Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
The game has huge dice pools and a lot of counting.
Any workable Supers system would be fine. You'd need to differentiate between the castes because of the differing power levels, but that's about it. As long as you can throw balance out of the window, then that's fine. I'm partial to PbtA for supers gaming, but as long as your system can handle supers, then that's all that matters.
A lot of systems wouldn't be good for Exalted. Anything that requires escalating dice pools is immediately out because Exalted already does that, and it's horrible that way. Now, if the dice escalate (like Free League's Twilight 2000 as compared to other Year Zero Engine games), then that is better than the numbers of dice going up.
Any game with too many talents to count (many flavors of D&D) also would be bad because it just becomes splatbook/build city... a nightmare for GMs.
The effects should be driven by players instead of some obscure definition in a splatbook.
It just reads as an un-usable book. I know rpg.net got crazy about it for a while, but it was a mess in my opinion.
Godbound Deluxe has some of the splats with serial numbers filed off. You could also replicate Scion with it too, I guess. In fact, the Words and Gifts system could replicate WoD too.
Words is basically a syntactic magic system similar to Ars Magica, but with freeform Words. Gifts are specific individual effects, a subset of Words flexibility, but are easier to use than Words.
Quote from: bromides on July 02, 2022, 08:12:56 PM
The game has huge dice pools and a lot of counting.
Any workable Supers system would be fine. You'd need to differentiate between the castes because of the differing power levels, but that's about it. As long as you can throw balance out of the window, then that's fine. I'm partial to PbtA for supers gaming, but as long as your system can handle supers, then that's all that matters.
A lot of systems wouldn't be good for Exalted. Anything that requires escalating dice pools is immediately out because Exalted already does that, and it's horrible that way. Now, if the dice escalate (like Free League's Twilight 2000 as compared to other Year Zero Engine games), then that is better than the numbers of dice going up.
Any game with too many talents to count (many flavors of D&D) also would be bad because it just becomes splatbook/build city... a nightmare for GMs.
The effects should be driven by players instead of some obscure definition in a splatbook.
It just reads as an un-usable book. I know rpg.net got crazy about it for a while, but it was a mess in my opinion.
That makes sense. And I agree that Exalted reads like shit, 1st through 3rd edition. I know, I read all PDFs. I don't know how people manage to play the game.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it
really, really good.
The trick with making Exalted work as a game is finding a way to tailor the mechanics to the desired end result instead of the desired melange of input options. With that in mind I think the things an overhauled rule set would have to facilitate are:
- Resource management which allows for spectacular feats of stunt-magic, but not all the time and not indefinitely. The most interesting fights in Exalted are the ones that happen after you've expended most of your Essence.
- Combat which is about how one allocates one's resources between attack and defense, rather than about simply generating the maximum possible number of dice. (Personally I'd set things up so that at most you never rolled more than 10 dice.)
- Situations which reward cooperation between varying specialized character types, each with specific niche protection. No one character should be able to take on all foes without vulnerabilities he needs other people to cover for him.
- Ways to manage large groups of mortal forces and organizations, all the way up to realms and kingdoms.
- An underlying structure and logic to the Charm system, which would enable GMs to wing the management of Essence mote expenditure in return for specific bonus types.
- A rule to reinforce the typical pattern of anime combat, which is that characters have to take a certain amount of damage or go through a certain amount of time and effort first before they can break out their heaviest guns.
I would probably start with the WoD system but then overhaul combat and Charms significantly, maybe drawing on elements of The Riddle of Steel's die pool allocation system.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
And why do you think that? Exalted is a non-Tolkienian fantasy based on power and its consequences, not power fantasies. Granted, White Wolf/Onyx Path did muddle it up a bit but it's better than most RPG settings ever made. That's not an easy thing to accomplish.
If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't compare it to
rape.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 12:38:31 AMExalted is a non-Tolkienian fantasy based on power and its consequences, not power fantasies.
Part of the problem is that played as written,
Exalted is essentially structured to be a tragedy rather than a typical RPG rise-to-power scenario: the Great Curse of the Solar Exalted is designed to basically ensure an Exalted will ultimately get screwed by the very Virtues he's most defined by, usually right when it's going to do the most damage. This can feel very frustrating to players used to having more control over their PC's ultimate destiny.
The setting in general has also suffered from the ongoing need to introduce more epic and dangerous threats with each book, so rather like the Forgotten Realms with all its 30th-level NPCs, there are so many destructive and conflicting factions now among the Exalted that newbies can feel very lost about where to enter the game.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 12:56:57 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 12:38:31 AMExalted is a non-Tolkienian fantasy based on power and its consequences, not power fantasies.
Part of the problem is that played as written, Exalted is essentially structured to be a tragedy rather than a typical RPG rise-to-power scenario: the Great Curse of the Solar Exalted is designed to basically ensure an Exalted will ultimately get screwed by the very Virtues he's most defined by, usually right when it's going to do the most damage. This can feel very frustrating to players used to having more control over their PC's ultimate destiny.
The setting in general has also suffered from the ongoing need to introduce more epic and dangerous threats with each book, so rather like the Forgotten Realms with all its 30th-level NPCs, there are so many destructive and conflicting factions now among the Exalted that newbies can feel very lost about where to enter the game.
It can. But as long as you brief everyone at the table about what can happen, and everyone agrees, there's gonna be little to no issue. I will admit it would
really suck if I had to go through Limit Break without being prepared beforehand.
yeah that was a big reason why they had to make 3e. The other big reason was the rules.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 12:38:31 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
And why do you think that? Exalted is a non-Tolkienian fantasy based on power and its consequences, not power fantasies. Granted, White Wolf/Onyx Path did muddle it up a bit but it's better than most RPG settings ever made. That's not an easy thing to accomplish.
If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't compare it to rape.
You need to improve your reading comprehension.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies.
There are a lot better non-Tolkienian fantasy settings out there, Exalted's doesn't even come close to being
really, really good. I would not defile any game system worthy of playing with such a piece of crap as Exalted's setting. Again, Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex.
Double Post
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 01:08:51 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 12:38:31 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
And why do you think that? Exalted is a non-Tolkienian fantasy based on power and its consequences, not power fantasies. Granted, White Wolf/Onyx Path did muddle it up a bit but it's better than most RPG settings ever made. That's not an easy thing to accomplish.
If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't compare it to rape.
You need to improve your reading comprehension.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies.
There are a lot better non-Tolkienian fantasy settings out there, Exalted's doesn't even come close to being really, really good. I would not defile any game system worthy of playing with such a piece of crap as Exalted's setting. Again, Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex.
Improve my reading comprehension how? I understood your post perfectly.
And why would you say Exalted's setting is a piece of crap? What makes you think that? Do tell.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 01:11:51 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 01:08:51 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 12:38:31 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
And why do you think that? Exalted is a non-Tolkienian fantasy based on power and its consequences, not power fantasies. Granted, White Wolf/Onyx Path did muddle it up a bit but it's better than most RPG settings ever made. That's not an easy thing to accomplish.
If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't compare it to rape.
You need to improve your reading comprehension.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies.
There are a lot better non-Tolkienian fantasy settings out there, Exalted's doesn't even come close to being really, really good. I would not defile any game system worthy of playing with such a piece of crap as Exalted's setting. Again, Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex.
Everything you said is wrong.
So you claim.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 01:11:51 AM
Source: I made it the fuck up
That much is obvious.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 01:15:11 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 01:11:51 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 01:08:51 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 12:38:31 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
And why do you think that? Exalted is a non-Tolkienian fantasy based on power and its consequences, not power fantasies. Granted, White Wolf/Onyx Path did muddle it up a bit but it's better than most RPG settings ever made. That's not an easy thing to accomplish.
If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't compare it to rape.
You need to improve your reading comprehension.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies.
There are a lot better non-Tolkienian fantasy settings out there, Exalted's doesn't even come close to being really, really good. I would not defile any game system worthy of playing with such a piece of crap as Exalted's setting. Again, Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex.
Everything you said is wrong.
So you claim.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 01:11:51 AM
Source: I made it the fuck up
That much is obvious.
It's the truth! Because I said so. Don't like it? Kill self.
EDIT: And by kill self I mean kill myself. You. Kill me. Sorry, my head hurts and it's late where I'm at.
Taste in setting relies a lot on the eye of the beholder... so I'm not getting in the middle of that one.
The old White Wolf need to sell you a splatbook for everything can also be rather annoying. It was particularly bad with Exalted, I think... but I don't get that twisted with the setting.
Of course, my view of the Exalted setting is primarily the Solars plus the Dragon-blooded Realm. Everything else doesn't really matter to me, so I ignore it... which is, IMO, how you ought to treat a splatbook-infested setting (not just limited to Exalted since many big game companies do this).
I guess that's a nice thing about Free League. "Forbidden Lands" is very self-contained, with a single hardcover that details the primary setting & campaign ("Raven's Purge"). Yes, there's "The Bitter Reach", but that's a whole separate campaign and separate geography with no cross-over.
If I may suggest a possible resolution here, I think the point of the rape-vs.-sex analogy is to observe that in Exalted it is very easy for in-game conflicts to become about solely who has more power (in terms of who has more Essence, higher stats and a better array of Charms with which to use it) than it is to be about who can actually use what power they have more cleverly in order to overcome superficially stronger foes.
Part of the reason this happens is, ironically, simply because Exalted's rules and setting offer so much in the way of a variety of in-game tactical rules options for players that predicting how to best combine them for most efficient outcome becomes prohibitively difficult, and thus less rewarding in play. (This also applies to GMs as well, who sometimes find that in order to pose any threat to a well-balanced Circle of moderately competent PCs you simply have to, to quote Order of The Stick, "pull a Xykon" -- deploy such an overwhelming degree of force that no array of clever PC combined-asset tactics can prevail against it.)
Thinking out loud as I type this, I might ensure that an Exalted rules redesign had a strong element of "rock-paper-scissors" in it -- not something literally that simple, but something oriented around the idea that there are multiple types of power and each type has its own separate vulnerability, the challenge being to figure out and play the best trump option before getting taken down by someone doing the same to you.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 01:48:06 AM
If I may suggest a possible resolution here, I think the point of the rape-vs.-sex analogy is to observe that in Exalted it is very easy for in-game conflicts to become about solely who has more power (in terms of who has more Essence, higher stats and a better array of Charms with which to use it) than it is to be about who can actually use what power they have more cleverly in order to overcome superficially stronger foes.
Part of the reason this happens is, ironically, simply because Exalted's rules and setting offer so much in the way of a variety of in-game tactical rules options for players that predicting how to best combine them for most efficient outcome becomes prohibitively difficult, and thus less rewarding in play. (This also applies to GMs as well, who sometimes find that in order to pose any threat to a well-balanced Circle of moderately competent PCs you simply have to, to quote Order of The Stick, "pull a Xykon" -- deploy such an overwhelming degree of force that no array of clever PC combined-asset tactics can prevail against it.)
