I should have loved this game. It should have been a game about a vast and gigantic empire that's on its last throes, technology that is no longer understood used to travel from world to world, feudalism in space, corruption and collapse and high adventure in the time of the death of the galaxy; but instead it never felt epic enough, and never felt feudal enough, and never felt post apocalyptic enough, or vast enough. And the system sucked, both of them.
What the fuck happened?
RPGPundit
It wasn't TRAVELLER?
...or even a Post-apoc TRAVELLER....
- Ed C.
Quote from: KoltarIt wasn't TRAVELLER?
...or even a Post-apoc TRAVELLER....
- Ed C.
No, I don't think that's the reason.
The system was not completely bad, but some things utterly sucked, indeed.
Despite the void between the companies, it reminded me too heavily of a White Wolf product.
The "Empire" Map was sooo lacking vastness, that I became immideately disinterested.
For the record, it also and totally lacked the Spice Melange.
EDIT: Some of the people pushing it in Germany are also WW novel authors, so go figure.
Too much of a shotgun approach to the game. It is like when you put a little kid in the kitchen and let them play. They grab a little of everything they like and toss it together...
The end result is a fucking mess.
Keith
It wasn't dark and gothic enough. The setting tried, but failed to really drive home the proper mood to me.
Magic didn't feel right. Psionics or jedi powers are fine, but I can't wrap my head around magic in a sci-fi game.
The system didn't sit well with me either.
Well, the one long-term campaign I played in the game rocked. We had messianic assassins, nanotech miracles, debauched populists, zen space-drives, criminal planetary exploration, ancient techno-heresies ... all sorts of grand stuff, all set in a constant web of byzantine political intrigue.
I always figured that's what Fading Suns was. Maybe I just got really lucky with my group and GM :shrug:
It reminded me of the boring bits from WH40k, the tedium of politics from Dune and the gaming system and art design from White Wolf.
It probably is a better game than the 2nd editon and few supplements I have, but this, like a lot of games, suffered badly by having a D20 version and spreading the supplemental material to cover both rule-sets.
Fading Suns is a great game. Can't speak to the rules because I never played it, but the settng is simply awesome. It is precisely what you stated it should have been, Pundy. Space doesn't always have to be "vast," especially when the map looks as cool as it does. The only gripe I have is with the meag-unevenness of the artwork, from sublime to suck.
Whoa, your aesthetics are in shambles.
The map looks terrible!
Fading Suns is really like a lot of settings - it's kind of so-so when you read it, because, yeah, it's got everything and the kitchen sink in there. But when you actually start to play the damn thing and therefore, by necessity, the setting becomes more focussed on a small group of characters, it's very, very good. At least, IME. Lots of stuff to inspire plot hooks.
Also, as far as magic goes, who's to say Theurgy isn't just another form of Psi power, just based around "humility" rather than "ego"? (Well, the Church, for one, but they're likely a bit biased on that count. :haw: )
System's definitely a bit wonky, but it's workable.
Quote from: SettembriniWhoa, your aesthetics are in shambles.
The map looks terrible!
Au contraire, my friend. Your ideology clouds your aesthetics!
No, not at all.
Maybe there are other maps, I´m talking about a two page folded & flimsy map that had about a dozen systems on it, and was lilac, lilac, lilac, lilac, lilac, lilac.
It also had ultra-cheesy alchemical symbols for some of the star systems.
Yuck.
I gave Fading Suns to my ex-brother-in-law. I don't know why I gave it to him. The game just didn't appeal to me in some way.
Quote from: SettembriniNo, not at all.
I´m talking about a two page folded & flimsy map that had about a dozen systems on it, and was lilac, lilac, lilac, lilac, lilac, lilac.
It also had ultra-cheesy alchemical symbols for some of the star systems.
So am I.
QuoteYuck.
Rawk!
I liked the concept of Fading Suns. I like the "high technology/dark ages religion" dichotomy. Also, I wrote the most kick-ass piece of game related fiction I've ever done. All of maybe three paragraphs? I need to dig that up and revel in the awsomenity of it.
Well, it was ok.
I never ran it, however, and truthfully not even sure where the book is anymore. In a box in a garage half a country away no doubt.
Something I like about the system was that it is (in some places) a very good, very transparent toolkit.
Like, the alien abilities use the same point costs like the cyberware implants, so when creating a new alien species you instantly know, just how powerful they are compared to those already in the game.
I like the fact, that the setting is defined (especially in the Fiefbooks) and bombardes the GM with adventure seeds, yet leaves wide open spaces to put in your own ideas, where you needed them.
I like the allusions to Star Frontiers.
I usually try to tone down the "It's the European Dark Ages... in space!"- vibe a bit during my games and focus on the weird aspects of the setting, though.
It doesn't work.
You have a setting that imnplicitly relies on technology that also proscribes and claims to not understand it. To me that is too vast an incongruity.
