I like the marriage think you pointed out.

Now I'm imagining that half-orcs are not necessarily the offspring of humans and orcs, but actual orcs that have been partially transformed into humans by sacraments of marriage or baptism.

Come to think of it, half-orcs and half-elves can become clerics in AD&D.
Maybe any demi-humans or monstrous races can become clerics by giving up some of their racial benefits and becoming half-human. Then maybe you can justify playing a Hellboy-type half-demon cleric in your D&D campaign.

I totally agree with the OP. My homebrew games all treat the quasi-magical powers of priests as something quite different from magic user spells; at least for the lawful deities it is more of a mix of sacraments and miracles that you would recognize from a technicolor bible movie.

Quote from: Cave Bear;789413I like the marriage think you pointed out.

Now I'm imagining that half-orcs are not necessarily the offspring of humans and orcs, but actual orcs that have been partially transformed into humans by sacraments of marriage or baptism.

Come to think of it, half-orcs and half-elves can become clerics in AD&D.
Maybe any demi-humans or monstrous races can become clerics by giving up some of their racial benefits and becoming half-human. Then maybe you can justify playing a Hellboy-type half-demon cleric in your D&D campaign.

Yeah this thing kind of piggy backs off my last thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=30610) and jhkim's excellent article he linked to it:http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/magic/antiscience.html

All too often in fantasy settings people arrive at fantasy by taking the world as we imagine it to be (in which baptism is just water and empty words and disease is caused by germs) and then adding magic as a layer of exceptions on top of that, instead of taking the things that people care about in the real world and imbuing them with magic.

And people really really care about religion.

The idea of half-orcs being the product of the sacraments of baptism or marriage is right exactly on the nose. It makes the religion feel real in a way that a spell list doesn't.

So to go down the list of  sacraments:
-Baptism: some ability to redeem monsters created by the corruption of humans . Also: holy water.
-Confirmation: gives subjects very basic defenses against black magic?
-Eucharist: holy feasts figure in a lot of religion so there should be something there but am drawing a blank.
-Penance: removing curses?
-Anointing the sick: pretty easy one...
-Extreme unction: helps prevent undeadification?
-Holy Orders: having a chain of bishop to bishop that goes all the way back and is unbroken is important historically and not something people think of so much today. Perhaps some psychic links that goes up and down these hierarchies of initiation?
-Matrimony: some protection against supernatural seduction and the redemption of beings such as trolls (see Nordic folklore).

Funerals would be excellent in undead prevention (which is stressed over and over and over in folklore).

I hope this doesn't come across as insulting or patronizing to any religious people. It really isn't the intent. What I'm looking at is a way to make Christian religion feel alive and real in a historical setting and I'd probably err on the side of making Christians the white hats to make sure I balance out my own views (being an atheist personally).

On the off chance anyone is interested, this is the section on Miracles from my paleo-OSR game, 27th edition Platemail (don't feel bad if you haven't heard of it; it is a tiny weed hiding in the shadows of google+). The mechanics might not make any sense, but the important point is the overall flavor. There is a separate, roughly similar length section on clerical sacraments, which covers the sorts of things you might imagine:
_______________________
Miracles are super-natural acts or events that might resemble spells in their effects but are not achieved through arcane or even priestly magic.  They are achieved through faith and are accessible to characters of any class, provided they have the Devout ability, or a more powerful ability of a similar kind, and are not living in a state of sin, according to the tenets of their faith.  Miracles are performed by attempting a standard saving throw vs. a task number that depends on the power and grandeur of the miracle, and with one or more of the following modifiers:

Common modifiers to miracle saving throws
Devout: required
Pious: +1
Saintly: +2 (replacing, not in addition to 'Pious')
Bearing a relic: +1
Occupying a holy place: +1

Acts of Faith (task number = 6)
Common Prayer Most medieval people pray several times daily, and devout persons do so earnestly. Such prayers are generally directed toward the well being of others or the world in general. An 'inspired' common prayer may have some subtle but noticeable benevolent effect (such as protecting a friend's household from an illness that ravages the city in which they live).

Courage of the Righteous The successful supplicant is able to resist or recover from terror or madness, through the support of his god.

