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Ok, so apparently everyone on the planet either loves Exalted or hates it. But other than that, I don't know much about it. Those are the kinds of games I love. :)

Can someone give me a brief tutorial on the mechanics, the premise (super powered godlings?), etc.?

Is there an online quick start or tutorial available?

Are there premade adventures or at least well defined settings in it to make it easier for those of us with little prep time available?

Finally, if you have an opinion on it, please feel free to state it, but I'd like this to be an informative thread, not a flame war. So if, for example, you hate charm combos, please explain why, preferably with an example.

Not my best review ever, but maybe it will help: my review of Exalted 2nd. (http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12290.phtml)

White Wolf should have previews and, IIRC, an online quick start, intro adventure, or something of that nature over on their site - //www.white-wolf.com

I love the setting, Creation.  It's fantastical, something of an amalgamation of Eastern concepts and Final Fantasy sporting everything from airships, godlings, giant swords, funky guns, reality ripping martial arts, and all manner of other cool things.  The mechanics, unfortunately, are very heavy.  Building adversaries as a Storyteller is very time consuming.

It's He-Man using the World of Darkness system.

...okay, not really.  It's got this amazing mish-mash kitchen sink of a setting, and the default player character types are demi-gods with super anime powers.

The basic mechanics are the same as White Wolf's AEon/Trinity line.  It's a D10 dice pool system, with a target number of 7.  You count the number of dice that hit the target number as successes, and the requirement of the number of successes is the Difficulty.

Exalted (the PCs) have a power pool called Essence that's basically magic points.  You spend them to activate charms (magic powers, which range from super-power schticks to flashy kung fu techniques home in an over-the-top wuxia movie) or sorcery (epic magic spells).  The more you use your power points, the more your character glows with a nimbus of energy.

The Charms come in a wide variety, all tied to certain skills your character possesses.  Like Feats in D20, they all have pre-requisites.  Unlike Feats in D20, MOST of them have other Charms as pre-requisites, forming vast "trees" of powers.  The rules for combining Charms and how you use them are very specific.  Each Charm entry is about as complicated as a spell entry in D&D, if not moreso.  Did I mention that every character has upwards of ten of these suckers?  Because they do.  That means that the game has the complexity feel of a game composed entirely of D&D wizards.  If you know the Charm (spell) lists backwards and forwards, inside and out, then it can play very fast.  If not...  well, ouch.

Oh, there's also magical items of various sorts, but no sort of economy to deal with them.  And by economy, I mean game economy, not setting economy.  The GM is given no real guidelines as to what sorts of items to throw at the players at any given stage of the game, or any hints as to what items might do to impact your game.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonWhite Wolf should have previews and, IIRC, an online quick start, intro adventure, or something of that nature over on their site - //www.white-wolf.com

This should do the trick, James.

http://download.white-wolf.com/download/download.php?file_id=509

- Q

Thanks!

Quote from: James McMurrayOk, so apparently everyone on the planet either loves Exalted or hates it.

I've had a very funny reaction to the game.  At first I liked the mechanics, but hated the setting.  Then I grew to enjoy the setting, but loathed the mechanics.  Now I just don't think about it much.  I did write a review for it once (http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6199.html), but it was for the first edition.  Funny, I thought rather highly of it at first.

!i!

I loved the setting and bought a few splats, but never could find anyone to play it with, so now I've got all these hig-production-value books gathering dust. Ah well, I got 'em on e-Bay so it wasn't ALL bad.

I prefer brains-over-brawn RPing usually, but Exalted got my inner power gamer's full attention.

It's worth pointing out that the anime influence becomes larger and larger as the games goes on, from the 1st ed. corebook onwards. If you're not a fan of anime, it's probably best to check out 1st ed. material first, and if you are, to look straight to 2nd.

Quote from: James McMurrayCan someone give me a brief tutorial on the mechanics, the premise (super powered godlings?), etc.?

I'm sorry, but I think you're lost and have wandered into the wrong forum.  I think you should be posting here (http://forum.rpg.net/forumdisplay.php?f=3). :D

Quote from: Tyberious FunkI'm sorry, but I think you're lost and have wandered into the wrong forum.  I think you should be posting here (http://forum.rpg.net/forumdisplay.php?f=3). :D

He asked for a brief tutorial, not to be drowned under a tsunami of spooge. :D

As I said to a friend of mine last night, I don't care how my Adamantium Wang Technique interacts with his Five Butt-Fucked Monkeys Prana, I just want to roll some dice and have some fun

Great setting - for BESM or Risus

Okay, time to come out of the woodwork and de-lurk...

Quote from: Tyberious FunkI'm sorry, but I think you're lost and have wandered into the wrong forum.  I think you should be posting here (http://forum.rpg.net/forumdisplay.php?f=3). :D

Well, RPG.net has a lot of love for Exalted, but the threads tend to go overboard in their overpowered-ness. I've found that the system works in my case, but that is without tacking 250 of the coolest charms and cybernetic dragon-armor on my characters. At that level you're pretty much doing advanced statistics more than RPing. On the other hand, if it wasn't for some threads over there, I wouldn't have had half of the plot ideas I used in my campaign.

So, my take on it:
Setting: It is definately a big kitchen-sink of a setting. It has ancient empires, new empires, Empires inspired by China, by Rome, by Japan, by the old Scandinavian empires... you name it. It also has city-states and regions with flat-out anarchy.
The technology base is very diverse. Most of it os early bronze age, but the bigger empires have the technology to create super-alloys for their armors, robo-suits of gigantic proportions and even skyships with enough firepower to level cities. For what it's worth, most of the supertech can be left out, should you desire. (In second edition there's a single book dedicated to its biggest outgrowths, but that one book is entirely optional).
Furthermore there are pirates, ninjas, vikings, mongol hordes, Arabian nights, tree-hugging-hippies, forest witches...
The best thing is that the setting has an excuse for everything of these, so nothing feels extremely tacked-on.

Characters: Basically in the beginning the Primordials created the world, and created the gods as their slaves, to do their dirty work. After untold eons of time, the gods becae tired of this, but they were hard-coded not to rise up against their masters (like the three laws of robotics). However, they found a loophole: they could fragment their essences and use these to exalt humans to near-godlike status. These humans then proceeded to kick the primordials' ass. The gods became the new masters, and the exalted humans were left to do the tasks the gods did previously.
However, their unlimited power (and the curse uttered by the dying primordials) drove them insane, and a massive civil war ensued. The weakest (but more numerous) terrestrial exalted drove away the celestial exalted, and ruled the world, which was vastly diminished without the power of the celestial exalted to guide it.

But now, the celestials are returning... You pick your choice of any Exalted and play your part in the events that ensue. There are 6 types of exalted: Solars, the greatest of the celestials, great generals and leaders. The Lunars, the shapeshifter assassins and aides to the Solars, who now hate the terrestrials with a passion. The Sidereals, the masters of fate (and kung-fu) who are believed to be routed out by the terrestrials but are really the secret masters of the world. The Abyssals, the Exalted of death itself, who tirelessly work to undo the world And the Terrestrial Exalted, or Dragon-Blooded, who are only just super-human in their power, but outnumber all of the other Exalted 100 to one and can combine their powers to greater effect.

