Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 11:53:32 AM

You all (or at least most of you) think this is little more than virtue signaling. I disagree. And since I know and respect several members of the committee (many of whom have infinitely more experience in the game industry than any of you here) and I know they are people of integrity, I feel confident in my assessment.

Lou Prosperi

No one here gives a flying turtle turd about the "industry."  We care about good game play.  Increasingly, RPG publishers put out crap that is unusable at the table.  They are coffee table books with occasional stats. 

I don't "think" it's about virtue signaling, the damn website tells me it is.  There are five finalists and there is nothing in the descriptions that gives me anything to consider on their merits.  It's just "this person is <special group> and works for so-and-so."  Having carefully gone through the material for two of the entrants, I have no faith that there is any more meaning behind the selection process than "not straight white men."

Seriously, Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel is an unusable book for game play purposes.  Roots is so shallow that the board game offers more depth and character development options.  I repeat, the board game gives more RP opportunity than the RPG.  Both of these were products I was interested in and set money aside to purchase.  From a gamer's perspective, the publishers for these books are swindlers.

Edit: clearing up a fat fingered mistake

Quote from: S'mon on June 27, 2023, 01:50:25 AM
2019: Star Crossed, a role-playing game by Alex Roberts, published by Bully Pulpit Games[17]
2020: Black Excellence in Gaming, awarded to more than two dozen black professionals including Omari Akil, Maurice Broaddus, Allie Bustion, Tanya DePass, Brandon Dixon, Julia B. Ellingboe, Jerry Grayson, Shareef Jackson, Cliff "CJ" Jones, Eric Lang, Eloy Lasanta, Rich Lescouflair, Brandon O'Brien, Cody Pondsmith, Mike Pondsmith, Marcus Ross and Cara Michele Ryan, Laura Simpson, Chris Spivey, Bryan Tillman, Allen Turner, Aaron Trammell, Jabari Weathers, Travis Williams, and Camdon Wright.[18][19]
2021: NIBCARD Games, "A strong and original voice in publishing, creating a community of new makers and players across Africa and setting an example to the rest of the world of how to use games to make a difference."[20]
2022: Ajit George, for his activism in advocating for a more representative and diverse hobby games industry.[21][/i]

Looking at the website descriptions, 2001-18 all seem to be about gaming. The 2019 award seems marginal, it looks like it was primarily about promoting a LGBTQI game rather than eg design excellence, but 2020 is a clear inflection point where it becomes explicitly a Woke award. If I were Mike Pondsmith I'd have felt pretty patronised to be given a pat on the head for my 'black excellence in gaming' along with a bunch of relative nobodies!

That seems fair. (Pundit might hate The Forge as Swine, but back in the day, The Forge wasn't particularly political.) For what it's worth, I've played "Star-Crossed" and Roberts' other popular card game, "For the Queen" - they're solid games for those with indie/story-game tastes, but I'm not sure what their competition would be. I had been maintaining the Indie RPG Awards through 2017, but I stopped in 2018.

The 2020 through 2022 awards don't seem to highlight game play at all. To be fair, politics overwhelmed game discussion in a lot of places by 2016 at the latest.

While I'll discuss politics on Pundit's forum, I've generally tried to keep my political activism separate from my gaming. I think for the most part, small press tabletop RPGs only preach to the converted.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 11:53:32 AM(many of whom have infinitely more experience in the game industry than any of you here)

You sure about that? Because you better be sure about that before you say such fucking retarded nonsense.

Quote from: jhkim on June 28, 2023, 01:32:36 PM
That seems fair. (Pundit might hate The Forge as Swine, but back in the day, The Forge wasn't particularly political.)

As you know, I'm always fair. 

I agree re The Forge - I think it was harmful to the RPG industry, but it wasn't political in the modern sense. The strongest Forge advocate I knew IRL BiTD (2003/4) was a far right German ex-bodyguard lady who Blackwater were trying to get to go work for them in Iraq (she showed me some emails). I loaned her a Sven Hassel book, and she complained it was disparaging the Third Reich. But she had no problem with Ron Edwards & The Forge, and indeed posted there a bit.

Edited. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site. I bow to your collective and superior wisdom.