Prayer for Forgiveness This is the only common act of faith that can be attempted by a character living in a state of dire sin. A successful prayer for forgiveness will give the supplicant an insight as to the penance or sacrifice that is required to return a sinner to his god's good graces. Without the aid of a priest's confession, this prayer is required before someone in a state of sin can again attempt other miracles.  This prayer may only be attempted once per month; i.e., if you fail your first attempt you must wait a month to try again.

Prayer for Guidance A successful prayer provides the character with insight as to how he might achieve some goal.

Prayer for Insight The supplicant's deity provides insight to a perplexing or troubling problem or mystery.  

Prayer for Luck The supplicant begs that the deity will aid him (good luck) or impede a foe (bad luck) in some circumstance or conflict in which the character does not feel his native abilities will be enough.  Success might be manifested by a +1 advantage or -1 disadvantage in a saving throw, attack or other task.
Prayer for Protection An attack or other hazard aimed at the supplicant is deflected or dulled.

Revive: The character or someone for whom he prays is restored of 1 hit of non-wounding damage and its associated consequences.

Minor miracles (Task number = 7)
Confound Magical Forces: Arcane spells cast at the character, or one under his protection, automatically fail, for the duration of one encounter or adventure event.

Cure Minor Disease:  A victim is completely cured of one generally non-fatal disease, such as black bile or phlegm (though any accumulated damage from that disease must still heal normally).

Defy Evil or the Undead:  The character repels an intrinsically evil being, such as the undead or a demon. If the attempt is successful, the being in question must equal the number of 'passes' in a countering saving throw or flee as if it had failed a morale check.  Even if this saving throw succeeds, the being cannot closely approach or touch the character.

Find the Open Way:  The path to some goal is revealed by way of a god-given insight.

Heal the Wounded: 1 hit of damage (and associated consequences) are healed to a single wound.

Major miracles (task number =
Call Back the Dying: A believer who has died within the last hour, but who is generally intact, returns to life and in stable, though still injured, condition (i.e., whatever caused his death will not immediately claim him, but he still must recover normally from cuts, etc.). This miracle cannot be performed on someone who has received last rites, been buried by a priest in hallowed ground or who has been severely disfigured (decapitated, burned to a crisp, etc.). This miracle does not defy God's laws because it is a form of healing those who almost-but-not-quite died. Recalling a soul that has passed on to judgment in the afterlife is a blasphemous abomination left to depraved necromancers.

Cure Blindness:  Sight is returned to a blind person.

Cure Major Disease: A victim is completely cured of one generally fatal disease, such as plague, leprosy or the pox (though any accumulated damage from the disease must still heal normally).

Heal Grievous Wounds: The supplicant heals a believer of 2 hits of damage from a wound, and its associated consequences.

Heal the Lame: The cleric restores function to the limb(s) of a believer who has been lamed by injury or disease. This requires a task number of 9 roll if the limb has been amputated.

Remove Curse: Any harmful, lasting arcane or demonic magic is dispelled from a believer.

Visions: The supplicant gains detailed insight into the future, past or the state of affairs in some distant or unobserved place.

And, just to completely clog this toilet with the massive turd of my Platemail priestly magic system, here are the Sacraments:

__________________
The following spells are available to magicians who have the 'Priest' ability; no one else may cast them.  Note that priestly spells do not require devout faith on the part of the caster; they draw their power from the formal traditions of the faith and the belief of its adherents – the caster is just a conduit.  Any magician who has the Priest ability may attempt to cast any priestly spell.  Priestly spells differ from miracles, which can be performed by any devout believer, independent of training. Some things you might expect to see as priestly spells (e.g., healing; resurrection) are actually miracles.  Look in the relevant chapter of the main rulebook for details!

Baptism: Brings an infant or convert into the church. Inquisitors have discovered this sacrament is effective even if done at sword point.
C.L.: 1      Range: Touch      Save: No      Duration: Permanent

Blessing: The recipient of a clerical blessing receives a +1 roll for any attempt to perform a miracle or attempt a Deus ex Mechina saving throw.
C.L.: 1      Range: Touch      Save: No      Duration: One day

Bury the Dead The priest buries a dead person in hallowed ground. If properly performed, that person cannot be raised from the dead (as a zombie, skeleton or otherwise), even if that person died without receiving last rights.
C.L.: 1      Range: Touch      Save: No      Duration: Permanent