Thinking out loud as I type this, I might ensure that an Exalted rules redesign had a strong element of "rock-paper-scissors" in it -- not something literally that simple, but something oriented around the idea that there are multiple types of power and each type has its own separate vulnerability, the challenge being to figure out and play the best trump option before getting taken down by someone doing the same to you.
I read 'Exalted is to ordinary RPGs what rape is to sex' as an unwarranted insult on one of my favorite settings (in the same way I would say Forgotten Realms is a neckbeard's wet dream. I mean, I don't like Forgotten Realms but I would
never say that to a fan's face, directly), which I did not take kindly to. I overreacted back there, and it was my fault. Should have ignored him.
Anyway, your idea sounds good, although since I never played Exalted's house system (information overload) I can't know for sure.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 01:21:06 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 01:15:11 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 01:11:51 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 01:08:51 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 12:38:31 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
And why do you think that? Exalted is a non-Tolkienian fantasy based on power and its consequences, not power fantasies. Granted, White Wolf/Onyx Path did muddle it up a bit but it's better than most RPG settings ever made. That's not an easy thing to accomplish.
If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't compare it to rape.
You need to improve your reading comprehension.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies.
There are a lot better non-Tolkienian fantasy settings out there, Exalted's doesn't even come close to being really, really good. I would not defile any game system worthy of playing with such a piece of crap as Exalted's setting. Again, Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex.
Everything you said is wrong.
So you claim.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 01:11:51 AM
Source: I made it the fuck up
That much is obvious.
It's the truth! Because I said so. Don't like it? Kill self.
EDIT: And by kill self I mean kill myself. You. Kill me. Sorry, my head hurts and it's late where I'm at.
Kill you? Because you think Exalted is
really, really good?
No. That you believe Exalted is
really, really good is punishment enough.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 02:01:15 AM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 01:48:06 AM
If I may suggest a possible resolution here, I think the point of the rape-vs.-sex analogy is to observe that in Exalted it is very easy for in-game conflicts to become about solely who has more power (in terms of who has more Essence, higher stats and a better array of Charms with which to use it) than it is to be about who can actually use what power they have more cleverly in order to overcome superficially stronger foes.
Part of the reason this happens is, ironically, simply because Exalted's rules and setting offer so much in the way of a variety of in-game tactical rules options for players that predicting how to best combine them for most efficient outcome becomes prohibitively difficult, and thus less rewarding in play. (This also applies to GMs as well, who sometimes find that in order to pose any threat to a well-balanced Circle of moderately competent PCs you simply have to, to quote Order of The Stick, "pull a Xykon" -- deploy such an overwhelming degree of force that no array of clever PC combined-asset tactics can prevail against it.)
Thinking out loud as I type this, I might ensure that an Exalted rules redesign had a strong element of "rock-paper-scissors" in it -- not something literally that simple, but something oriented around the idea that there are multiple types of power and each type has its own separate vulnerability, the challenge being to figure out and play the best trump option before getting taken down by someone doing the same to you.
I read 'Exalted is to ordinary RPGs what rape is to sex' as an unwarranted insult on one of my favorite settings (in the same way I would say Forgotten Realms is a neckbeard's wet dream. I mean, I don't like Forgotten Realms but I would never say that to a fan's face, directly), which I did not take kindly to. I overreacted back there, and it was my fault. Should have ignored him.
Anyway, your idea sounds good, although since I never played Exalted's house system (information overload) I can't know for sure.
Forgettable Realms is almost as bad as the Exalted setting.
How can you opine on Exalted if you have never played it?
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 03:48:20 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 02:01:15 AM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 01:48:06 AM
If I may suggest a possible resolution here, I think the point of the rape-vs.-sex analogy is to observe that in Exalted it is very easy for in-game conflicts to become about solely who has more power (in terms of who has more Essence, higher stats and a better array of Charms with which to use it) than it is to be about who can actually use what power they have more cleverly in order to overcome superficially stronger foes.
Part of the reason this happens is, ironically, simply because Exalted's rules and setting offer so much in the way of a variety of in-game tactical rules options for players that predicting how to best combine them for most efficient outcome becomes prohibitively difficult, and thus less rewarding in play. (This also applies to GMs as well, who sometimes find that in order to pose any threat to a well-balanced Circle of moderately competent PCs you simply have to, to quote Order of The Stick, "pull a Xykon" -- deploy such an overwhelming degree of force that no array of clever PC combined-asset tactics can prevail against it.)
Thinking out loud as I type this, I might ensure that an Exalted rules redesign had a strong element of "rock-paper-scissors" in it -- not something literally that simple, but something oriented around the idea that there are multiple types of power and each type has its own separate vulnerability, the challenge being to figure out and play the best trump option before getting taken down by someone doing the same to you.
I read 'Exalted is to ordinary RPGs what rape is to sex' as an unwarranted insult on one of my favorite settings (in the same way I would say Forgotten Realms is a neckbeard's wet dream. I mean, I don't like Forgotten Realms but I would never say that to a fan's face, directly), which I did not take kindly to. I overreacted back there, and it was my fault. Should have ignored him.
Anyway, your idea sounds good, although since I never played Exalted's house system (information overload) I can't know for sure.
Forgettable Realms is almost as bad as the Exalted setting.
How can you opine on Exalted if you have never played it?
I kinda have to agree with jeff here. Forgotten Realms is a lot like my handle on these forums.
Likewise, I feel like the mechanics of a system tie in pretty strongly to its place within a setting and the setting itself. So I would recommend you maybe try a game if you get the chance, just to see how Exalted plays.
(Would recommend maybe 2e if you like powers and gameplay that match with the lore. As well as Exalted lore in general. Though NGL there's a lot in just the core books, to say nothing of how much can be read via supplements and interpreted as hidden implied lore. Very modular character design, though, so it's easy to build a jack of all trades master of none if you get greedy and try to do everything, and reasonably easy to get confused or lost.)
Welcome to the site, MeganovaStella!
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really f***ing good.
Out of curiosity, what do you like about it so much, specifically? I don't dislike it myself -- although as you may have guessed from my comments I think the game does have weaknesses -- but I am always interested to hear people drill down on the positives. What kind of conflicts and adventures play out better in Creation than anywhere else, as a starting point?
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 11:45:43 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really f***ing good.
Out of curiosity, what do you like about it so much, specifically? I don't dislike it myself -- although as you may have guessed from my comments I think the game does have weaknesses -- but I am always interested to hear people drill down on the positives.
The epic scale of the setting (you can punch gods in the face as a starting Exalt...). The kitchen sink aspect (Norse, pseudo-Aztec, Arabian, Chinese, Persian, giant robots, dinosaurs, and so on). The weirdness, the large scale, the detail, the originality, and so on.
[/quote]
What kind of conflicts and adventures play out better in Creation than anywhere else, as a starting point?
[/quote]
Conflicts based around what the Exalts do with their power, because that is the main conceit of the game. Conflicts based around invading supernatural forces while the Exalts fall to their own hubris (just a thing i threw out there). Underdog Mortal v Exalt/God/Demon/Fair Folk stories. You could technically do the same with a standard DND setting but Exalted makes it so that the PCs (and selected NPCs) are more special, which makes it easier to swallow that these people are going on adventures and saving the region, IMO (because they are supernatural badasses and everyone else is normies).
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 03, 2022, 11:37:56 AM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 03:48:20 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 02:01:15 AM
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 01:48:06 AM
If I may suggest a possible resolution here, I think the point of the rape-vs.-sex analogy is to observe that in Exalted it is very easy for in-game conflicts to become about solely who has more power (in terms of who has more Essence, higher stats and a better array of Charms with which to use it) than it is to be about who can actually use what power they have more cleverly in order to overcome superficially stronger foes.
Part of the reason this happens is, ironically, simply because Exalted's rules and setting offer so much in the way of a variety of in-game tactical rules options for players that predicting how to best combine them for most efficient outcome becomes prohibitively difficult, and thus less rewarding in play. (This also applies to GMs as well, who sometimes find that in order to pose any threat to a well-balanced Circle of moderately competent PCs you simply have to, to quote Order of The Stick, "pull a Xykon" -- deploy such an overwhelming degree of force that no array of clever PC combined-asset tactics can prevail against it.)
Thinking out loud as I type this, I might ensure that an Exalted rules redesign had a strong element of "rock-paper-scissors" in it -- not something literally that simple, but something oriented around the idea that there are multiple types of power and each type has its own separate vulnerability, the challenge being to figure out and play the best trump option before getting taken down by someone doing the same to you.
I read 'Exalted is to ordinary RPGs what rape is to sex' as an unwarranted insult on one of my favorite settings (in the same way I would say Forgotten Realms is a neckbeard's wet dream. I mean, I don't like Forgotten Realms but I would never say that to a fan's face, directly), which I did not take kindly to. I overreacted back there, and it was my fault. Should have ignored him.
Anyway, your idea sounds good, although since I never played Exalted's house system (information overload) I can't know for sure.
Forgettable Realms is almost as bad as the Exalted setting.
How can you opine on Exalted if you have never played it?
I kinda have to agree with jeff here. Forgotten Realms is a lot like my handle on these forums.
Likewise, I feel like the mechanics of a system tie in pretty strongly to its place within a setting and the setting itself. So I would recommend you maybe try a game if you get the chance, just to see how Exalted plays.
(Would recommend maybe 2e if you like powers and gameplay that match with the lore. As well as Exalted lore in general. Though NGL there's a lot in just the core books, to say nothing of how much can be read via supplements and interpreted as hidden implied lore. Very modular character design, though, so it's easy to build a jack of all trades master of none if you get greedy and try to do everything, and reasonably easy to get confused or lost.)
Welcome to the site, MeganovaStella!
Well, I have all the books (via PDF form on my hard drive), I just don't have people to play it. My friends on Discord struggle to learn Godbound, let alone Exalted 2nd.
'Out of curiosity, what do you like about it so much, specifically? I don't dislike it myself -- although as you may have guessed from my comments I think the game does have weaknesses -- but I am always interested to hear people drill down on the positives.'
The epic scale of the setting (you can punch gods in the face as a starting Exalt...). The kitchen sink aspect (Norse, pseudo-Aztec, Arabian, Chinese, Persian, giant robots, dinosaurs, and so on). The weirdness, the large scale, the detail, the originality, and so on.
'What kind of conflicts and adventures play out better in Creation than anywhere else, as a starting point?'
