TheRPGSite

All #ttrpg awards have always been kind of a joke. But this year they have reached a whole new level of Woke virtue signaling nonsense.
#dnd #osr #dianajones #gencon

Link to the award site:

https://www.dianajonesaward.org/the-2023-award/

More like the Socialists, Jerks & Whiners Participation Award  ;D

(https://media.tenor.com/VK2SXS1UrkQAAAAC/wokescold-season-wokescold.gif)

Cue in Jhkim deffending the honor of Coyote & Crow in 10, 9, 8, 7...

Maybe we need to create our own award:

I give you The Magnificent Award from Gamers for Authors.

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 10:18:57 PM
More like the Socialists, Jerks & Whiners Participation Award  ;D

(https://media.tenor.com/VK2SXS1UrkQAAAAC/wokescold-season-wokescold.gif)

LOL! Yes you too can throw off the yolk of colonialism and play Coyote & Crow, where you get to play authentic native American adventures without the influence of white devils. You will get to do exciting things such as enslaving enemy tribes, and burning captives alive. Fun for the whole family. Ages 10 and up.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 08:00:38 AM

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 10:18:57 PM
More like the Socialists, Jerks & Whiners Participation Award  ;D

(https://media.tenor.com/VK2SXS1UrkQAAAAC/wokescold-season-wokescold.gif)

LOL! Yes you too can throw off the yolk of colonialism and play Coyote & Crow, where you get to play authentic native American adventures without the influence of white devils. You will get to do exciting things such as enslaving enemy tribes, and burning captives alive. Fun for the whole family. Ages 10 and up.

That would have sold the game to me! ;)

Quote from: Aglondir on June 25, 2023, 08:47:51 PM
Link to the award site:

https://www.dianajonesaward.org/the-2023-award/

I just got brain cancer reading that.

Quote from: Aglondir on June 25, 2023, 08:47:51 PM
Link to the award site:

https://www.dianajonesaward.org/the-2023-award/

https://web.archive.org/web/20230621225107/https://www.dianajonesaward.org/the-2023-award/

So you don't have to give them clicks.

I've no problem with people winning legitimate awards but that type of fakery is obnoxious.
What are the criteria for getting one of these 'prestigious' awards?

Ah... So basically, if you've got the magic blood or are queer you are in there. LOOOL TBH, I've personally never recognized any of that shit anyway including the ennies.

I personally find it hilarious that one of the finalists is a WotC product, and one of the others is Linda Codega, who helped pummel WotC into submission regarding the OGL debacle.

I guess Radiant Citadel's wokeness outweighed its publication by the Evil Empire, eh? At least the Emperor makes the trains run on time, right?

Forget it. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site. I bow to your collective and superior wisdom.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 07:01:32 PM
Tell us you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees will get without saying you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees will get.

It's not an award for game design, and it's not an award based on popularity or sales. This award was created as reaction to the other awards where the winners are based on popularity. The members of the committee (those who who select the nominees and pick the winner) are all game industry professionals with extensive experience and credentials.

For those who care to look, the process for how the nominees and winner are selected is here:

https://www.dianajonesaward.org/nominations-deadlines/


Lou Prosperi

So it IS about virtue signaling and not about the quality, importance or popularity of the nominees.

Thanks for participating.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 07:01:32 PM
Tell us you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees

Absolutely... I weep deeply for not having the 'recognition' and I'm totally 'jealous' too!!

Oh, won't someone please give me an award from these whoeverthefucks??  ;D

Edited. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site. I bow to your collective and superior wisdom.

Edited. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site. I bow to your collective and superior wisdom.

They'd have to be on the committee and vote for themselves first.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 26, 2023, 02:18:08 AM
Maybe we need to create our own award:

I give you The Magnificent Award from Gamers for Authors.

Genius.

This must be a thing.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 08:04:01 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 26, 2023, 07:32:48 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 07:01:32 PM
Tell us you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees

Absolutely... I weep deeply for not having the 'recognition' and I'm totally 'jealous' too!!

Oh, won't someone please give me an award from these whoeverthefucks??  ;D

I'm willing to bet that if you or Pundit were nominated for this award you'd be far less critical.

And if you bothered to look at the names of the committee members you'd realize that being recognized by people with their experience and credentials means you're doing something right.


Lou Prosperi

As Rippa (Of Rippaverse fame) uses to say:

"I don't care about the recognition of broke ass weirdoes, I care about my consumers and my bank account" (I'm paraphrasing)

Rippa has made 3.5 million on his first GN and is on his way to repeat the feat on the second one, without the recognition of the mainstream and no coverage from the comic book press.

Pundit lives comfortably from his RPGs and related products, how many of those on the comitee or nominee list can say the same?

Coyote & Crow dude IS broke after over 1 million KS. I'm willing to bet the same is true for the rest.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 08:04:01 PMAnd if you bothered to look at the names of the committee members you'd realize that being recognized by people with their experience and credentials means you're doing something right.

I saw the names. Unimpressed. Their experience is mostly writing crap I wouldn't buy or play.

If you want to know if a game is good, look at two things - Sales and Actual Play. Good games sell (beyond their initial kickstarter) and good games get played and not left on the shelf.

Wanna see the best games of 2022? Look at convention schedules and see which are being run by fans, not the author.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 08:04:01 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 26, 2023, 07:32:48 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 07:01:32 PM
Tell us you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees

Absolutely... I weep deeply for not having the 'recognition' and I'm totally 'jealous' too!!

Oh, won't someone please give me an award from these whoeverthefucks??  ;D

I'm willing to bet that if you or Pundit were nominated for this award you'd be far less critical.

And if you bothered to look at the names of the committee members you'd realize that being recognized by people with their experience and credentials means you're doing something right.


Lou Prosperi

Whataboutisim. Pundit isn't up for an award (but at least he's sold a decent amount of stuff and has the receipts to prove it). Not sure why you're trying to bring this up though, and I'd like to see you prove that too! lol, I'll wait.

Their credentials? The only one I recognize is Ken Hite (and he's talented to be fair). The rest are whoeverthefucks as far as I'm concerned. And I wouldn't buy anything from any of the awardees because I think their products are a pile of sheeeet (YMMV).

I also don't recognize this or any RPG award. Except for the one on this site, FTW!

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 08:01:27 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 26, 2023, 07:25:33 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 07:01:32 PM
Tell us you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees will get without saying you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees will get.

It's not an award for game design, and it's not an award based on popularity or sales. This award was created as reaction to the other awards where the winners are based on popularity. The members of the committee (those who who select the nominees and pick the winner) are all game industry professionals with extensive experience and credentials.

For those who care to look, the process for how the nominees and winner are selected is here:

https://www.dianajonesaward.org/nominations-deadlines/


Lou Prosperi

So it IS about virtue signaling and not about the quality, importance or popularity of the nominees.

Thanks for participating.

It's entirely about the quality and importance of the nominees. The members of the committee look for products, people, and concepts that they feel represent excellence in gaming. Does that mean it's subjective? To a point, but that's why the initial set of nominations are voted on by the rest of the committee before the final set of nominees is selected. You assume that the committee members lack integrity and would only submit nominations for purposes of virtue signaling, but you have no evidence of that whatsoever.


Lou Prosperi

LOL! This dude's feelings are hurt because people crapped all over his beloved Participation award  ;D ;D ;D

It's the stupidest award EVER! Why? Because they give it out "just because"  ::) From Wikipedia:

QuoteThe award is unusual in two ways: first, it is not an award for a specific class of thing, but can be awarded to a person, product, publication, company, organization, event or trend – anything related to gaming; second, it does not count popularity or commercial success as a sign of "excellence"

HM. Well, let's look at the definition of the noun, "award":

Quotea prize or other mark of recognition given in honor of an achievement.

What about "excellence"?

Quotethe quality of being outstanding or extremely good.

So the "Indie" Diana (Indiana) Jones "award" isn't even a fkn award. What's even better? The original trophy contained the word "NAZI™" in it - how very appropriate since they're Socialists  ::)

(https://64.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6eb54nzrX1qafsv7o1_500.gif)

Quote from: Spinachcat on June 26, 2023, 08:27:28 PM
If you want to know if a game is good, look at two things - Sales and Actual Play. Good games sell (beyond their initial kickstarter) and good games get played and not left on the shelf.

Wanna see the best games of 2022? Look at convention schedules and see which are being run by fans, not the author.

That's popularity. By this measure, D&D 5E is by far the best game.

I agree that popularity shows something - but it's not everything. There are a lot of games that I love that never get run at conventions, say, unless I run them. That said, I actually bought zero new RPG systems in 2022, so I don't have an opinion on what the best new games are.

What I'd love to see is what posters picks are for what they think the best new games of 2022 are. I've stopped running the Indie RPG Awards, and I haven't played new systems in a while - but I'm still curious.