System: The standard dicepool mechanic WW uses. You roll a d10 pool of Attribute+Ability and all dice that come up 7 or more are successes (10 is double). This successes get compared to a difficulty, or another players roll. (e.g. roll strength+athletics against a targets weght to see if you can lift it).

Exalted can spend Essence (magic points) to use charms, spell-like effects that can boost dicepools, add special effects to dicepools (like allowing you to ignore a targets armour, or catapulting him away, or allowing you to steal an object through a solid wall).
If you explain your characters actions in a particularly cool way, you get extra dice, and gain motes of essence (not: I said "in a cool way" not "giving twenty pages of exposition"!!!)
The relative power and effects of charms depend on the type of Exalt. Terrestrials can spit fire, but they can't change shape, and the inverse is true for Lunars. Solar charms are generally more powerful than other charms, but are more generalist, while another Exalt is usually better at its personal niche.

The combat moves in ticks, with each participant taking an action when his/her tick comes up, and this action costs a set amount of ticks. When this amount has passed, the character can act again. Non-combat actions are generally more free-flow.

Personal opinion: I personally had a blast using it. It was a bit awkward at first, especially the tick system, but once you get the hang of it, it makes for some great over-the-top action. The kitchen-sink setting makes almost any plot possible, and the system encourages risk-taking and cool stuntwork. I wouldn't want to play it all of the time, but I'll definately consider using it again in a year or so.

However: dicepool systems are not everybodies cup of tea. If you don't like to roll fistfulls of dice, Exalted is not for you. And if you aren't coming up with stunts and heroic stuff, Exalted can get extremely bland, even.
Also, the system wholehartedly embraces powerful characters. So if you are going to do low-powered stuff, you're at the wrong adress.

We played Vampire like it was city-based D&D for a while. Dice pools and powergaming can be fun. :)

Thanks!

Quote from: James McMurrayWe played Vampire like it was city-based D&D for a while.

Not the trenchcoat, katana and desert eagle variety!!?? Vade retro, Satanis!!! ;)

Quote from: James McMurrayDice pools and powergaming can be fun. :)

Well, then Exalted might be for you! The dicepools and the powergaming are two of the most common problems people seem to have with the setting. Well, that and the initial complexity of combat. Before you know the effects of the most common charms, it is much like playing DnD and Magic: the Gathering at the same time, and needing to win in both. But on the other hand, so is playing a DnD wizard, in my experience. The main difference is that in DnD the complexity ramps up quickly, while in Exalted the complexity is present from the start (but doesn't ramp up so fast).

Quote from: James McMurrayThanks!

No problem! If you have any remaining questions feel free to ask anytime.

Kasumi on tBP did a fairly comprehensive example of how Exalted 2nd works.  The thread is here (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=252712).  It hits almost every point of the Exalted system, minus the Social & Mass Combat subsystems.

Thanks!

Looking at that rpg.net example (I'm at the bleeding section right now) makes it look like the game requires a lot of bookkeeping. Among other things, you have to not only track your health level, but also what size hits did the damage. Is this something that looks worse on paper than it is in play?

Yeah. You usually use coins or dice or poker chips or glass beads or whatever in TT play to keep track of your pools like essence, WP, health etc.

Cool. We've used beads to track stuff in other games before (including hit points in an Epic D&D game) so that wouldn't be a problem.

Quote from: ThranduilWell, that and the initial complexity of combat. Before you know the effects of the most common charms, it is much like playing DnD and Magic: the Gathering at the same time, and needing to win in both. But on the other hand, so is playing a DnD wizard, in my experience. The main difference is that in DnD the complexity ramps up quickly, while in Exalted the complexity is present from the start (but doesn't ramp up so fast).

See, I found Exalted's combat complexity to be a step down from straight-up storyteller before you add the charms.  The charms do ramp up the complexity a bit, but you start with like 10-15 at most so I honestly see it as comparable to playing a D&D wizard.  Then again, I've only played the one adventure so far.

Is it possible to run a D&D Immortals type game using Exalted? I've always wanted to do something like this.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BrantaiSee, I found Exalted's combat complexity to be a step down from straight-up storyteller before you add the charms.  The charms do ramp up the complexity a bit, but you start with like 10-15 at most so I honestly see it as comparable to playing a D&D wizard.  Then again, I've only played the one adventure so far.

I'm doing an Actual Play thread about it, actually. Feel free to chime in or make corrections.

Quote from: Thanatos02I'm doing an Actual Play thread about it, actually. Feel free to chime in or make corrections.

(http://ninjor.servebeer.com/files/image/emot-awesome.gif) Awesome.

Thanks again everyone, especially for the link to the combat example. I'll definitely be checking the game out the next time I'm in the store.

Thanatos2, got a link to your Actual Play thread?

It's in the Craft & Actual Play section here, at http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=88535#post88535 (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=88535#post88535)

Thanks again!

Three biggest tips for Exalted are to use beads to track essence, a battle wheel to track initiative, and don't be afraid to BS dicepools.

Motes of essence are the currency of the characters superpowers.  Using your charms (powers) costs so many motes.  Performing stunts or resting gets them back.  So you are constantly gaining and losing motes.  Trying to keep track of this with paper is nonsense.  Just go to the old lady craft section at wal-mart and buy a mess of them.  Don't buy them at a game store!  You'll pay ten times as much for the same damn thing!

A Battle Wheel is a way to track initiative ticks.  You can get a wheel here - http://www.white-wolf.com/index.php?line=news&articleid=681 or make your own.  Its like a clock, with a marker for each PC and NPC (or group) and a time marker.  The time marker goes around and when it gets to the section your marker is on, you go.  Then however many ticks your action is, you move your marker up that many sections on the wheel.  Runs fast and smooth.  :)

Finally, there's BSing dicepools.  As GM, you may often need stats at the drop of a hat.  Sure, your main villians you'll all have statted up, but if they're tangling with someone you didn't expect it pays to be able to whip up one at the drop of a hat.  Just pick a number for their combat pool and assume between their attribute, ability, specialization, stunts, and charms they get up to that level.  Give them a couple signature move charms, and roughly double their combat pool for a mote pool - remember, they're using some of htem to keep their combat ability up.  And just roll with it - it works great.  If you want to flesh them out a bit, pick a pool for physical, social, and mental tasks.

Finally, don't be afraid of the PCs power.  Solar PCs are powerful.  They can single-handedly defeat armies.  They can found religions.  They can be killed, but its damn hard to capture, threaten, or coerce them.  If they're in a city of millions, they're going to be in the top 10 of the most powerful beings present.  And that's at chargen.  After they get some experience they'll be able to do something really cool, like track down the banished elder gods that created the world and kick the shit out of them.  Again.

One of the themes of the game is that power corrupts and actions have consequences.  So give the players Real Ultimate Power and see what they do with it.  There was an actual play atrocities thread on RPGnet, that made me mutter 'Jesus Christ, the Dragon-Blooded were right!'  Don't try to feed them a plot, give them some interesting stuff and see what they do.  They are larger than life heroes.  Every action they take has an impact on the world.  Make them feel that, make them feel that they are not just important, but perhaps one of the most important people in all Creation.