Conflicts based around what the Exalts do with their power, because that is the main conceit of the game. Conflicts based around invading supernatural forces while the Exalts fall to their own hubris (just a thing i threw out there). Underdog Mortal v Exalt/God/Demon/Fair Folk stories. You could technically do the same with a standard DND setting but Exalted makes it so that the PCs (and selected NPCs) are more special, which makes it easier to swallow that these people are going on adventures and saving the region, IMO (because they are supernatural badasses and everyone else is normies).
'I kinda have to agree with jeff here. Forgotten Realms is a lot like my handle on these forums.
Likewise, I feel like the mechanics of a system tie in pretty strongly to its place within a setting and the setting itself. So I would recommend you maybe try a game if you get the chance, just to see how Exalted plays.
(Would recommend maybe 2e if you like powers and gameplay that match with the lore. As well as Exalted lore in general. Though NGL there's a lot in just the core books, to say nothing of how much can be read via supplements and interpreted as hidden implied lore. Very modular character design, though, so it's easy to build a jack of all trades master of none if you get greedy and try to do everything, and reasonably easy to get confused or lost.)
Welcome to the site, MeganovaStella!'
Well, I have all the books (via PDF form on my hard drive), I just don't have people to play it. My friends on Discord struggle to learn Godbound, let alone Exalted 2nd.
Quote feature wasn't working for me.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.
Oh, NappyDazed, you know me so well. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:10:16 PM
Oh, NappyDazed, you know me so well. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
......Seriously? You that insecure?
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 03:48:20 AMHow can you opine on Exalted if you have never played it?
I think Exalted as a setting sucks (for the most part), but I don't think its the 'Equivalent to Rape'. Your being a douche to people that are being genuine and just asking for advice. All fantasy has a degree of escapism to it. Unless your into masochism or just love to bore yourself intentionally. Or are Alan Moore. Are you Alan moore?
As for the system.... Well I think Stephen has it covered in that the main point is: what do you want the mechanics to underpin?
I find Exalted can't decide if it wants to be Anime, Wuxia, or high level dulledry. I think its best to focus on one of those things.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 03, 2022, 02:16:00 PM
I find Exalted can't decide if it wants to be Anime, Wuxia, or high level dulledry. I think its best to focus on one of those things.
You draw a distinction that intrigues me. How would you distinguish between Anime and Wuxia, in the context of designing/finding a game suited to evoking one or the other? (I ask as the typical non-fan of both, to whom they superficially seem to have a lot of overlap.)
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:10:16 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.
Oh, NappyDazed, you know me so well. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
> immediately brings up wifebeating in a thread about a fantasy setting
> after insulting the OP
Don't people get threadbanned for this?
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 03, 2022, 02:39:07 PMYou draw a distinction that intrigues me. How would you distinguish between Anime and Wuxia, in the context of designing/finding a game suited to evoking one or the other? (I ask as the typical non-fan of both, to whom they superficially seem to have a lot of overlap.)
I find Wuxia more mythological and Anime more superheroes. In Myth a crazy thing just happens as a matter of abstraction (Hero God can just move an ocean), while Superheroics are superficially more grounded (Superhero uses a device to teleport ocean away).
It has crossover, but I would say feels different.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:10:16 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.
Oh, NappyDazed, you know me so well. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
> immediately brings up wifebeating in a thread about a fantasy setting
> after insulting the OP
Don't people get threadbanned for this?
Thankfully, not here.
Here, you may post that my behavior towards you has been that of a spoiled child whose head has been shoved so far up my ass that I will never see daylight. You may say that I am bully, a coward, a festering piece of shit, or a leftist democrat whose taste in games is equivalent to sex with animals. You could even call me a Storygamer or a Social Justice Warrior without repercussion.
This is Free Speech at its finest.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:50:43 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:10:16 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.
Oh, NappyDazed, you know me so well. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
> immediately brings up wifebeating in a thread about a fantasy setting
> after insulting the OP
Don't people get threadbanned for this?
Thankfully, not here.
Here, you may post that my behavior towards you has been that of a spoiled child whose head has been shoved so far up my ass that I will never see daylight. You may say that I am bully, a coward, a festering piece of shit, or a leftist democrat whose taste in games is equivalent to sex with animals. You could even call me a Storygamer or a Social Justice Warrior without repercussion.
This is Free Speech at its finest.
so can i call you racial slurs and dox you and then proceed to come to your house irl so i can call you racial slurs there? if this site doesn't allow this it's a coward site tbh
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 03:02:39 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:50:43 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:10:16 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.
Oh, NappyDazed, you know me so well. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
> immediately brings up wifebeating in a thread about a fantasy setting
> after insulting the OP
Don't people get threadbanned for this?
Thankfully, not here.
Here, you may post that my behavior towards you has been that of a spoiled child whose head has been shoved so far up my ass that I will never see daylight. You may say that I am bully, a coward, a festering piece of shit, or a leftist democrat whose taste in games is equivalent to sex with animals. You could even call me a Storygamer or a Social Justice Warrior without repercussion.
This is Free Speech at its finest.
so can i call you racial slurs and dox you and then proceed to come to your house irl so i can call you racial slurs there? if this site doesn't allow this it's a coward site tbh
Ah, therin lies the rub.
Racial slurs will get you banned. Doxxing will also get you banned.
You have to be creative with your insults here, racial slurs and doxxing are for amateurs. This can and should be a rough place, but it is the best site to find out the truths that will help you about a lot of game systems from people with decades of experience.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 03:11:45 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 03:02:39 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:50:43 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:10:16 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.
Oh, NappyDazed, you know me so well. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
> immediately brings up wifebeating in a thread about a fantasy setting
> after insulting the OP
Don't people get threadbanned for this?
Thankfully, not here.
Here, you may post that my behavior towards you has been that of a spoiled child whose head has been shoved so far up my ass that I will never see daylight. You may say that I am bully, a coward, a festering piece of shit, or a leftist democrat whose taste in games is equivalent to sex with animals. You could even call me a Storygamer or a Social Justice Warrior without repercussion.
This is Free Speech at its finest.
so can i call you racial slurs and dox you and then proceed to come to your house irl so i can call you racial slurs there? if this site doesn't allow this it's a coward site tbh
Ah, therin lies the rub.
Racial slurs will get you banned. Doxxing will also get you banned.
You have to be creative with your insults here, racial slurs and doxxing are for amateurs. This can and should be a rough place, but it is the best site to find out the truths that will help you about a lot of game systems from people with decades of experience.
oh okay
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 03:23:04 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 03:11:45 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 03:02:39 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:50:43 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 02:41:45 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 02:10:16 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.
Oh, NappyDazed, you know me so well. Have you stopped beating your wife yet?
> immediately brings up wifebeating in a thread about a fantasy setting
> after insulting the OP
Don't people get threadbanned for this?
Thankfully, not here.
Here, you may post that my behavior towards you has been that of a spoiled child whose head has been shoved so far up my ass that I will never see daylight. You may say that I am bully, a coward, a festering piece of shit, or a leftist democrat whose taste in games is equivalent to sex with animals. You could even call me a Storygamer or a Social Justice Warrior without repercussion.
This is Free Speech at its finest.
so can i call you racial slurs and dox you and then proceed to come to your house irl so i can call you racial slurs there? if this site doesn't allow this it's a coward site tbh
Ah, therin lies the rub.
Racial slurs will get you banned. Doxxing will also get you banned.
You have to be creative with your insults here, racial slurs and doxxing are for amateurs. This can and should be a rough place, but it is the best site to find out the truths that will help you about a lot of game systems from people with decades of experience.
oh okay
You're taking some of this with a lot more grace than I would have, MeganovaStella. Also appreciate that you can recognize the value of Free Speech with minimal, but some, limitations.
Also, I kinda think maybe the racial slurs and doxing rules should be at the top of the site, cuz while irrelevant to me I didn't know them. Though I did know that in the Pundit sub forum he sometimes had banned literal nazis that mucked about inside his house so to speak, I had heard. Thanks for the heads-up, Jeff.
Also, @MeganovaStella, if you like Exalted 2e and are familiar with the basics of mechanics and lore, you may enjoy Keychain of Creation or other webcomics, since there are a fair number for that edition and even 3e. Such things are not always my cup of tea, especially politically, but since you're posting in part because you like the setting...
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 03, 2022, 03:40:05 PM
Also, @MeganovaStella, if you like Exalted 2e and are familiar with the basics of mechanics and lore, you may enjoy Keychain of Creation or other webcomics, since there are a fair number for that edition and even 3e. Such things are not always my cup of tea, especially politically, but since you're posting in part because you like the setting...
heard of that, am reading now
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 03:49:04 PM
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 03, 2022, 03:40:05 PM
Also, @MeganovaStella, if you like Exalted 2e and are familiar with the basics of mechanics and lore, you may enjoy Keychain of Creation or other webcomics, since there are a fair number for that edition and even 3e. Such things are not always my cup of tea, especially politically, but since you're posting in part because you like the setting...
heard of that, am reading now
Noice.
Also, IDK if it would solve the underlying problem of not having a player group that wants to play Exalted 2e or the like with their original mechanics (though I think folks on this thread have done a good job espousing mechanical alternatives that may work for running the setting with your preferred discord group), but...
I do know that some places like Spacebattles and other sites that host digital play by post especially along the lines of voting for an audience-played character's actions, do sometimes or at least did sometimes use Exalted 2e as a mechanical chassis. Though they tended a lot towards setting crossovers at times. Can't think of any specific good ones to recommend, and I didn't really follow those threads and that gaming movement, but I coulda sworn it exists.
Not sure if anything in that area's really on par with say wildbow's Department Sixty-Four or Lausanne campaign, much less IRL games, though I guess you could always look for filmed or live-streamed sessions and stuff like the Critical Role amateur equivalent.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 03:49:04 PMheard of that, am reading now
Yeah, Keychain of Creation in my opinion perfectly executes what Exalted wants to be in my opinion. Outside of ending prematurely on a cliffhanger. :'(
Have you tried playing Godbound? My experiences where mixed.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 03, 2022, 04:04:39 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 03:49:04 PMheard of that, am reading now
Yeah, Keychain of Creation in my opinion perfectly executes what Exalted wants to be in my opinion. Outside of ending prematurely on a cliffhanger. :'(
Have you tried playing Godbound? My experiences where mixed.
I actually am playing in a Godbound discord server. It's okay, haven't gotten into combat yet.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 04:14:04 PMI actually am playing in a Godbound discord server. It's okay, haven't gotten into combat yet.
I like its default setting more then Exalted(I find Kevins settings write for PC interaction much more then White Wolf), and I in theory like the Words as a power structure. But I have found the combat to not work super well and you need creative PCs and a good GM to manage its worldbuilding elements.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 03, 2022, 04:21:20 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 04:14:04 PMI actually am playing in a Godbound discord server. It's okay, haven't gotten into combat yet.