Edited. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site. I bow to your collective and superior wisdom.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 03:51:22 PM
So yeah, I'm pretty sure about it.
Lou Prosperi

Imagine posting this reply and not realizing who else posts on this board...pathetic.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 03:32:57 PM

While I no longer work in the industry, I think my past experience in RPGs should lend me at least some degree of credibility on a site called "The RPGSite".


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

It did.  You lit it all on fire when you started stumping for an obvious political pandering stunt.  Then you lied to us that it wasn't what it was.  (You suck at gaslighting.)

The absolute arrogance you displayed thinking that you are so important here because you were an independent contributor for some games and developer for FASA's shittiest line blows me away.  You aren't anywhere near the highest profile creator on this site.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 28, 2023, 12:02:38 PM
No one cares what you think here because you have no credibility whatsoever. You're just another dweeb on the internet whose opinion is a mouse fart in a maelstrom. 

Daaaaaamn. I'm gonna have to steal this one for later use.

So this is from the FAQ:

Quote
Why is this award different?
The Diana Jones Award is decided on merit, not popularity or commercial success. You may never have heard of some of the finalists, but you can be certain that they are all outstanding in their fields. What is more, because the winner is chosen by a closed, mostly anonymous committee, it is impossible for a manufacturer or publisher to stuff the ballot or interfere with the voting.

How does this even make sense? The committee is mostly anonymous, and that somehow guarantees no shenanigans? Yeah, sure, in opposite land maybe. The votes were counted by an anonymous group of people, so trust us here's the winner. LOL.

Besides the blatant virtue signaling going on, the finalists this year just look, well, boring.

Also, where's the "merit" in being born a certain color or in having certain sexual preferences? Merit? Really?

This just comes across as a massive progressive wank fest, or whatever it is non-binary people do in that regard. Wanx?

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 03:32:57 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 28, 2023, 12:02:38 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 11:53:32 AM
think this is little more than virtue signaling. I disagree. And since I know and respect several members of the committee (many of whom have infinitely more experience in the game industry than any of you here) and I know they are people of integrity, I feel confident in my assessment.

No one cares what you think here because you have no credibility whatsoever. You're just another dweeb on the internet whose opinion is a mouse fart in a maelstrom. 

Well, in terms of RPGs, I think I have more credibility than you give me credit for. I worked in the RPG industry for roughly 15 years in various capacities starting in the late 1980s. My RPG credits include:

Contributing to DC HEROES 2nd Edition (Mayfair Games)
Member of the design team for CHILL 2nd Edition (Mayfair Games)

I did freelance writing/design for:
TORG (West End Games)
Star Wars (West End Games)
AD&D Dark Sun (TSR)
AD&D Greyhawk (TSR)
Shadowrun (FASA)
Star Trek: TNG (Last Unicorn Games)
Hunter: The Reckoning (White Wolf)
Stargate SG-1 (Alderaac Entertainment Group)

In addition to that, I worked in-house at FASA as the Product Line Developer for Earthdawn from December 1992 through June 1998.

Along the way I also wrote articles for a couple of RPG magazines such as Shadis, White Wolf, and others.

I also created a (short-lived) website devoted to serious discussion of RPGs that hosted articles from older print magazines such as articles that originally appeared in Inter*Action/Interactive Fiction, an RPG magazine published in the early-to mid 1990s.

While I no longer work in the industry, I think my past experience in RPGs should lend me at least some degree of credibility on a site called "The RPGSite".


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

Yeah but Lou - could you be participating in Authority Bias? You're suggesting that giving people a mark of achievement (an award) for doing nothing recognizably worth achievement, by tabletop RPG standards, is cool. Did the recipient design an rpg that generated top sales? Did they design an rpg that changed how a large segment of the community plays rpgs? The Diana Jones award "celebrates everything that's the best about gaming", right? It recognizes excellence, correct?

What have the current crop of candidates done that would be recognized as "excellence" or them being "the best" amongst all the members of the tabletop rpg community? Be real, because maybe you failed to recognize the room here, but next to no one on this site is concerned with your so-called "credentials" bearing witness to the current Diana Jones award candidates possessing the requisite rpg expertise to be considered "the best".

Your credibility isn't the issue - it's the award candidates', and how they're selected (which would explain the real purpose of the "award").

Quote from: rytrasmi on June 28, 2023, 06:21:36 PM
So this is from the FAQ:

Quote
Why is this award different?
The Diana Jones Award is decided on merit, not popularity or commercial success. You may never have heard of some of the finalists, but you can be certain that they are all outstanding in their fields. What is more, because the winner is chosen by a closed, mostly anonymous committee, it is impossible for a manufacturer or publisher to stuff the ballot or interfere with the voting.