It's interesting looking at the previous winners and how it transitioned to a fully Woke award. From Wikipedia:

2001: Peter Adkison, founder of Wizards of the Coast.
2002: awarded jointly to Ron Edwards and his game Sorcerer.
2003: awarded jointly to Jordan Weisman, a founder of FASA Corporation and WizKids, and to Nobilis second edition.
2004: My Life with Master by Paul Czege.
2005: Ticket to Ride, the board game by Alan Moon, published by Days of Wonder.
2006: Irish Game Convention Charity Auctions, at Gaelcon and Warpcon, for their generosity.
2007: The Great Pendragon Campaign, by Greg Stafford, a supplement for the Pendragon role-playing game (published by White Wolf, Inc.).
2008: awarded jointly to Grey Ranks by Jason Morningstar, and to Wolfgang Baur and his Open Design business model.
2009: Dominion, a card game by Donald X. Vaccarino (published by Rio Grande Games)
2010: Boardgamegeek.com, a website edited by Scott Alden and Derk Solko.[11]
2011: Fiasco, a roleplaying game by Jason Morningstar.[12]
2012: Nordic Larp, a book about the LARP scene in the Nordic countries, edited by Jaakko Stenros and Markus Montola.[13]
2013: Tabletop, a web series where various celebrities join Wil Wheaton in playing board games.[14]
2014: Hillfolk an RPG by Robin Laws.[15]
2015: The Guide to Glorantha by Greg Stafford, Sandy Petersen and Jeff Richard, published by Moon Design Publications. A large two volume sourcebook for Stafford's fantasy world of Glorantha.
2016: Eric Lang, game designer
2017: Gen Con, the game convention where the Diana Jones Award is presented
2018: Actual Play, the "movement within hobby games in which people record and broadcast their game sessions — particularly campaigns of tabletop roleplaying games — over the internet"[16]
2019: Star Crossed, a role-playing game by Alex Roberts, published by Bully Pulpit Games[17]
2020: Black Excellence in Gaming, awarded to more than two dozen black professionals including Omari Akil, Maurice Broaddus, Allie Bustion, Tanya DePass, Brandon Dixon, Julia B. Ellingboe, Jerry Grayson, Shareef Jackson, Cliff "CJ" Jones, Eric Lang, Eloy Lasanta, Rich Lescouflair, Brandon O'Brien, Cody Pondsmith, Mike Pondsmith, Marcus Ross and Cara Michele Ryan, Laura Simpson, Chris Spivey, Bryan Tillman, Allen Turner, Aaron Trammell, Jabari Weathers, Travis Williams, and Camdon Wright.[18][19]
2021: NIBCARD Games, "A strong and original voice in publishing, creating a community of new makers and players across Africa and setting an example to the rest of the world of how to use games to make a difference."[20]
2022: Ajit George, for his activism in advocating for a more representative and diverse hobby games industry.[21]

Looking at the website descriptions, 2001-18 all seem to be about gaming. The 2019 award seems marginal, it looks like it was primarily about promoting a LGBTQI game rather than eg design excellence, but 2020 is a clear inflection point where it becomes explicitly a Woke award. If I were Mike Pondsmith I'd have felt pretty patronised to be given a pat on the head for my 'black excellence in gaming' along with a bunch of relative nobodies!

BTW I had always assumed it was named after fantasy author Diana Jones, the Wikipedia article disabused me:

The Diana Jones trophy was originally created as a keepsake in the UK offices of TSR in the mid 1980s to commemorate the ending of their license to publish The Adventures of Indiana Jones Role-Playing Game.[5] The trophy itself was a lucite pyramid containing the burnt remains of the last unsold copy of the game; all that was legible of the title was "diana Jones".[5] (There is no relation of the award with fantasy author Diana Wynne Jones.) The trophy was "liberated" and eventually ended up with the Diana Jones committee.[6] The destruction of "one of the least-loved and critically savaged games of all time" was seen an appropriate symbol for an award for excellence in gaming.[2][7] The trophy also contains a counter that reads "Nazi™" from the game.[8]

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 08:01:27 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 26, 2023, 07:25:33 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 07:01:32 PM
Tell us you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees will get without saying you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees will get.

It's not an award for game design, and it's not an award based on popularity or sales. This award was created as reaction to the other awards where the winners are based on popularity. The members of the committee (those who who select the nominees and pick the winner) are all game industry professionals with extensive experience and credentials.

For those who care to look, the process for how the nominees and winner are selected is here:

https://www.dianajonesaward.org/nominations-deadlines/


Lou Prosperi

So it IS about virtue signaling and not about the quality, importance or popularity of the nominees.

Thanks for participating.

It's entirely about the quality and importance of the nominees. The members of the committee look for products, people, and concepts that they feel represent excellence in gaming. Does that mean it's subjective? To a point, but that's why the initial set of nominations are voted on by the rest of the committee before the final set of nominees is selected. You assume that the committee members lack integrity and would only submit nominations for purposes of virtue signaling, but you have no evidence of that whatsoever.


Lou Prosperi

You're high.

Codega probably deserves it for her role in bludgeoning Hasbro and WotC. But putting Radiant Citadel on there tells me this isn't about excellence at all. A bland, uninspired, current-day Sigil knockoff gets a nomination? Sure Jan.

All the candidates are 'suspiciously diverse'. But what do I know about big awards?  ;D

I see we've reached the JD Powers level of awards in the gaming community.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 08:01:27 PM

It's entirely about the quality and importance of the nominees. The members of the committee look for products, people, and concepts that they feel represent excellence in gaming.

Uh huh.  Also, war is peace, freedom is slavery, hot is cold, and wet is dry.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 07:01:32 PM
Tell us you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees will get without saying you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees will get.

It's not an award for game design, and it's not an award based on popularity or sales. This award was created as reaction to the other awards where the winners are based on popularity. The members of the committee (those who who select the nominees and pick the winner) are all game industry professionals with extensive experience and credentials.

For those who care to look, the process for how the nominees and winner are selected is here:

https://www.dianajonesaward.org/nominations-deadlines/


Lou Prosperi

Yes, exactly as I said, a tiny group of nepotistic insiders virtue signalling. Its the Culture War disguised as a gaming award.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 08:01:27 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 26, 2023, 07:25:33 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 07:01:32 PM
Tell us you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees will get without saying you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees will get.

It's not an award for game design, and it's not an award based on popularity or sales. This award was created as reaction to the other awards where the winners are based on popularity. The members of the committee (those who who select the nominees and pick the winner) are all game industry professionals with extensive experience and credentials.

For those who care to look, the process for how the nominees and winner are selected is here:

https://www.dianajonesaward.org/nominations-deadlines/


Lou Prosperi

So it IS about virtue signaling and not about the quality, importance or popularity of the nominees.

Thanks for participating.

It's entirely about the quality and importance of the nominees. The members of the committee look for products, people, and concepts that they feel represent excellence in gaming. Does that mean it's subjective? To a point, but that's why the initial set of nominations are voted on by the rest of the committee before the final set of nominees is selected. You assume that the committee members lack integrity and would only submit nominations for purposes of virtue signaling, but you have no evidence of that whatsoever.


Lou Prosperi

In what conceivable way does Radiant Citadel "represent excellence in gaming"? What about it's design, its game elements, anything? There's literally nothing about it that's excellent, EXCEPT if you consider "no white people hired" to be excellence.

Likewise, what's excellent about a leftist blogger turned game "journalist" ripping off stuff happening on twitter and pretending she/her was the first reporter about the misconduct of a megacorporation she usually loves for their fascist wokeness?

I just want to know how much these jokers have to fork out to buy the award.

Quote from: Omega on June 27, 2023, 06:54:24 PM
I just want to know how much these jokers have to fork out to buy the award.

They are all stunning and brave if you ask me.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 08:04:01 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 26, 2023, 07:32:48 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 07:01:32 PM
Tell us you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees

Absolutely... I weep deeply for not having the 'recognition' and I'm totally 'jealous' too!!

Oh, won't someone please give me an award from these whoeverthefucks??  ;D

I'm willing to bet that if you or Pundit were nominated for this award you'd be far less critical.

And if you bothered to look at the names of the committee members you'd realize that being recognized by people with their experience and credentials means you're doing something right.


Lou Prosperi

is that the committee where they've got 50 members but only a tiny number are public, but they are mainly super proud of how "we're lucky to have BIPOC committee members to offer their perspective, as well as women and non-binary professionals"?
That committee?

Complete fucking trash.

Quote from: S'mon on June 27, 2023, 01:50:25 AM
It's interesting looking at the previous winners and how it transitioned to a fully Woke award. From Wikipedia:

2001: Peter Adkison, founder of Wizards of the Coast.
2002: awarded jointly to Ron Edwards and his game Sorcerer.
2003: awarded jointly to Jordan Weisman, a founder of FASA Corporation and WizKids, and to Nobilis second edition.
2004: My Life with Master by Paul Czege.
2005: Ticket to Ride, the board game by Alan Moon, published by Days of Wonder.
2006: Irish Game Convention Charity Auctions, at Gaelcon and Warpcon, for their generosity.
2007: The Great Pendragon Campaign, by Greg Stafford, a supplement for the Pendragon role-playing game (published by White Wolf, Inc.).
2008: awarded jointly to Grey Ranks by Jason Morningstar, and to Wolfgang Baur and his Open Design business model.
2009: Dominion, a card game by Donald X. Vaccarino (published by Rio Grande Games)
2010: Boardgamegeek.com, a website edited by Scott Alden and Derk Solko.[11]
2011: Fiasco, a roleplaying game by Jason Morningstar.[12]
2012: Nordic Larp, a book about the LARP scene in the Nordic countries, edited by Jaakko Stenros and Markus Montola.[13]
2013: Tabletop, a web series where various celebrities join Wil Wheaton in playing board games.[14]
2014: Hillfolk an RPG by Robin Laws.[15]
2015: The Guide to Glorantha by Greg Stafford, Sandy Petersen and Jeff Richard, published by Moon Design Publications. A large two volume sourcebook for Stafford's fantasy world of Glorantha.
2016: Eric Lang, game designer
2017: Gen Con, the game convention where the Diana Jones Award is presented
2018: Actual Play, the "movement within hobby games in which people record and broadcast their game sessions — particularly campaigns of tabletop roleplaying games — over the internet"[16]
2019: Star Crossed, a role-playing game by Alex Roberts, published by Bully Pulpit Games[17]
2020: Black Excellence in Gaming, awarded to more than two dozen black professionals including Omari Akil, Maurice Broaddus, Allie Bustion, Tanya DePass, Brandon Dixon, Julia B. Ellingboe, Jerry Grayson, Shareef Jackson, Cliff "CJ" Jones, Eric Lang, Eloy Lasanta, Rich Lescouflair, Brandon O'Brien, Cody Pondsmith, Mike Pondsmith, Marcus Ross and Cara Michele Ryan, Laura Simpson, Chris Spivey, Bryan Tillman, Allen Turner, Aaron Trammell, Jabari Weathers, Travis Williams, and Camdon Wright.[18][19]
2021: NIBCARD Games, "A strong and original voice in publishing, creating a community of new makers and players across Africa and setting an example to the rest of the world of how to use games to make a difference."[20]
2022: Ajit George, for his activism in advocating for a more representative and diverse hobby games industry.[21]

Looking at the website descriptions, 2001-18 all seem to be about gaming. The 2019 award seems marginal, it looks like it was primarily about promoting a LGBTQI game rather than eg design excellence, but 2020 is a clear inflection point where it becomes explicitly a Woke award. If I were Mike Pondsmith I'd have felt pretty patronised to be given a pat on the head for my 'black excellence in gaming' along with a bunch of relative nobodies!