I like its default setting more then Exalted(I find Kevins settings write for PC interaction much more then White Wolf), and I in theory like the Words as a power structure. But I have found the combat to not work super well and you need creative PCs and a good GM to manage its worldbuilding elements.
yeah, i don't like THAC0.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 05:16:49 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 03, 2022, 04:21:20 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 04:14:04 PMI actually am playing in a Godbound discord server. It's okay, haven't gotten into combat yet.
I like its default setting more then Exalted(I find Kevins settings write for PC interaction much more then White Wolf), and I in theory like the Words as a power structure. But I have found the combat to not work super well and you need creative PCs and a good GM to manage its worldbuilding elements.
yeah, i don't like THAC0.
I have an irrational attachment to THACO from Baldur's Gate, Planescape Torment, and Icewind Dale. Also, because its affiliate, AC, was a central part of my first truly codified TTRPG experience, D&D 4e. (Don't pity me! I can see it in your eyes!)
That said, even I will admit that accuracy tends to be swingy and predicated more on random chance than strategy, skill, and sometimes even build. Which to be fair, randomness can also make outcomes more exciting and less inevitable.
Though I feel it also means that attacks are less meaningful when they land, because if they can land more randomly and build is less of a reliable defense, you have to rely on abstractions like HP more than say injury rolls if you still want combat to happen a lot and the PCs to win a lot. Which can alienate players from the outcome of any one roll or the like.
Exalted and other storytelling system dice pools tend to lessen the effects of chance over build and tactics, in my opinion. That said, I'm still a THACO and AC fan when push comes to shove. It's an elegant single-roll system. And they're on top for a reason, arguably.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 05:16:49 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 03, 2022, 04:21:20 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 04:14:04 PMI actually am playing in a Godbound discord server. It's okay, haven't gotten into combat yet.
I like its default setting more then Exalted(I find Kevins settings write for PC interaction much more then White Wolf), and I in theory like the Words as a power structure. But I have found the combat to not work super well and you need creative PCs and a good GM to manage its worldbuilding elements.
yeah, i don't like THAC0.
Actually, if we're trying to recommend potential systems for you to run the Exalted setting with...
What kind of combat systems do you most like? Least like?
What about skill systems?
Power and ability systems?
What's your opinion on social rolls and if social interaction systems should be a thing?
Not trying to overwhelm you with questions, but I do think that with answers we might be able to get a bit closer to your ideal system.
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 03, 2022, 05:47:48 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 05:16:49 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 03, 2022, 04:21:20 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 04:14:04 PMI actually am playing in a Godbound discord server. It's okay, haven't gotten into combat yet.
I like its default setting more then Exalted(I find Kevins settings write for PC interaction much more then White Wolf), and I in theory like the Words as a power structure. But I have found the combat to not work super well and you need creative PCs and a good GM to manage its worldbuilding elements.
yeah, i don't like THAC0.
Actually, if we're trying to recommend potential systems for you to run the Exalted setting with...
What kind of combat systems do you most like? Least like?
What about skill systems?
Power and ability systems?
What's your opinion on social rolls and if social interaction systems should be a thing?
Not trying to overwhelm you with questions, but I do think that with answers we might be able to get a bit closer to your ideal system.
Wait, I'm an idiot. While that may have been a suspected undertone to this thread, it was originally about our own favorite systems being used for Exalted as a thought experiment, right?
In that case, D&D (maybe 3.5 SRD because free things have a special place in my heart, or whatever 2e-setup Planescape Torment used?) fails to capture the vibe. Not modular enough, too class based, and not broad enough powers or ability to individually impact things as much through personal power and competence. Even playing a high level spell caster would be like playing a worse fae who can only do very specific sword and other direct combat shaping. Maybe with a little specialized utility, but again very limited in what can be built and done, and the direct impact of a person's power and competence more broadly upon society.
My work here is done.
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 03, 2022, 05:47:48 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 05:16:49 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 03, 2022, 04:21:20 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 04:14:04 PMI actually am playing in a Godbound discord server. It's okay, haven't gotten into combat yet.
I like its default setting more then Exalted(I find Kevins settings write for PC interaction much more then White Wolf), and I in theory like the Words as a power structure. But I have found the combat to not work super well and you need creative PCs and a good GM to manage its worldbuilding elements.
yeah, i don't like THAC0.
Actually, if we're trying to recommend potential systems for you to run the Exalted setting with...
What kind of combat systems do you most like? Least like?
What about skill systems?
Power and ability systems?
What's your opinion on social rolls and if social interaction systems should be a thing?
Not trying to overwhelm you with questions, but I do think that with answers we might be able to get a bit closer to your ideal system.
The only systems I've ever played are: DND 5e and indie systems from my own discord friends.
re: that spacebattles thing, i do not ever want to go on spacebattles.
I am about to attempt selective quoting for the first time ever, to cut down on flab. Let us pray it goes well. (Though it probably won't.)
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 06:10:52 PM
The only systems I've ever played are: DND 5e and indie systems from my own discord friends.
re: that spacebattles thing, i do not ever want to go on spacebattles.
So, what system parts did you like about 5e and those indie systems? What do you feel was less great?
What is Exalted to you, and what would you expect out of a game set within that setting?
Also, don't worry about sharing an "uneducated" opinion. You don't have to have played a type of system to say you might like it. Feel free to tell us what you might want, even just in general terms. Not to say you need to make up an opinion if you don't currently have one.
Doesn't need to be Spacebattles specifically. Was more just trying to note that there are sites out there with play by post. You could watch or join in if you'd want to try Exalted and/or that's something that broadly might interest you. As well as instances of live-play, filmed games, example play and narratives, and the like out there if you want to search around a bit. Can sometimes be a good way to see what a system or setting seemingly does well, what can be improved, its core, and if it's for you.
Finally, unrelated, let me know if I'm spamming the thread too much. I post when I think I have relevant things to contribute, but that can sometimes still lead to me monopolizing a conversation a bit too much.
Quote from: KindaMeh on July 03, 2022, 06:46:50 PM
I am about to attempt selective quoting for the first time ever, to cut down on flab. Let us pray it goes well. (Though it probably won't.)
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 03, 2022, 06:10:52 PM
The only systems I've ever played are: DND 5e and indie systems from my own discord friends.
re: that spacebattles thing, i do not ever want to go on spacebattles.
So, what system parts did you like about 5e and those indie systems? What do you feel was less great?
What is Exalted to you, and what would you expect out of a game set within that setting?
Also, don't worry about sharing an "uneducated" opinion. You don't have to have played a type of system to say you might like it. Feel free to tell us what you might want, even just in general terms. Not to say you need to make up an opinion if you don't currently have one.
Doesn't need to be Spacebattles specifically. Was more just trying to note that there are sites out there with play by post. You could watch or join in if you'd want to try Exalted and/or that's something that broadly might interest you. As well as instances of live-play, filmed games, example play and narratives, and the like out there if you want to search around a bit. Can sometimes be a good way to see what a system or setting seemingly does well, what can be improved, its core, and if it's for you.
Finally, unrelated, let me know if I'm spamming the thread too much. I post when I think I have relevant things to contribute, but that can sometimes still lead to me monopolizing a conversation a bit too much.
i would rather we continue this in private messages. Also I'll try your recommendations.
There's an Exalted Essence kickstarter out now that is supposed to have a rules light version of the rules with the same setting. I have the pdf, but my interest in Exalted has waned so much since I backed it that I haven't read it over.
Oddly, form what I have read of Exalted, the base rules were more to my liking than the setting. Exalted 2e and Scion 1e are the only systems that use my preferred mechanical initiative system, the tics/battle wheel.
If I were to suggest a different system for the setting, I would go with modified Scion 2e as it handles power scale better and streamlines combat, when it is not being a filthy story-game.
Exalted is one of the best examples of System/Setting disconnect, where the results from playing with the system written for it seem to differ from what the setting fluff suggests should be happening. It also doesn't help that the system itself- in all editions- seems to play pretty well if you have Heroic Mortal PCs but starts breaking down as the power level increases, which is just a little bit of a problem for a game whose premise is that the PC are all supernatural god-kings.
I'd second the advice stated earlier that you should just pick whatever Supers system suits you the best and adapt that.
Personally I liked the Marvel Heroic Roleplaying system that's been updated as Cortex Plus. A free Exalted hack for this called Blood & Fire was released which you might want to look at.
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.
Does he autistically screech about only using The Third Imperium as he sees it and everyone else is a "gross nerd" for being even slightly different just like he does with 1e? Third Imperium is bland pablum with the exact same problem as Forgotten Realms. It's just a world of throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Every single Traveller game I've played used a custom setting and once we used the awesome Babylon 5 splat books. Before you go on about that Jeff, there are rules for that in every single Traveller edition all the way to MT2E and Cepheus Engine.
Just to calm you down Jeff, I like your interpretation of 1E rules. I'm running a 1:1 game using B/X as we speak. And I plan to run my own Sci Fi homebrew rules game built specifically with 1:1 time in mind in the future. I think it works really well. Not because it's "the only way to play DnD". But because it's interesting and offers many opportunities for role playing and mechanical depth. And I do actually reckon using 1:1 Time scale rules for Traveller is a cool idea. But it's not the only one. And it's not for everyone. Which I know you will never accept.
Also Forgotten Realms is shit and you have shit taste. Mystara chads rise up!
Quote from: King Tyranno on July 04, 2022, 06:56:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.
Does he autistically screech about only using The Third Imperium as he sees it and everyone else is a "gross nerd" for being even slightly different just like he does with 1e? Third Imperium is bland pablum with the exact same problem as Forgotten Realms. It's just a world of throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Every single Traveller game I've played used a custom setting and once we used the awesome Babylon 5 splat books. Before you go on about that Jeff, there are rules for that in every single Traveller edition all the way to MT2E and Cepheus Engine.
Just to calm you down Jeff, I like your interpretation of 1E rules. I'm running a 1:1 game using B/X as we speak. And I plan to run my own Sci Fi homebrew rules game built specifically with 1:1 time in mind in the future. I think it works really well. Not because it's "the only way to play DnD". But because it's interesting and offers many opportunities for role playing and mechanical depth. And I do actually reckon using 1:1 Time scale rules for Traveller is a cool idea. But it's not the only one. And it's not for everyone. Which I know you will never accept.
Also Forgotten Realms is shit and you have shit taste. Mystara chads rise up!
While I appreciate the vote of confidence, let's keep this focused on MeganovaStella please.
(Besides, it's NappyDazed, not a tremendous source of witty repartee.)
Quote from: King Tyranno on July 04, 2022, 06:56:04 PM
Quote from: HappyDaze on July 03, 2022, 01:43:46 PM
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 03, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I wouldn't even bother to play it because Exalted's setting is designed for people with unfulfilled power fantasies. Exalted and its setting is to most RPGs what rape is to sex. I do not find it really, really good.