Quote from: MaddmanOne of the themes of the game is that power corrupts and actions have consequences.  So give the players Real Ultimate Power and see what they do with it.  There was an actual play atrocities thread on RPGnet, that made me mutter 'Jesus Christ, the Dragon-Blooded were right!'  Don't try to feed them a plot, give them some interesting stuff and see what they do.  They are larger than life heroes.  Every action they take has an impact on the world.  Make them feel that, make them feel that they are not just important, but perhaps one of the most important people in all Creation.

Sign me up!

Quote from: WerekoalaSign me up!

You see, that's where Exalted had me, too.  I've just never been able to come up with a way to get players to digest the 5000+ years of backstory.

I have a core rulebook that's more marked up and sticky-noted than my gross human anatomy texts.  I still can't tell you what a Yozi is. :(

If I remember my books correctly, backstory is - well, not irrelevant, but can be introduced during gameplay if you have to. Exalted aren't born that way, so until they wake up with Sunny-D shooting out of their foreheads and the plaster in their room melting, they're just normal folks. And aside from the Big Picture, how many "normal folks" know jack about anything except where their next meal is coming from?

You want them to know all the threads of the tapestry, make them important in the campaign. Otherwise, just paint in broad strokes - who runs the place, who the Dragon Blooded are, major kingdoms - that kinda stuff.  

Simple enough!

Quote from: fonkaygarryI still can't tell you what a Yozi is. :(

I'm not the expert here, but I think a Yozi is the dead portion of the primordials (the live portions are trapped and become the Malfeans...), that reside in the underworld and wish for oblivion...


but don't quote me on that. :(

Well, the vastness of the setting can be somewhat perplexing, but no-one is expecting you to know it all. Much like you don't need to know the entire history of the US to do a campaign set in the modern world. Most of the stuff can be added on a need-to-know basis. If you are adventuring in the south, you really shouldn't know everything about the funeral customs of Sijan, as Sijan is farther away than the moon is from where you're sitting now (and this is less hyperbole than it may sound).
It is more presented to make you get ideas and a sense of the culture of a certain place, rather than a list of stuff every Creationer nows. If you are just recently exalted in Gem, all you should know about Sijan is that it is rumored to be a vast cemetary, all you know about the West is that there's nothing but water until the Elemental Pole, and all you know about the north is that it is damn cold up there. If your players decide to go there, you can fill them in on the blanks as they go.

Probably the only state everybody knows about is the Realm, but even then for most it is just the big neighbour that occasionally demands tribute and is the place where most Dragon-blooded come from.

Oh, and a Yozi is a Primordial, one of the creatures that created the world but was overthrown by the Exalted. They are currently the demon lords. But even that is more than your average creationer knows. Only experienced demonologists could tell the difference between a second- or a third-circle demon, so only they would need to know such stuff. All a non-demonologist must know is that they better run away, before the demon notices them.

1st edition was actually worse in its terminology, with e.g. the Malfeans, who, naturally enough, had nothing to do with Malfeas :p

Quote from: SpikeI'm not the expert here, but I think a Yozi is the dead portion of the primordials (the live portions are trapped and become the Malfeans...), that reside in the underworld and wish for oblivion...


but don't quote me on that. :(

And... QUOTE ;)

Actually, the Yozis are the Primordials that survived. The Neverborn are the ones that died (even though in Creation if a Primordial dies, the standard procedure is: "That is not dead that can eternally lie...")

The Yozis are what remains of a Primordial when its fetich soul is slain, forcing it to reform its very nature. They are, however, very much not dead.

Quote from: ThranduilWell, the vastness of the setting can be somewhat perplexing...

Well hot damn!  All this positive talk makes me want to dust off my splats and write up a campaign.

Thanks, dude.

Quote from: fonkaygarryWell hot damn!  All this positive talk makes me want to dust off my splats and write up a campaign.

Thanks, dude.

No problem!
Now we just need to add an [EXALTED+] tag to this post, and then this place will be truly like RPG.net. After which I crawl back to my masters, the evil mods of that dark and purple place, and tell them that my unholy mission is fulfilled... ;)
Seriously, I like to be positive about Exalted. The main problem is that it is a system that polarises. RPG.net is full of the positivists, while this site is barren of all things Exalted (or all things White Wolf in general).

But, the actual reason I am posting (yet again) is to point out that not everything is necessarily perfect. The setting is one of the coolest and most well-thought-out around, yes, but the mechanics can sometimes be a bit overwhelming and just overly detailed. I honestly don't see the point of having those super-detailed rules on wounding and disease and knockback, as the book then continues to point out that the Exalted are basically just not affected by all of those. I would have liked it much better if they would have used those pages to give combat examples, or explain how dual-wielding works exactly.

Also, creating combos is highly recommended for combat, but the rules for those can be really confusing at first. And I have a love-hate relationship with perfect defences.

So, what I'm trying to say is that the system has its issues. It is IMO good at what it tries to do, and it works, but you'll need houseruling somewhat, just as with any system. Kasumi's Combat 201 example is great, but he is really using all possible rules, which is definately not how I run it, and not how I would recommend it to anyone.

I tried to add the tag, but I can't edit the title of the OP, only the text. ;)

Something to point out, the reason my Actual Play takes so long to write in general, is that it's not just a recount of what happened. The part of the project I'm interested in is to detail how the rules influence what we do, and how I feel about them. So, if you check it out, you'll generally see things like how the math breaks down, where I get confused, and how I feel about the results.

While it's a setting well-suited for epic storytelling and really interesting setting, I just don't think that's how it's going to go here. I really think that this game is pretty much a general fantasy game with big protagonists. As such, stuff like Yozi's, seperate reality-warping universes, and Byznatine politics are probably going to be left out. Also, at the power-level we're playing at, it really wouldn't be all that hard to kill us. We're pretty tough, but not that tough.

I mean, starting out playing a sorcerer, I don't really have any magic but I still had to buy the charm, the abilities, et al. My damage is coming from punching people, which just isn't that amazing.

I think that the Exalted setting, to use another rpg.netism, makes toast and then rocks on it.

The core book setting, where it's vast and full of possibility but also sticks to a kind of mythic truth.

The system makes baby Balbinus cry, but the setting as presented in the 1e core book I absolutely loved.

Exalted is one of the few White Wolf games that isn't ashamed of or afraid to wield power, openly encourages the acquisition and use of it, and builds its rules to reward players for doing so.  It's also reflected in the setting, as PCs are increasingly powerful (in raw ability and in specific capabilities, including gear) as they earn and spend XP.  In few other games is it so openly acknowledged that power is biased towards its own use, and thus favors those that will do so over those that don't- regardless of the user's morality.

Quote from: ThranduilAnd... QUOTE ;)

Actually, the Yozis are the Primordials that survived. The Neverborn are the ones that died (even though in Creation if a Primordial dies, the standard procedure is: "That is not dead that can eternally lie...")

The Yozis are what remains of a Primordial when its fetich soul is slain, forcing it to reform its very nature. They are, however, very much not dead.

Yar, I was thinking when I looked this thread back up that I might have gotten it backwards. The Malfeans are the dead ones in the underworld, the Yozi's the demons (the primoridials that lived to be banished)...

In theory, I could suggest that the malfeans are the dead portion of the Yozi's, the Fetich (why, or why, couldn't they say Fetch or fetish, why the hybrid term? ugh) that was slain.