BTW I had always assumed it was named after fantasy author Diana Jones, the Wikipedia article disabused me:

The Diana Jones trophy was originally created as a keepsake in the UK offices of TSR in the mid 1980s to commemorate the ending of their license to publish The Adventures of Indiana Jones Role-Playing Game.[5] The trophy itself was a lucite pyramid containing the burnt remains of the last unsold copy of the game; all that was legible of the title was "diana Jones".[5] (There is no relation of the award with fantasy author Diana Wynne Jones.) The trophy was "liberated" and eventually ended up with the Diana Jones committee.[6] The destruction of "one of the least-loved and critically savaged games of all time" was seen an appropriate symbol for an award for excellence in gaming.[2][7] The trophy also contains a counter that reads "Nazi™" from the game.[8]

It was complete shit from 2002 onwards, apparently

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 27, 2023, 07:01:47 PM

It was complete shit from 2002 onwards, apparently

Ticket to Ride, while not my thing, is a pretty solid board game that has endured where others have not.
 
I wonder how much BGG had to grease palms to get that award. Ironic as they take bribes from publishers regularly to doctor the rules for blatant advertising.

And Nordic LARP got an award. That is hilarious as far too many nordic LARPers come across as thinly veiled racists at the least, and borderline murder wanna-bes at worst.
 

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 27, 2023, 07:01:47 PM
It was complete shit from 2002 onwards, apparently

Mostly Forge-y stuff and ignoring OSR, but still mostly gaming related until 2019 I think.

Quote from: Omega on June 27, 2023, 09:13:19 PM
And Nordic LARP got an award. That is hilarious as far too many nordic LARPers come across as thinly veiled racists at the least, and borderline murder wanna-bes at worst.

Could you expand a little... as a nordic larper I would like to know, who to avoid.

Also, Rosenstrasse is a good, and well tested, game.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 27, 2023, 07:01:47 PM

It was complete shit from 2002 onwards, apparently

Eh, I'd argue that the Pendragon and Runequest stuff absolutely deserved it.  I have that two-volume Glorantha guide and there's nothing remotely Woke about it.  Looks to me like they went off the rails in 2016, with the advent of the Trumpening that deranged libtards across the country.

Lou's reply lately?


Crickets. All I hear is crickets..

That's because it's EXACTLY what it is: a bunch of virtue signaling nonsense.

You can't defend that.

AND, if you're really that delusional to think people are jealous to not to be included, well I got some news for ya: I'd be EMBARRASED to be up for this non-award. It's the equivalent to getting a participation trophy for 10th place at a swim meet and there were only nine swimmers.

so, go back to your "Committee" a huff each others farts, okay?

Quote from: Exploderwizard on June 26, 2023, 08:00:38 AM

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 25, 2023, 10:18:57 PM
More like the Socialists, Jerks & Whiners Participation Award  ;D

(https://media.tenor.com/VK2SXS1UrkQAAAAC/wokescold-season-wokescold.gif)

LOL! Yes you too can throw off the yolk of colonialism and play Coyote & Crow, where you get to play authentic native American adventures without the influence of white devils. You will get to do exciting things such as enslaving enemy tribes, and burning captives alive. Fun for the whole family. Ages 10 and up.

You forgot the best part: cannibalism.

I really hope there are rules for cannibalism...NOT!

Reading the description of the game, as a historian, I cringed when "Evils of colonialism" popped up right in my face. To the writer of the game: it's just colonialism. Stop projecting your personal views. It's post-modern nonsense. Practically every culture/society has practiced colonialism in one form or another. to imply it was exclusively the "White man's" is ignorant and dishonest.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 26, 2023, 07:01:32 PM
Tell us you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees will get without saying you don't understand the point of this award and that your jealous of the recognition the nominees will get.

It's not an award for game design, and it's not an award based on popularity or sales. This award was created as reaction to the other awards where the winners are based on popularity. The members of the committee (those who who select the nominees and pick the winner) are all game industry professionals with extensive experience and credentials.

For those who care to look, the process for how the nominees and winner are selected is here:

https://www.dianajonesaward.org/nominations-deadlines/


Lou Prosperi

I can't tell if this post is supposed to be coping or gas lighting.

"Industry Professionals" is not a meaningful term, in this context.  There's a number of things being published where it's evident there wasn't any effort to turn out functional play material.  Art layout coordinators and sensitivity readers are "industry professionals" but that doesn't' mean they know anything about what players at tables do, let alone what they want and need.

This link also says nothing meaningful about your selection process.

Quote from: BadApple on June 28, 2023, 09:48:40 AM

This link also says nothing meaningful about your selection process.

Actually the list of nominees says it all. To qualify for consideration:
Non while +5 points
Female +3 points
Gay +4 points
Trans/ Non Binary +5 points
White -5 points
Male -3 points
Straight -4 points
Identify as birth sex -5 points

The candidates with the higest point totals for the virtue signaling awards will be up for consideration.

Edited. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site. I bow to your collective and superior wisdom.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 11:53:32 AM
think this is little more than virtue signaling. I disagree. And since I know and respect several members of the committee (many of whom have infinitely more experience in the game industry than any of you here) and I know they are people of integrity, I feel confident in my assessment.

No one cares what you think here because you have no credibility whatsoever. You're just another dweeb on the internet whose opinion is a mouse fart in a maelstrom. 

However, I'm sticking with my hypotheses given the nature and type of this year's selection for this deeply prestigious award. Occam's razor and all.
But maybe I'm wrong.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

"(There is no relation of the award with fantasy author Diana Wynne Jones.)"

Good. But they're still unintentedly besmirching her name.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 11:53:32 AM

You all (or at least most of you) think this is little more than virtue signaling. I disagree. And since I know and respect several members of the committee (many of whom have infinitely more experience in the game industry than any of you here) and I know they are people of integrity, I feel confident in my assessment.

Lou Prosperi

No one here gives a flying turtle turd about the "industry."  We care about good game play.  Increasingly, RPG publishers put out crap that is unusable at the table.  They are coffee table books with occasional stats. 

I don't "think" it's about virtue signaling, the damn website tells me it is.  There are five finalists and there is nothing in the descriptions that gives me anything to consider on their merits.  It's just "this person is <special group> and works for so-and-so."  Having carefully gone through the material for two of the entrants, I have no faith that there is any more meaning behind the selection process than "not straight white men."

Seriously, Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel is an unusable book for game play purposes.  Roots is so shallow that the board game offers more depth and character development options.  I repeat, the board game gives more RP opportunity than the RPG.  Both of these were products I was interested in and set money aside to purchase.  From a gamer's perspective, the publishers for these books are swindlers.

Edit: clearing up a fat fingered mistake

Quote from: S'mon on June 27, 2023, 01:50:25 AM
2019: Star Crossed, a role-playing game by Alex Roberts, published by Bully Pulpit Games[17]
2020: Black Excellence in Gaming, awarded to more than two dozen black professionals including Omari Akil, Maurice Broaddus, Allie Bustion, Tanya DePass, Brandon Dixon, Julia B. Ellingboe, Jerry Grayson, Shareef Jackson, Cliff "CJ" Jones, Eric Lang, Eloy Lasanta, Rich Lescouflair, Brandon O'Brien, Cody Pondsmith, Mike Pondsmith, Marcus Ross and Cara Michele Ryan, Laura Simpson, Chris Spivey, Bryan Tillman, Allen Turner, Aaron Trammell, Jabari Weathers, Travis Williams, and Camdon Wright.[18][19]
2021: NIBCARD Games, "A strong and original voice in publishing, creating a community of new makers and players across Africa and setting an example to the rest of the world of how to use games to make a difference."[20]
2022: Ajit George, for his activism in advocating for a more representative and diverse hobby games industry.[21][/i]

Looking at the website descriptions, 2001-18 all seem to be about gaming. The 2019 award seems marginal, it looks like it was primarily about promoting a LGBTQI game rather than eg design excellence, but 2020 is a clear inflection point where it becomes explicitly a Woke award. If I were Mike Pondsmith I'd have felt pretty patronised to be given a pat on the head for my 'black excellence in gaming' along with a bunch of relative nobodies!

That seems fair. (Pundit might hate The Forge as Swine, but back in the day, The Forge wasn't particularly political.) For what it's worth, I've played "Star-Crossed" and Roberts' other popular card game, "For the Queen" - they're solid games for those with indie/story-game tastes, but I'm not sure what their competition would be. I had been maintaining the Indie RPG Awards through 2017, but I stopped in 2018.

The 2020 through 2022 awards don't seem to highlight game play at all. To be fair, politics overwhelmed game discussion in a lot of places by 2016 at the latest.

While I'll discuss politics on Pundit's forum, I've generally tried to keep my political activism separate from my gaming. I think for the most part, small press tabletop RPGs only preach to the converted.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 11:53:32 AM(many of whom have infinitely more experience in the game industry than any of you here)

You sure about that? Because you better be sure about that before you say such fucking retarded nonsense.

Quote from: jhkim on June 28, 2023, 01:32:36 PM
That seems fair. (Pundit might hate The Forge as Swine, but back in the day, The Forge wasn't particularly political.)

As you know, I'm always fair.  ;D

I agree re The Forge - I think it was harmful to the RPG industry, but it wasn't political in the modern sense. The strongest Forge advocate I knew IRL BiTD (2003/4) was a far right German ex-bodyguard lady who Blackwater were trying to get to go work for them in Iraq (she showed me some emails). I loaned her a Sven Hassel book, and she complained it was disparaging the Third Reich. But she had no problem with Ron Edwards & The Forge, and indeed posted there a bit.