Threadcrapping from the guy that constantly recommends the dullest setting ever made: Traveller. You know, a bunch of spqce retirees wandering through the underdeveloped vast nothingness of the Third Imperium in their space RV. That's Jeffy's fantasy, so don't expect much from him when it comes to settings with any flavor other than 70s nostalgia.
Does he autistically screech about only using The Third Imperium as he sees it and everyone else is a "gross nerd" for being even slightly different just like he does with 1e? Third Imperium is bland pablum with the exact same problem as Forgotten Realms. It's just a world of throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Every single Traveller game I've played used a custom setting and once we used the awesome Babylon 5 splat books. Before you go on about that Jeff, there are rules for that in every single Traveller edition all the way to MT2E and Cepheus Engine.
Just to calm you down Jeff, I like your interpretation of 1E rules. I'm running a 1:1 game using B/X as we speak. And I plan to run my own Sci Fi homebrew rules game built specifically with 1:1 time in mind in the future. I think it works really well. Not because it's "the only way to play DnD". But because it's interesting and offers many opportunities for role playing and mechanical depth. And I do actually reckon using 1:1 Time scale rules for Traveller is a cool idea. But it's not the only one. And it's not for everyone. Which I know you will never accept.
Also Forgotten Realms is shit and you have shit taste. Mystara chads rise up!
unironically based
Quote from: King Tyranno on July 04, 2022, 06:56:04 PM
Also Forgotten Realms is shit and you have shit taste. Mystara chads rise up!
Mystara is what you get when you throw a kitchen sink at a kitchen sink, and it throws another kitchen sink right back.
Why the hate for Kitchen sinks? Both literal and figurative.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 04, 2022, 09:07:53 PM
Why the hate for Kitchen sinks? Both literal and figurative.
when kitchen sink not good (i.e: not exalted /s), it feels lazy like you just threw whatever you wanted in without respect for the conceits of the world. it also causes it to lose its identity. an easy way to avoid this is add ONE type of supernatural thing and try to adapt your cultures around that, AND encourage GMs to zoom on a section of the world to play in. Real-world medieval Earth is a kitchen sink setting, but no sane DM would make a game trying to incorporate all the cultures.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 04, 2022, 09:26:54 PMWhen kitchen sink not good (i.e: not exalted /s), it feels lazy like you just threw whatever you wanted in without respect for the conceits of the world.
World coherency is overrated. Unless the players are playing at national level of power, why does the 1700s french country exist next too 1300s but with steampunk england will come up nearly never. I only ever had a player nitpick the specifics about my guns and the kinds of ships I was using because he was very familiar with the terminology.
Now I agree too much stuff can distill a settings feel. If there are 300 different kinds of magic, that generally feels less interesting then 1 or 2.
Also I don't really find Exalted a kitchen sink.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 04, 2022, 10:47:12 PM
World coherency is overrated. Unless the players are playing at national level of power, why does the 1700s french country exist next too 1300s but with steampunk england will come up nearly never.
If one will not travel between 1300's Steampunk England and 1700's Historic France, why do the two need to exist in the same world. The steampunk setting and the historic setting would both benefit form having from having space wasted on the other devoted more development from the former. Jack of all trades, master of none; a little bit of everything is not enough of anything.
Quote from: Wisithir on July 05, 2022, 07:34:29 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 04, 2022, 10:47:12 PM
World coherency is overrated. Unless the players are playing at national level of power, why does the 1700s french country exist next too 1300s but with steampunk england will come up nearly never.
If one will not travel between 1300's Steampunk England and 1700's Historic France, why do the two need to exist in the same world. The steampunk setting and the historic setting would both benefit form having from having space wasted on the other devoted more development from the former. Jack of all trades, master of none; a little bit of everything is not enough of anything.
exactly
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 04, 2022, 10:47:12 PM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 04, 2022, 09:26:54 PMWhen kitchen sink not good (i.e: not exalted /s), it feels lazy like you just threw whatever you wanted in without respect for the conceits of the world.
World coherency is overrated.
It depends how much explanation is put into the
why of the non-coherence as well as the
how, and how much acknowledgement is given to the logical
what then. Having two countries with radically different technology levels and/or social structures in the same campaign isn't necessarily incoherent; if the cause of this difference is never explained, or the differences don't
make any difference in how the nations interact with each other, or the situations they create for the PCs, then it will
feel incoherent in practice.
It often comes in for slanging on this site, but
Blue Rose's world of Aldea is actually a reasonably good example of this in action: the two major Good Guy realms of Aldis and Jarzon are radically different in many ways, but the source of those differences is explained in the backstory, the potential effect of those differences on the PCs' situations and careers is noted, and actions to address those differences are suggested as adventure and campaign seeds, so the world in general feels like a single coherent setting. One thing
Exalted may have fallen down on is that I don't recall how well it addresses the international
status quo on a state/political level: what are the natural alliances against the decaying Empire of the Dragon-Blooded, for example? What kingdoms would be easier for a rising Solar Exalt to conquer, and so on? If every nation and faction was just described of itself without taking its history, geopolitics and historical alliances into account, it would be easier for the whole thing to feel like a tossed salad of inconsistent mosaic pieces.
Quote from: Wisithir on July 05, 2022, 07:34:29 PMIf one will not travel between 1300's Steampunk England and 1700's Historic France, why do the two need to exist in the same world.
Because its fun. Because things can exist under the same sort of umbrella of logic without needing a whole new setting each time with its own foibles and such. And you can have the two interact and its kitche and entertaining.
Because generally, all fake countries lack depth. You can't compete with reality for depth of culture and real differentiating minutia. So fantastical worlds compensate by upping the archetypical. Egypt-Land, Brazil-Land, Elf-Land (Also known as Denmark-Land).
This is unavoidable for clear impressions of stuff thats mostly gonna be add-libbed during play. When people go for 'Deep' instead of a veriety of shallow, they generally just get shallow sameyness. Because you can't work up the same level of depth as the real world.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 05, 2022, 08:07:59 PMThen it will feel incoherent in practice.
A setting for a game isn't the same as a setting for a book. The coherency of a world is 99.99999% dependant on the running GM. Stuff that seems out of place (or deep and well thought out) while reading feels completly different in play.
If early Roman Republican architecture is described for a area that was more aiming for a mid Byzantium period the response from the players won't be:
'Why does this architectural stylings exist so alien to the native culture? Didn't you say this settlement was constrcuted recently after the conquest of the Zubalesque horde in the late Tzuma period of 1772BD? Phah flimshaw! My suspension is shattered! I am to qiut the game!'
they will say
'Mm...So what about that Dragon?'
Not only that but they won't even care or apreciate what the 'deep' part even is unless one of them is really into reading lorebooks.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 05, 2022, 10:19:48 PM(G)enerally, all fake countries lack depth. You can't compete with reality for depth of culture and real differentiating minutia. So fantastical worlds compensate by upping the archetypical.
Granted. But you can still muck things up if those archetypes clash too badly; see below.
QuoteThe coherency of a world is 99.99999% dependent on the running GM. Stuff that seems out of place (or deep and well thought out) while reading feels completly different in play. If early Roman Republican architecture is described for a area that was more aiming for a mid Byzantium period the response from the players won't be: 'Why does this architectural stylings exist so alien to the native culture? Didn't you say this settlement was constrcuted recently after the conquest of the Zubalesque horde in the late Tzuma period of 1772BD? Phah flimshaw! My suspension is shattered! I am to quit the game!'
You underestimate the anal-retentiveness of players determined not to be taken off guard or miss an apparent clue, especially when the overriding assumption is always, "If the GM is bothering to mention it, it's something important." I've never gamed with anybody who'd quit a game on spotting such an apparent contradiction, but I
have gamed with players who'd quite willingly spend ridiculous amounts of time trying to figure out what it meant.
Going back to Steampunk England next to Mediaeval France, the simplest incoherence a GM of such a game would have to address is, "Why not buy our weapons and gear in England and then go kick butt in France? And come to think of it, why hasn't England in general already done this?"
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 05, 2022, 11:55:52 PMYou underestimate the anal-retentiveness of players determined not to be taken off guard or miss an apparent clue, especially when the overriding assumption is always, "If the GM is bothering to mention it, it's something important."
Happens independantly of setting.
QuoteGoing back to Steampunk England next to Mediaeval France, the simplest incoherence a GM of such a game would have to address is, "Why not buy our weapons and gear in England and then go kick butt in France? And come to think of it, why hasn't England in general already done this?"
Thats a game mechanics thing. 'Wait but how can X thing not fail against steampunktech?' is the role of the settings writer. Thats independant of it being a kitchen sink or not. This sort of thing can exist even in the most homogenous setting.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 06, 2022, 12:37:59 AM
Happens independently of setting.
True, but one can minimize the excuses that the setting in particular gives for it. To acknowledge you can't eliminate a problem is not the same as to say you can't meaningfully reduce it.
QuoteThat's a game mechanics thing. 'Wait but how can X thing not fail against steampunktech?' is the role of the settings writer.
Exactly. And the more heterogeneous elements that are tossed into a setting without thinking through the logical implications of how they would interact (which is the definition I'm using for "kitchen sink"), the more such mechanics questions are likely to arise.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 06, 2022, 11:57:24 AM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 06, 2022, 12:37:59 AM
Happens independently of setting.
True, but one can minimize the excuses that the setting in particular gives for it. To acknowledge you can't eliminate a problem is not the same as to say you can't meaningfully reduce it.
QuoteThat's a game mechanics thing. 'Wait but how can X thing not fail against steampunktech?' is the role of the settings writer.
Exactly. And the more heterogeneous elements that are tossed into a setting without thinking through the logical implications of how they would interact (which is the definition I'm using for "kitchen sink"), the more such mechanics questions are likely to arise.
Speaking as the one mentioned who had issues, yes, such things can get bad enough that you literally cannot envision the setting. When you have late 19th Century steam ships (screw propulsion, turret-based weaponry) and 15th Century caravels (and frigates said to be the greatest of all warships of the time) and melee weapons and bows supposed to compete with late 19th Century revolvers and repeating rifles... yeah, for me, the setting just completely broke down as something I could coherently envision.
We finally found something workable by pegging baseline technology at early 18th Century; squarely in the Age of Sail, but with the earliest steamboats starting to appear. Similarly, firearms would predominantly be flintlocks with variations like the pepperbox as attempts at multi-shot weaponry... keeping sword and bow still competitive with the firearms of the day (particularly the bow's rapid fire capability in an era of declining armor).
Nailing down a time period (with outliers; throwbacks in primitive locales, somewhat anachronistic future elements available to artificers and the like) did wonders for me being able to try and grokk how elements interacted; 1800 Techno-magic England vs. 1700 Druid-magic France is something that didn't break my brain in the way that 1890's England vs. 1450's France does.
