Greetings!

Ahh, yes. The "Stupid Train" that drives Woke people and Woke ideology is in full gear at WOTC. That Stupid Train won't be slowing down, so get used to the constant stupidity, and the constant absurdity. That is what Woke does. The medical research has shown that Liberal Woke people are in "Therapy" and on medical psychological drugs at far higher percentages than Conservative people. So, yeah. Woke people are fucking emotionally fragile, crazy, delusional, and mentally unstable.

WE can see all of these aspects with the staff at WOTC. Loathing, being hate-filled for normal, WHITE people, being delusional, depraved, emotional, feminine, and mentally unstable.

Gay, fat, MExican Orcs now doesn't surprise me. As others have cited, wasn't WOTC crying about Orcs being BLACK?

I know, I know. Never mind the fact that in most DM's worlds,--as well as in Forgotten Realms, there are already one or several diverse, black-skinned Human cultures--but somehow, ORCS ARE BLACK!!!!!!

It is that delusion, Marxism, and insanity again that afflicts the Woke.

I've had black-skinned Humans in my own Thandor world forever. Decades. No one I know has ever thought of "ORCS ARE BLACK!!!"

And now, WOTC believes that Orcs are Mexican. Is that "Whitewashing" then? Somehow, making Orcs lighter and "not Black" so as to somehow socially elevate them as a group? But if the Orcs are Black, what is wrong with being Black? Why do the Orcs need to be changed from being Black to being Mexican?

*Laughing*

It all just gets stupider and stupider, you see?

Aside from the insane political and cultural messaging going on with WOTC artwork, GEESUS! The artwork looks gay as fuck, and also cartoon-like. Gay fucking cartoons aimed at kids.

That "Stupid-Train" just keeps on rolling! *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: daft on June 23, 2024, 04:35:26 AMSo, is this a product that will actually sell, or have they made it to rake in ESG money as a safe bet to profit? The tone of this art is, to put it mildly, more in line with depicting a generic liberal US city, with the only fantasy part being swapping humans for various disney-fied races. It looks like a complete joke, but maybe there is a real market among the young progressives?

Those who liked the playtest are all for 5e. Problem is they are hellbent on insisting fake 5e is "backwards compatible" because "you can choose to use the old rules instead." Jesus wept every fucking term gets twisted out of shape.

Quote from: Naburimannu on June 23, 2024, 05:37:56 AMD&D has always been rather anachronistic

Blackmoor opens with a straight up secret aliens from space plot.
Greyhawk has descendants of displaced people from Earth AND crashed alien starships. As does Mystara.
Red Steel has elements of Westerns and Renascence France/Spain.

Probably more. Few modules have some pretty out of place stuff for standard fantasy. But right at home with alot of pulp fantasy.

Quote from: jeff37923 on June 23, 2024, 06:23:19 AM

Quote from: daft on June 23, 2024, 04:35:26 AMSo, is this a product that will actually sell, or have they made it to rake in ESG money as a safe bet to profit? The tone of this art is, to put it mildly, more in line with depicting a generic liberal US city, with the only fantasy part being swapping humans for various disney-fied races. It looks like a complete joke, but maybe there is a real market among the young progressives?

Could the art be a deliberate joke to try and get rage clicks? WotC wanting to piss off normal people who are not the target audience and the art won't show up in the final product?

Almost certainly. But also for woke points. But we know they are obsessed with outrage marketing still and are lying through their teeth at every turn.

Would not surprise me if that little vid was not tailor made to generate outrage and none of that art is actually in the book.

Quote from: Naburimannu on June 23, 2024, 05:37:56 AMD&D has always been rather anachronistic

D&D also has a history of chasing trends, often foolishly so. They cleaned up the game's image for 2nd edition only to have the 90s go on to be the edgiest decade ever; 4th edition bet on the MMO trend shortly before the relevance of MMOs started to die, and so on.

I wonder if that isn't happening again here. This highly diverse, very safe, comfy progressive-urbanite fantasy aesthetic was never all that popular, but whatever moment it might have had seems to have passed. Woke entertainment properties have been flopping at an increasing rate in recent years, and you see more and more pushback on them from mainstream commentary and the wider internet (e.g., the controversies over The Acolyte and Dragon Age: Veilguard). Products in this vein keep coming out, but they don't generate much hype, and they seem to only be allowed to continue because the ESG money makes up for the losses.