The more I read the Exalted books the less I want to play, the more I read the threads the MORE I want to play. Damn white wolf and their crappy system stretched past the breaking point!

Cue Kirk screaming 'Khan!' into the screen in extreme close up!

second edition rules are MUCH better, they only tend to fall apart when opponents go on the same tick (it's awesome when allies go on the same tick, doing magical super-sayin combo attacks, like say surfing on a Flying Gulliotine).


Also, avoid social-combat...it's not very good.

I don't know if they're really a lot better, since I've only played 1st Ed. The rules have been quite serviceable and I've not had any problems except getting my head around the charm trees, splitting actions, and essence tracking.

I do understand that they're quite different though. I hope I get a chance to look at the new(er) edition in the future to compare.

I've said it before; decent setting, ridiculously and unnecessarily complicated system.  Why does a supernaturally fast kung-fu fight take an hour and a half to resolve?

Quote from: CessnaI've said it before; decent setting, ridiculously and unnecessarily complicated system.  Why does a supernaturally fast kung-fu fight take an hour and a half to resolve?

Because rolling buckets of dice is awesome (http://ninjor.servebeer.com/files/image/emot-awesome.gif)

Y'know, it's not even the 'hour and a half to resolve' that gets to me re:exalted.  I've run and played in fights that felt damn dynamic and fast only to realize after just how much time we'd actually spent.

No, it's the damn charm structure. This charm is necessary, that charm is pointless....   IF we are talking about 'kung fu' style combat, then why do all 'weapon weilders' have the same selection of 'abilities'?  There is no 'he whups out his 'horse kicks the knee' technique he just learned from his master to counter the previously unstoppable 'Eagle claw rends the eye' attack from the big bad. And Horse kicks the Knee proves less than optimal against 'Frying eggs in Goose Fat' from the kung fu cook over there.  

A spear guy fights like a sword guy fights like a dagger guy fights like the dude with a tree he ripped out of the ground and uses like a bat....

The four perfect defenses are the ultimate 'if you don't have it you die by your second ever fight' techniques.

Bah.

Spike has it a lot closer then Cessna seems to. Exalted combat didn't seem to take any more time then D&D usually does, but Charm selection is a little weird.

Quote from: Thanatos02Spike has it a lot closer then Cessna seems to. Exalted combat didn't seem to take any more time then D&D usually does, but Charm selection is a little weird.

It seems that every aspect of the game is needlessly over-complicated...

Quote from: CessnaIt seems that every aspect of the game is needlessly over-complicated...

I agree, it is a detailed system that tends towards slow combat even when folk generally understand their characters capabilities.

Prepping for it is also a nightmare if you're building badguys with a variety of Charms.  Ugh.

Quote from: CessnaIt seems that every aspect of the game is needlessly over-complicated...

It seemed that way until I played it, myself. I played a few games, and ran one, and it just never got to the point where it seemed all that bad. A little crunchy on Charm selection (I literally typed 'Feat' without thinking, first. >.>), and there seem to be a few hiccups sometimes (usually because of awkward book formatting), but not too hard in actual play.

I think it boils down to one's idea of complexity and if you've played it at all. Maybe I've been playing it wrong, but none of our play situations look anything at all like the highly-detailed tutorials I've seen on rpg.net which, while helpful once I see what they're talking about, start off nearly as complicated as they can and then assume you already know what they're talking about. If you can play D&D3.x, you can almost certainly play Exalted.

Quote from: Thanatos02If you can play D&D3.x, you can almost certainly play Exalted.

Fair enough...

But why?

The folks in my group have all been playing D&D in one form or another for at least a decade and a half.  Most of us cut our teeth on the old AD&D books.  Sure, 3.x changed things up a lot, but we all are familiar with the system to be able to puzzle out the weird stuff and wing it when we don't want to get into nitpicking detail, without wrecking the game in the process.

I can't say the same about Exalted.  None of us are White Wolf vets.  And, frankly, I can't get anyone in my group to invest the time it would take to become "Exalted proficient."  It just doesn't seem to be worth it, to them or to me.  Why read hundreds of pages and work through all of the weird charms, the new combat system, the strange builds - just to play a game that doesn't really seem all that much better than a pick-up D&D game?

Sure, it looks cool.  But not cool enough for the busy people I game with.

Quote from: CessnaSure, it looks cool.  But not cool enough for the busy people I game with.

exactly.  I looked it over (first version) and made it halfway thru the book, then got sick of the fiction.  

picked it up again months later, telling myself "surely it gets better...i just have to soldier on."  needless to say, it was eventually given to Goodwill or the Women's Shelter.

the people i game with a) hate anime (with the exception of one guys GF), and b) are all old school D&D players who are like "why learn a new system...with anime?"

did i mention i'm not too keen on anime? (or manga or whatever it's called.)

Quote from: CessnaBut why?

Because it's fun?  It's a very imaginative campaign world full of things to do, places to see, problems to solve.  The system is gamey, detailed, and provides a unique feel.

If your group is too busy to learn another game or just prefers D&D then that's totally cool.  My players of the moment refuse to read anything, so I can relate (we only play games I can reasonably teach without anyone having to read).  It seems like a weak argument against Exalted in particular, though.  It's just an argument against any rules sufficiently detailed that they require multiple players to read the rules, purchase copies of the game, or dedicate some time to it.  There are many, many games that fall into that category.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonIt's just an argument against any rules sufficiently detailed that they require multiple players to read the rules, purchase copies of the game, or dedicate some time to it.  There are many, many games that fall into that category.

Including D&D. It just has the benefit that the players in question have already read it.

Quote from: James McMurrayIncluding D&D. It just has the benefit that the players in question have already read it.

Right!

Quote from: C.W.RichesonBecause it's fun?

Or any of the other reasons people watch Bourne movies after having seen Bond movies, eat italian sausage spaghetti sauce after they had roasted garlic spaghettic sause, read Robert Jordan after reading Tad Williams, and so on.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiOr any of the other reasons people watch Bourne movies after having seen Bond movies, eat italian sausage spaghetti sauce after they had roasted garlic spaghettic sause, read Robert Jordan after reading Tad Williams, and so on.

Seanchai

Having read Robert Jordan and Tad Williams I have to say that Robert Jordan is no Tad Williams.

Of course, other than that there is a significant difference between giving a few hours over to entertainment (movies) where freshness can be a good thing and spending immense amounts of time studying and learning a whole new set of rules once you've mastered a game you already enjoy.

There is a reason we don't see Tiger Woods playing pro basketball.  Or Micheal Jordan returning TO basketball after a stint in Baseball...

without the big names and big money, the same can hold true to mastering an RPG ruleset...

Quote from: C.W.RichesonIf your group is too busy to learn another game or just prefers D&D then that's totally cool.  My players of the moment refuse to read anything, so I can relate (we only play games I can reasonably teach without anyone having to read).  It seems like a weak argument against Exalted in particular, though.  It's just an argument against any rules sufficiently detailed that they require multiple players to read the rules, purchase copies of the game, or dedicate some time to it.  There are many, many games that fall into that category.

That's true.  And I understand that it is entirely a matter of taste.  However, at this point in time, my group - and I - seem to have come to the conclusion that the gain (playing Exalted) isn't worth the expense (time spent learning a completely new system).