That said, I could see more radical differences working if your setting had something like "reality zones" where certain things didn't work and others did... if passing into the 1300 France zone caused most gunpowder firearms to fizzle and steam engines to fizzle out then putting the two into the same setting could work.
Similarly, a very high magic 1300 France where magic largely subbed for technology (but was incompatible with technology) vs. a more technologically advanced area would be something I could grokk; you have two mutually exclusive tech bases each with their pros and cons and different societies have different preferences between them. The French may not have steam engines, but their harnessed water elementals allow their ships to match speeds and their ironwood enchanted hulls are as good as the steel plate of the steam ships and they have enough trained war wizards to substitute for cannons.
Which basically goes back to your comment that consideration of how the interaction of the various parts added to a kitchen sink setting are important to how well it hangs together.
As an example from own setting, my decision to allow various flying creatures as PCs led in turn to both other means of flight (various flying beasts, airships and magic), but also into monster design (ranged attacks are extremely common because flyers are common) and PC starting gear (most of the default starting equipment packages include a ranged weapon). Islands and castles that float in the sky are similarly things which exist.
Flight allows bypassing certain threats (ex. hazardous terrain en route to a ruin), while increasing others (everyone in the ruin can see you coming from miles away and probably has ranged attacks, if not flying assets of its own they can use to intercept you).
But, I also mitigate some of flight's advantages mechanically... requiring greater concentration for flight makes certain tasks while flying difficult without burning resources (flight in combat being more useful for repositioning than remaining out of reach at lower levels, particularly when ranged attacks and indoor encounters make outright evasion of attacks difficult or even impossible).
Sure, if you want to hit PC's with various overland encounters such access to flight might be a complication; on the other hand flight is usually tiring so you have to land periodically anyway (if you want them to find something in the ground), flying threats and ranged attackers exist (so combat encounters aren't rules out) and the different vantage point can let you reveal sidequests even more easily (in a way that allows heroic PCs to feel more proactive... you don't just stumble onto a burning homestead in the wild; you see the smoke rising in the distance and what PC isn't going to look into that?
The point is, flight could have been something very unbalanced and disruptive, but by considering the ways it could affect things and leaning into them it added all sort of interesting things to the setting (because if you want your setting to allow PC dragons, saying "oh, but they can't actually fly until they're level 10" actually feels more lame to me than just not having dragon PCs at all).
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I don't think anyone has brought up the two Qwixalted-Exalted hacks yet...
Some guys took the early d6 based Exalted quickstart rules and expanded them into complete RPG's with far less rules crunch.
You have Qwixalted Diaklave which runs about 55 pages, and Qwixalted Jarvis which runs about 32.
They are still available for download free on the net with a bit of google-fu.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 06, 2022, 01:09:52 PMAs an example from own setting, my decision to allow various flying creatures as PCs led in turn to both other means of flight (various flying beasts, airships and magic), but also into monster design (ranged attacks are extremely common because flyers are common) and PC starting gear (most of the default starting equipment packages include a ranged weapon). Islands and castles that float in the sky are similarly things which exist.
And in a countertwist I found myself finding the commonality of flight in your setting to not really take into account the kind of world that would develop from it.
But that to me speaks to the impossibility of 100%-ing a setting that won't be incongrous to SOMEBODY. Some people throw a fit if there is any sort of magic, or isn't 1600s England.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 06, 2022, 02:27:34 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 06, 2022, 01:09:52 PMAs an example from own setting, my decision to allow various flying creatures as PCs led in turn to both other means of flight (various flying beasts, airships and magic), but also into monster design (ranged attacks are extremely common because flyers are common) and PC starting gear (most of the default starting equipment packages include a ranged weapon). Islands and castles that float in the sky are similarly things which exist.
And in a countertwist I found myself finding the commonality of flight in your setting to not really take into account the kind of world that would develop from it.
But that to me speaks to the impossibility of 100%-ing a setting that won't be incongrous to SOMEBODY. Some people throw a fit if there is any sort of magic, or isn't 1600s England.
I'll own that shortcoming. Its one of the elements that didn't transfer well from the in-play setting to its written form (I only had so many pages and had to prioritize; a detailed campaign world in the core books was definitely one of the hits there) and will probably need to be addressed inside a dedicated setting book as it is very much a feel thing. In the GM's Guide itself the primary setting examples are found in the Blackspire city highlights as part of a default setting;
- The Rookery: the top floor of Castle Blackspire is where you can obtain stabling for flying mounts as well as buy and sell them. Half of the top floor is open to the public while the other half is reserved to the Black Guard's wyvern mounts.
- The Crow's Nest: a watch tower that rises another five stories above the Rookery and offers a full 360 degree view of the entire Free Cities region (the horizon is about 21 miles on a clear day, just a bit further than the farthest fortified town from the city of Blackspire). More importantly, the signal towers of the smaller cities of the realm can be seen and, if a warning fire is lit, the Black Guard on their wyverns can reach even the most distant location of the Free Cities in just 30 minutes.
- Aspiro Aviation and the Blackspire Skyport: The floor beneath the Rookery has been fitted with gantries to allow airships to dock. They're not something that shows up every day, but there's typically 1d4-1 airships moored there on any given day. Aspiro Aviation is a local airship crew (a family of Sylphs) who takes charter flights (and as a local operation can be booked in advance... whereas it's luck of the draw to charter ones who just happen to be there that day; there's a fairly regular one running cargo to and from Riverhold that's willing to make a slight detour to drop or pick up from Stonepoint Monastery, but any others are probably from much more distant lands).I only really had to room to give an overview of a single region and really detail a single realm and single city within that realm with any detail in presenting examples for GM's to use in creating their own settings. Had I an infinite page count I could have included more examples in other locations, but I wanted affordable print-on-demand core books and had a LOT of other material to cover.*
So, with luck, as I transition from the rule books (the options of which I intend to NOT bloat with later supplements) and into setting/adventure books hopefully more of the ways in which flight can play a role in society will meet your approval.
* In terms of design I strongly favor the idea that a game's rules are its toolbox and its better to have a tool and not need it, than to need a tool and not have it. If you don't want starting PCs to have flight then its much easier for a GM to say "don't pick any flight options for your characters" or "you can only play humans, elves, dwarves and gnomes for this game" than it is for a GM who wants to run a campaign where everyone is a dragon to have to invent their own dragon species and hope its not broken relative to the rest of the game's rules.
I'll take the hit of insufficiently described cultural dimensions to flight in exchange for players not needing to wait until supplement X comes out before they can actually play the character type they want (and might not be allowed even then because "core only" is a thing I've seen commonly enforced). 4E's botched launch missing several expected traditional races and classes is not a model I want to emulate (conversely if the only options I included in my core were ones you could get from any edition of D&D, why would I bother with my own system/setting?).
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 06, 2022, 06:58:18 PMI'll own that shortcoming.
Not everything can be for everybody. Flight bothered me, ship make bothered you. The only way to avoid this altogether is something like Ace Combat with its 'Like reality but very slightly different' angle. Which is dull as the only thing that can happen.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 06, 2022, 09:22:53 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 06, 2022, 06:58:18 PMI'll own that shortcoming.
Not everything can be for everybody. Flight bothered me, ship make bothered you. The only way to avoid this altogether is something like Ace Combat with its 'Like reality but very slightly different' angle. Which is dull as the only thing that can happen.
True. But my theory is that it is also very easy for someone to drop discrete elements (ex. particular powers in a superhero game, particular spells in fantasy) that bother them from a larger framework without breaking something vs. trying to add elements to a framework and making sure they don't accidentally break something else.
You could run a game using my system while banning all PC flight options and be assured that everything would work fine; in terms of balance its no different than a game where flight options were available but no one happened to select them. Just because an option is there doesn't require it to be used and GMs are free to outright remove any elements they don't like from their games. The entire first chapter of my GM's Guide is about deciding what elements you want to include and whether you want to remove any character options to fit your vision.
As a further counter example, my default setting makes Astral Servitors, Necromancers and Diabolists (demon summoners) completely unavailable to PCs because they are fundamentally at odds with the heroic assumptions (in the default cosmology Servitors lack free will while the other two involve chaining your free will to a hostile force that would essentially run the character instead of the player). While I could have just left my mechanical systems at that because that fits my own moral preferences, I opted to include both in the GM's Guide as fully PC-balanced options because the GM may want to run a setting with a different underlying cosmology that my default and I don't want them to have to guess at what traits and options would be balanced with the other player character options.
Basically, I feel its better to have options (even ones I'd never use myself) and then disallow those I don't want to use from a particular campaign, than to just leave options out and hope someone who wants them would be able to come up with a viable system to enact it.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 06, 2022, 06:58:18 PMIn terms of design I strongly favor the idea that a game's rules are its toolbox and its better to have a tool and not need it, than to need a tool and not have it. If you don't want starting PCs to have flight then its much easier for a GM to say "don't pick any flight options for your characters" or "you can only play humans, elves, dwarves and gnomes for this game" than it is for a GM who wants to run a campaign where everyone is a dragon to have to invent their own dragon species and hope its not broken relative to the rest of the game's rules.
Have you ever run into the experience of players objecting to stuff like this on the grounds of "if it's in the rules it should be allowable in the game"? (One of the things I was intrigued by in the design of the
Eberron setting was the explicit adoption of this as a principle, where Keith Baker says in the prologue, "If it's in the books, it has a place in Eberron.")
The
Exalted setting might be easier to manage if some of the later books were deliberately excluded, but for a lot of gamers that approach goes against the whole point of continuing to expand the setting.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 06, 2022, 10:46:01 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 06, 2022, 06:58:18 PMIn terms of design I strongly favor the idea that a game's rules are its toolbox and its better to have a tool and not need it, than to need a tool and not have it. If you don't want starting PCs to have flight then its much easier for a GM to say "don't pick any flight options for your characters" or "you can only play humans, elves, dwarves and gnomes for this game" than it is for a GM who wants to run a campaign where everyone is a dragon to have to invent their own dragon species and hope its not broken relative to the rest of the game's rules.
Have you ever run into the experience of players objecting to stuff like this on the grounds of "if it's in the rules it should be allowable in the game"? (One of the things I was intrigued by in the design of the Eberron setting was the explicit adoption of this as a principle, where Keith Baker says in the prologue, "If it's in the books, it has a place in Eberron.")
The Exalted setting might be easier to manage if some of the later books were deliberately excluded, but for a lot of gamers that approach goes against the whole point of continuing to expand the setting.
what later books in specific? the more cosmic themed books?
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 06, 2022, 11:45:07 PM
what later books in specific? the more cosmic themed books?
Hard to pick a "cutoff point", as it were, but I always thought going beyond the basic five groups of Exalted (Solar, Lunar, Terrestrial, Sidereal and Abyssal) was where things started getting a little overstuffed. I also don't know that a separate book for each Caste or Aspect was necessary. (But of course, there is always the element of making money, which it's hard to blame a company for wanting to do.)
