, don't have the innkeep start saying things like "another band of adventureres, eh, you're the third ones this week, hope you have your adventuring licenses in order" that just sucks all the fun out of murderhoboing.