Edited. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site. I bow to your collective and superior wisdom.

Edited. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site. I bow to your collective and superior wisdom.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 03:51:22 PM
So yeah, I'm pretty sure about it.
Lou Prosperi

Imagine posting this reply and not realizing who else posts on this board...pathetic.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 03:32:57 PM

While I no longer work in the industry, I think my past experience in RPGs should lend me at least some degree of credibility on a site called "The RPGSite".


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

It did.  You lit it all on fire when you started stumping for an obvious political pandering stunt.  Then you lied to us that it wasn't what it was.  (You suck at gaslighting.)

The absolute arrogance you displayed thinking that you are so important here because you were an independent contributor for some games and developer for FASA's shittiest line blows me away.  You aren't anywhere near the highest profile creator on this site.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 28, 2023, 12:02:38 PM
No one cares what you think here because you have no credibility whatsoever. You're just another dweeb on the internet whose opinion is a mouse fart in a maelstrom. 

Daaaaaamn. I'm gonna have to steal this one for later use.

So this is from the FAQ:

Quote
Why is this award different?
The Diana Jones Award is decided on merit, not popularity or commercial success. You may never have heard of some of the finalists, but you can be certain that they are all outstanding in their fields. What is more, because the winner is chosen by a closed, mostly anonymous committee, it is impossible for a manufacturer or publisher to stuff the ballot or interfere with the voting.

How does this even make sense? The committee is mostly anonymous, and that somehow guarantees no shenanigans? Yeah, sure, in opposite land maybe. The votes were counted by an anonymous group of people, so trust us here's the winner. LOL.

Besides the blatant virtue signaling going on, the finalists this year just look, well, boring.

Also, where's the "merit" in being born a certain color or in having certain sexual preferences? Merit? Really?

This just comes across as a massive progressive wank fest, or whatever it is non-binary people do in that regard. Wanx?

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 03:32:57 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 28, 2023, 12:02:38 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 11:53:32 AM
think this is little more than virtue signaling. I disagree. And since I know and respect several members of the committee (many of whom have infinitely more experience in the game industry than any of you here) and I know they are people of integrity, I feel confident in my assessment.

No one cares what you think here because you have no credibility whatsoever. You're just another dweeb on the internet whose opinion is a mouse fart in a maelstrom. 

Well, in terms of RPGs, I think I have more credibility than you give me credit for. I worked in the RPG industry for roughly 15 years in various capacities starting in the late 1980s. My RPG credits include:

Contributing to DC HEROES 2nd Edition (Mayfair Games)
Member of the design team for CHILL 2nd Edition (Mayfair Games)

I did freelance writing/design for:
TORG (West End Games)
Star Wars (West End Games)
AD&D Dark Sun (TSR)
AD&D Greyhawk (TSR)
Shadowrun (FASA)
Star Trek: TNG (Last Unicorn Games)
Hunter: The Reckoning (White Wolf)
Stargate SG-1 (Alderaac Entertainment Group)

In addition to that, I worked in-house at FASA as the Product Line Developer for Earthdawn from December 1992 through June 1998.

Along the way I also wrote articles for a couple of RPG magazines such as Shadis, White Wolf, and others.

I also created a (short-lived) website devoted to serious discussion of RPGs that hosted articles from older print magazines such as articles that originally appeared in Inter*Action/Interactive Fiction, an RPG magazine published in the early-to mid 1990s.

While I no longer work in the industry, I think my past experience in RPGs should lend me at least some degree of credibility on a site called "The RPGSite".


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

Yeah but Lou - could you be participating in Authority Bias? You're suggesting that giving people a mark of achievement (an award) for doing nothing recognizably worth achievement, by tabletop RPG standards, is cool. Did the recipient design an rpg that generated top sales? Did they design an rpg that changed how a large segment of the community plays rpgs? The Diana Jones award "celebrates everything that's the best about gaming", right? It recognizes excellence, correct?

What have the current crop of candidates done that would be recognized as "excellence" or them being "the best" amongst all the members of the tabletop rpg community? Be real, because maybe you failed to recognize the room here, but next to no one on this site is concerned with your so-called "credentials" bearing witness to the current Diana Jones award candidates possessing the requisite rpg expertise to be considered "the best".

Your credibility isn't the issue - it's the award candidates', and how they're selected (which would explain the real purpose of the "award").

(https://spurgeon.files.wordpress.com/2021/12/obama-come-on-what-2.gif)

Quote from: rytrasmi on June 28, 2023, 06:21:36 PM
So this is from the FAQ:

Quote
Why is this award different?
The Diana Jones Award is decided on merit, not popularity or commercial success. You may never have heard of some of the finalists, but you can be certain that they are all outstanding in their fields. What is more, because the winner is chosen by a closed, mostly anonymous committee, it is impossible for a manufacturer or publisher to stuff the ballot or interfere with the voting.

How does this even make sense? The committee is mostly anonymous, and that somehow guarantees no shenanigans? Yeah, sure, in opposite land maybe. The votes were counted by an anonymous group of people, so trust us here's the winner. LOL.

Besides the blatant virtue signaling going on, the finalists this year just look, well, boring.

Also, where's the "merit" in being born a certain color or in having certain sexual preferences? Merit? Really?

This just comes across as a massive progressive wank fest, or whatever it is non-binary people do in that regard. Wanx?

Greetings!

Spot on, Rytrasmi! ;D

The entire award is a circle jerk for the Woke!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 28, 2023, 06:32:20 PM
Yeah but Lou - could you be participating in Authority Bias? You're suggesting that giving people a mark of achievement (an award) for doing nothing recognizably worth achievement, by tabletop RPG standards, is cool. Did the recipient design an rpg that generated top sales? Did they design an rpg that changed how a large segment of the community plays rpgs? The Diana Jones award "celebrates everything that's the best about gaming", right? It recognizes excellence, correct?

You're emphasizing "top sales" and what a "large segment" of gamers play. Even though I don't agree about the Diana Jones' recent award choices, I don't think those criteria are ideal. As I said earlier, if "top sales" and "large segment plays" are the criteria, then the award will always go to D&D or the latest D&D product.

But popularity isn't the same thing as excellence. If something is top in sales, it doesn't need more recognition -- while there are often (IMO) great games that get overlooked by a lot of the public because of limited marketing or other factors.

I've rarely paid much attention to the Diana Jones Award in past years (pre-2019 when I was more involved in that side of things), but sometimes I would give another look at what it recognizes. Like, I'd be curious to learn more about the Root board game and Root RPG.

Quote from: jhkim on June 28, 2023, 07:14:10 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 28, 2023, 06:32:20 PM
Yeah but Lou - could you be participating in Authority Bias? You're suggesting that giving people a mark of achievement (an award) for doing nothing recognizably worth achievement, by tabletop RPG standards, is cool. Did the recipient design an rpg that generated top sales? Did they design an rpg that changed how a large segment of the community plays rpgs? The Diana Jones award "celebrates everything that's the best about gaming", right? It recognizes excellence, correct?

You're emphasizing "top sales" and what a "large segment" of gamers play. Even though I don't agree about the Diana Jones' recent award choices, I don't think those criteria are ideal. As I said earlier, if "top sales" and "large segment plays" are the criteria, then the award will always go to D&D or the latest D&D product.

But popularity isn't the same thing as excellence. If something is top in sales, it doesn't need more recognition -- while there are often (IMO) great games that get overlooked by a lot of the public because of limited marketing or other factors.

I've rarely paid much attention to the Diana Jones Award in past years (pre-2019 when I was more involved in that side of things), but sometimes I would give another look at what it recognizes. Like, I'd be curious to learn more about the Root board game and Root RPG.

My emphasis is "what is the Diana Jones award FOR"? And I want big Lou to answer. Because it obviously 'aint for sales or innovation. Is it, in reality, for persons who've espoused socially progressive, left-wing or liberal views, including feminism, civil rights, gay and transgender rights, identity politics, political correctness and multiculturalism?

If so, Lou, just make it plain, is all I'm asking  ???

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 03:32:57 PM
I did freelance writing/design for:
TORG (West End Games)
Star Wars (West End Games)
AD&D Dark Sun (TSR)
AD&D Greyhawk (TSR)
Shadowrun (FASA)
Star Trek: TNG (Last Unicorn Games)
Hunter: The Reckoning (White Wolf)
Stargate SG-1 (Alderaac Entertainment Group)

So the fuck what? 'Contributed' could mean anything including a few little lines or basically stuff you were told to write. Tell us where YOUR game, or YOUR big idea is. Not a few bits and pieces you've worked on. Pfft.

And even if I did believe you worked with all this material. I say again, so fucking what? And what the fuck has that got to do with us thinking that some silly award is legitimate or not? Your experience and some of the other judge's experience does not in any way validate or invalidate the argument. That hokum is just a complete non-sequitur.

Do you actually know how to construct a logical argument? lol

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 28, 2023, 06:32:20 PM

Your credibility isn't the issue - it's the award candidates', and how they're selected (which would explain the real purpose of the "award").

Exactly...

I've edited/removed all of my posts on this thread. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site.

Sorry to have wasted anyone's time.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 09:06:41 PM
I've edited/removed all of my posts on this thread. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site.

Sorry to have wasted anyone's time.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e6/94/de/e694de2a9effc4a0f68c86c8ece467f8.gif)

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 09:06:41 PM
I've edited/removed all of my posts on this thread. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site.

Sorry to have wasted anyone's time.

Why?  Because we didn't immediately bow to your credentials?  If you'd like to discuss something, then let's discuss it.

The fact that you immediately deleted your posts and bowed out of the thread indicates that you may indeed NOT be a good fit, but probably not for the reasons you think...

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 09:06:41 PM
I've edited/removed all of my posts on this thread. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site.

Sorry to have wasted anyone's time.

