Quote from: SettembriniNo, not at all.

I´m talking about a two page folded & flimsy map that had about a dozen systems on it, and was lilac, lilac, lilac, lilac, lilac, lilac.
It also had ultra-cheesy alchemical symbols for some of the star systems.

So am I.

QuoteYuck.

Rawk!

I liked the concept of Fading Suns. I like the "high technology/dark ages religion" dichotomy. Also, I wrote the most kick-ass piece of game related fiction I've ever done. All of maybe three paragraphs? I need to dig that up and revel in the awsomenity of it.

Well, it was ok.

I never ran it, however, and truthfully not even sure where the book is anymore. In a box in a garage half a country away no doubt.

Something I like about the system was that it is (in some places) a very good, very transparent toolkit.
Like, the alien abilities use the same point costs like the cyberware implants, so when creating a new alien species you instantly know, just how powerful they are compared to those already in the game.
I like the fact, that the setting is defined (especially in the Fiefbooks) and bombardes the GM with adventure seeds, yet leaves wide open spaces to  put in your own ideas, where you needed them.
I like the allusions to Star Frontiers.

I usually try to tone down the "It's the European Dark Ages... in space!"- vibe a bit during my games and focus on the weird aspects of the setting, though.

It doesn't work.

You have a setting that imnplicitly relies on technology that also proscribes and claims to not understand it. To me that is too vast an incongruity.

Unlike Dune where they use technology and understand it, it's just either quite advanced, evolved to the point of being organic (well, Mentats). But Dune works because of the whole Butlerian Jihad ethos where machines aren't meant to replace men - no AI's. In FS it's just 'tech is bad'.

It just didn't work.

And reading the background was a real fucking chore.

That plus the feudal setup restricts character choices. As it always will in games of this nature, unfortauntely. I personally can't see any way around that.

Quote from: ErstwhileFading Suns is really like a lot of settings - it's kind of so-so when you read it, because, yeah, it's got everything and the kitchen sink in there.  But when you actually start to play the damn thing and therefore, by necessity, the setting becomes more focussed on a small group of characters, it's very, very good.  At least, IME.  Lots of stuff to inspire plot hooks.

Also, as far as magic goes, who's to say Theurgy isn't just another form of Psi power, just based around "humility" rather than "ego"?  (Well, the Church, for one, but they're likely a bit biased on that count. :haw: )  

System's definitely a bit wonky, but it's workable.

If I read a setting and it doesnt excite me, how do I get excited about running it or even encouraging my players to give it a shot?

I picked it up used.  It looked ok but it just didn't fire me up.  I honestly don't remember the mechanics so they were probably neither awful nor great.

QuoteYou have a setting that implicitly relies on technology that also proscribes and claims to not understand it. To me that is too vast an incongruity.

Did you read the part, where (after hundreds of years of isolation among the stars) the church changes its doctrine to allow nobles (and themselves) to wield technology, because they are "martyring" themselves, so the common folk "shall not be touched by sin".
Or the part, where the Guild fights a bloody conflict to get similar privileges?

It all makes A LOT of sense.
The "anti-techno"-stance is just politics. The doctrine of the church doesn't work like that.
...of course there are many people on many worlds who can barely read, let alone quote scripture or church law. Sometimes you get uprisings around a charismatic leader calling for a ban of all "evil tech". But these kinds of insurrections ALWAYS stay local, because the church doesn't have an interest in banning all technology, only controlling who can access it.
Big difference.

QuoteBut Dune works because of the whole Butlerian Jihad ethos where machines aren't meant to replace men - no AI's. In FS it's just 'tech is bad'.

It is a bit more complex than that.
In Fading Suns it is not as simple as "machines rising up against their creators" its "men creating technology, that makes creation irrelevant".
It is a stance against laziness and therefore "tech which replaces the work of men is bad". You can have high-technology, but it needs to be operated by a human to be legal.
This why you have so poor auto-pilots, automatic targeting computers etc. in your starships (if you even have some) and why Advisors (PDAs with an A.I. analyzing the situation and telling you what to do) are illegal, while Blaster Rifles aren't.

QuoteThat plus the feudal setup restricts character choices. As it always will in games of this nature, unfortunately.

Well, you get to play the 7% of the galactic population, who are actually born free AND have (via standing as a Noble, Priest or Guilder) moderate to large  power to actually make meaningful decisions, travel around and engage in all kinds of adventures.
Other than being from these three groups I don't see much restriction.

Plus the system is flexible enough, that if you really wanted to, you could create a group of serfs (or yeoman etc.) and act out their daily toil.
Just don't expect having much fun doing it.

