Was cruising back through threads catching up and I came across this.

Quote from: Zachary The First...Where'd you'd roll up characters you were never going to play, and create elaborate dungeons no one would ever see just for fun....

I just chalk that up to idle youthful enthusiasm. My personal line is when you can vote and you still do that. But others? *shrug* I'm not saying Zachary does this now, it isn't clear to me from that post, and I don't mean to pick on him. But he's the nail that stuck up first. :keke:

So why would I consider that a 'crap on the lawn' as it were? Because to convince my wife to play that was a big hurdle to overcome, the image of wiling away the hours creating a stack of character sheets several inches thick with the full knowledge and expectation that they'd never be played.  Oh, and another guy always whining about wanting to be a "beast rider" or something.  Because that was her first husband and his brothers.

So I ask again, uh, is that your turd on the lawn over there?

DISCLAIMER:  Zachary just had the misfortune of having his youthful expression for games intersecting in a misfortunate way with my experience convincing someone to start playing RPGs. No matter what James says, I think Zachary is a nice guy!

How do blakkie failed English?

or

What did you just say?

Enthusiasm in a hobby is basically a prerequisite for being in the hobby. If you're not enthusiastic about it, why do it?

Over-enthusiasm - engaging in the hobby, or discussing it, when it's not entirely welcome - is basically Sign of Geek. When someone's babbling about stuff just a little bit longer than we're interested in hearing about it, we think "what a geek!"

That's not crapping on anyone's lawn, that's just normal human interactions, nothing peculiar to rpgs.

Crapping on someone's lawn is an act of deliberate offence. So, "Lawn-Crappers" is meant to be talking about Cat Piss Man and dorks like that. Rolling up random dungeons and characters in the privacy of your own home doesn't really cut it. In fact, it's exactly equivalent to discussing rpgs on a forum for the purpose - you know, like you're doing now.

I know that as a Forger you're obliged to show public contempt for gamer geeks and their enthusiasm for gaming, but really, can't you be more subtle about it?

Quote from: fonkaygarryHow do blakkie failed English?

or

What did you just say?

He's saying that enthusiasm for the hobby, as shown by rolling up characters you know you'll never play, that sort of thing - enthusiasm is offensive, and makes the roleplaying hobby look bad.

QuoteI know that as a Forger you're obliged to show public contempt for gamer geeks and their enthusiasm for gaming, but really, can't you be more subtle about it?

blakkie isn't really a Forger.  He's just an overgrown junior high school student, reliving his teenage rebellion by playing the part on a message board for the purpose of pissing people off.

Same shit, different shovel.

Quote from: JimBobOzSame shit, different shovel.

True enough.

Quote from: blakkieSo why would I consider that a 'crap on the lawn' as it were? Because to convince my wife to play that was a big hurdle to overcome, the image of wiling away the hours creating a stack of character sheets several inches thick with the full knowledge and expectation that they'd never be played.  Oh, and another guy always whining about wanting to be a "beast rider" or something.  Because that was her first husband and his brothers.

So I ask again, uh, is that your turd on the lawn over there?

You have a problem with gamers using their imagination, and spending free time indulging in flights of fantasy, like most humans do occasionally, except when a gamer imagines creating a really cool dungeon/character/plot, theres nothing to stop him picking up a pencil and trying?

Are you sure you're in the right hobby?

Maybe Zachary the First refused sexual advances and got singled out for a flame thread?

Quote from: JimBobOzEnthusiasm in a hobby is basically a prerequisite for being in the hobby. If you're not enthusiastic about it, why do it?

Over-enthusiasm - engaging in the hobby, or discussing it, when it's not entirely welcome - is basically Sign of Geek. When someone's babbling about stuff just a little bit longer than we're interested in hearing about it, we think "what a geek!"

That's not crapping on anyone's lawn, that's just normal human interactions, nothing peculiar to rpgs.

It doesn't fit the 'Lawn Crapper' write-up to the letter, yet it becomes a barrier to new people getting into RPGs. Which is what the underlying thrust of that essay was about.

QuoteCrapping on someone's lawn is an act of deliberate offence. So, "Lawn-Crappers" is meant to be talking about Cat Piss Man and dorks like that.

Pretty sure this was covered a long time back, but it isn't always necessarily quite as deliberate as you'd think. There can be a basic lack of comprehension and or lack of skill development. It's really quite hard to wrap your mind around it, but it's there.

QuoteRolling up random dungeons and characters in the privacy of your own home doesn't really cut it.

.....up until someone shows up. It's like a secret in only a secret until you tell someone.

QuoteIn fact, it's exactly equivalent to discussing rpgs on a forum for the purpose - you know, like you're doing now.

Roughly equivalent? The difference is I'm here for a fairly utilitarian purpose towards gaming. But maybe my turd is out there too? *shrug* Something to think about.

QuoteI know that as a Forger you're obliged....

... to never post there, and apparently read there far less often than is common here? It is quite ironic that I was a poster here (before the management change) before I ever picked up an IPR game or knew about The Forge. :rolleyes:

Quote from: O'BorgYou have a problem with gamers using their imagination, and spending free time indulging in flights of fantasy, like most humans do occasionally, except when a gamer imagines creating a really cool dungeon/character/plot, theres nothing to stop him picking up a pencil and trying?

Well I wouldn't even consider refusing to game with someone on that basis. As well I was aware that people did this before I ever started playing. So it wasn't really a barrier to me.  Now if they spent the time that I showed up to play like that? That would be an issue, but that's a different thing.

Quote from: James McMurrayMaybe Zachary the First refused sexual advances and got singled out for a flame thread?

Then I need to work on my flame technique. :hehe:

Quote from: meI'm not saying Zachary does this now, it isn't clear to me from that post, and I don't mean to pick on him.

Yeah, you can say you're not targetting someone when you use their name and invoke accusations of lawn crapping, but then you end up with threads that aren't really calling Borgstrom a Moron, they're just using it in the title.

Quote from: James McMurrayYeah, you can say you're not targetting someone when you use their name and invoke accusations of lawn crapping, but then you end up with threads that aren't really calling Borgstrom a Moron, they're just using it in the title.

 Well then let me add a disclaimer to the top to make it extra clear.

P.S.  I will remain silent on my opinion of Zachary's "Moron" status.

Yup. Dumb thread.

Look, I've seen people who are heavily into model railroading, or building RC model tanks or ships and then blowing them up, or (again RC) model planes/sailplanes. Or wargaming...or many another hobby. They get into technical geekery about their hobby and have fun with that. It does mean that people with casual interest aren't going to be able to participate, but it doesn't create a social barrier that's extraneous to the activity itself, like publicly flaunting obsessions with deviant sexual practices, or being socially crippled.

Basically the issue of lawncrapping doesn't have to do with what people do in their hobby, it has to do with whether the hobby provides a gathering point for people who'd be shunned in normal social situations.

QuoteBasically the issue of lawncrapping doesn't have to do with what people do in their hobby, it has to do with whether the hobby provides a gathering point for people who'd be shunned in normal social situations.

But why is it a problem for being a gather point for those?  Isn't it because it creates a stigma about everyone that plays, lays the foundation for a prejudice. The kernel of truth for the illusion to build around.