The issue about learning to play is valid. It's going to take a little time, and I can certainly understand not wanting to study a system like this to figure out how it works when there's a game you're playing that already scratches that itch, and/or you don't want to learn a new ruleset.

I guess I'm primarily talking to Cessna on this one, since he seemed to bring it up first. I see where you're coming from, and I wouldn't recommend Exalted to you even if you hadn't already said you weren't interested. My only point was that it's not any more complicated then common gaming staples. D&D takes time to learn too, though at its core is a pretty simple mechanism.

RedFox, unless you're talking about just movement, I'd say every turn's decisions matter in Exalted too. Maybe even more so, since a miscalculation on your action one round might get you spattered at any level of play, even against perfectly mundane soldiers. As far as movement goes, I think it's just measured in yards, and is only moderetly important. It lacks AoOs, but I think that's it. Essentially, you can not like the basic mechanism if you like, but I think your premise might be flawed, as I understand it.

As far as the basic game mechanism, both D20 and Storyteller systems are quite generic in nature, though.

Quote from: SpikeActually, it's not an exaggeration.

No, it is.

Quote from: SpikeLearning to master an entirely new ruleset, especially one like exalted where every charm is practially it's own special rule, DOES take a significant amount of time and energy... particularly if all you get out of it is more of the same gaming you already get.

I agree that it takes time and energy. I don't think it's exactly "significant." Here's why.

1. Games fall into broad categories. If you've grasped the basics of one roll under system, you've got a basic understanding of all of them.

2. You only need to learn the rules you'll be using. No need to understand how every Advantage, Charm, Feat or spell works.

3. If you have a basic understanding of the core rules and those you'll be using for your character, NPC, situation, etc., you can look up the rest of the rules as needed.

Quote from: SpikeWhen we talk about the learning curve of Exalted being a barrier to 'pick up and play' its not just because we made it up, it's real.

Sure there's a learning curve. But that's life.

Quote from: SpikeOther than encouraging you to think 'godlike power' what does the ruleset provide that medium to high level D&D doesn't?  Nothing but the chance to spend hours and dollars on all new books.

Why see Casino Royale if you've spent time, money, and energy on Bourne Supremancy? I mean, either you want to or you don't. If you don't, cool. If you do, cool.

But the latter isn't weird or unusual.  

Quote from: SpikeNot true for everyone here, obviously, but you seem to want to pretend that it should.

I'm not sure how to respond as I'm not sure what "it" is.

Seanchai

What is insignificant to you is significant to someone else. Arguing it is pointless.

Also, some people, especially the power gamers that tend to be drawn to games depicting demi-gods, like to fully understand every single option before making a choice. For those people, learning how every advantage, feat, and charm works is important.

Quote from: James McMurrayAlso, some people, especially the power gamers that tend to be drawn to games depicting demi-gods, like to fully understand every single option before making a choice. For those people, learning how every advantage, feat, and charm works is important.

Sure, but that's not a function of the game.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiSure, but that's not a function of the game.

I think it is, to some extent.

A simpler, more streamlined game usually does not present players with the same number of opportunities to tweak their character through things like min-maxed pre-figured Diablo II-like "builds" or perfectly designed charm combos.  A game with a simpler system with less to fiddle with is usually more resistant to exploitation or rules-based power-gaming.

And, more to the point, Exalted actively rewards - through character success - the players who master down to minutae every advantage,feat, or charm.  A game with a simpler system doesn't lend itself to this sort of thing.

Which game is more likely to appeal to a player out to wring every possible advantage out of a perfectly-built character through extreme, detail oriented rules mastery, Exalted or FUDGE?

Quote from: CessnaI think it is, to some extent.

A simpler, more streamlined game usually does not present players with the same number of opportunities to tweak their character through things like min-maxed pre-figured Diablo II-like "builds" or perfectly designed charm combos.  A game with a simpler system with less to fiddle with is usually more resistant to exploitation or rules-based power-gaming.