Unlike Dune where they use technology and understand it, it's just either quite advanced, evolved to the point of being organic (well, Mentats). But Dune works because of the whole Butlerian Jihad ethos where machines aren't meant to replace men - no AI's. In FS it's just 'tech is bad'.
It just didn't work.
And reading the background was a real fucking chore.
That plus the feudal setup restricts character choices. As it always will in games of this nature, unfortauntely. I personally can't see any way around that.
Quote from: ErstwhileFading Suns is really like a lot of settings - it's kind of so-so when you read it, because, yeah, it's got everything and the kitchen sink in there. But when you actually start to play the damn thing and therefore, by necessity, the setting becomes more focussed on a small group of characters, it's very, very good. At least, IME. Lots of stuff to inspire plot hooks.
Also, as far as magic goes, who's to say Theurgy isn't just another form of Psi power, just based around "humility" rather than "ego"? (Well, the Church, for one, but they're likely a bit biased on that count. :haw: )
System's definitely a bit wonky, but it's workable.
If I read a setting and it doesnt excite me, how do I get excited about running it or even encouraging my players to give it a shot?
I picked it up used. It looked ok but it just didn't fire me up. I honestly don't remember the mechanics so they were probably neither awful nor great.
QuoteYou have a setting that implicitly relies on technology that also proscribes and claims to not understand it. To me that is too vast an incongruity.
Did you read the part, where (after hundreds of years of isolation among the stars) the church changes its doctrine to allow nobles (and themselves) to wield technology, because they are "martyring" themselves, so the common folk "shall not be touched by sin".
Or the part, where the Guild fights a bloody conflict to get similar privileges?
It all makes A LOT of sense.
The "anti-techno"-stance is just politics. The doctrine of the church doesn't work like that.
...of course there are many people on many worlds who can barely read, let alone quote scripture or church law. Sometimes you get uprisings around a charismatic leader calling for a ban of all "evil tech". But these kinds of insurrections ALWAYS stay local, because
the church doesn't have an interest in banning all technology, only controlling who can access it.
Big difference.
QuoteBut Dune works because of the whole Butlerian Jihad ethos where machines aren't meant to replace men - no AI's. In FS it's just 'tech is bad'.
It is a bit more complex than that.
In Fading Suns it is not as simple as "machines rising up against their creators" its "men creating technology, that makes creation irrelevant".
It is a stance against laziness and therefore "tech
which replaces the work of men is bad". You can have high-technology, but it needs to be operated by a human to be legal.
This why you have so poor auto-pilots, automatic targeting computers etc. in your starships (if you even have some) and why Advisors (PDAs with an A.I. analyzing the situation and telling you what to do) are illegal, while Blaster Rifles aren't.
QuoteThat plus the feudal setup restricts character choices. As it always will in games of this nature, unfortunately.
Well, you get to play the 7% of the galactic population, who are actually born free AND have (via standing as a Noble, Priest or Guilder) moderate to large power to actually make meaningful decisions, travel around and engage in all kinds of adventures.
Other than being from these three groups I don't see much restriction.
Plus the system is flexible enough, that if you really wanted to, you could create a group of serfs (or yeoman etc.) and act out their daily toil.
Just don't expect having much fun doing it.
Quote from: alexandroDid you read the part, where (after hundreds of years of isolation among the stars) the church changes its doctrine to allow nobles (and themselves) to wield technology, because they are "martyring" themselves, so the common folk "shall not be touched by sin".
Or the part, where the Guild fights a bloody conflict to get similar privileges?
It all makes A LOT of sense.
The "anti-techno"-stance is just politics. The doctrine of the church doesn't work like that.
...of course there are many people on many worlds who can barely read, let alone quote scripture or church law. Sometimes you get uprisings around a charismatic leader calling for a ban of all "evil tech". But these kinds of insurrections ALWAYS stay local, because the church doesn't have an interest in banning all technology, only controlling who can access it.
Big difference.
It is a bit more complex than that.
In Fading Suns it is not as simple as "machines rising up against their creators" its "men creating technology, that makes creation irrelevant".
It is a stance against laziness and therefore "tech which replaces the work of men is bad". You can have high-technology, but it needs to be operated by a human to be legal.
This why you have so poor auto-pilots, automatic targeting computers etc. in your starships (if you even have some) and why Advisors (PDAs with an A.I. analyzing the situation and telling you what to do) are illegal, while Blaster Rifles aren't.
Sorry it really doesn't work. It just comes across as clumsy and goofy.
it's a technologically based society by nature so shoehorning in some kind of anti technological viewpoint makes no sense at all.
Quote from: signoftheserpentSorry it really doesn't work. It just comes across as clumsy and goofy.
it's a technologically based society by nature so shoehorning in some kind of anti technological viewpoint makes no sense at all.
Again ... in my actual play it worked fine.