Yes, lack of immediate agreement and harmony must be difficult for you, as you probably come from a "good vibes only" echo chamber where everyone gets along (or at least pretends to).

So you react with passive aggression.

Too bad. You could have girded your loins and stuck around.

I was really hoping he'd come back with how it was really celebrating "excellence" and not diversity.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 09:06:41 PM
I've edited/removed all of my posts on this thread. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site.

Sorry to have wasted anyone's time.

You know deep down, within the depths of you soul (which is about as shallow as a kiddie pool), that the arguments presented to you are the truth. There's no way you can truthfully acknowledge that this non-award is 100% pure virtue signaling, with the candidates primary qualifications are race, gender identification, and if they lean left in their politics.

Enjoy handing out your Participation Trophy for Just Showing Up.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 28, 2023, 09:06:41 PM
I've edited/removed all of my posts on this thread. I'm clearly not a good fit for discussions on this site.

Sorry to have wasted anyone's time.

So, does this mean you acknowledge Pundit is correct in his assessment that the award is pure wankery? Because that's all this means. If you cannot support your position with an actual argument, the position is untenable. Feel free to go back to RPG.net, I am sure they enjoy the pud pulling.

Cowards die in shame, Lou.

Real nice, guys! You scared him off right when he was going to spill  >:(

He did have some nice credentials - except for Treasures of Greyhawk. Total garbage.

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 29, 2023, 01:15:52 PM
Real nice, guys! You scared him off right when he was going to spill  >:(

He did have some nice credentials - except for Treasures of Greyhawk. Total garbage.

Who knows what he did though? He could have just written about player safety or some other trite shit. For me, your 'credentials' are not with shit unless you've actually come up with an original concept or some innovative mechanics. Or you really were a pivotal figure in a particular game's development (including art, etc.).

Other than that, meh...

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2023, 02:32:07 PMWho knows what he did though?

Does it matter? If Gary Gygax himself was resurrected and created this award, it'd still be worthless virtue signaling. This is nothing more than some new clothing for the emperor, and if you plebs are too stupid to understand why it's the best thing ever, pish posh!

Quote from: Brad on June 29, 2023, 02:35:58 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2023, 02:32:07 PMWho knows what he did though?

Does it matter? If Gary Gygax himself was resurrected and created this award, it'd still be worthless virtue signaling. This is nothing more than some new clothing for the emperor, and if you plebs are too stupid to understand why it's the best thing ever, pish posh!

That's what I was saying earlier... Someone's credentials don't mean squat if the 'award' is shall we say deliberately skewed.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2023, 02:32:07 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 29, 2023, 01:15:52 PM
Real nice, guys! You scared him off right when he was going to spill  >:(

He did have some nice credentials - except for Treasures of Greyhawk. Total garbage.

Who knows what he did though? He could have just written about player safety or some other trite shit. For me, your 'credentials' are not with shit unless you've actually come up with an original concept or some innovative mechanics. Or you really were a pivotal figure in a particular game's development (including art, etc.).

Other than that, meh...

I'm not here to talk about the award. I'm clearly in the minority here, and I can understand why many of you have the views you have.

I may not agree with you, but that doesn't really matter. I am also of the belief that we can disagree agreeably. I'll even go so far as to apologize for my passive-aggressive approach to that part of the discussion.

That said, I do an have an issue with you casting doubt on my credentials as a RPG writer and designer, so I want to provide a bit more detail so you'll have a better idea of what I did for each of these.

* DC HEROES 2nd Edition: I play tested the game, and helped design (alongside Ray Winninger and Jack Barker) the stats for the characters in the "Background Roster Book" in the 2nd edition boxed set.

* CHILL 2nd Edition: I was the main person behind the changes to S.A.V.E. in the 2nd edition core rulebook. I also created the characters of RAX and Robert Alexander Davidson, the two narrators of the rulebook (though Ray Winninger wrote their actual words)

*TORG: I wrote short adventures called "Breaking New Ground" and "Full Moon Draw" in an adventure collection called "Full Moon Draw and Other Tales, a short adventure called "Bad Business" in an adventure collection book called "Cylent Scream and Other Tales", and wrote a supplement called "The Storm Knight's Guide to the Possibility Wars"

*Star Wars: I wrote a supplement called "Wanted by Cracken"

*AD&D Dark Sun: I designed a number of creatures in the Dark Sun Monstrous

*AD&D Greyhawk: I wrote two short adventures in Treasures of Greyhawk

*Shadowrun: I wrote an adventure called "A Killing Glare"

*Star Trek: TNG: I wrote about the planets Tellar and Andoria in "Planets of the Galaxy" and wrote the "Starbase 315" chapter of the TNG Player's Guid

*Hunter: The Reckoning: I wrote the chapter about Location-based Chronicles in the "Storyteller's Handbook

*Stargate SG-1: I wrote chapters in the Season One and Season Two sourcebooks.

From December 1992 through June 1998 I was the Product Line Developer for Earthdawn at FASA. During that time I lead the develop of the entire product line, designed rules systems, wrote supplements, and was (to use your words) "a pivotal figure in a particular game's development".

To be clear, I'm NOT saying that these credentials make my opinion any more valid than any of yours. I'm ONLY listing the above to provide more details about my work because you seem intent on questioning my credibility.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 29, 2023, 04:39:05 PM
That said, I do an have an issue with you casting doubt on my credentials as a RPG writer and designer, so I want to provide a bit more detail so you'll have a better idea of what I did for each of these.

They know you're a games designer. But there are a bunch of other veteran games designers here with similar resumes.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 29, 2023, 04:39:05 PM
I'm not here to talk about the award. I'm clearly in the minority here, and I can understand why many of you have the views you have.

I may not agree with you, but that doesn't really matter. I am also of the belief that we can disagree agreeably. I'll even go so far as to apologize for my passive-aggressive approach to that part of the discussion.

That said, I do an have an issue with you casting doubt on my credentials as a RPG writer and designer, so I want to provide a bit more detail so you'll have a better idea of what I did for each of these.

Kudos to you for coming back. Though I understand that you might feel ganged up on, it's not coordinated or malicious. It's just due to the fact that this place allows open discussion of pretty much anything, so it tends to be quite lively. Contrast that with places that control discussions so that most disagreement gets filtered out.

Your credentials are very nice but they don't really matter to me for discussion purposes. The merits of the award are more interesting, but you don't want to discuss that, which is your right.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 29, 2023, 04:39:05 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2023, 02:32:07 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 29, 2023, 01:15:52 PM
Real nice, guys! You scared him off right when he was going to spill  >:(

He did have some nice credentials - except for Treasures of Greyhawk. Total garbage.

Who knows what he did though? He could have just written about player safety or some other trite shit. For me, your 'credentials' are not with shit unless you've actually come up with an original concept or some innovative mechanics. Or you really were a pivotal figure in a particular game's development (including art, etc.).

Other than that, meh...

I'm not here to talk about the award. I'm clearly in the minority here, and I can understand why many of you have the views you have.

I may not agree with you, but that doesn't really matter. I am also of the belief that we can disagree agreeably. I'll even go so far as to apologize for my passive-aggressive approach to that part of the discussion.

That said, I do an have an issue with you casting doubt on my credentials as a RPG writer and designer, so I want to provide a bit more detail so you'll have a better idea of what I did for each of these.

* DC HEROES 2nd Edition: I play tested the game, and helped design (alongside Ray Winninger and Jack Barker) the stats for the characters in the "Background Roster Book" in the 2nd edition boxed set.

* CHILL 2nd Edition: I was the main person behind the changes to S.A.V.E. in the 2nd edition core rulebook. I also created the characters of RAX and Robert Alexander Davidson, the two narrators of the rulebook (though Ray Winninger wrote their actual words)

*TORG: I wrote short adventures called "Breaking New Ground" and "Full Moon Draw" in an adventure collection called "Full Moon Draw and Other Tales, a short adventure called "Bad Business" in an adventure collection book called "Cylent Scream and Other Tales", and wrote a supplement called "The Storm Knight's Guide to the Possibility Wars"

*Star Wars: I wrote a supplement called "Wanted by Cracken"

*AD&D Dark Sun: I designed a number of creatures in the Dark Sun Monstrous

*AD&D Greyhawk: I wrote two short adventures in Treasures of Greyhawk

*Shadowrun: I wrote an adventure called "A Killing Glare"

*Star Trek: TNG: I wrote about the planets Tellar and Andoria in "Planets of the Galaxy" and wrote the "Starbase 315" chapter of the TNG Player's Guid

*Hunter: The Reckoning: I wrote the chapter about Location-based Chronicles in the "Storyteller's Handbook

*Stargate SG-1: I wrote chapters in the Season One and Season Two sourcebooks.

From December 1992 through June 1998 I was the Product Line Developer for Earthdawn at FASA. During that time I lead the develop of the entire product line, designed rules systems, wrote supplements, and was (to use your words) "a pivotal figure in a particular game's development".

To be clear, I'm NOT saying that these credentials make my opinion any more valid than any of yours. I'm ONLY listing the above to provide more details about my work because you seem intent on questioning my credibility.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

Lou,

Welcome back!

I agree with most of the other posters on the board on this topic (the DJ award is Woke garbage) but certainly there's room for rationale discourse here at the Site. That's quite different than other RPG forums, where rational discourse is considered "racism."

Wanted by Cracken: I have that one in my collection. Good work.

Star Trek Planets of the Galaxy: The Last Unicorn game? Used to own it. I can't recall your work on Tellar or Andoria. I do recall there was one planet where Sirna Kolrami came from. The obnoxious Strategema master who challenged Data. His planet was filled with obnoxious, anti-social people who only communicated in argumentative online forums. (I see what you did there, Last Unicorn.)

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 29, 2023, 04:39:05 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2023, 02:32:07 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 29, 2023, 01:15:52 PM
Real nice, guys! You scared him off right when he was going to spill  >:(

He did have some nice credentials - except for Treasures of Greyhawk. Total garbage.