I don't read much in the way of contemporary fantasy fiction (honestly who does?), but from the more culturally dominant spheres of videogaming and the internet, there are a few things that look to me like being trends: 1) grandiose, baroque dark fantasy (chasing the success of Dark Souls and Warhammer 40k), 2) Historically or folklore-influenced fantasy (inspired by the Witcher and probably a bit by Game of Thrones), and 3) Waifu hornybait (driven I guess by anime and internet memes, a well as the hero-shooter and MOBA trends, stuff like Genshin Impact, etc).

Whatever vibe they're going for with this new D&D, it isn't any of those things.

Quote from: Omega on June 23, 2024, 09:17:11 AMAlmost certainly. But also for woke points. But we know they are obsessed with outrage marketing still and are lying through their teeth at every turn.

Would not surprise me if that little vid was not tailor made to generate outrage and none of that art is actually in the book.

But this begs the question: "Why?"  Why do they continue to outrage market, especially by advertising things that they have no intention of actually publishing?

Does this result in more sales?  That may be hard to quantify.  It is possible that some people will buy the books to "own the chuds" who wouldn't have before.  There are assuredly some people who would have bought the books who will not, just because of the marketing.  Even with internal numbers, there's no way to quantify what people might have done.  But WotC has seen a decline in sales of D&D.  That is an objective fact.  The different ways to interpret that decline may differ, but none of WotC's marketing has changed that decline.

Does it result in "brand damage"?  Most assuredly.  First, when a company is already damaged based on their actions (the OGL fiasco, etc.), brand damage is much easier to incur and much harder to remove.  At this point, there is a large part of the RPG fanbase that has no interest in any new products from D&D/WotC.  Now, this damage can be repaired, but that repair will not be accomplished by courting more controversy.  Controversy itself, even if minor or unwarranted, acts to hinder brand recovery.  So, by constantly inserting controversial material in the marketing, WotC is continuously giving present fans reasons to second guess their fandom (if you keep expanding what is not "acceptable," eventually most fans will find a reason to identify with the outgroup).

So if you can't really demonstrate solid and measurable revenue increases due to the marketing, but you can show solid examples of brand damage, why do they still do it?

I think the reason is complicated.  First, I think the people suffering from the consequences of the brand damage are not the same people as those who are making the decisions.  The investors are losing potential profit, but the board is controlled by large, institutional investors who are more tolerant of losses for the purpose of ideological demonstration.  Second, I think the people making D&D live in a Pacific Northwest intellectual bubble.  Everyone they know believes the same way that they do.  The only interaction with opposing ideas occur while dog-piling on heretics on social media.  These folks see themselves as the woke equivalent of Jehovah's Witnesses; they are duty bound to force their religion down your throat.  It's what make them "good" people.

This leads into the third, and I think most important reason.  The people making the decisions to market this way have a truly unrealistic appraisal of their power and influence.  They believe their own press.  A good analogy is the media-entertainment companies like Disney.  Once you recognize that 7 companies own 95% of all the media outlets in the US, it becomes easy to think that these companies have a stranglehold on public discourse.  So, Disney continues to make woke movies because, in their mind, you have nowhere else to go.  If you want to watch movies, you'll eventually have to bend the knee to them ideologically.  So you can review "bomb" their media over-and-over, but eventually you'll give in and think what they want you to think (according to them).  Wotc is the "big dog" of RPGs.  They feel like they have the power to force you to play the "right" way (or to not play the wrong way).  And what are you going to do about it?  They are D&D!

I think, in the long run, WotC (and companies like Disney) are wrong.  People don't need RPGs/movies/TV shows/etc.  They can find alternate forms of entertainment.  So WotC's bet on outrage marketing is a losing proposition.  They aren't going to force most people to "think right."  They are just going to run people away from D&D.  Which provides for opportunities for others to profit off WotC's mistakes.  But, as long as those making the decisions are losing their jobs or incomes, I don't expect this attitude to change...

Quote from: Naburimannu on June 23, 2024, 05:37:56 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 23, 2024, 03:40:00 AM

Quote from: jhkim on June 23, 2024, 12:55:34 AMThe illustration has a character in suit-and-tie and the person in the wheelchair has glasses and a pistol, so it looks like it is from a more modern setting - like Gothic Earth or Ravenloft.

Its not from Masque of the Red Death. the 2 and 3e versions were all BW art.

I believe @jhkim was trying to say that this recent colour illustration of four characters looks like it belongs to a more modern setting than default D&D, not that it's copied from Masque of the Red Death.