Confirmation: Bestows full membership in the faith on a young adult. Required for any accepted, adult member of medieval society.
C.L.: 1      Range: Touch      Save: No      Duration: Permanent

Excommunication: The priest casts a strayed believer out of the church. The subject may no longer receive sacraments and is an outcast from the community of the faithful. The game master might rule that an excommunicated character cannot perform miracles, unless the excommunication was entirely unjustified (e.g., politically motivated).
C.L.: 3      Range: Any      Save: No   Duration: Till removed

Exorcise Demons: The cleric forces a demon or offending spirit to make a saving throw; if it fails, the evil being is forced to return to its home plane.
C.L.: 3      Range: Ranged   Save: Yes   Duration: Instantaneous

Extreme Unction: The priest provides spiritual aid and comfort and remission of sin to a deathly ill worshiper. If successfully performed on a believer, that person gains a +1 bonus in saving throws to overcome an advanced illness or grievous wound. Extreme unction is not performed on the lightly wounded or ambulatory sick.
C.L.: 2      Range: Touch     Save: No   Duration: Until the threat resolves/heals

Holy Barrier: The priest establishes a barrier up to 10 meters in diameter and centered on him self, across which diabolical beings, heretics, sorcerers and evil people cannot cross (no saving throw).
C.L.: 3      Range: Special   Save: No   Duration: Temporary

Holy Eucharist: The priest administers mass, including the consumption of the bread and wine made holy. A believer who has participated in the holy Eucharist within the last day receives a +1 bonus when attempting any saving throw vs. magic, insanity or fear and when performing a miracle.
C.L.: 1      Range: Touch      Save: No   Duration: One day

Holy Place: In this powerful ritual, the priest creates a permanently holy place, typically up to tens of meters across but possibly larger or smaller, that acts as an Enchanted or Holy location (see main rule book).  A holy place automatically acts as a Holy Barrier (as the spell of that name, above), and all believers within it benefit as if acting under a Blessing (also as the spell of that name). Finally, a priest's level is doubled with respect to spell casting rolls while occupying a holy place.
C.L.: 6      Range: Special   Save: No   Duration: Permanent

Last Rites The cleric anoints a dying person and absolves him of his sins, so that he can die knowing the way to heaven is open to him. This is extremely important to medieval believers. A person who has been given last rites cannot be raised as a zombie or used to create a skeleton.
C.L.: 2      Range: Touch      Save: No   Duration: Permanent

Matrimony The priest performs an official marriage between two members of his church.
C.L.: 1      Range: Ranged   Save: Yes   Duration: Hmmm....

Ordination The cleric elevates an acolyte to full priesthood. This sacrament must be performed before a character can gain the Priest ability. Only a bishop or higher-ranking prelate (or its equivalent in the religion in question) can perform an ordination.
C.L.: 3      Range: Touch      Save: No   Duration: Permanent

Neutralize Toxins:  The victim of a poison or other toxin is cleansed of its effects.
C.L.: 2      Range: Touch      Save: No   Duration: Permanent

Penance (also called 'Confession') The cleric hears a parishoner's confession and assigns penance worthy of cleansing him of his sins. This sacrament must be performed for a person in a state of sin before he can use his Devout ability (or similar heroic abilities).
C.L.: 2      Range: Ranged   Save: No   Duration: Permanent

Purify Food and Water: Enough food and/or water to provide for up to a number of people equal to the square of the caster's level is purified of all taint or disease.
C.L.: 3      Range: Touch      Save: No   Duration: Permanent

Recognize Evil: The cleric can identify anyone in sight or hearing that is intrinsically diabolical or evil in intent.
C.L.: 2      Range: Special   Save: No   Duration: Temporary

Restore the Faithful: A subject believer is instantly healed of all effects of non-wounding damage (i.e., injury or exhaustion less severe than wounds).
C.L.: 3      Range: Touch      Save: No   Duration: Permanent

Sanctification The priest sanctifies holy water, holy oil, an alter stone or cloth, or a small plot of hallowed ground. Holy water can be splashed on the undead and diabolical to cause 1 hit of damage per vial.  Holy oil can be used to anoint the sick in the sacrament of extreme unction (above). An alter stone and cloth is used to perform the Eucharist and other ceremonies, and hallowed ground is used to bury the faithful or found a church.
C.L.: 3      Range: Touch      Save: No   Duration: Permanent