So are you saying that it doesn't work
for you (which ... fine) or that it can't work
for anyone (which doesn't fit the evidence)?
Quote from: TonyLBAgain ... in my actual play it worked fine.
So are you saying that it doesn't work for you (which ... fine) or that it can't work for anyone (which doesn't fit the evidence)?
well obviously i'm speaking from my experience.
surely that doesn't need stating explicitly does it?
Quote from: LawbagIf I read a setting and it doesnt excite me, how do I get excited about running it or even encouraging my players to give it a shot?
*shrug* I'm not saying you have to run FS, or encourage anyone to play it. :) All I'm saying is that in actual play I found it
was engaging. The setting didn't "wow" me at the start but it seemed interesting enough to try a game, so I did. YMMV, etc.
Really, all I'm saying is IMO it's worth a shot if you find it somewhat interesting; if you're completely underwhelmed when you read it, then, yeah, chances are it'll be an uphill battle, as with any similar situation.
I
will say that while I find the core setting to be a great starting point, I definitely tinker with the setting as I do with all settings, so I wouldn't say that my FS games are exactly "canon". (Last game had only three sapient races in the known worlds - humans, Vau, and Symbiotes - for instance.)
Quote from: alexandroI usually try to tone down the "It's the European Dark Ages... in space!"- vibe a bit during my games and focus on the weird aspects of the setting, though.
Me, too. My last campaign was a lot like a Call of Cthulhu adventure (encountering a lost branch of House Li Halan that still followed the diabolist path); I played in one that felt a lot like Indiana Jones (Scravers and scholars racing to recover artifacts before a rival House did). The next campaign I run will hopefully feature the Symbiotes prominently and have a bit of a
StarCraft vibe (Aliens with force field technology? Check! Space marines? Check! Voracious hive mind assimilationist horde? Check!)
QuoteSorry it really doesn't work. It just comes across as clumsy and goofy.
Like a setting where- decades after a machine uprising- humanity is STILL afraid of all technology and instead relies COMPLETELY on a drug which turns you into a freak and which can be found only on ONE PLANET in the WHOLE FRICKING UNIVERSE?
[irony]Yeah, that makes A LOT more sense[/irony]
Quote from: alexandro- decades after a machine uprising-
[irony]Yeah, that makes A LOT more sense[/irony]
Millennia.
Quote from: alexandroLike a setting where- decades after a machine uprising- humanity is STILL afraid of all technology and instead relies COMPLETELY on a drug which turns you into a freak and which can be found only on ONE PLANET in the WHOLE FRICKING UNIVERSE?
[irony]Yeah, that makes A LOT more sense[/irony]
er, my name's not frank herbert!
But the DUne universe (which is actually pretty dissimilar) is rather more thought out than that and humanity isn't afraid of all technology. I think the idea was that humans didn't like artifical intelligences replacing them.
I happen to be a rather big fan of the game. The best descriptor for it that I've heard/got is that it is a kitchen sink that works. Sure, there is a huge mashup of various bits from all your favorite sci-fi/space opera stories, but they all fit within the setting as presented, they are all organic to it, rather than just being tossed in.
Like any other game setting there is a certain amount of 'suspension of disbelief' required to get into it. I'm amazed that so many gamers chose to pan a game because the setting 'doesn't make sense' while another, equally wonky setting does. What they truly mean is 'it didn't make sense TO ME', and that is a shame.
What does Fading suns have? Lightsabers and sheild fighting, jedi powers and holy men, it has renissance intruige and space marines vs bug hordes. It has robotic fucking horses, and nobles who ride them past feilds of peasants tilling the soil with alien beasts of burden.
It is evocative if one is willing to buy into it. Like any other work of fiction, however, if you are not willing to take that leap, make that effort, you simply will not enjoy it.
I happen to think the bar is fairly low, the leap required is simple and easy, which is the closest I can think of to an objective standard for 'good or bad' in an RPG setting. Of course, I can only speak to my own perception.
Quote from: SpikeI happen to be a rather big fan of the game. The best descriptor for it that I've heard/got is that it is a kitchen sink that works. Sure, there is a huge mashup of various bits from all your favorite sci-fi/space opera stories, but they all fit within the setting as presented, they are all organic to it, rather than just being tossed in.
You nailed it. And additionally, the default adventure mode, the questing knight and his retainers in spaaace, is unique and intuitive. To me, anyway.
I only wish that the English edition was as aesthetically beautiful as the French edition.
KoOS
Fading Suns Hero
http://www.bcholmes.org/fading_suns/index.html
'nough said :D
QM
Quote from: King of Old SchoolI only wish that the English edition was as aesthetically beautiful as the French edition.
KoOS
Agreed.
RedBrick is trying to get the French guy to do the artwork for 3rd Edition (once it gets out, I'm keeping my fingers crossed...).
And the current art director shows some promising work (http://grofafo.org/index.php/topic,12731.msg386646.html#msg386646) as well.