Yes, thanks, Naburimannu - that is what I meant. I edited my post later to say that I identified that it is an established NPC from Ravenloft. Ravenloft has always pulled from a lot of 19th century horror fiction (i.e. Frankenstein, Dracula, etc.), and had a wheelchair-using NPC back in the 1986 module Ravenloft II: The House on Gryphon Hill. There have been many changes, but the 19th-century sources and feel has been from the start.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 23, 2024, 04:04:28 PM

Quote from: Omega on June 23, 2024, 09:17:11 AMAlmost certainly. But also for woke points. But we know they are obsessed with outrage marketing still and are lying through their teeth at every turn.

Would not surprise me if that little vid was not tailor made to generate outrage and none of that art is actually in the book.

But this begs the question: "Why?"  Why do they continue to outrage market, especially by advertising things that they have no intention of actually publishing?

Does this result in more sales?  That may be hard to quantify.  It is possible that some people will buy the books to "own the chuds" who wouldn't have before.  There are assuredly some people who would have bought the books who will not, just because of the marketing.  Even with internal numbers, there's no way to quantify what people might have done.  But WotC has seen a decline in sales of D&D.  That is an objective fact.  The different ways to interpret that decline may differ, but none of WotC's marketing has changed that decline.

Does it result in "brand damage"?  Most assuredly.  First, when a company is already damaged based on their actions (the OGL fiasco, etc.), brand damage is much easier to incur and much harder to remove.  At this point, there is a large part of the RPG fanbase that has no interest in any new products from D&D/WotC.  Now, this damage can be repaired, but that repair will not be accomplished by courting more controversy.  Controversy itself, even if minor or unwarranted, acts to hinder brand recovery.  So, by constantly inserting controversial material in the marketing, WotC is continuously giving present fans reasons to second guess their fandom (if you keep expanding what is not "acceptable," eventually most fans will find a reason to identify with the outgroup).

So if you can't really demonstrate solid and measurable revenue increases due to the marketing, but you can show solid examples of brand damage, why do they still do it?

I think the reason is complicated.  First, I think the people suffering from the consequences of the brand damage are not the same people as those who are making the decisions.  The investors are losing potential profit, but the board is controlled by large, institutional investors who are more tolerant of losses for the purpose of ideological demonstration.  Second, I think the people making D&D live in a Pacific Northwest intellectual bubble.  Everyone they know believes the same way that they do.  The only interaction with opposing ideas occur while dog-piling on heretics on social media.  These folks see themselves as the woke equivalent of Jehovah's Witnesses; they are duty bound to force their religion down your throat.  It's what make them "good" people.

This leads into the third, and I think most important reason.  The people making the decisions to market this way have a truly unrealistic appraisal of their power and influence.  They believe their own press.  A good analogy is the media-entertainment companies like Disney.  Once you recognize that 7 companies own 95% of all the media outlets in the US, it becomes easy to think that these companies have a stranglehold on public discourse.  So, Disney continues to make woke movies because, in their mind, you have nowhere else to go.  If you want to watch movies, you'll eventually have to bend the knee to them ideologically.  So you can review "bomb" their media over-and-over, but eventually you'll give in and think what they want you to think (according to them).  Wotc is the "big dog" of RPGs.  They feel like they have the power to force you to play the "right" way (or to not play the wrong way).  And what are you going to do about it?  They are D&D!

I think, in the long run, WotC (and companies like Disney) are wrong.  People don't need RPGs/movies/TV shows/etc.  They can find alternate forms of entertainment.  So WotC's bet on outrage marketing is a losing proposition.  They aren't going to force most people to "think right."  They are just going to run people away from D&D.  Which provides for opportunities for others to profit off WotC's mistakes.  But, as long as those making the decisions are losing their jobs or incomes, I don't expect this attitude to change...

In support of Eirikrautha's assertion above that people will find the entertainment that they prefer and will reject what they dislike, I give you the best example, Star Wars Fan Films - a solid fuck you to Disney+ woke Star Wars.

https://www.therpgsite.com/media-inspiration/you-want-good-star-wars-content-look-at-fan-made-material/

Greetings!

All of these kinds of stupid Woke policies and decisions are not about economics, or profitability. These kinds of dynamics are all about ideology. Woke Marxist ideology. In a different field entirely from gaming, we can see these same kinds of disastrous Woke policies being embraced by Tractor Supply Company. Yes, incredibly, Woke, Commie degenerates have taken over Tractor Supply Company, as seen in the brief video below.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 23, 2024, 04:04:28 PM

Quote from: Omega on June 23, 2024, 09:17:11 AMAlmost certainly. But also for woke points. But we know they are obsessed with outrage marketing still and are lying through their teeth at every turn.

