I know it does, obviously. For me, it is enough to say that is a gigantic mass of little powers and abilities and attacks and requires rolling a dice pool. That tells me already that its bad for me.
But it also seems to be objectively broken as a game, to the point that even exalted fans themselves constantly bitch about it. I've read a term "paranoia-combat" being bandied about as an example of badness on rpg.net... what is that?
I want to hear delicious details of exactly how Exalted sucks.
RPGPundit
If you could summon Jon Chung, he would rip apart mechanically, but I don't know if he has an account here.
Suffice it to say that there are points where using the system becomes pointless. Wounds don't matter because most attacks can knock all of them out in one hit if they get through defenses, so combat focuses on making sure no one breaks through. Defenses mainly use Essence, and so Essence becomes the de-facto "HP" system for when a combat is about to get ended. Unfortunately that fact is tied to a system that uses the concept of "Perfect Defenses" and "Perfect Attacks" -- you spend the Essence, the attack/defense auto-succeeds. What happens here is that whoever can pull off the most Perfect Defenses is usually the winner. And so mechanically savvy players focus on building monstrosities that are focused solely on assuming everything is out to kill them in one hit -- Paranoia Combat builds -- a lot of them using loopholes or specific powers to regenerate Essence as quickly as possible in combat. If played by knowledgeable players, the better mechanical build will almost always win.
It could've been much better represented/abstracted if it wasn't relying on the base assumptions of the d10 system, and if more than half the powers out there weren't written by people who didn't understand the fundamentals of the system. They're trying to "patch" some of the more broken bits now, but it seems like too little, too late.
Amusingly, the combat system works pretty well for heroic mortals who don't use charms/magic, but once you get past a certain power-level, it just breaks down.
The power level demands a level of detail that, in the way the system operates, seems commensurate with more information - crunch - than I can usually bear. I gave up when it became clear that i needed a PhD in Charms to play the fucking thing.
Exalted could be awesome, but everything that got added beyond the first couple of books in the first edition just added and added and bloated it to the point of stupidity. More setting craziness, more gods, demons, spirits, and various options of power/exalts leads to yet more crunch.
Is there anything cool about Exalted to begin with?
I looked at the core book once at a gaming store. It didn't catch my attention at all.
Originally I wasn't interested but lately I've been thinking there's some cool stuff in there... if only the system wasn't so kludged up with mountains of crunch.
I've seen people mention playing it with the introductory/lite version of the rules as being the way to go.
Quote from: RPGPundit;457778I want to hear delicious details of exactly how Exalted sucks.
RPGPundit
There are two ways to win at Exalted combat:
1) The war of attrition. Straight-up combat will always be won by the guy who has the most "motes" (or the most efficient way of generating motes) to power Charms for attacks and perfect defenses. In practice, this means that combat is a boring slog and the winner is already a foregone conclusion. Chance--which is what makes combat interesting--doesn't even enter into the picture.
2) The war of paranoia. These combats will be won by the character who is built with an eye toward covering their asses in every possible situation, which effectively means that any drama of combat is lost in the shuffle of Charms that prevent sneak attacks, debilitating effects, etc.
In both cases, what this boils down to is that "character building" is a winnable mini-game that takes place prior to the game itself. And that sucks.
Quote from: ggroy;457802Is there anything cool about Exalted to begin with?
I looked at the core book once at a gaming store. It didn't catch my attention at all.
If you care to look past the anime/manga aesthetics and the messy system, I feel there's an interesting, wide open, kitchen-sink high fantasy setting, which could make for a great epic fantasy game with a sandbox feel. Circles of Exalted travelling the land, setting things right in the fringes of the Realm, keeping petty gods and spirits in line, evading capture by Dragon-Blooded forces, or even setting themselves up as kings.
Not to threadcrap, but I prefer Scion's take on the system. It has less power creep from a lack of supplements. I really enjoyed Scion...but then again, I actually like dice pools because of the tactile component. I don't care about game balance. However, much of Exalted apparently does, which is the killer for me.
Especially since there's just way too much of it.
Quote from: The Butcher;457806If you care to look past the anime/manga aesthetics and the messy system, I feel there's an interesting, wide open, kitchen-sink high fantasy setting, which could make for a great epic fantasy game with a sandbox feel. Circles of Exalted travelling the land, setting things right in the fringes of the Realm, keeping petty gods and spirits in line, evading capture by Dragon-Blooded forces, or even setting themselves up as kings.