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 06, 2022, 10:22:19 PMYou could run a game using my system while banning all PC flight options and be assured that everything would work fine; in terms of balance its no different than a game where flight options were available but no one happened to select them.
We aren't discussing mechanics, but setting elements. If the setting is written around flight being available, then removing it conceptually is pretty dange difficult.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 06, 2022, 10:46:01 PM
Have you ever run into the experience of players objecting to stuff like this on the grounds of "if it's in the rules it should be allowable in the game"? (One of the things I was intrigued by in the design of the Eberron setting was the explicit adoption of this as a principle, where Keith Baker says in the prologue, "If it's in the books, it has a place in Eberron.")
Mostly players seem to go along with what the GM wants; how easily they go along depends on how well the GM explains their vision. One of the first actual campaign uses of my system was to continue a standard 4E campaign with all its assumptions and limits. Another was a human only/no spellcasters/limited background campaign set in the slums of a major urban area.
The first struggled a bit as players started wanting to pull in system elements that didn't quite fit 4E proper (continuing the prior campaign isn't that strong a theme), but the second was an easy sell as the theme of the PCs as a street gang protecting their turf made the limits very understandable for players.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 07, 2022, 01:52:52 AM
We aren't discussing mechanics, but setting elements. If the setting is written around flight being available, then removing it conceptually is pretty dange difficult.
Can D&D only be played in Forgotten Realms or another official TSR/WotC setting? Must Pathfinder only be used to run in Goleron? Can Mekton II only be played on the world of Argol (despite deliberately being a "build your own giant robot anime setting") because it is the only location explicitly covered? Do you always port in the metaphysics of the Apocalypse when you want werewolves in your Vampire the Masquerade game?
My setting is deliberately minimalistic in the vein of 4E's Nentir Vale; a single region just big enough for a new or uninspired GM to set a campaign in, but with most of the GM's Guide (outside of the monster section which is, admittedly 2/3 of the book by itself) devoted to helping the GM develop their own campaign; first in expectations/theme (serious to silly, heroic to horror, dark ages to science fantasy and do you want to include all the character options or limit them for thematic purpose, optional rules for zero-to-hero and random character generation, different thresholds for death/availability of resurrection), then into creating your own setting with its own history and elements (with bits of the default region covered as examples) and creating your own cast.
The expectation is that the GM will use what they want and discard the rest, because that's what I've always seen GM's do. A lot of new ones will choose to use everything in default while not touching the "create your own setting" elements at all. That default setting is a fairly well considered kitchen sink, but even it has elements banned to PCs that only found in the GM's Guide with the guidance that they can be made available to PCs if the setting they wish to run has different cosmological assumptions than the default (ex. in my default setting necromancy is actively and malevolently evil and eats the soul/free will of any who use it so it's banned from PC use. In a more D&D-like setting it's just another form of magic so the GM might choose to make it available to PCs).
In short, I'd argue that my system has very few actual assumptions related to anything (be it flight or necromancy) in the level of detail where they would be difficult to remove. Remove Aspiro Aviation, put the wyvern guard and elven archons on horseback and don't reference the ravenkin who live elsewhere in the region and say there are no unmutilated goblins left and you've knocked all the flight-related elements out of the default setting.
I think you see flight as more potent and pervasive than it actually is because you deem even the prospect of it as so unbalancingly powerful. You've yet to actually play a session of the game to find out if it actually is though. The fact that, even after experiencing flight options, my powergamer playtesters (the best kind for finding broken mechanics in my experience) have not reworked their concepts around flight speaks to flight not actually being as overwhelming an advantage as you suppose it to be.
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I'm bored at work, so here is this.
You'll have to use Traveller 5 and tech level will be around 20 (no jump drive, but NAFAL), but you get to do an epic game setting that encompasses whole galaxies. The closest thing to Alastair Reynolds book
House of Suns that you can get. It is science fiction, but of such an epic scale as to be almost unimaginable.
Case in point, if a star is about to go supernova, one of the houses builds an encapsulation sphere out of abandoned ringworlds from a previous civilization. Epic enough for you?
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 07, 2022, 09:42:09 AMCan D&D only be played in Forgotten Realms or another official TSR/WotC setting?
I mean CONCEPTUALLY, ignoring PC involvement. I am not talking about build choices. A setting where flight was common would have completly different wars and power higharchies. Im not discussing the mechanical elements you added (such as not allowing for bombardment), that exist purely mechanically to not make flight overpowered.
Its like if a setting said that everybody has miniature mass producable nuke launchers. My point is about it conceptually, not that mechanically in game it does 1d6 damage and radiation sickness is only a -2 debuff for 1 minute.
Quote from: jeff37923 on July 07, 2022, 11:33:35 AM
Quote from: MeganovaStella on July 02, 2022, 07:34:41 PM
Exalted's setting, Creation, is really fucking good. Really, really good. But the system sucks ass!
So, I ask a question. What if...Exalted's setting used your favorite system? Would it be better to play? Worse? Do tell!
I'm bored at work, so here is this.
You'll have to use Traveller 5 and tech level will be around 20 (no jump drive, but NAFAL), but you get to do an epic game setting that encompasses whole galaxies. The closest thing to Alastair Reynolds book House of Suns that you can get. It is science fiction, but of such an epic scale as to be almost unimaginable.
Case in point, if a star is about to go supernova, one of the houses builds an encapsulation sphere out of abandoned ringworlds from a previous civilization. Epic enough for you?
yes
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 07, 2022, 12:36:18 PM
Im not discussing the mechanical elements you added (such as not allowing for bombardment), that exist purely mechanically to not make flight overpowered.
And I'm saying once you have dragons as monsters your setting already has all the presence of and need to defend against flight capable opponents required to fundamentally alter the setting whether PCs also have flight or not.
Any setting with known to exist dragons (or manticores or wyverns or any other flying monster that preys on humans or their livestock) has either already made all the necessary changes to the setting needed to counterbalance flight, is utterly stupid for not making those changes or is subject to the rule of their dragon overlord because such changes were impossible to make.
Denying flight options to PCs doesn't change that. If you want a society unaffected by flight then any serious talk of a giant flying firebreathing lizard living in the mountains needs to be regarded by everyone as the talk of a crazy person akin to how the townsfolk of Passamoquotty treated Lampie in Pete's Dragon (open derision, accusations of drunken hallucinations and physical abuse as they kick him out of the tavern)... not putting out a notice for adventurers needed.
Also, not sure what you mean about "no bombardment" since I know any airship of sufficient size could carry siege engines and the Archons in the monster section specifically carry flachettes for dropping on ground forces.
Maybe you mean the rule element that low-level PCs need to devote their full attention to flying when they're doing so (it becomes more natural as you go up in level)?
If so, yes, enabling the basic flight one would expect if you're allowing a PC birdman or dragon while making it difficult to use as much beyond enhanced jumping in a combat situation (until they have more experience under their belts) is indeed a balancing element to allow flight to be available to starting creatures who sensibly should have flight without overshadowing other players (because "you can't make the character concept you want until everyone is higher level and the campaign half over" is lame).
QuoteIts like if a setting said that everybody has miniature mass producable nuke launchers. My point is about it conceptually, not that mechanically in game it does 1d6 damage and radiation sickness is only a -2 debuff for 1 minute.
Except NOT everyone has flight. Flight requires either a non-human species (both canonical beastmen with flight are small creatures; 20-40 lb.), magic or a very fragile lift envelope (and probably some magic on top of that). Flying mounts are very expensive to feed; four times more to feed in a day than a commoner can expect to earn in a day. An airship could burn through day's or even week's wages of a commoner for every hour it's steam engine is in use.
Of the default region's population of 127,000 people... fewer than 100 have access to flight; almost are are elite military forces of a few dozen per realm. The regular armed forces of each realm are easily ten to twenty times that size and there are at least as many combat spellcasters equal to the number of flyers in a realm's armies; each capable of lobbing fire or lightning or force missiles at airborne targets at-will.
That's just not going to sufficiently change heirarchies or the way wars are fought any further than the presence of combat magic in general would. The rulers are still the ones with the best toys and in a world of magic that means magic toys. But there aren't enough magic toys to go around so the bulk of military forces are the same old infantry, cavalry and archers you'd expect, though with spellcasters generally replacing both artillery and supplying anti-air capability to the force.
Flyers used for scouting? Yes. As a Rapid Reaction Force against minor incursions? Sure. As Special Forces? Definitely. As the backbone of a realm's army? Ridiculous given the cost to purchase and maintain. When even the smallest non-combat airship costs more than a commoner will earn in their entire adult life then air travel is not something anyone but the elite of the elite will be partaking in.
I mean, sure, if you wanted to as GM you COULD give everyone magic flight and and argue that this completely changes how the setting would have to function plausibly; but that isn't the actual setting presented where flight is a "point one percenter" luxury, not something everyone has access to.
I leave it to the readers to decide whether my interpretation of the effects of flight and its effects on the setting relative to its rarity are sensible, but I needed to respond because I feel you gravely misrepresented the prevalence of flight in the setting and how its presence affects the setting.
* * * *
As relates to the topic at hand, you'd need to decide what counts as what in converting the different types of Exalted, but celstial creatures, fallen and otherwise, are available as PCs in my setting out of the box and it wouldn't take much mook scaling to go from the default "big damned heroes" rules to "demigods among mortals" as the level for starting PCs and go up from there. The rules cover wide varieties of natural and supernatural terrain to reflect any realms you'd find in Exalted and opponent design tools included in the GM's Guide would make it easy to convert critters from Exalted into my system if there was no obvious analogue.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 07, 2022, 11:34:12 PMAnd I'm saying once you have dragons as monsters your setting already has all the presence of and need to defend against flight capable opponents required to fundamentally alter the setting whether PCs also have flight or not.
"If you have a 1-5 demons in your setting SOMEWHERE, then the need to defend against demons all the time everywhere is about the same"
Anyway I think this all feeds into a greater point that more consistency or such is good for a world, but it can never be purely 100% consistent as reality as thats reality and imagination isn't as deep as it.
Some people want to use Portable holes to generate infinite energy. To them the presence of physics breaking things at all bends credility beyond belief.
While execution is important, I still think this supports my point that unless your the setting steps on a specific button that some person is really bothered by, in general it won't really matter. For you , ignoring the difference between a caravel and a ship of the line is just inexcusable. For others the presence of 'Leather Armor' is just ludicrist.
The only way to avoid all of that is magicless 1600's england and mud farmers only, lest your play disrupt historical events and drift into implausibility.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2022, 10:52:26 AMI think this all feeds into a greater point that more consistency or such is good for a world, but it can never be purely 100% consistent as reality as thats reality and imagination isn't as deep as it. ...(U)nless your setting steps on a specific button that some person is really bothered by, in general it won't really matter.