Would not surprise me if that little vid was not tailor made to generate outrage and none of that art is actually in the book.

But this begs the question: "Why?"  Why do they continue to outrage market, especially by advertising things that they have no intention of actually publishing?

Does this result in more sales?  That may be hard to quantify.  It is possible that some people will buy the books to "own the chuds" who wouldn't have before.  There are assuredly some people who would have bought the books who will not, just because of the marketing.  Even with internal numbers, there's no way to quantify what people might have done.  But WotC has seen a decline in sales of D&D.  That is an objective fact.  The different ways to interpret that decline may differ, but none of WotC's marketing has changed that decline.

Does it result in "brand damage"?  Most assuredly.  First, when a company is already damaged based on their actions (the OGL fiasco, etc.), brand damage is much easier to incur and much harder to remove.  At this point, there is a large part of the RPG fanbase that has no interest in any new products from D&D/WotC.  Now, this damage can be repaired, but that repair will not be accomplished by courting more controversy.  Controversy itself, even if minor or unwarranted, acts to hinder brand recovery.  So, by constantly inserting controversial material in the marketing, WotC is continuously giving present fans reasons to second guess their fandom (if you keep expanding what is not "acceptable," eventually most fans will find a reason to identify with the outgroup).

So if you can't really demonstrate solid and measurable revenue increases due to the marketing, but you can show solid examples of brand damage, why do they still do it?

I think the reason is complicated.  First, I think the people suffering from the consequences of the brand damage are not the same people as those who are making the decisions.  The investors are losing potential profit, but the board is controlled by large, institutional investors who are more tolerant of losses for the purpose of ideological demonstration.  Second, I think the people making D&D live in a Pacific Northwest intellectual bubble.  Everyone they know believes the same way that they do.  The only interaction with opposing ideas occur while dog-piling on heretics on social media.  These folks see themselves as the woke equivalent of Jehovah's Witnesses; they are duty bound to force their religion down your throat.  It's what make them "good" people.

This leads into the third, and I think most important reason.  The people making the decisions to market this way have a truly unrealistic appraisal of their power and influence.  They believe their own press.  A good analogy is the media-entertainment companies like Disney.  Once you recognize that 7 companies own 95% of all the media outlets in the US, it becomes easy to think that these companies have a stranglehold on public discourse.  So, Disney continues to make woke movies because, in their mind, you have nowhere else to go.  If you want to watch movies, you'll eventually have to bend the knee to them ideologically.  So you can review "bomb" their media over-and-over, but eventually you'll give in and think what they want you to think (according to them).  Wotc is the "big dog" of RPGs.  They feel like they have the power to force you to play the "right" way (or to not play the wrong way).  And what are you going to do about it?  They are D&D!

I think, in the long run, WotC (and companies like Disney) are wrong.  People don't need RPGs/movies/TV shows/etc.  They can find alternate forms of entertainment.  So WotC's bet on outrage marketing is a losing proposition.  They aren't going to force most people to "think right."  They are just going to run people away from D&D.  Which provides for opportunities for others to profit off WotC's mistakes.  But, as long as those making the decisions are losing their jobs or incomes, I don't expect this attitude to change...

Something many of the people in charge fail to understand about entertainment is that the truly good stuff, be it movies, television, board games or RPGs has great replay value.

Adults may not like to have the some stories repeated as often as toddlers do, but experiencing an old favorite brings back fond memories for most of us.

I'm presently starting a re-read of Lloyd Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain and am already getting some inspiration for what will likely be the next campaign I run (my own system should work nicely for it).

The point being; there's more than enough old entertainment to carry a person through a lifetime without their drivel.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 23, 2024, 04:04:28 PMBut this begs the question: "Why?"  Why do they continue to outrage market, especially by advertising things that they have no intention of actually publishing?

Because it worked for one company once for a brief time and now marketing is obsessed with it.

They believe, correctly that the bad reviews and complaint videos and forum posts will generate curiosity sales. People will buy the book just to see if it is as bad as they say. And the book usually either does not have the things complained about. Or they are not as bad as made out to be. WotC played Pundit like a harp from hell with Candlekeep for example.