Who knows what he did though? He could have just written about player safety or some other trite shit. For me, your 'credentials' are not with shit unless you've actually come up with an original concept or some innovative mechanics. Or you really were a pivotal figure in a particular game's development (including art, etc.).

Other than that, meh...

I'm not here to talk about the award. I'm clearly in the minority here, and I can understand why many of you have the views you have.

I may not agree with you, but that doesn't really matter. I am also of the belief that we can disagree agreeably. I'll even go so far as to apologize for my passive-aggressive approach to that part of the discussion.

That said, I do an have an issue with you casting doubt on my credentials as a RPG writer and designer, so I want to provide a bit more detail so you'll have a better idea of what I did for each of these.

* DC HEROES 2nd Edition: I play tested the game, and helped design (alongside Ray Winninger and Jack Barker) the stats for the characters in the "Background Roster Book" in the 2nd edition boxed set.

* CHILL 2nd Edition: I was the main person behind the changes to S.A.V.E. in the 2nd edition core rulebook. I also created the characters of RAX and Robert Alexander Davidson, the two narrators of the rulebook (though Ray Winninger wrote their actual words)

*TORG: I wrote short adventures called "Breaking New Ground" and "Full Moon Draw" in an adventure collection called "Full Moon Draw and Other Tales, a short adventure called "Bad Business" in an adventure collection book called "Cylent Scream and Other Tales", and wrote a supplement called "The Storm Knight's Guide to the Possibility Wars"

*Star Wars: I wrote a supplement called "Wanted by Cracken"

*AD&D Dark Sun: I designed a number of creatures in the Dark Sun Monstrous

*AD&D Greyhawk: I wrote two short adventures in Treasures of Greyhawk

*Shadowrun: I wrote an adventure called "A Killing Glare"

*Star Trek: TNG: I wrote about the planets Tellar and Andoria in "Planets of the Galaxy" and wrote the "Starbase 315" chapter of the TNG Player's Guid

*Hunter: The Reckoning: I wrote the chapter about Location-based Chronicles in the "Storyteller's Handbook

*Stargate SG-1: I wrote chapters in the Season One and Season Two sourcebooks.

From December 1992 through June 1998 I was the Product Line Developer for Earthdawn at FASA. During that time I lead the develop of the entire product line, designed rules systems, wrote supplements, and was (to use your words) "a pivotal figure in a particular game's development".

To be clear, I'm NOT saying that these credentials make my opinion any more valid than any of yours. I'm ONLY listing the above to provide more details about my work because you seem intent on questioning my credibility.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

I'm not impressed... You play-tested some shit, and wrote a few creatures and a scenario or two. If you came up with the idea/concept of Earhdawn then I'm impressed. If you did the mechanics I'm not, as I always hated them (that, and Shadowrun).

But you are clearly a fucking dipshit. Because we are all talking about some shitty award and whether it's legitimate or not. But you came on here, and start bleating about how great the candidates are and how it's not about diversitaaay at all. We called you on your crap and then you start saying that everyone here has fuck all experience in RPG land and just how super dooper your credentials are.

As was pointed out. No one gives a shit about your credentials. You're the one who started the ad hominem attacks in the first place. You big baby.

Greetings!

Lou Prosperi, how did you like working on Treasures of Greyhawk? What would you have done differently, if anything? If you could do more for that supplement, what would you have done? Do you think that Greyhawk development could have been more extensive and robust?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2023, 06:37:22 PM
As was pointed out. No one gives a shit about your credentials. You're the one who started the ad hominem attacks in the first place. You big baby.

No on cares in the sense that his credentials mean fuckall as to the legitimacy and/or notability of this "award". I, for one, would like more people with industry experience to post here because you can get some good information about, I dunno, the INDUSTRY. But you gotta have a thick skin...and you'd think someone who wrote stuff for publication, much less RPG stuff, would be able to put up with the grumbling rabble. Alas...

So yeah, he started off as a total ass, but if he actually makes a reasonable argument I am totally willing to listen.

Quote from: Brad on June 29, 2023, 09:59:45 PM
So yeah, he started off as a total ass, but if he actually makes a reasonable argument I am totally willing to listen.

Absolutely. I'd be willing to listen to any reasonable argument as well. But when you come in guns blazing you're opening yourself up for people giving it back to you from the off. Hostility breeds hostility...

And it would also be cool to have more industry pros talk here as well.

Quote from: SHARK on June 29, 2023, 06:42:08 PM
Greetings!

Lou Prosperi, how did you like working on Treasures of Greyhawk? What would you have done differently, if anything? If you could do more for that supplement, what would you have done? Do you think that Greyhawk development could have been more extensive and robust?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Hello!

I worked on that a LONG time ago (probably in 1991, since it was released in June 1992 and back then TSR worked very far in advance), but there are a couple of things I remember. I wasn't especially familiar with Greyhawk at the time (I was far more familiar with the Forgotten Realms), but I was a relatively new writer for TSR (I had previously contributed to the Dark Sun Monstrous Compendium). One thing in particular I wanted to do was to insert some references and connections to other Greyhawk titles, such as VECNA LIVES (which had been published in 1990). I don't recall if that ended up happening. As I recall I wrote 3 adventures, but they only included 2 of them for reasons I no longer remember. I believe they turned the 3rd adventure over to either the RPGA or to Dungeon magazine. I honestly forget where it ended up.

As for my thoughts on Greyhawk development, by 1992 Greyhawk had largely been relegated to the lower end of their product line. In the 1992 catalog, it appears last of the 7 campaign settings and only 4 products were released that year. By then the focus was more on Dark Sun, the Forgotten Realms, Al-Qadim, and Ravenloft. Even Spelljammer had more releases than Greyhawk in 1992, and Dragonlance has the same number of releases (4). I think the thought was that Greyhawk had had its time in the spotlight and it was time for new settings.  Whether that was the correct choice is hard to tell, but history tells us that this was the period when TSR was starting to produce more and more non-profitable products, so clearly some of their decision making was suspect.

You can find the 1992 TSR catalog here:

https://archive.org/details/tsr-catalog-1992/page/n1/mode/2up

Thanks for helping me take a trip down memory lane!


Lou Prosperi

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 29, 2023, 04:39:05 PM


I'm not here to talk about the award. I'm clearly in the minority here, and I can understand why many of you have the views you have.

I may not agree with you, but that doesn't really matter. I am also of the belief that we can disagree agreeably. I'll even go so far as to apologize for my passive-aggressive approach to that part of the discussion.

That said, I do an have an issue with you casting doubt on my credentials as a RPG writer and designer, so I want to provide a bit more detail so you'll have a better idea of what I did for each of these.

* DC HEROES 2nd Edition: I play tested the game, and helped design (alongside Ray Winninger and Jack Barker) the stats for the characters in the "Background Roster Book" in the 2nd edition boxed set.

* CHILL 2nd Edition: I was the main person behind the changes to S.A.V.E. in the 2nd edition core rulebook. I also created the characters of RAX and Robert Alexander Davidson, the two narrators of the rulebook (though Ray Winninger wrote their actual words)

*TORG: I wrote short adventures called "Breaking New Ground" and "Full Moon Draw" in an adventure collection called "Full Moon Draw and Other Tales, a short adventure called "Bad Business" in an adventure collection book called "Cylent Scream and Other Tales", and wrote a supplement called "The Storm Knight's Guide to the Possibility Wars"

*Star Wars: I wrote a supplement called "Wanted by Cracken"

*AD&D Dark Sun: I designed a number of creatures in the Dark Sun Monstrous

*AD&D Greyhawk: I wrote two short adventures in Treasures of Greyhawk

*Shadowrun: I wrote an adventure called "A Killing Glare"

*Star Trek: TNG: I wrote about the planets Tellar and Andoria in "Planets of the Galaxy" and wrote the "Starbase 315" chapter of the TNG Player's Guid

*Hunter: The Reckoning: I wrote the chapter about Location-based Chronicles in the "Storyteller's Handbook

*Stargate SG-1: I wrote chapters in the Season One and Season Two sourcebooks.

From December 1992 through June 1998 I was the Product Line Developer for Earthdawn at FASA. During that time I lead the develop of the entire product line, designed rules systems, wrote supplements, and was (to use your words) "a pivotal figure in a particular game's development".

To be clear, I'm NOT saying that these credentials make my opinion any more valid than any of yours. I'm ONLY listing the above to provide more details about my work because you seem intent on questioning my credibility.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

Your credentials are not in doubt. They are documented fact. Opinions on the quality of those credentials may vary but that is neither here nor there. The focus of this thread is indeed the award itself which purports itself to be for excellence in gaming which is all well and good for an award. One can't help but notice that the front and center things about all those considered for the award are their skin color, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and gender identity. Could the award committee explain why in hell any of that has fuck all to with excellence in gaming and why it need be mentioned at all? Shouldn't the quality of the product itself be the sole determining factor of excellence? If a product is great and is well received by the gaming community does it matter if it was written by an Indian lesbian, or a white straight nerdy man? Apparently for this award it matters MORE than the quality of the product itself which is why this "award" is little more than a joke and there is no good reason for a credentialed designer to attach their name to it other than bullshit virtue signaling.

Nothing has opened my eyes to the invalidity of almost all awards (and I'm only saying almost because I can't think of any that actually matter to me any longer - but I'm sure there's one out there... somewhere)... than the last decade or so of cultural decay.

If Gygax himself introduced 1e D&D to the world today - he'd have been divebombed by the usual losers. Naw, I'm gonna go by the general consensus of people that can actually make a good point, however acerbic.

Why would I want an award from a bunch of degenerate retards who probably don't even play my game? /shrug. I could care less about this award, and *any* game nominated for it.

Hell if a game I wrote was nominated and for it and won - I wouldn't even show up to collect it.

Quote from: tenbones on June 30, 2023, 10:20:28 PM
Nothing has opened my eyes to the invalidity of almost all awards (and I'm only saying almost because I can't think of any that actually matter to me any longer - but I'm sure there's one out there... somewhere)... than the last decade or so of cultural decay.

