Spike has it a lot closer then Cessna seems to. Exalted combat didn't seem to take any more time then D&D usually does, but Charm selection is a little weird.

Quote from: Thanatos02Spike has it a lot closer then Cessna seems to. Exalted combat didn't seem to take any more time then D&D usually does, but Charm selection is a little weird.

It seems that every aspect of the game is needlessly over-complicated...

Quote from: CessnaIt seems that every aspect of the game is needlessly over-complicated...

I agree, it is a detailed system that tends towards slow combat even when folk generally understand their characters capabilities.

Prepping for it is also a nightmare if you're building badguys with a variety of Charms.  Ugh.

Quote from: CessnaIt seems that every aspect of the game is needlessly over-complicated...

It seemed that way until I played it, myself. I played a few games, and ran one, and it just never got to the point where it seemed all that bad. A little crunchy on Charm selection (I literally typed 'Feat' without thinking, first. >.>), and there seem to be a few hiccups sometimes (usually because of awkward book formatting), but not too hard in actual play.

I think it boils down to one's idea of complexity and if you've played it at all. Maybe I've been playing it wrong, but none of our play situations look anything at all like the highly-detailed tutorials I've seen on rpg.net which, while helpful once I see what they're talking about, start off nearly as complicated as they can and then assume you already know what they're talking about. If you can play D&D3.x, you can almost certainly play Exalted.

Quote from: Thanatos02If you can play D&D3.x, you can almost certainly play Exalted.

Fair enough...

But why?

The folks in my group have all been playing D&D in one form or another for at least a decade and a half.  Most of us cut our teeth on the old AD&D books.  Sure, 3.x changed things up a lot, but we all are familiar with the system to be able to puzzle out the weird stuff and wing it when we don't want to get into nitpicking detail, without wrecking the game in the process.

I can't say the same about Exalted.  None of us are White Wolf vets.  And, frankly, I can't get anyone in my group to invest the time it would take to become "Exalted proficient."  It just doesn't seem to be worth it, to them or to me.  Why read hundreds of pages and work through all of the weird charms, the new combat system, the strange builds - just to play a game that doesn't really seem all that much better than a pick-up D&D game?

Sure, it looks cool.  But not cool enough for the busy people I game with.

Quote from: CessnaSure, it looks cool.  But not cool enough for the busy people I game with.

exactly.  I looked it over (first version) and made it halfway thru the book, then got sick of the fiction.  

picked it up again months later, telling myself "surely it gets better...i just have to soldier on."  needless to say, it was eventually given to Goodwill or the Women's Shelter.

the people i game with a) hate anime (with the exception of one guys GF), and b) are all old school D&D players who are like "why learn a new system...with anime?"

did i mention i'm not too keen on anime? (or manga or whatever it's called.)

Quote from: CessnaBut why?

Because it's fun?  It's a very imaginative campaign world full of things to do, places to see, problems to solve.  The system is gamey, detailed, and provides a unique feel.

If your group is too busy to learn another game or just prefers D&D then that's totally cool.  My players of the moment refuse to read anything, so I can relate (we only play games I can reasonably teach without anyone having to read).  It seems like a weak argument against Exalted in particular, though.  It's just an argument against any rules sufficiently detailed that they require multiple players to read the rules, purchase copies of the game, or dedicate some time to it.  There are many, many games that fall into that category.

Quote from: C.W.RichesonIt's just an argument against any rules sufficiently detailed that they require multiple players to read the rules, purchase copies of the game, or dedicate some time to it.  There are many, many games that fall into that category.

Including D&D. It just has the benefit that the players in question have already read it.

Quote from: James McMurrayIncluding D&D. It just has the benefit that the players in question have already read it.

Right!

Quote from: C.W.RichesonBecause it's fun?

Or any of the other reasons people watch Bourne movies after having seen Bond movies, eat italian sausage spaghetti sauce after they had roasted garlic spaghettic sause, read Robert Jordan after reading Tad Williams, and so on.

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiOr any of the other reasons people watch Bourne movies after having seen Bond movies, eat italian sausage spaghetti sauce after they had roasted garlic spaghettic sause, read Robert Jordan after reading Tad Williams, and so on.

Seanchai

Having read Robert Jordan and Tad Williams I have to say that Robert Jordan is no Tad Williams.

Of course, other than that there is a significant difference between giving a few hours over to entertainment (movies) where freshness can be a good thing and spending immense amounts of time studying and learning a whole new set of rules once you've mastered a game you already enjoy.

There is a reason we don't see Tiger Woods playing pro basketball.  Or Micheal Jordan returning TO basketball after a stint in Baseball...

without the big names and big money, the same can hold true to mastering an RPG ruleset...