Could this be similar to epic tier of 4E D&D?
Quote from: ggroy;457813Could this be similar to epic tier of 4E D&D?
Not sure. In D&D, even at very high levels, the gods are still distanced from the world and living in distant planes.
Exalted takes a more animistic approach, best exemplified by the comic in the beginning of the book; when the river dries up, you can walk up to it, call the river god/spirit a cunt, slap him around a bit, and tells him to give the good folk of Podunkville their water back, or else.
Also in Exalted, the crazy, over-the-top stuff starts happening right from the get-go. Like a supers game, you wake up one day and bam! you're a demigod.
D&D 4e = d20 Exalted.
Quote from: Benoist;457819D&D 4e = d20 Exalted.
Except without:
- starting characters already possessing the power of demigods
- a fully developed setting full of canon and lore
- a conceptual basis in East Asian-flavored fantasy and Greek myth
- a system based on die pools and spending "points" of power as resource management
- or much of anything, really.
But yeah, aside from all that, exactly the same! ;)
Quote from: The Butcher;457817Exalted takes a more animistic approach, best exemplified by the comic in the beginning of the book; when the river dries up, you can walk up to it, call the river god/spirit a cunt, slap him around a bit, and tells him to give the good folk of Podunkville their water back, or else.
Also in Exalted, the crazy, over-the-top stuff starts happening right from the get-go. Like a supers game, you wake up one day and bam! you're a demigod.
Heh. This sorta sounds like the "joke" 1E AD&D games we use to play back in the day, where we started all the characters at some ridiculously high level (ie. level 30+, level 40, level 50, etc ...). Essentially it became a "kill fest" where the magic users repeatedly used and abused all their wish spells. ;)
Its not broken, at all. Its just a story telling game and the dice barely matter.
Your characters, in my opinion, are barely suppose to be challenged. They are the Solar Exalted, the most powerful godlike breed. If you figure out how to break the system, one of the 20 ways our group managed it, that just means you are playing the game right. It's not D&D. The challenge is RPing the right social decisions, not dealing damage in combat.
That said, I don't like rolling that many dice. More than once I'd roll 8 dice for initiative and tie someone, or roll 22 dice to strike, 15 to damage, and only deal 1 point due to powers or armor. It is a little silly, and it is meant to be silly. Its making fun of itself.
Quote from: misterguignol;457820Except without:
- starting characters already possessing the power of demigods
- a fully developed setting full of canon and lore
- a conceptual basis in East Asian-flavored fantasy and Greek myth
- a system based on die pools and spending "points" of power as resource management
- or much of anything, really.
But yeah, aside from all that, exactly the same! ;)
You could, for the most part, emulate everything done in an Exalted game by making 5th level D&D characters, level them only to 10th, and not let NPCs have ANY LEVELS AT ALL unless they to are some kind of Exalted.
Quote from: Cranewings;457822Its not broken, at all. Its just a story telling game and the dice barely matter.
Your characters, in my opinion, are barely suppose to be challenged. They are the Solar Exalted, the most powerful godlike breed. If you figure out how to break the system, one of the 20 ways our group managed it, that just means you are playing the game right. It's not D&D. The challenge is RPing the right social decisions, not dealing damage in combat.
That said, I don't like rolling that many dice. More than once I'd roll 8 dice for initiative and tie someone, or roll 22 dice to strike, 15 to damage, and only deal 1 point due to powers or armor. It is a little silly, and it is meant to be silly. Its making fun of itself.
Was it originally designed as a spoof or parody type game? Did the designers ever mention this on the record?
Quote from: ggroy;457824Was it originally designed as a spoof or parody type game? Did the designers ever mention this on the record?
I'm not sure about that. I've just heard it a lot. It makes perfect sense though.
Its not parody in the story or art, but its just WAY over the top power gaming, and it isn't mistakable.
My character had a power called, "Perfect Dodge" or something. Invoking it made the enemy miss, no matter what. People don't put stuff like that in a game if they are trying to develop a balanced grind.
The key to making a "good character" is to have a Perfect Attack and a Perfect Defense, then invent a trick to stack your attack and damage rolls. It isn't hard. Its a dead give away what they are catering to.
Quote from: Cranewings;457822Its not broken, at all. Its just a story telling game and the dice barely matter.