If Gygax himself introduced 1e D&D to the world today - he'd have been divebombed by the usual losers. Naw, I'm gonna go by the general consensus of people that can actually make a good point, however acerbic.

Why would I want an award from a bunch of degenerate retards who probably don't even play my game? /shrug. I could care less about this award, and *any* game nominated for it.

Hell if a game I wrote was nominated and for it and won - I wouldn't even show up to collect it.

You're supposed to give a list of all your game writing credits here, so we know to defer to your opinion.  ;D

Heh, I don't need anyone's deference. I'll happily debate my opinions (which when it comes to gaming - I'm *always* open to discuss) and defend my positions. My published writing credits? Well they're modest, I'd like to think I have some significant stuff under my belt. But the thing is... excellence in gaming comes much more from running/playing games than just designing them (but obviously that helps).

And sure, I've been doing this a long time and I definitely have my opinions (Like "Outside of financial interests of the obvious parties - why d20/OSR?"). The problem of course is no one trusts the opinions of these assholes that hand out these awards. The list speaks for itself. These are dogshit games. Opinion? Obviously. But I'm not wrong. And we all know it. DEFER TO MEEEEEEE!!!!!

Heeeey Big Lou's back! And why not: TheRpgSite is the coolest rpg forum in the multiverse!

Lou, we know you know the Diana Jones award is trash. You're an intelligent, compassionate, driven man who recognizes smoke when he sees it. We get it. You should hang around with us more often cuz I know you have stories!

What was your favorite project you did or didn't complete? Have you ever had to compromise your creative vision because a company wanted you to change something? If you had to fight any one RPG designer, who are you sure you could chokeslam?

Quote from: DKChannelBoredom on June 28, 2023, 07:00:14 AM

Quote from: Omega on June 27, 2023, 09:13:19 PM
And Nordic LARP got an award. That is hilarious as far too many nordic LARPers come across as thinly veiled racists at the least, and borderline murder wanna-bes at worst.

Could you expand a little... as a nordic larper I would like to know, who to avoid.

Also, Rosenstrasse is a good, and well tested, game.

They used to be all over the LARP forums and Youtube badmouthing "American" LARPing. Oddly they popped up less on RPG.net.
 
Usually things like pushing the violence and now not using real weapons was bad and on and on ad nausium. The "Thoku Manifesto" was particularly unpleasant with things like advocating that if someone were injured that you should stay in character. Or that handicapped people shouldnt be allowed to play. No glasses even. And other trash. I stopped paying attention after my roommate died as we'd planned to hit one up locally but never got a chance.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2023, 02:32:07 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on June 29, 2023, 01:15:52 PM
Real nice, guys! You scared him off right when he was going to spill  >:(

He did have some nice credentials - except for Treasures of Greyhawk. Total garbage.

Who knows what he did though? He could have just written about player safety or some other trite shit. For me, your 'credentials' are not with shit unless you've actually come up with an original concept or some innovative mechanics. Or you really were a pivotal figure in a particular game's development (including art, etc.).

Other than that, meh...

Nah.
Freelancer for mostly older stuff, late 80s, 90s from the look.
Myself, I think Tenbones and a few others here have done freelancing for various works. That can range everywhere from a whole module or story, to cleanup, magazine articles and so on, or even just little snippets that got added to a product because someone liked it.

And he commented after I posted.

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 29, 2023, 04:39:05 PM
*TORG: I wrote short adventures called "Breaking New Ground" and "Full Moon Draw" in an adventure collection called "Full Moon Draw and Other Tales, a short adventure called "Bad Business" in an adventure collection book called "Cylent Scream and Other Tales", and wrote a supplement called "The Storm Knight's Guide to the Possibility Wars"

Full Moon Draw was not bad really for a TORG book and the Storm Knights Guide I think still have.

Wasn't Ten Bones involved with Savage Lands?

Now that is a classic RPG!

Quote from: LouProsperi on June 29, 2023, 04:39:05 PM

From December 1992 through June 1998 I was the Product Line Developer for Earthdawn at FASA. During that time I lead the develop of the entire product line, designed rules systems, wrote supplements, and was (to use your words) "a pivotal figure in a particular game's development".

LOU!

Earthdawn!

One of my favorite games and settings!  I remember asking you questions about various rules all those years ago!  Hell, I still have the printouts of your replies in my old Earthdawn books :) 

Evolving magic items and how elemental magic can be woven into things is still something I carry forward into all my RPG games to this day!


Anyways back you guys bickering-dickering over things :p

Hello,

Quote from: Brad on June 29, 2023, 09:59:45 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2023, 06:37:22 PM
As was pointed out. No one gives a shit about your credentials. You're the one who started the ad hominem attacks in the first place. You big baby.

No on cares in the sense that his credentials mean fuckall as to the legitimacy and/or notability of this "award". I, for one, would like more people with industry experience to post here because you can get some good information about, I dunno, the INDUSTRY. But you gotta have a thick skin...and you'd think someone who wrote stuff for publication, much less RPG stuff, would be able to put up with the grumbling rabble. Alas...

So yeah, he started off as a total ass, but if he actually makes a reasonable argument I am totally willing to listen.

I think I have thick skin when it comes to criticisms about my work. It's considerably less thick when I'm accused of lying about the work I've done.

That said, you are correct, I started off in this thread as an ass.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on June 29, 2023, 10:04:53 PM

Quote from: Brad on June 29, 2023, 09:59:45 PM
So yeah, he started off as a total ass, but if he actually makes a reasonable argument I am totally willing to listen.

Absolutely. I'd be willing to listen to any reasonable argument as well. But when you come in guns blazing you're opening yourself up for people giving it back to you from the off. Hostility breeds hostility...

And it would also be cool to have more industry pros talk here as well.

Yes, my aggressive stance was a mistake, and the response I got was deserved.

As for a reasonable argument...

My argument that the Diana Jones award is more than mere virtue signaling boils down to one basic and personal thing: I value and trust the opinions of the people on the committee more than those who are attacking it. When people who I know and respect, and who have worked in the gaming industry for many, many years say "Hey, this thing is excellent!", I take notice. I don't always agree with their assessment, but I still stop and listen to what they say.

Then when someone like Pundit, a narcissistic, self-described "shitlord" who seems to believe that he and he alone understands roleplaying games comes out and attacks the credibility of those same people who I know and respect, is it a surprise that I would side with the committee members?


Do I wish the descriptions of the nominees were more focused on their work than their gender identity or race or other non-game related stuff? Absolutely. But I also believe that there must be more to those nominees than just their gender identity and race and other non-game related stuff to make them worthy of being nominated for the award (with the notable exception of Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, which was intended as a work designed by people of color, so we can't really dismiss the race part on that one).

Consider the following rewrite of one of the nominee descriptions:

QuoteLINDA CODEGA
A journalist focusing on tabletop gaming
Published on io9 and Gizmodo

Linda Codega is a journalist and critic focused on tabletop gaming, as well as a speculative fiction writer and tabletop game designer. Their investigative reporting for io9 of Wizards of the Coast's proposed deauthorization of the Open Gaming License led to widespread reexamination of open gaming. As a result, Wizards released the core rules of Dungeons & Dragons under an irrevocable Creative Commons license and opened a new dialog about the future of the game with fans and creators.

All I did was take out 2 words related to gender identity. The rest of the description still makes a strong case for recognizing Linda's work. And while Pundit may claim otherwise, if you were paying attention during the bruh-ha-ha around the OGL, you saw several pieces by Codega that helped spread the word and explain what WotC was planning (and how their plans changed when they realized just how deeply they'd stepped into it). She contributed in a material way to WotC's change of direction. Isn't that excellent and worthy of acknowledgement?

So that's my argument. I think it's reasonable. You might disagree. That's okay. I also understand that my argument may not change any one's mind here, and that's okay too.


Take Care,

Lou Prosperi

Personally I do think that Linda Codega's holding WoTC's feet to the fire on the OGL is a justification for the award nomination. She acted as a lightning rod for the whole community. Her claiming to be 'genderqueer' etc adds nothing to that. She could have been an (actual) straight white male and been equally worthy. To my more Based colleagues here, I'd say that Codega being fucked in the head re 'gender identity' shouldn't disqualify her as a journalist. Yes she collated stuff other people had already said, but as a relatively mainstream journalist she took it to another level.

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 03, 2023, 12:09:36 PM
My argument that the Diana Jones award is more than mere virtue signaling boils down to one basic and personal thing: I value and trust the opinions of the people on the committee more than those who are attacking it. When people who I know and respect, and who have worked in the gaming industry for many, many years say "Hey, this thing is excellent!", I take notice. I don't always agree with their assessment, but I still stop and listen to what they say.

Then when someone like Pundit, a narcissistic, self-described "shitlord" who seems to believe that he and he alone understands roleplaying games comes out and attacks the credibility of those same people who I know and respect, is it a surprise that I would side with the committee members?

Do I wish the descriptions of the nominees were more focused on their work than their gender identity or race or other non-game related stuff? Absolutely. But I also believe that there must be more to those nominees than just their gender identity and race and other non-game related stuff to make them worthy of being nominated for the award (with the notable exception of Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, which was intended as a work designed by people of color, so we can't really dismiss the race part on that one).

You trust the committee's members. Great. Given that 2/3rds of them are anonymous, you are in a privileged position. To everyone else it sounds like "bro just trust me."

You believe that the award is not entirely based on gender/race identity? This translates to: There might be some gaming merit to the award. Is this your position?

In other words, as a gamer with limited time and money, why should I pay attention to this award? How can I trust the committee when they are obviously influenced by identity? I want to play good games and don't give a shit about the identity of the creator.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 03, 2023, 01:10:28 PM

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 03, 2023, 12:09:36 PM
My argument that the Diana Jones award is more than mere virtue signaling boils down to one basic and personal thing: I value and trust the opinions of the people on the committee more than those who are attacking it. When people who I know and respect, and who have worked in the gaming industry for many, many years say "Hey, this thing is excellent!", I take notice. I don't always agree with their assessment, but I still stop and listen to what they say.