Smite the Godless: The next blow struck by the cleric or paladin (or someone he supports), successfully aimed against a non-believer, gains a +2 bonus to the damage roll. It might be several turns between the performance of this miracle and when this blow lands.
C.L.: 2      Range: Touch      Save: No   Duration: Brief

Strength of the Righteous: The cleric or someone he supports gains a +2 bonus to saving throw related to a single, brief physical task (e.g., climbing a wall or lifting a gate).
C.L.: 2      Range: Ranged   Save: No   Duration: Temporary

In the old days, we'd run Christian clerics right out of the box.

So here's a subtle and realistic miracle system for just about any game.

d6

1. This trial is for your growth and benefit, bear it well.

2. This problem is the result of your own actions and you are expected to handle it yourself.

3. A wicked and sinful generation asks for signs, repent or fall from grace.

4. Sometimes when the storms rage God calms the storms and sometimes, like now, He calms his child.

5. God loves all his children, how could you ask him to treat his children so.

6. You didn't listen.  You weren't supposed to come here and do this, so don't expect any help.

Even subtler and more realistic:

roll 1d6:

1-6: Your god, like all the others, is only a sort of comforting extended metaphor.

Quote from: David Johansen;789441So here's a subtle and realistic miracle system for just about any game.

d6

1. This trial is for your growth and benefit, bear it well.

2. This problem is the result of your own actions and you are expected to handle it yourself.

3. A wicked and sinful generation asks for signs, repent or fall from grace.

4. Sometimes when the storms rage God calms the storms and sometimes, like now, He calms his child.

5. God loves all his children, how could you ask him to treat his children so.

6. You didn't listen.  You weren't supposed to come here and do this, so don't expect any help.

I admit that in my Planescape game, I was prone recently to just go out and say as a player prayed to Hoar while on Gloratha "The god you have reached is currently unavailable. Please pray again later."

There is the question of whether the violent, chaotic, amoral, materialistic motifs of 'old school' are really compatible with a Christian worldview ...

Quote from: Larsdangly;789442Even subtler and more realistic:

roll 1d6:

1-6: Your god, like all the others, is only a sort of comforting extended metaphor.

Sure in Traveller, but in a fanasy game, but if we go a little less system dependent:

d6

1. This trial is for your growth and benefit, bear it well.  Double experience for resolving this encounter.

2. This problem is the result of your own actions and you are expected to handle it yourself.  +1 to all actions.

3. A wicked and sinful generation asks for signs, repent or fall from grace.  Faith increases by one level if PC can resolve this encounter without complaining.

4. Sometimes when the storms rage God calms the storms and sometimes, like now, He calms his child.  +1 to morale and saving throws verses fear.

5. God loves all his children, how could you ask him to treat his children so.  +1 to reaction rolls from opposition.

6. You didn't listen. You weren't supposed to come here and do this, so don't expect any help.  Double experience for backing down from this encounter and back tracking to last decision points.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;789444There is the question of whether the violent, chaotic, amoral, materialistic motifs of 'old school' are really compatible with a Christian worldview ...

In a medieval game?  Seriously?

There can be so much goodness there -

In hoc signo vinces: "God told me to skin you alive."

or Pray for the poor sinner, because by the holy name of the mother of God, here she rides down from heaven leading her host and by sword or fire to scourge the un-faithful.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;789444There is the question of whether the violent, chaotic, amoral, materialistic motifs of 'old school' are really compatible with a Christian worldview ...

Read Blood of Prokopius. The author is an Orthodox who spends a lot of time thinking about how to run a B/X game in fantasy Europe. Such as the wilderness, especially as represented by the dungeon, is overrun by Chaos and it's the job of heroes to venture into it to defeat monsters and win forth lost treasures to be used in service of Lawful civilization.

I wouldn't mind running a game with non-Christian cleric types. But how many people want to run with a priest who insists on cutting out the hearts of dozens of foes and eating a bit of each?

Would you want to play a rabbi who's main job is memorizing holy books and giving out obscure pieces of advice?

Or do you want a flighty Earth-Mother priest in your party: "I believe we're all one with the rocks and trees and bugs." "Yeah, that's doesn't help us defeat orcs and ghouls."