That's a really interesting way of putting it, and probably true for the most part. In Exalted, combat is pretty binary: the PCs can either win a fight or they have no chance, and it becomes pretty apparent which outcome will happen pretty quickly. As you say, the dice barely matter; rolling seems like a formality.
The real problem with the game is that it isn't honest about this. It's written in such a way as to make you think that this is a game of high-action and perilous outcomes, but in reality the end game is pretty much written into the way the game works.
Quote from: Cranewings;457823You could, for the most part, emulate everything done in an Exalted game by making 5th level D&D characters, level them only to 10th, and not let NPCs have ANY LEVELS AT ALL unless they to are some kind of Exalted.
I'm not so sure; 5th levels characters in 4e can't do half the stuff a beginning Exalted Solar can.
Quote from: Cranewings;457823You could, for the most part, emulate everything done in an Exalted game by making 5th level D&D characters, level them only to 10th, and not let NPCs have ANY LEVELS AT ALL unless they to are some kind of Exalted.
Even easier: make all NPCs into 4E D&D style minions.
Quote from: Benoist;457819D&D 4e = d20 Exalted.
Hmmm ....
Wonder if any of 4E D&D's designers + developers were huge fans of Exalted. :rolleyes:
(ie. Mearls, Heinsoo, Wyatt, Baker, Bonner, Noonan, etc ...).
Well for starters there's the fact that most of the time people who are writing the sourcebooks have no fucking clue how the system works. (See: Sidereals.)
Then you have a clunky as hell dicepool mechanic in which you end up rolling 45 d10s and counting successes and counting automatic successes and counting exploding dice and throwing rerolls then counting the enemys defense values and GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGRH.
Also the Charms are sometimes written in such a way that you cant understand what the fuck it is that they are supposed to do. Million keywords, can you combo this charm with this, when can you use this charm, how much does it cost to use this charm, do you get successes or additional dice or re-rolls or an automatic parry or some other flavor of weeaboo fightan magicks or BLARGH.
I still play the game, mostly for the setting which I happen to like quite a lot.
Quote from: misterguignol;457827I'm not so sure; 5th levels characters in 4e can't do half the stuff a beginning Exalted Solar can.
Sorry, I ment 3.x / Pathfinder. Lightning bolt does far more damage to a group of mooks than Obsidian Butterflies and Force Missile is better than the attack spell vs. one enemy my caster of the Second Circle or whatever had (been awhile).
On top of that, want to talk about a greater cleaving, jumping, power attacking barbarian in Pathfinder vs. a Solar Exalted? I'm not sure its even a contest. Considering the kinds of monsters each one can bring down respectively in their own games, the Pathfinder Barbarian has him beat. Neither can be defeated by almost any number of mooks. Just how many 0 level warriors do you think it would take to cut down a 6th level barbarian with an AC of 20, two attacks, and a minimal damage that will kill anyone?
Quote from: ggroy;457828Even easier: make all NPCs into 4E D&D style minions.
Absolutely.
Though how the GM runs it matters. Ours didn't care about combat because he knew it was win or lose and how to pick stuff we couldn't beat, but he wasn't comfortable with the social powers. There was one magical day where we were broke heroes in a new town and the guy with half of the Presence powers couldn't talk down the price of a new set of clothing. (;
The second edition core book is mechanically fine. It's actually pretty unique and awesome with not much broken about it. The later major splat books (from lunars on)are where it broke. It's obviously un-play tested or vetted for compliance with other mechanics in the game. It's just a smorgasbord of freelancers ideas and mechanics.
I still like the game, it just sucks there is no shorthand for NPCs so creating them can be pretty time consuming.
First off, the audience for exalted isn't the same as wod ... so its not the same style of play. Players are meant to be challenged, and in fact most of the truly big bads aren't even beatable if you go by corebook alone. Thus isn't a case of bad storytelling cling or whatever, the system ia just plain borked. Which is a shame, because the setting does have interesting bits and some of the mechanical concepts around combat are pretty cool, it's just all the crap layered on top that destroys it.
Oh, and the power level and feel is totally different than 4e in play. Simultaneously more gritty and higher powered.
If there is one good overall thing about the system, it's that everything on your character sheet has an in game analogue, and the detail behind the powers and how they relate to the games cosmology is well done. I haven't played a game where the mechanics mapped so well to the game world, broken as they are.