Then when someone like Pundit, a narcissistic, self-described "shitlord" who seems to believe that he and he alone understands roleplaying games comes out and attacks the credibility of those same people who I know and respect, is it a surprise that I would side with the committee members?

Do I wish the descriptions of the nominees were more focused on their work than their gender identity or race or other non-game related stuff? Absolutely. But I also believe that there must be more to those nominees than just their gender identity and race and other non-game related stuff to make them worthy of being nominated for the award (with the notable exception of Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, which was intended as a work designed by people of color, so we can't really dismiss the race part on that one).

You trust the committee's members. Great. Given that 2/3rds of them are anonymous, you are in a privileged position. To everyone else it sounds like "bro just trust me."

To clarify, I only know the committee members whose names are on the public list.

Quote
You believe that the award is not entirely based on gender/race identity? This translates to: There might be some gaming merit to the award. Is this your position?

I believe that the award is based on gaming merit. I'd like to think that gender/race identity have little to no role in how the committee chooses nominees, but in fairness I have to confess I don't know that for certain, and would be quite disappointed to learn otherwise. For example, I would be very disappointed if I asked Ken Hite or Matt Forbeck (both committee members) why they feel Coyote and Crow deserves to be nominated and their answer was "Because the designer is a Native American."

Quote
In other words, as a gamer with limited time and money, why should I pay attention to this award? How can I trust the committee when they are obviously influenced by identity? I want to play good games and don't give a shit about the identity of the creator.

At the crux of my position is the fact that I don't agree that the committee is "obviously influenced by identity", so I'm probably not the right person to answer that question. I don't know. Maybe you shouldn't pay attention to it.


Take Care,

Lou

Monday, July 3, 2023

Greetings!

You are welcome, Lou Prosperi! I am glad to provide you with such nostalgia and happiness. I have always liked the Greyhawk world. ;D

Thinking about your opening, well, yes, it takes some humility, fortitude, and integrity to admit when you are wrong, and apologize. Outstanding, Lou! ;D It is good to see that you have returned, and in better spirits! Welcome back!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The Codega nomination is quite obviously justified.  Can anyone seriously suggest another piece of RPG journalism that had anywhere near its impact?  Pundit is just salty because the edgelord ecosphere was reduced to playing catch-up on the issue.  Also, anyone who has EVER had a direct financial relationship with WotC is not a neutral source on 5e.  If you wouldn't take the word of an ex employee in another industry at face value, don't do it here.

Coyote & Crow? Dunno, haven't read it.  Not interested in it from what I know.  A KS campaign of that size probably is significant in its own right though.

Radiant Citadel.  I'm assuming it's shit because it's 5e and everything for 5e sucks  Perhaps that's unfair.

Rosenstrasse?  Could be interesting; I like historical games.  Not at that price though, especially for a one shot. (Perhaps unfairly, the pricing structure makes me suspect it's largely aimed at academic, not a general RPG audience.

So that's three games I don't know enough about to really have an opinion not based entirely on my own instinctual bias.

And then we come to Cole Wehrle where the whole thing just descends into farce.

Wehrle is a big name.  But he's a board game designer, not a RPG designer like Pundit seems to think.

The main argument against his inclusion seems to be that Pundit hasn't heard of him, which seems rather thin.

The guy designed Root.  You don't have to like the game, but if you know anything at all about boardgames I have trouble believing you haven't heard of it.

Pax Pamir is more of a niche taste (it's a heavy Euro) but again, it's successful.  Enough to warrant a second edition.

John Company seems to be what he's been nominated before but again apparently it's too obscure because Pundit's not heard of it.  It's a heavy negotiation game and it's excellent, although admittedly I only own first edition.  Try it for yourself on Tabletop Simulator if you want to see how it plays.  It's an excellent historical game and a lot of fun.  (It also, like all of his games, has nothing that could be described as identity based) at all.

Honestly, the only way I think that anyone could seriously question Wehrle's inclusion is either a) they don't think boardgames should be eligible or b) they know absolutely nothing about modern boardgames.

Sadly, sales figures don't seem to be available, or I would absolutely take the bet that Wehrle has made more money from game design than Pundit.  Which I'm absolutely sure is the case, but can't prove without that evidence.

Quote from: SHARK on July 03, 2023, 02:30:19 PM
well, yes, it takes some humility, fortitude, and integrity to admit when you are wrong, and apologize.

Exactly... So fair play to, Lou for that.

I can't in all good conscience agree with his position, given the skewing of the award towards identity and diversity politics. It goes beyond the realm of probability.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 03, 2023, 02:43:33 PM

Quote from: SHARK on July 03, 2023, 02:30:19 PM
well, yes, it takes some humility, fortitude, and integrity to admit when you are wrong, and apologize.

Exactly... So fair play to, Lou for that.

I can't in all good conscience agree with his position, given the skewing of the award towards identity and diversity politics. It goes beyond the realm of probability.

And I can appreciate your position, can understand where you're coming from, and have to concede that unfortunately the messaging around the nominees in some cases supports your POV.

Of course something to keep in mind is that merit and identity/diversity politics are not mutually exclusive. For example, the addition of pronouns to the Call of Cthulhu character sheet doesn't change the fact that it's an excellent game.


Take Care,

Lou

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 03, 2023, 03:05:39 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 03, 2023, 02:43:33 PM

Quote from: SHARK on July 03, 2023, 02:30:19 PM
well, yes, it takes some humility, fortitude, and integrity to admit when you are wrong, and apologize.

Exactly... So fair play to, Lou for that.

I can't in all good conscience agree with his position, given the skewing of the award towards identity and diversity politics. It goes beyond the realm of probability.

And I can appreciate your position, can understand where you're coming from, and have to concede that unfortunately the messaging around the nominees in some cases supports your POV.

Of course something to keep in mind is that merit and identity/diversity politics are not mutually exclusive. For example, the addition of pronouns to the Call of Cthulhu character sheet doesn't change the fact that it's an excellent game.


Take Care,

Lou

I agree... If a game is good then a game is good, it's that simple  :). So adding pronouns doesn't take that fact away.

I'd be far more open to awards if they were at least being honest about a category (the who, what & why) they were after.

I don't have a problem with inclusion or diversity but I don't really like the way some of the game companies pander to the nth degree either. Or slot aspects in that are not congruent to the game's canon or lore. Especially when they are being very heavy-handed or preachy like WoTC.

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 03, 2023, 03:05:39 PM

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 03, 2023, 02:43:33 PM

Quote from: SHARK on July 03, 2023, 02:30:19 PM
well, yes, it takes some humility, fortitude, and integrity to admit when you are wrong, and apologize.

Exactly... So fair play to, Lou for that.

I can't in all good conscience agree with his position, given the skewing of the award towards identity and diversity politics. It goes beyond the realm of probability.

And I can appreciate your position, can understand where you're coming from, and have to concede that unfortunately the messaging around the nominees in some cases supports your POV.

Of course something to keep in mind is that merit and identity/diversity politics are not mutually exclusive. For example, the addition of pronouns to the Call of Cthulhu character sheet doesn't change the fact that it's an excellent game.


Take Care,

Lou

Theoretically they aren't, in reality they are, or at least they prove to be when your main marketing point is "Muh Diversity!". For example ALL the recent Disney/Marvel/Pixar flops.

Same is true in gaming, for example the radiant citadel.

huh...I hadn't thought of a subscription as a way to force people to pay for content they would have boycotted otherwise.  From that angle the "no more books" concept makes sense.

Quote from: David Johansen on July 03, 2023, 08:26:18 PM
huh...I hadn't thought of a subscription as a way to force people to pay for content they would have boycotted otherwise.  From that angle the "no more books" concept makes sense.

Currently, D&DBeyond users don't get any additional content by subscription. They pay for additional content by micropayments (plus bundles that put together a bunch of small content pieces).

If anything, the micropayment model makes it easier for users to selectively boycott content that they don't like.

Quote from: LouProsperi on July 03, 2023, 02:02:08 PM
I value and trust the opinions of the people on the committee more than those who are attacking it.

Do I wish the descriptions of the nominees were more focused on their work than their gender identity or race or other non-game related stuff? Absolutely. But I also believe that there must be more to those nominees than just their gender identity and race and other non-game related stuff to make them worthy of being nominated for the award.

I believe that the award is based on gaming merit. I'd like to think that gender/race identity have little to no role in how the committee chooses nominees

I don't think it.  The fact that the first thing the site showcases is their ideological identity: "so and so is a queer non-binary (that is, biology-denier)" so-called "journalist" and "critic", is the first thing they wish to let you know, mot "this person made a great game", and with Coyote & Crow as a finalist, you know it's anything but merit-based.  These first two games are oozing with ideology.  It's no secret in the RPG industry that privilege comes with wokeness, and you don't have to try as hard to get the industry's approval and praise, and those who produce quality works are at a disadvantage without it.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on July 02, 2023, 06:34:46 AM
Wasn't Ten Bones involved with Savage Lands?

Now that is a classic RPG!

I've written and designed stuff for Paizo, WotC, Talislanta, Cyberpunk, Goodman Games, and some other stuff. And I *was* going to do the Savage Worlds Talislanta edition (twice LOL) but they fell through (but never say never.) I try to avoid small projects, unless it was for Dragon - which they often brought ideas to me (few of them I thought were any good).

Savage Worlds is still in the works for me... in fact... 2024 hopefully will be a big year for me if things go right.

Coyote & Crow won the award. Given an element of the game's content and the designer's reasons for not attending GenCon (https://coyoteandcrow.net/2023/07/18/gen-con-2023-reproductive-care/), I suspect a strong get-out-the-vote movement by the cultists of Moloch.  ;)

Hello, Lou!  :) Welcome to the RPG Mos Eisley. I hope you enjoy your stay and return. We may be a rough bar, but there is an honesty in it. I'll be singing a musical number about closing time later on; you may have seen it in the Christmas Special.  ;D Happy Life Day!