YMMV, etc, of course.

Quote from: SpikeHaving read Robert Jordan and Tad Williams I have to say that Robert Jordan is no Tad Williams.

And Italian sausage spaghetti sauce is no roasted garlic spaghettic sauce.

Quote from: SpikeOf course, other than that there is a significant difference between giving a few hours over to entertainment (movies) where freshness can be a good thing and spending immense amounts of time studying and learning a whole new set of rules once you've mastered a game you already enjoy.

Except that's an exaggeration—you don't have to spend "immense amounts of time studying and learning a whole new set of rules."

Let me be clear: I could care less what people outside of my group do. I want to emphasize this point. I *COULD CARE LESS* what people outside my group do. Play the same game for the rest of your life. Use minis. Don't use minis. Roleplay or rollplay—I really don't give a damn.

That said, there are perfectly valid—and when you think about it, immentiently understandable—reasons why a person might recommend trying a new game or a group might decide to do so. It's not bizzare or abnormal. There should really be no need to explain such behavior...

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiAnd Italian sausage spaghetti sauce is no roasted garlic spaghettic sauce.



Except that's an exaggeration—you don't have to spend "immense amounts of time studying and learning a whole new set of rules."

Let me be clear: I could care less what people outside of my group do. I want to emphasize this point. I *COULD CARE LESS* what people outside my group do. Play the same game for the rest of your life. Use minis. Don't use minis. Roleplay or rollplay—I really don't give a damn.

That said, there are perfectly valid—and when you think about it, immentiently understandable—reasons why a person might recommend trying a new game or a group might decide to do so. It's not bizzare or abnormal. There should really be no need to explain such behavior...

Seanchai

What? You've never had Italian Sausage Roasted Garlic Spagetti Sauce?  For shame!!!

 Actually, it's not an exaggeration. Learning to master an entirely new ruleset, especially one like exalted where every charm is practially it's own special rule, DOES take a significant amount of time and energy... particularly if all you get out of it is more of the same gaming you already get.

Sure, I can teach my players Serenity in about 15 minutes. So we can get our Serenity groove on in 15 minutes. I can't say the same thing about GURPS. Which one am I going to have more luck introducing players too if they are already happy playing Traveller?  The one they pick up faster and easier, probably.

Now, I might convince them to take on the challenge of GURPS by pointing out any number of excellent facts about it (does gritty realism damn well, thank you, can be ported over with zero learning curve to just about any genre in a twinkle, powerful ability to self determine abilities across a wider spectrum than almost any game known to man or beast, completeness....)

When we talk about the learning curve of Exalted being a barrier to 'pick up and play' its not just because we made it up, it's real. It's also more complex than that, because let's face it... the rules are not really all that impressive.  Other than encouraging you to think 'godlike power' what does the ruleset provide that medium to high level D&D doesn't?  Nothing but the chance to spend hours and dollars on all new books.


Good on you that it works well for you.    Not true for everyone here, obviously, but you seem to want to pretend that it should.

Quote from: CessnaIt seems that every aspect of the game is needlessly over-complicated...

Hmm, I agree but...

...I think Exalted's biggest sin is that it layers on a tactical Charm-based mechanic into what's a pretty unexciting, un-tactical core combat model.

Say what you want about D&D and AoO's and the like, but as a game it functions and wins because every turn decisions matter.  Imagine how less fun it would be if the tactical model were nigh non-existent and everything depended on the interaction of spells (which everyone has, btw).

My god, the pain.

That's what drives me nuts about Exalted.  I want the core tactical model to be interesting, diverse, and crunchy and the charms to be simple, fun, and flavorful.  It's like the game was designed upside-down, with all the important mechanics in the wrong place.  Think about it:  movement doesn't really matter until Charms enter the picture.  At which point, certain charms demand the careful track of movement and seemingly add their own rules flourishes.  What the fuck?  And that's just one example.

At least as far as I'm concerned.

The issue about learning to play is valid. It's going to take a little time, and I can certainly understand not wanting to study a system like this to figure out how it works when there's a game you're playing that already scratches that itch, and/or you don't want to learn a new ruleset.

I guess I'm primarily talking to Cessna on this one, since he seemed to bring it up first. I see where you're coming from, and I wouldn't recommend Exalted to you even if you hadn't already said you weren't interested. My only point was that it's not any more complicated then common gaming staples. D&D takes time to learn too, though at its core is a pretty simple mechanism.

RedFox, unless you're talking about just movement, I'd say every turn's decisions matter in Exalted too. Maybe even more so, since a miscalculation on your action one round might get you spattered at any level of play, even against perfectly mundane soldiers. As far as movement goes, I think it's just measured in yards, and is only moderetly important. It lacks AoOs, but I think that's it. Essentially, you can not like the basic mechanism if you like, but I think your premise might be flawed, as I understand it.

As far as the basic game mechanism, both D20 and Storyteller systems are quite generic in nature, though.

Quote from: SpikeActually, it's not an exaggeration.

No, it is.

Quote from: SpikeLearning to master an entirely new ruleset, especially one like exalted where every charm is practially it's own special rule, DOES take a significant amount of time and energy... particularly if all you get out of it is more of the same gaming you already get.

I agree that it takes time and energy. I don't think it's exactly "significant." Here's why.

1. Games fall into broad categories. If you've grasped the basics of one roll under system, you've got a basic understanding of all of them.

2. You only need to learn the rules you'll be using. No need to understand how every Advantage, Charm, Feat or spell works.

3. If you have a basic understanding of the core rules and those you'll be using for your character, NPC, situation, etc., you can look up the rest of the rules as needed.

Quote from: SpikeWhen we talk about the learning curve of Exalted being a barrier to 'pick up and play' its not just because we made it up, it's real.

Sure there's a learning curve. But that's life.

Quote from: SpikeOther than encouraging you to think 'godlike power' what does the ruleset provide that medium to high level D&D doesn't?  Nothing but the chance to spend hours and dollars on all new books.

Why see Casino Royale if you've spent time, money, and energy on Bourne Supremancy? I mean, either you want to or you don't. If you don't, cool. If you do, cool.

But the latter isn't weird or unusual.  

Quote from: SpikeNot true for everyone here, obviously, but you seem to want to pretend that it should.

I'm not sure how to respond as I'm not sure what "it" is.

Seanchai

What is insignificant to you is significant to someone else. Arguing it is pointless.

Also, some people, especially the power gamers that tend to be drawn to games depicting demi-gods, like to fully understand every single option before making a choice. For those people, learning how every advantage, feat, and charm works is important.

Quote from: James McMurrayAlso, some people, especially the power gamers that tend to be drawn to games depicting demi-gods, like to fully understand every single option before making a choice. For those people, learning how every advantage, feat, and charm works is important.

Sure, but that's not a function of the game.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiSure, but that's not a function of the game.

I think it is, to some extent.

A simpler, more streamlined game usually does not present players with the same number of opportunities to tweak their character through things like min-maxed pre-figured Diablo II-like "builds" or perfectly designed charm combos.  A game with a simpler system with less to fiddle with is usually more resistant to exploitation or rules-based power-gaming.

And, more to the point, Exalted actively rewards - through character success - the players who master down to minutae every advantage,feat, or charm.  A game with a simpler system doesn't lend itself to this sort of thing.