I enjoy playing around with character creation and tinkering with the rules and looking at bits of setting here and there - I like creating entire Exalted campaigns in my head, but I've never been tempted to actually run a table, nor have I heard of anyone else doing so.
Quote from: Esgaldil;457888I enjoy playing around with character creation and tinkering with the rules and looking at bits of setting here and there - I like creating entire Exalted campaigns in my head, but I've never been tempted to actually run a table, nor have I heard of anyone else doing so.
Ran a 3 year campaign. But that was when I had a habit of running really fast and loose, so I doubt the system had anything to do with our fun. When I did finally get around to knowing the ins and outs, it became a burden in play.
Unfortunately I love the setting as its presented in the corebook, but the system has severe limitations on playability in some areas.
If you want a detailed look at the mechanical problems with Exalted you can check this thread out: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50260.
Over a series of posts FatR just takes the system apart. He explains why the dice pool system which works okay with 1 to 10 dice, but really breaks down with Exalted 10+ or 20+ for simple actions. Then he goes on to explain the power creep that someone up thread describe as "paranoia" where since every single power can kill you instantly the smart build is make your defense untouchable. I've never played Exalted, but I found his take-down of it fascinating.
One of the biggest problems with it is that they never set out to explain the convoluted mess that the mechanics are - and someone else mentioned stuff like Perfect Attack and Perfect Defense, and I think now I understand why we don't have clear charts and tables and so forth: they're trying to hide the fact.
Of course, WW did so extremely poorly: the designers hate D&D, they flat out say in the introduction they hate western fantasy. Indeed one of the last promotions of note WW did for the game said "Destroy a D&D book and send us the remains and we'll send you a copy of Exalted"
Anyway...
That aside, there's your first hurdle: the rules are buried in page after page of Naruto fanfic and next to impossible to find. Second, once you do find the rules, if you spread out beyond the core book, you run in to supplement designers who themselves didn't know how the core rules work. Third you've got the piling on of charm after charm and those wonky rules.
So this is what I have to say about Eggs-salted: If you're that hard to play gods, either have everyone roll up 20th level (or higher for later versions) D&D characters and go from there, or do what our group did and use Hero System with 500+ point character builds and ignore trying to emulate Charms mechanics entirely.
I thought the first few Exalted 1e books were cool. But they went more and more anime and less and less Greek myth.
Quote from: danbuter;457900I thought the first few Exalted 1e books were cool. But they went more and more anime and less and less Greek myth.
I never got a "greek myth" vibe from Exalted. I think they paid it and some of the freakier parts like
Medea lip service but they were always in that Japanese animation and comics vibe from the get go. When I first saw it I said "Well shit this is Masamune Shirow's
Orion: The Role-Playing Game."
I have the Exaulted PDF on my computer but as it's a PDF I haven't read it and I have no desire to give White Wolf money.
I have played Scion and it is a mess but it's an entertaining mess. Especially if you play it with serious old School D&Ders.
Given the power of a little god they twink away and then get surprised when the other players can't keep up. Very amusting.
Quote from: Peregrin;457780If you could summon Jon Chung, he would rip apart mechanically, but I don't know if he has an account here.
Suffice it to say that there are points where using the system becomes pointless. Wounds don't matter because most attacks can knock all of them out in one hit if they get through defenses, so combat focuses on making sure no one breaks through. Defenses mainly use Essence, and so Essence becomes the de-facto "HP" system for when a combat is about to get ended. Unfortunately that fact is tied to a system that uses the concept of "Perfect Defenses" and "Perfect Attacks" -- you spend the Essence, the attack/defense auto-succeeds. What happens here is that whoever can pull off the most Perfect Defenses is usually the winner. And so mechanically savvy players focus on building monstrosities that are focused solely on assuming everything is out to kill them in one hit -- Paranoia Combat builds -- a lot of them using loopholes or specific powers to regenerate Essence as quickly as possible in combat. If played by knowledgeable players, the better mechanical build will almost always win.
It could've been much better represented/abstracted if it wasn't relying on the base assumptions of the d10 system, and if more than half the powers out there weren't written by people who didn't understand the fundamentals of the system. They're trying to "patch" some of the more broken bits now, but it seems like too little, too late.
Amusingly, the combat system works pretty well for heroic mortals who don't use charms/magic, but once you get past a certain power-level, it just breaks down.
Ah, excellent explanation! Thank you very much.
RPGPundit