The other reason is that it gives marketing some padding. If a product fails they can blame it on those mean ol homophobes, racists, sexists and whatevers being mean. You see it all the time with woke movies and TV. They garner outrage marketing. Then the show fails and they turn around abd blame it on the -ists!

But probably the big one is that its free advertising. They dont care if its bad advertising. Its FREE. Dozens of reviewers and commenters doing spec work for the companies.

Quote from: Omega on June 24, 2024, 08:25:20 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 23, 2024, 04:04:28 PMBut this begs the question: "Why?"  Why do they continue to outrage market, especially by advertising things that they have no intention of actually publishing?

Because it worked for one company once for a brief time and now marketing is obsessed with it.

They believe, correctly that the bad reviews and complaint videos and forum posts will generate curiosity sales. People will buy the book just to see if it is as bad as they say. And the book usually either does not have the things complained about. Or they are not as bad as made out to be. WotC played Pundit like a harp from hell with Candlekeep for example.

The other reason is that it gives marketing some padding. If a product fails they can blame it on those mean ol homophobes, racists, sexists and whatevers being mean. You see it all the time with woke movies and TV. They garner outrage marketing. Then the show fails and they turn around abd blame it on the -ists!

But probably the big one is that its free advertising. They dont care if its bad advertising. Its FREE. Dozens of reviewers and commenters doing spec work for the companies.

Except that's too simplistic, especially when outrage marketing doesn't work, especially when it comes to sales and profits.  If sales were being boosted, even by some other factor that they could claim was because of the marketing, then the practice could survive.  But no one who does it sees increased sales!  Having a good excuse for failure doesn't help keep your job when all you do is fail.  Eventually, the boss wants success.

I've presented my theory above, and I don't think any explanation can be complete unless it addresses the business side (the consistent lost revenue) of the equation along with the marketing.  Outrage marketing is manifestly NOT working, especially to increase sales or grow brands.  So why allow your marketing dept. to keep doing it?  It's not like CEOs view marketing as some magic that they can't evaluate or speak to.  These are, for the most part, pretty business savvy people, who needed to understand business and marketing to get to where they are, right?

QuoteWotC played Pundit like a harp from hell with Candlekeep for example.

How well did Candlekeep sell?  I'm seeing info that it sold worse than Spelljammer (which absolutely tanked).  So how did Pundit get "played"?  Seems they lost their shirts...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on June 23, 2024, 04:04:28 PMI think, in the long run, WotC (and companies like Disney) are wrong.  People don't need RPGs/movies/TV shows/etc.  They can find alternate forms of entertainment.  So WotC's bet on outrage marketing is a losing proposition.  They aren't going to force most people to "think right."  They are just going to run people away from D&D.  Which provides for opportunities for others to profit off WotC's mistakes.  But, as long as those making the decisions are losing their jobs or incomes, I don't expect this attitude to change...

There's plenty of people who refuse to leave and find alternative forms of entertainment. Most people it seems are like that, including creatives who could be making new things instead.

Those people making and watching Star Wars fanfilms? They're not owning Disney. They're not making money with their work to continue investing in their work. They're living in an unsustainable nostalgia bubble that Disney could easily destroy with a C&D, because Disney owns the copyright to Star Wars.

These corpos have poisoned the wells and scorched the earth. You can't just take what parts you like and make a new fandom like Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation. These stories are copyrighted and Disney spent ungodly amounts of money to ensure that they own these stories for a full century or longer! These corpos legally own these IPs and can do whatever they want, including suing fans trying to keep the true faith alive.

You want angry fans to make and watch alternatives? You have to drag them kicking and screaming like unruly children.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 24, 2024, 12:14:11 PMYou want angry fans to make and watch alternatives? You have to drag them kicking and screaming like unruly children.

Not in the RPG market. People been making alternatives for decades, and profitable ones even, without even being particularly angry.

Quote from: Hobo on June 24, 2024, 12:32:21 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on June 24, 2024, 12:14:11 PMYou want angry fans to make and watch alternatives? You have to drag them kicking and screaming like unruly children.

Not in the RPG market. People been making alternatives for decades, and profitable ones even, without even being particularly angry.

For medieval fantasy anyway. When you try other genres then you run into the problem that each genre either has no representatives or is under de facto monopoly to a game made in the 80s or early 90s. Traveler, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk 2020, Call of Cthulhu, World of Darkness... and unlike D&D, each has only a single setting with decades of lore bloat that made them intimidating to new players, so they increasingly focus on nostalgia.