Which game is more likely to appeal to a player out to wring every possible advantage out of a perfectly-built character through extreme, detail oriented rules mastery, Exalted or FUDGE?

Quote from: CessnaI think it is, to some extent.

A simpler, more streamlined game usually does not present players with the same number of opportunities to tweak their character through things like min-maxed pre-figured Diablo II-like "builds" or perfectly designed charm combos.  A game with a simpler system with less to fiddle with is usually more resistant to exploitation or rules-based power-gaming.

And, more to the point, Exalted actively rewards - through character success - the players who master down to minutae every advantage,feat, or charm.  A game with a simpler system doesn't lend itself to this sort of thing.

Which game is more likely to appeal to a player out to wring every possible advantage out of a perfectly-built character through extreme, detail oriented rules mastery, Exalted or FUDGE?

Have you played Exalted?

Quote from: LostscotsmanHave you played Exalted?

Yes.  I was a player in a campaign that lasted about five sessions a few years ago.  We gave up and went back to our then-ongoing Planescape campaign after the GM (and players, but mostly the GM) became frustrated with the system.  I still have many of the books, but at this point they gather dust on a shelf.  I hoped the 2nd edition would solve some of the problems; after reading the core rulebook I decided it hadn't and dropped the idea of volunteering to run it for the group.

Quote from: CessnaI think it is, to some extent.

A simpler, more streamlined game usually does not present players with the same number of opportunities to tweak their character through things like min-maxed pre-figured Diablo II-like "builds" or perfectly designed charm combos.  A game with a simpler system with less to fiddle with is usually more resistant to exploitation or rules-based power-gaming.

And, more to the point, Exalted actively rewards - through character success - the players who master down to minutae every advantage,feat, or charm.  A game with a simpler system doesn't lend itself to this sort of thing.

Which game is more likely to appeal to a player out to wring every possible advantage out of a perfectly-built character through extreme, detail oriented rules mastery, Exalted or FUDGE?

I agree with you, but I also think D&D 3.x is like this, and I like both D&D 3.x and Exalted for being just this kind of fiddly system. On the other hand, I think D&D 3.x does it better than Exalted does, and I like playing D&D 3.x more, at least these days.

D&D definitely does it better.  Moreover D&D has a guideline for challenging the PCs, which Exalted lacks (though it's had aborted attempts at such).

S'why I keep wishing for Exalted D20.

Quote from: RedFoxD&D definitely does it better.  Moreover D&D has a guideline for challenging the PCs, which Exalted lacks (though it's had aborted attempts at such).

White Wolf created one for nWoD, so who knows.

Seanchai

Quote from: RedFoxD&D definitely does it better.  Moreover D&D has a guideline for challenging the PCs, which Exalted lacks (though it's had aborted attempts at such).

S'why I keep wishing for Exalted D20.

D&D has more baseline coherennce, largely due to it being designed as an interlocking system from the ground up, with new feats/spells/classes building on a well defined foundation.

Exalted - in both editions - is more akin to latter day AD&D 2e. It's a revision of a system already built on three or four previous Storyteller incarnations, and as such has baseline assumptions that are at odds with the current designers intent. A good example is damage and soak, which has evolved from the simple, narrative-friendly model of Vampire 1e into Bashing/Lethal/Aggravated, further complicated by rules for Bleeding, Infection, Essence Ping, Piercing, Overwhelming, Hardness, Crippling, Stunning and Knockback effects. And that's before dozens of rule-breaking Charms are added to the mix.

I still have a lot of fondness for the game, and would love to run it again with competent players, but there's no denying the system has accreted rather than grown. The Second Edition should have been approached with the same design mentality as 3.5 - define the core assumptions of play then rewrite the system to support it.

Quote from: SeanchaiWhite Wolf created one for nWoD, so who knows.

Seanchai

They did?

Quote from: hgjsThey did?

The forthcoming Monte Cook's World of Darkness.

There was also a d20 version of Adventure!, but it wasn't too well received IIRC.

Quote from: DrewThe forthcoming Monte Cook's World of Darkness.

There was also a d20 version of Adventure!, but it wasn't too well received IIRC.

I thought he was referring to "a guideline for challenging the PCs."

Quote from: hgjsI thought he was referring to "a guideline for challenging the PCs."

You're right. My mistake.

Quote from: DrewD&D has more baseline coherennce, largely due to it being designed as an interlocking system from the ground up, with new feats/spells/classes building on a well defined foundation.

Exalted - in both editions - is more akin to latter day AD&D 2e. It's a revision of a system already built on three or four previous Storyteller incarnations, and as such has baseline assumptions that are at odds with the current designers intent. A good example is damage and soak, which has evolved from the simple, narrative-friendly model of Vampire 1e into Bashing/Lethal/Aggravated, further complicated by rules for Bleeding, Infection, Essence Ping, Piercing, Overwhelming, Hardness, Crippling, Stunning and Knockback effects. And that's before dozens of rule-breaking Charms are added to the mix.

I still have a lot of fondness for the game, and would love to run it again with competent players, but there's no denying the system has accreted rather than grown. The Second Edition should have been approached with the same design mentality as 3.5 - define the core assumptions of play then rewrite the system to support it.

Couldn't agree more.

Quote from: RedFoxCouldn't agree more.

I'd love to ask the current development team what they'd come up with if WW policy didn't shackle the system to the old ST mechanics. Seriously, if ever there was a game looking for a one or two-die resoloution mechanic then Exalted is it.

Thinking about it though I'd probably leave R. Borgstrom out. As much as I like her writing, I find her approach to rules-writing idiosyncratic at best.

Quote from: DrewI still have a lot of fondness for the game, and would love to run it again with competent players, but there's no denying the system has accreted rather than grown. The Second Edition should have been approached with the same design mentality as 3.5 - define the core assumptions of play then rewrite the system to support it.

Well, there's no denying you need competent players for Exalted. They really have to "get" the mechanics, otherwise the came will collapse whenever you're dealing with more than a single mortal antagonist.

The main problem is that all of these extra systems (bleeding, disease, infection...) are superfluous. Any Exalted worth his/her mettle does not need to worry about that. I sure know I never used such systems. Maybe if you play a game using heroic mortals you should use it, but mortals already leave most charms out, so that leaves more space for worrying about matters like bleeding...
Those subsystems really seem like artefacts from a horror game crammed into a game that is heroic fantasy (which is exactly what they are, in fact).

I wouldn't really say that DnD 3.5 doesn't have its quirks, however. It is literally full of weird feats and new subsystems (psionics, several new types of magic, incarnum, some feats that slow down combat immensely...)
Somehow, however, people seem to have less problems with leaving entire books out of their DnD sessions, while they feel the need to include every Exalted book ever printed into their Exalted sessions. Something which is really optional, and not compulsory. Sidereals, Lunars, Abyssals, Alchemicals and fair folk can easily be left out, or confined to antagonists. Dragon-blooded are somewhat harder to leave out, but their charms tend to be more manageable anyway. Anyhow, I tend to always say yes, but if my players wanted to play a circle consisting of a Solar, Sidereal, DB, heroic mortal and a Raksha, my answer would be a resounding NO!