I think you're right about that as a general thing. Certainly calling
Exalted a "kitchen sink" as far as being consistent with its real-world inspirations is to miss the point. And the general threshold, or specific immersion-breaker, on which a "kitchen sink" setting starts to
feel like a kitchen sink is going to vary between people.
To use TVTropes terminology,
Exalted can be looked at as a case study in the conflict between the Rules of Cool and Awesome (in which character, plot and setting elements are thrown in solely for audience enjoyment individually) and the Rule of Drama (in which to preserve verisimilitude and emotional engagement, elements have to be selected for their cumulative interactive effect together). The fact that game settings aren't books and have to leave room for different types of narratives alters these dynamics somewhat.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 04, 2022, 09:07:53 PM
Why the hate for Kitchen sinks? Both literal and figurative.
The literal sink is a figurative symbol of oppress... eh, don't really hate kitchen sinks. They're fine for certain modes of play.
Though to be more nuanced, published kitchen sinks are often a problem. Because they tend to be morbidly overweight with setting material, which makes it hard to run a game unless 1) you memorize all that shit and are willing to weave all your own stuff into the few gaps in that complex mass, or 2) you're willing to throw out or at least ignore a lot of the material, in which case the surfeit of setting material becomes superfluous.
Exalted is a kitchen sink, but it's not a Western kitchen sink. For my style of play, I think a broad outline and a bunch of tools/setting elements that can be dropped in as desired (or not) would be a good start. Fewer splatbooks and metaplot, more exploring Creation.
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on July 08, 2022, 11:03:12 AM
The fact that game settings aren't books and have to leave room for different types of narratives alters these dynamics somewhat.
Not that his has stopped companies from releasing their idiosyncratic restrictive personal fiction settings under the guise of being a functional ttrpg setting (when it's not) and conned loads of groups into worshiping the canon like an actual religion and attacking people for not playing according to script.
Quote from: Pat on July 08, 2022, 12:52:51 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 04, 2022, 09:07:53 PM
Why the hate for Kitchen sinks? Both literal and figurative.
The literal sink is a figurative symbol of oppress... eh, don't really hate kitchen sinks. They're fine for certain modes of play.
Though to be more nuanced, published kitchen sinks are often a problem. Because they tend to be morbidly overweight with setting material, which makes it hard to run a game unless 1) you memorize all that shit and are willing to weave all your own stuff into the few gaps in that complex mass, or 2) you're willing to throw out or at least ignore a lot of the material, in which case the surfeit of setting material becomes superfluous.
Exalted is a kitchen sink, but it's not a Western kitchen sink. For my style of play, I think a broad outline and a bunch of tools/setting elements that can be dropped in as desired (or not) would be a good start. Fewer splatbooks and metaplot, more exploring Creation.
I think kitchen sinks are useful insofar as they save you time on making your own stuff. Where they can become problems is in situations where you're forced to keep track of them all at once because the metaplot supplement treadmill is your god now, or in situations where all of these elements exist in isolation and no attempt is made at providing concrete adventures where they crossover because god forbid the group need to buy more than one or two books.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 08, 2022, 10:52:26 AM
"If you have a 1-5 demons in your setting SOMEWHERE, then the need to defend against demons all the time everywhere is about the same"
I'm mainly disappointed that you were misrepresenting my setting by claiming that flight was everywhere and broke the setting by my refusal to account for the way it being everywhere would warp the setting when all the canonical material I've given you actually places flight as something on the extremely rare side well beyond the reach of all but the wealthiest individuals and rather rare mythical creatures (including that even starting PC's are called out as being 1-in-10,000 exceptions to the norm).
QuoteFor you, ignoring the difference between a caravel and a ship of the line is just inexcusable.
I defy anyone to tell me that this...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/Ni%C3%B1a_replica_-_Morro_Bay_CA.jpg)
replica of the 60 ton Nina (a caravel) from c. 1492
... and this ...
(https://navaltheater.com/sites/default/files/2019-09/003%20Victory.JPG)
The 3500 ton HMS Victory (100 gun Ship-of-the-Line) launched in 1765
...should be considered the same thing with the same stats in anything with human-scale granularity.
Once seen these sort of issues cannot be unseen. ;D
QuoteFor others the presence of 'Leather Armor' is just ludicrist.
And rightly so ;) , for less money a layered cloth gambeson provides far superior protection and just about every instance of "Studded Leather" is now known to have been brigandine. Leather Armor clearly belongs entirely in the fantasy section along side such mythical beasts as the griffin.
If you want sexy leather outfits, that's fine, but don't pretend its cheap and affordable or superior to a gambeson (the level D&D places gambeson is entirely criminal) such that your peasant conscripts will be decked out in it. Maybe note that leather "armor" is specifically a wealthy fashion statement more than it is a practical form of protection (ex. in my setting "hydra leather" magically treated so as to repair itself is one of the fluff-text alternatives to linen and wool for higher quality clothing).
Or maybe there is something to the nature of hide that was once part of a sentient creature that makes it better at holding magical energy and because of this magical leather armor is common because it is far easier to enchant than linen or metal.
Just give me
something beyond "the limits of my research were reading the D&D Player's Handbook and taking it as Gospel."
QuoteThe only way to avoid all of that is magicless 1600's england and mud farmers only, lest your play disrupt historical events and drift into implausibility.
And even then they'd get it wrong (including the false assumption of "the dung ages") because to actually get it right they'd have to give half-a-fuck and research the topic they're writing about (and no, other rpg books doesn't count as research... see leather armor above).
I can understand why gross inaccuracies would be a thing in the pre-internet days when your ability to research a topic was limited to what your local library had on hand or could order... but in the present day just typing in "types of sailing ship" into a Google (or Brave in my case) search returns this as its first result; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_ship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_ship) filled with a wealth of information and additional links you could use to actually try and get something closer to accurate... and that's not even counting other entries further down the search list.
Sometimes reaching back to old badly researched material can be quaint or charming if you're trying to maintain a setting that has been in continuous existence since those times (or do a homage to one)... playing 1e AD&D with the assumptions right out of 1977 for example. But if you're going to have such a break from better researched material I'd prefer the reason be deliberate rather than "didn't care enough to look."
Going all the way back to the OP, I think I might be willing to use the system from Soulbound (C7's Age of Sigmar RPG) for Exalted. It has a great core system about mythical heroes that join into Bindings (which are a lot like Circles/Sworn Brotherhoods of Exalts), and most of it's issues come from a few poorly balanced abilities and some inconsistencies that are drawn from the AoS setting.
The biggest changes this would have on Exalted is that there would be no tracking of the Essence gas tank. Most Charms would be taken from Soulbound's Talents with some added cosmetic effects for anima. Other changes could be represented by the Fyreslayer runes (although the Exalts wouldn't have the trappings of the runes, they would have the effects of them as part of their Exalted powers).
Soulbound already contains mythic monsters, some of which can be upfraded to "godbeasts" for epic challenges. It also has magical steampunk tech that can be adapted into the magitech of Creation with a little effort.
Will it be a perfect fit? Of course not, but it could work and create a muh more playable game for gamers that don't want the headaches of the Exalted system.
Quote from: Chris24601 on July 08, 2022, 01:12:17 PMI'm mainly disappointed that you were misrepresenting my setting by claiming that flight was everywhere and broke the setting by my refusal to account for the way it being everywhere would warp the setting when all the canonical material I've given you actually places flight as something on the extremely rare side well beyond the reach of all but the wealthiest individuals and rather rare mythical creatures (including that even starting PC's are called out as being 1-in-10,000 exceptions to the norm).
That was never my intent and I apologize for coming off that way on a public forum. As to everything else, I think the conversation is going in cycles.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 08, 2022, 01:02:55 PM
Quote from: Pat on July 08, 2022, 12:52:51 PM
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 04, 2022, 09:07:53 PM
Why the hate for Kitchen sinks? Both literal and figurative.
The literal sink is a figurative symbol of oppress... eh, don't really hate kitchen sinks. They're fine for certain modes of play.
Though to be more nuanced, published kitchen sinks are often a problem. Because they tend to be morbidly overweight with setting material, which makes it hard to run a game unless 1) you memorize all that shit and are willing to weave all your own stuff into the few gaps in that complex mass, or 2) you're willing to throw out or at least ignore a lot of the material, in which case the surfeit of setting material becomes superfluous.
Exalted is a kitchen sink, but it's not a Western kitchen sink. For my style of play, I think a broad outline and a bunch of tools/setting elements that can be dropped in as desired (or not) would be a good start. Fewer splatbooks and metaplot, more exploring Creation.
I think kitchen sinks are useful insofar as they save you time on making your own stuff. Where they can become problems is in situations where you're forced to keep track of them all at once because the metaplot supplement treadmill is your god now, or in situations where all of these elements exist in isolation and no attempt is made at providing concrete adventures where they crossover because god forbid the group need to buy more than one or two books.
I think kitchen sink settings are less useful than a sketchy outline of a setting + a lot of GM tools. I prefer that just provides a high level overview of what is known.
Then provide tools. A starting location, a bunch of one-off adventures, list of names, NPC stat blocks, organization and conspiracy generators, and so on. All of these tools are expressedly optional, and are designed to be placed where the GM needs them to be placed, and to be used how the GM needs them to be used, rather than being explicitly set in a particular corner of the setting, and worked into the metaplot. To retrain GMs to think that way, it might help to make many of them explicitly contradict each other, and to leave explicit gaps (like names or locations) that need to be filled in.
The idea is to keep the core as simple as possible, and then let the GM define the details in play, and only those details that are needed. The reason is because it's really hard to remember all the ins and outs of someone else's highly detailed Creation, but it's easy (and organic) to remember only the details that came up in play, and which you yourself had a hand in creating; and it gives maximum flexibility in taking the campaign wherever you want to take it.
A lot of it's presentation -- when it's all presented as established lore, it's harder for a lot of GMs and a lot of players to go against the canon. But if it's deconstructed into pieces, it can work as a toolbox without creating a tapestry that's hard to mess with.
Of course, the reason why there's a cornucopia of elaborate interlocking settings and a dearth of toolboxes is because splatbooks are a lot easier to monetize, plus writing a coherent setting appeals to all the wannabe fantasy authors in the RPG field -- they want to write
their setting, instead of helping
you create your own.
From what I know about Exalted's power-level it sounds like something I'd do with MSH.
But it might lose some of the "tic-tac" combat resolution that's supposed to be inherent to the Martial arts vibe of it? In that case I'd just convert it to Savage Worlds Rifts. I'm pretty confident it could be modeled there pretty easily.
Just my two coppers.
DC Heroes might work well too.