Quote from: alexandroDid you read the part, where (after hundreds of years of isolation among the stars) the church changes its doctrine to allow nobles (and themselves) to wield technology, because they are "martyring" themselves, so the common folk "shall not be touched by sin".
Or the part, where the Guild fights a bloody conflict to get similar privileges?

It all makes A LOT of sense.
The "anti-techno"-stance is just politics. The doctrine of the church doesn't work like that.
...of course there are many people on many worlds who can barely read, let alone quote scripture or church law. Sometimes you get uprisings around a charismatic leader calling for a ban of all "evil tech". But these kinds of insurrections ALWAYS stay local, because the church doesn't have an interest in banning all technology, only controlling who can access it.
Big difference.


It is a bit more complex than that.
In Fading Suns it is not as simple as "machines rising up against their creators" its "men creating technology, that makes creation irrelevant".
It is a stance against laziness and therefore "tech which replaces the work of men is bad". You can have high-technology, but it needs to be operated by a human to be legal.
This why you have so poor auto-pilots, automatic targeting computers etc. in your starships (if you even have some) and why Advisors (PDAs with an A.I. analyzing the situation and telling you what to do) are illegal, while Blaster Rifles aren't.

Sorry it really doesn't work. It just comes across as clumsy and goofy.

it's a technologically based society by nature so shoehorning in some kind of anti technological viewpoint makes no sense at all.

Quote from: signoftheserpentSorry it really doesn't work. It just comes across as clumsy and goofy.

it's a technologically based society by nature so shoehorning in some kind of anti technological viewpoint makes no sense at all.

Again ... in my actual play it worked fine.

So are you saying that it doesn't work for you (which ... fine) or that it can't work for anyone (which doesn't fit the evidence)?

Quote from: TonyLBAgain ... in my actual play it worked fine.

So are you saying that it doesn't work for you (which ... fine) or that it can't work for anyone (which doesn't fit the evidence)?

well obviously i'm speaking from my experience.

surely that doesn't need stating explicitly does it?

Quote from: LawbagIf I read a setting and it doesnt excite me, how do I get excited about running it or even encouraging my players to give it a shot?

*shrug*  I'm not saying you have to run FS, or encourage anyone to play it.    All I'm saying is that in actual play I found it was engaging.  The setting didn't "wow" me at the start but it seemed interesting enough to try a game, so I did.   YMMV, etc.

Really, all I'm saying is IMO it's worth a shot if you find it somewhat interesting; if you're completely underwhelmed when you read it, then, yeah, chances are it'll be an uphill battle, as with any similar situation.

I will say that while I find the core setting to be a great starting point, I definitely tinker with the setting as I do with all settings, so I wouldn't say that my FS games are exactly "canon".  (Last game had only three sapient races in the known worlds - humans, Vau, and Symbiotes - for instance.)

Quote from: alexandroI usually try to tone down the "It's the European Dark Ages... in space!"- vibe a bit during my games and focus on the weird aspects of the setting, though.

Me, too.  My last campaign was a lot like a Call of Cthulhu adventure (encountering a lost branch of House Li Halan that still followed the diabolist path); I played in one that felt a lot like Indiana Jones (Scravers and scholars racing to recover artifacts before a rival House did).  The next campaign I run will hopefully feature the Symbiotes prominently and have a bit of a StarCraft vibe (Aliens with force field technology?  Check!  Space marines?  Check!  Voracious hive mind assimilationist horde?  Check!)

QuoteSorry it really doesn't work. It just comes across as clumsy and goofy.

Like a setting where- decades after a machine uprising- humanity is STILL afraid of all technology and instead relies COMPLETELY on a drug which turns you into a freak and which can be found only on ONE PLANET in the WHOLE FRICKING UNIVERSE?

[irony]Yeah, that makes A LOT more sense[/irony]

Quote from: alexandro- decades after a machine uprising-
[irony]Yeah, that makes A LOT more sense[/irony]

Millennia.

Quote from: alexandroLike a setting where- decades after a machine uprising- humanity is STILL afraid of all technology and instead relies COMPLETELY on a drug which turns you into a freak and which can be found only on ONE PLANET in the WHOLE FRICKING UNIVERSE?

[irony]Yeah, that makes A LOT more sense[/irony]

er, my name's not frank herbert!

But the DUne universe (which is actually pretty dissimilar) is rather more thought out than that and humanity isn't afraid of all technology. I think the idea was that humans didn't like artifical intelligences replacing them.