How does this even make sense? The committee is mostly anonymous, and that somehow guarantees no shenanigans? Yeah, sure, in opposite land maybe. The votes were counted by an anonymous group of people, so trust us here's the winner. LOL.

Besides the blatant virtue signaling going on, the finalists this year just look, well, boring.

Also, where's the "merit" in being born a certain color or in having certain sexual preferences? Merit? Really?

This just comes across as a massive progressive wank fest, or whatever it is non-binary people do in that regard. Wanx?

Greetings!

Spot on, Rytrasmi!

The entire award is a circle jerk for the Woke!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 28, 2023, 06:32:20 PM
Yeah but Lou - could you be participating in Authority Bias? You're suggesting that giving people a mark of achievement (an award) for doing nothing recognizably worth achievement, by tabletop RPG standards, is cool. Did the recipient design an rpg that generated top sales? Did they design an rpg that changed how a large segment of the community plays rpgs? The Diana Jones award "celebrates everything that's the best about gaming", right? It recognizes excellence, correct?

You're emphasizing "top sales" and what a "large segment" of gamers play. Even though I don't agree about the Diana Jones' recent award choices, I don't think those criteria are ideal. As I said earlier, if "top sales" and "large segment plays" are the criteria, then the award will always go to D&D or the latest D&D product.

But popularity isn't the same thing as excellence. If something is top in sales, it doesn't need more recognition -- while there are often (IMO) great games that get overlooked by a lot of the public because of limited marketing or other factors.

I've rarely paid much attention to the Diana Jones Award in past years (pre-2019 when I was more involved in that side of things), but sometimes I would give another look at what it recognizes. Like, I'd be curious to learn more about the Root board game and Root RPG.

Quote from: jhkim on June 28, 2023, 07:14:10 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 28, 2023, 06:32:20 PM
Yeah but Lou - could you be participating in Authority Bias? You're suggesting that giving people a mark of achievement (an award) for doing nothing recognizably worth achievement, by tabletop RPG standards, is cool. Did the recipient design an rpg that generated top sales? Did they design an rpg that changed how a large segment of the community plays rpgs? The Diana Jones award "celebrates everything that's the best about gaming", right? It recognizes excellence, correct?

You're emphasizing "top sales" and what a "large segment" of gamers play. Even though I don't agree about the Diana Jones' recent award choices, I don't think those criteria are ideal. As I said earlier, if "top sales" and "large segment plays" are the criteria, then the award will always go to D&D or the latest D&D product.

But popularity isn't the same thing as excellence. If something is top in sales, it doesn't need more recognition -- while there are often (IMO) great games that get overlooked by a lot of the public because of limited marketing or other factors.

I've rarely paid much attention to the Diana Jones Award in past years (pre-2019 when I was more involved in that side of things), but sometimes I would give another look at what it recognizes. Like, I'd be curious to learn more about the Root board game and Root RPG.

My emphasis is "what is the Diana Jones award FOR"? And I want big Lou to answer. Because it obviously 'aint for sales or innovation. Is it, in reality, for persons who've espoused socially progressive, left-wing or liberal views, including feminism, civil rights, gay and transgender rights, identity politics, political correctness and multiculturalism?

If so, Lou, just make it plain, is all I'm asking 

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 03:32:57 PM
I did freelance writing/design for:
TORG (West End Games)
Star Wars (West End Games)
AD&D Dark Sun (TSR)
AD&D Greyhawk (TSR)
Shadowrun (FASA)
Star Trek: TNG (Last Unicorn Games)
Hunter: The Reckoning (White Wolf)
Stargate SG-1 (Alderaac Entertainment Group)

So the fuck what? 'Contributed' could mean anything including a few little lines or basically stuff you were told to write. Tell us where YOUR game, or YOUR big idea is. Not a few bits and pieces you've worked on. Pfft.

And even if I did believe you worked with all this material. I say again, so fucking what? And what the fuck has that got to do with us thinking that some silly award is legitimate or not? Your experience and some of the other judge's experience does not in any way validate or invalidate the argument. That hokum is just a complete non-sequitur.

Do you actually know how to construct a logical argument? lol