Quote from: C.W.RichesonIf your group is too busy to learn another game or just prefers D&D then that's totally cool.  My players of the moment refuse to read anything, so I can relate (we only play games I can reasonably teach without anyone having to read).  It seems like a weak argument against Exalted in particular, though.  It's just an argument against any rules sufficiently detailed that they require multiple players to read the rules, purchase copies of the game, or dedicate some time to it.  There are many, many games that fall into that category.

That's true.  And I understand that it is entirely a matter of taste.  However, at this point in time, my group - and I - seem to have come to the conclusion that the gain (playing Exalted) isn't worth the expense (time spent learning a completely new system).

YMMV, etc, of course.

Quote from: SpikeHaving read Robert Jordan and Tad Williams I have to say that Robert Jordan is no Tad Williams.

And Italian sausage spaghetti sauce is no roasted garlic spaghettic sauce.

Quote from: SpikeOf course, other than that there is a significant difference between giving a few hours over to entertainment (movies) where freshness can be a good thing and spending immense amounts of time studying and learning a whole new set of rules once you've mastered a game you already enjoy.

Except that's an exaggeration—you don't have to spend "immense amounts of time studying and learning a whole new set of rules."

Let me be clear: I could care less what people outside of my group do. I want to emphasize this point. I *COULD CARE LESS* what people outside my group do. Play the same game for the rest of your life. Use minis. Don't use minis. Roleplay or rollplay—I really don't give a damn.

That said, there are perfectly valid—and when you think about it, immentiently understandable—reasons why a person might recommend trying a new game or a group might decide to do so. It's not bizzare or abnormal. There should really be no need to explain such behavior...

Seanchai

Quote from: SeanchaiAnd Italian sausage spaghetti sauce is no roasted garlic spaghettic sauce.



Except that's an exaggeration—you don't have to spend "immense amounts of time studying and learning a whole new set of rules."

Let me be clear: I could care less what people outside of my group do. I want to emphasize this point. I *COULD CARE LESS* what people outside my group do. Play the same game for the rest of your life. Use minis. Don't use minis. Roleplay or rollplay—I really don't give a damn.

That said, there are perfectly valid—and when you think about it, immentiently understandable—reasons why a person might recommend trying a new game or a group might decide to do so. It's not bizzare or abnormal. There should really be no need to explain such behavior...

Seanchai

What? You've never had Italian Sausage Roasted Garlic Spagetti Sauce?  For shame!!!

 Actually, it's not an exaggeration. Learning to master an entirely new ruleset, especially one like exalted where every charm is practially it's own special rule, DOES take a significant amount of time and energy... particularly if all you get out of it is more of the same gaming you already get.

Sure, I can teach my players Serenity in about 15 minutes. So we can get our Serenity groove on in 15 minutes. I can't say the same thing about GURPS. Which one am I going to have more luck introducing players too if they are already happy playing Traveller?  The one they pick up faster and easier, probably.

Now, I might convince them to take on the challenge of GURPS by pointing out any number of excellent facts about it (does gritty realism damn well, thank you, can be ported over with zero learning curve to just about any genre in a twinkle, powerful ability to self determine abilities across a wider spectrum than almost any game known to man or beast, completeness....)

When we talk about the learning curve of Exalted being a barrier to 'pick up and play' its not just because we made it up, it's real. It's also more complex than that, because let's face it... the rules are not really all that impressive.  Other than encouraging you to think 'godlike power' what does the ruleset provide that medium to high level D&D doesn't?  Nothing but the chance to spend hours and dollars on all new books.


Good on you that it works well for you.    Not true for everyone here, obviously, but you seem to want to pretend that it should.

Quote from: CessnaIt seems that every aspect of the game is needlessly over-complicated...

Hmm, I agree but...

...I think Exalted's biggest sin is that it layers on a tactical Charm-based mechanic into what's a pretty unexciting, un-tactical core combat model.

Say what you want about D&D and AoO's and the like, but as a game it functions and wins because every turn decisions matter.  Imagine how less fun it would be if the tactical model were nigh non-existent and everything depended on the interaction of spells (which everyone has, btw).

My god, the pain.

That's what drives me nuts about Exalted.  I want the core tactical model to be interesting, diverse, and crunchy and the charms to be simple, fun, and flavorful.  It's like the game was designed upside-down, with all the important mechanics in the wrong place.  Think about it:  movement doesn't really matter until Charms enter the picture.  At which point, certain charms demand the careful track of movement and seemingly add their own rules flourishes.  What the fuck?  And that's just one example.

At least as far as I'm concerned.