And, more to the point, Exalted actively rewards - through character success - the players who master down to minutae every advantage,feat, or charm.  A game with a simpler system doesn't lend itself to this sort of thing.

Which game is more likely to appeal to a player out to wring every possible advantage out of a perfectly-built character through extreme, detail oriented rules mastery, Exalted or FUDGE?

Have you played Exalted?

Quote from: LostscotsmanHave you played Exalted?

Yes.  I was a player in a campaign that lasted about five sessions a few years ago.  We gave up and went back to our then-ongoing Planescape campaign after the GM (and players, but mostly the GM) became frustrated with the system.  I still have many of the books, but at this point they gather dust on a shelf.  I hoped the 2nd edition would solve some of the problems; after reading the core rulebook I decided it hadn't and dropped the idea of volunteering to run it for the group.

Quote from: CessnaI think it is, to some extent.

A simpler, more streamlined game usually does not present players with the same number of opportunities to tweak their character through things like min-maxed pre-figured Diablo II-like "builds" or perfectly designed charm combos.  A game with a simpler system with less to fiddle with is usually more resistant to exploitation or rules-based power-gaming.

And, more to the point, Exalted actively rewards - through character success - the players who master down to minutae every advantage,feat, or charm.  A game with a simpler system doesn't lend itself to this sort of thing.

Which game is more likely to appeal to a player out to wring every possible advantage out of a perfectly-built character through extreme, detail oriented rules mastery, Exalted or FUDGE?

I agree with you, but I also think D&D 3.x is like this, and I like both D&D 3.x and Exalted for being just this kind of fiddly system. On the other hand, I think D&D 3.x does it better than Exalted does, and I like playing D&D 3.x more, at least these days.

D&D definitely does it better.  Moreover D&D has a guideline for challenging the PCs, which Exalted lacks (though it's had aborted attempts at such).

S'why I keep wishing for Exalted D20.

Quote from: RedFoxD&D definitely does it better.  Moreover D&D has a guideline for challenging the PCs, which Exalted lacks (though it's had aborted attempts at such).

White Wolf created one for nWoD, so who knows.

Seanchai

Quote from: RedFoxD&D definitely does it better.  Moreover D&D has a guideline for challenging the PCs, which Exalted lacks (though it's had aborted attempts at such).

S'why I keep wishing for Exalted D20.

D&D has more baseline coherennce, largely due to it being designed as an interlocking system from the ground up, with new feats/spells/classes building on a well defined foundation.

Exalted - in both editions - is more akin to latter day AD&D 2e. It's a revision of a system already built on three or four previous Storyteller incarnations, and as such has baseline assumptions that are at odds with the current designers intent. A good example is damage and soak, which has evolved from the simple, narrative-friendly model of Vampire 1e into Bashing/Lethal/Aggravated, further complicated by rules for Bleeding, Infection, Essence Ping, Piercing, Overwhelming, Hardness, Crippling, Stunning and Knockback effects. And that's before dozens of rule-breaking Charms are added to the mix.

I still have a lot of fondness for the game, and would love to run it again with competent players, but there's no denying the system has accreted rather than grown. The Second Edition should have been approached with the same design mentality as 3.5 - define the core assumptions of play then rewrite the system to support it.

Quote from: SeanchaiWhite Wolf created one for nWoD, so who knows.

Seanchai

They did?

Quote from: hgjsThey did?

The forthcoming Monte Cook's World of Darkness.

There was also a d20 version of Adventure!, but it wasn't too well received IIRC.

Quote from: DrewThe forthcoming Monte Cook's World of Darkness.

There was also a d20 version of Adventure!, but it wasn't too well received IIRC.

I thought he was referring to "a guideline for challenging the PCs."

Quote from: hgjsI thought he was referring to "a guideline for challenging the PCs."

You're right. My mistake.