Quote from: ThranduilWell, there's no denying you need competent players for Exalted. They really have to "get" the mechanics, otherwise the came will collapse whenever you're dealing with more than a single mortal antagonist.

Oh god yes, it's been my single biggest hurdle when putting together an Exalted game over the last few years.

QuoteThe main problem is that all of these extra systems (bleeding, disease, infection...) are superfluous. Any Exalted worth his/her mettle does not need to worry about that. I sure know I never used such systems. Maybe if you play a game using heroic mortals you should use it, but mortals already leave most charms out, so that leaves more space for worrying about matters like bleeding...

Granted for the subsystems you list, but stuff like Hardness, Essence Ping, Overwhelming Damage, Piercing Damage, Knockback and Stun all have an appreciable difference on how combat plays out. Many of them are remamants from Power Combat, which was itself an overly complex patch for all the fiddly bits the ST engine wasn't up to handling.

QuoteThose subsystems really seem like artefacts from a horror game crammed into a game that is heroic fantasy (which is exactly what they are, in fact).

Indeed.

QuoteI wouldn't really say that DnD 3.5 doesn't have its quirks, however. It is literally full of weird feats and new subsystems (psionics, several new types of magic, incarnum, some feats that slow down combat immensely...)
Somehow, however, people seem to have less problems with leaving entire books out of their DnD sessions, while they feel the need to include every Exalted book ever printed into their Exalted sessions. Something which is really optional, and not compulsory. Sidereals, Lunars, Abyssals, Alchemicals and fair folk can easily be left out, or confined to antagonists. Dragon-blooded are somewhat harder to leave out, but their charms tend to be more manageable anyway. Anyhow, I tend to always say yes, but if my players wanted to play a circle consisting of a Solar, Sidereal, DB, heroic mortal and a Raksha, my answer would be a resounding NO!

3.5 is designed with modularity in mind, presenting reams of options that can be plugged in to the existing system with relative ease. Exalted on the other hand makes the various splats fairly integral to the setting, in a way that the latest PrC from 'The Manual of Umpteen Choices' doesn't.

I'd run a mixed group, but would expect 99% of the heavy lifting to be done by the players regarding system.

Quote from: DrewGranted for the subsystems you list, but stuff like Hardness, Essence Ping, Overwhelming Damage, Piercing Damage, Knockback and Stun all have an appreciable difference on how combat plays out. Many of them are remamants from Power Combat, which was itself an overly complex patch for all the fiddly bits the ST engine wasn't up to handling.

Well, the hardnessand piercing are really not that complex. Hardness is just a damage treshold, and piercing isn't that hard to take into account. Not if you use the various SR or DR in DnD, IMO.

However, systems like knockback and stun are nasty. Especially the amount of bookkeeping required to see when they happen. Add to that the fact that speed and distance are vital statistics, but almost impossible to implement without using miniatures, and they become the greatest nuisance in the system. Perhaps if I would have to designate my biggest annoyance, it would be just that: for all the bookkeeping on speed and distance, they are irrellevant in most situations. Yet the charm system keeps referencing them over and over and over...

Increasingly, I'm beginning to think that Exalted works for me just because I've thrown half of it out of the window (except when dramatically appropriate). Of course, I know next to no one who plays any system out of the box, so I hope I'm not abnormal in that.

Quote from: Drew3.5 is designed with modularity in mind, presenting reams of options that can be plugged in to the existing system with relative ease. Exalted on the other hand makes the various splats fairly integral to the setting, in a way that the latest PrC from 'The Manual of Umpteen Choices' doesn't.

Hmm, we disagree there, then.
The way I see it, e.g. Sidereals are perfectly optional. Just assume that they do their work so fate runs normally, and that they don't interfere with the characters because they have enormous amounts of red tape to deal with in heaven. They are integral to the setting, perhaps, but not in the day-to-day life of even your adventurers, just like China has a vital role to play in the world history, but not in my day to day life, except perhaps indirectly.
Abyssals can be mostly confined to the Underworld, and Lunars rarely leave the Wyld. Fae are busy in the wyld as well. And creation is so vast, and Exalted are so few, that they never have to meet without ST fiat.
It is not that different from never having Thay come up in the Forgotten Realms, or eliminating Argonessen from Eberron, or never making even a single reference to Nyarlathotep in Call of Cthulhu.

So if all of that is relegated to off-stage, what on earth do you use for antagonists?

That's the other half of the Exalted difficulty equation:  NPCs are the main antagonists, and there's A: no guidelines to NPC vs. party challenge level, and B: NPCs are fucking complex and require their own splatbooks to build.  It's not like you can use the POS ST handbook for them, as the damn thing's broken beyond all measure and doesn't even use the core's rule system.

Exalted's got this weird myopia when it comes to its game design.  Its setting is given razor-sharp focus, and the Charm system is the gleeful love-child of feats and collectible card games.  But there's these gaping wide swaths of game-pertinent design issues that go untouched upon.

Quote from: RedFoxExalted's got this weird myopia when it comes to its game design.  Its setting is given razor-sharp focus, and the Charm system is the gleeful love-child of feats and collectible card games.  But there's these gaping wide swaths of game-pertinent design issues that go untouched upon.

Preach it.

Quote from: hgjsI thought he was referring to "a guideline for challenging the PCs."

Yeah, I was. And they did. If you look at the three PDF adventures they released, have guidelines about how many XP a character should have and rate the adventure of scales like combat, social, problem solving.

Seanchai

Do the pdfs give a usable system for GMs to generate their own challenges, or is it more like (A)D&D's label of "This Adventure suitable for 4-6 characters of levels 5-7": a guideline for the adventure, but not as useful for homebrew material.

Drew and RedFox have both actually touched on the biggest problem I have with Exalted. Of course, just like their game design is a throwback to the old WoD game lines, so too is their editing procedure. There's little more maddening on a Storyteller-level then having bought the core book and finding there's only, like, 2 poorly-done NPC Dragonblooded to fight, and 1 Sidereal. Sure, you don't have to fight any of these dudes, but if you never buy another book, you're pretty much fighting some mortals and if your Celestial and Terrestrial Exalts come off like watered-down Solars with nothing unique or interesting to bring to the table, then that's fine, because that's exactly what they are.

At least D&D is up front. "You need these three books." It says. "You can run a game from 1-20 with these books and never need a new one." If you buy three books in Exalted, depending on what you got, you can fight Solars, Sidereals, and Dragonblooded. 3 types. You skipped on the Abyssal book because you figured you could just make a Solar in black armor and end all of the charms with the words "Death", "Pain", or "Tears". There's a good amount of varience in those books, to be fair, but sooner or later the PCs are going to want to shiv a Fey, or something, and you've got no idea how that goes.

Not to mention there's no real decent standard Beastery of Creation. But Exalted isn't the only line with this problem. Mage, Hunter, Vampire, and pretty much every other line under the sun from WW has had this problem at some point. Mostly you just made shit up, but it shows.

As someone who's had a couple of the Exalted 1st fatsplats and is just about to get into Exalted 2nd (I'm awaiting the delivery as we speak), I have a question:

It seems there's two levels of Exalted powers -- the codified toys of Charms and what I call the real gamebreaking shit (I'm really talking about Solar Sorcery and Sidereal Astrology) that's ideally suited to a more freeform game.  A possible third may be all this magitech stuff that I have no exposure to outside of netspace.  How easy is it to say: "not in my game!"  I look at that gamebreaking shit and it really looks like some watered down variation of their Mage lines, and I enjoyed Mage in the day but I really don't want that stuff in my game today.

D&D for all its codification does have its own versions of freeform gamebreaking shit -- wishes, miracles and One Ring styled artifacts in particular -- but those elements are pretty miniscule so that they don't affect the Core Story.  I look at Exalted and I'm digging what it has to say, but then I get these tacked on freeform elements and I blanch and the incoherence of it all (in the dictionary sense, not the Forge sense).

Quote from: ThranduilWell, the hardnessand piercing are really not that complex. Hardness is just a damage treshold, and piercing isn't that hard to take into account. Not if you use the various SR or DR in DnD, IMO.

True, but looking at any of the subsystems in isolation makes them seem simple enough. It's the endless layering of them that really bothers me, especially from a GM's pov.  

QuoteHowever, systems like knockback and stun are nasty. Especially the amount of bookkeeping required to see when they happen. Add to that the fact that speed and distance are vital statistics, but almost impossible to implement without using miniatures, and they become the greatest nuisance in the system. Perhaps if I would have to designate my biggest annoyance, it would be just that: for all the bookkeeping on speed and distance, they are irrellevant in most situations. Yet the charm system keeps referencing them over and over and over...

Yep, there's a huge number of details to track when following the rules a written. Most of them really don't add any extra excitement or enjoyment to play, unless one enjoys crunch for its own sake.

QuoteIncreasingly, I'm beginning to think that Exalted works for me just because I've thrown half of it out of the window (except when dramatically appropriate). Of course, I know next to no one who plays any system out of the box, so I hope I'm not abnormal in that.

I think this is the default playstyle for many Exalted GM's. If I send a bunch of experienced Immaculates against a Solar Circle there's no way I'm going to track all their charm interactions, mote pools, and static value fluctuations. I like well defined antagonists who present a tactical challenge, but the system would have me running five 150xp npc's in exactly the same way as player characters! Fuck that.

QuoteHmm, we disagree there, then.
The way I see it, e.g. Sidereals are perfectly optional. Just assume that they do their work so fate runs normally, and that they don't interfere with the characters because they have enormous amounts of red tape to deal with in heaven. They are integral to the setting, perhaps, but not in the day-to-day life of even your adventurers, just like China has a vital role to play in the world history, but not in my day to day life, except perhaps indirectly.
Abyssals can be mostly confined to the Underworld, and Lunars rarely leave the Wyld. Fae are busy in the wyld as well. And creation is so vast, and Exalted are so few, that they never have to meet without ST fiat.
It is not that different from never having Thay come up in the Forgotten Realms, or eliminating Argonessen from Eberron, or never making even a single reference to Nyarlathotep in Call of Cthulhu.

Like RedFox said, when you require detailed antagonists then the books become increasingly necessary. Most of the threats listed in the core are either far too weak to pose a challenge or powerful enough to wipe a newly Exalted circle out. Little or no support is given to running the other various splats outside of a couple of examples.

Of course their details can be handwaved away, and that's largely what I do to avoid the Immaculate problem above, but my point is that the sytem as written doesn't have the kind of coherence and presentation that facilitates swift, easily resolved play. I can simplify any game I own, but it's a rare one that requires me to excise so much, and not because I want to, but because I really can't see a way of running the thing without continually interrupting play for system consultation and cross-referencing.

Quote from: MoriartyAs someone who's had a couple of the Exalted 1st fatsplats and is just about to get into Exalted 2nd (I'm awaiting the delivery as we speak), I have a question:

It seems there's two levels of Exalted powers -- the codified toys of Charms and what I call the real gamebreaking shit (I'm really talking about Solar Sorcery and Sidereal Astrology) that's ideally suited to a more freeform game.  A possible third may be all this magitech stuff that I have no exposure to outside of netspace.  How easy is it to say: "not in my game!"  I look at that gamebreaking shit and it really looks like some watered down variation of their Mage lines, and I enjoyed Mage in the day but I really don't want that stuff in my game today.

D&D for all its codification does have its own versions of freeform gamebreaking shit -- wishes, miracles and One Ring styled artifacts in particular -- but those elements are pretty miniscule so that they don't affect the Core Story.  I look at Exalted and I'm digging what it has to say, but then I get these tacked on freeform elements and I blanch and the incoherence of it all (in the dictionary sense, not the Forge sense).

Exactly. Many of the subsytems are mini-games unto themselves, which make for great reading, but are a complete pain to slip seamlessly into a fast paced game of epic action.

D&D knows what it is. The writers have a clear idea of the systems strengths and play to them. Exalted on the other hand seems to take the in-charcter mentality of "if it feels good, do it" and apply it as a design ethos, which leads to all kinds of isolated and wonky little subsystems emerging to further complicate play.

But... But...

There's gonna be a swimsuit calendar!

Quote from: fonkaygarryBut... But...

There's gonna be a swimsuit calendar!

I'd rather see a WFRP one, with camp followers displaying their buboes for all to see and the Lichemaster striking a provocative pose as Miss Sigmarzeit.

Quote from: James McMurrayDo the pdfs give a usable system for GMs to generate their own challenges, or is it more like (A)D&D's label of "This Adventure suitable for 4-6 characters of levels 5-7": a guideline for the adventure, but not as useful for homebrew material.

It's just labels at this point...

Seanchai

Quote from: MoriartyAs someone who's had a couple of the Exalted 1st fatsplats and is just about to get into Exalted 2nd (I'm awaiting the delivery as we speak), I have a question:

It seems there's two levels of Exalted powers -- the codified toys of Charms and what I call the real gamebreaking shit (I'm really talking about Solar Sorcery and Sidereal Astrology) that's ideally suited to a more freeform game.  A possible third may be all this magitech stuff that I have no exposure to outside of netspace.  How easy is it to say: "not in my game!"  I look at that gamebreaking shit and it really looks like some watered down variation of their Mage lines, and I enjoyed Mage in the day but I really don't want that stuff in my game today.

D&D for all its codification does have its own versions of freeform gamebreaking shit -- wishes, miracles and One Ring styled artifacts in particular -- but those elements are pretty miniscule so that they don't affect the Core Story.  I look at Exalted and I'm digging what it has to say, but then I get these tacked on freeform elements and I blanch and the incoherence of it all (in the dictionary sense, not the Forge sense).

Sorcery's difficult if not impossible to extract, because there's not much else to do with the Occult ability.  The Charm tree's kinda small, shored up by Sorcery.

Magitech is just the magic items you already have: artifacts.  There's just more of them and more different kinds, so keeping it reasonable means keeping what shows up in the game reasonable.

Of course there's sub-systems for Artifact construction and that's a whole other (complicated, dumb) ball of wax.

As to other stuff:  You'll find there's more dumb sub-systems in 2nd edition than in first.  Mass Combat and Social Combat are both their own rules system, and they're core now and tightly wedded into the game.  As I may've mentioned before, it's almost impossible to extract Social Combat if you don't like it, because any random Charm could call upon it.  The Stealth charm tree, for example, is now full of stuff like unnatural mental compulsions, which are handled by Social Combat.