The answer, as always, is to play Qwixalted instead. It has only two balance tiers: Celestials and everyone else. It works out fine as long as the two are not mixed.

The reason why ST games are imbalanced is due to their complexity. Here's a simple fix: use mage's sphere model for everything. Vampire disciplines become vampire-specific spheres, etc. All previous rigid powers are now examples of rotes.

I think allot of the issue with feuding fans comes from viewing the game as if Splats were "niches". Splat A are the fighty ones, Splat B are the Social Ones while Splat C are sneaks like character classes in D and D. It wasn't really intended that way or (IMO) meant for multi splat Justice League team ups. You can do it but there are going to be issues.

Quote from: Nexus;890971I think allot of the issue with feuding fans comes from viewing the game as if Splats were "niches". Splat A are the fighty ones, Splat B are the Social Ones while Splat C are sneaks like character classes in D and D. It wasn't really intended that way or (IMO) meant for multi splat Justice League team ups. You can do it but there are going to be issues.

I agree, that is where I think the fans got it wrong.  If you want to make the JLA (or whatever) each splat has it's own niches built in.  So you have the Solar JLA, the Siddie JLA, the DB JLA all self-contained in their own book.

Nothing can fix exalted.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;891041I agree, that is where I think the fans got it wrong.  If you want to make the JLA (or whatever) each splat has it's own niches built in.  So you have the Solar JLA, the Siddie JLA, the DB JLA all self-contained in their own book.

That's how I feel about but you have the mixed group types that are either numerous, the most vocal or both.

Exalted is the oddest game. Its created so many incredibly diverse experiences and opinions. As I've said before its like there's several slightly different version of the game and all its supplements floating around.

Quote from: RPGPundit;892036Nothing can fix exalted.

It can be replace.  Godbound is every thing Exalted should had been.

Exalted can totally be fixed. But it would take both a frank appraisal of it's shortcomings, and the ability to correct them. The issue is that the current staff lack the latter and are completely unwilling to do the former.

Quote from: Nexus;890971I think allot of the issue with feuding fans comes from viewing the game as if Splats were "niches". Splat A are the fighty ones, Splat B are the Social Ones while Splat C are sneaks like character classes in D and D. It wasn't really intended that way or (IMO) meant for multi splat Justice League team ups. You can do it but there are going to be issues.

Yeah, someone put it quite succinctly on RBP. "People that want to turn Exalted into D&D, should just go play D&D instead". Or words to that effect, anyway, I'm not going to search for it:).

Quote from: RPGPundit;892036Nothing can fix exalted.

The Artifice Word totally can fix anything;).

Besides, the current 3e doesn't need fixing, and for what I can tell, neither do 1e Sidereals, 1e DBs, 2e Lunars, 2e Infernals, or Burn Legend. The 3rd edition might need to be fine-tuned in order to appeal to certain preferences, but it does work just fine so far!

Quote from: AsenRG;892166Besides, the current 3e doesn't need fixing, and for what I can tell, neither do 1e Sidereals, 1e DBs, 2e Lunars, 2e Infernals, or Burn Legend. The 3rd edition might need to be fine-tuned in order to appeal to certain preferences, but it does work just fine so far!

Yeah, maybe for YOU.
But then again, 1e and 2e also "works just fine" and "doesn't need to be fixed" ... (at least at the beginning of each edition).

For me, 3rd Ed. needs more than just fine-tuning.
It will crumble under its own weight AGAIN soon enough. They learned nothing from the first two iterations...in some parts they even made it worse (ok, to be fair, some parts are an improvement over 1e and 2e).
But as an overall work, it is still heavily lacking. And it most probably will stay that way...unless (here's still hope) the new owners of the IP pull the plug on this iteration and really build the game anew from the ground up (a promise the 3e team made but did not provide on...at all).

Quote from: Anglachel;892170Yeah, maybe for YOU.

But then again, 1e and 2e also "works just fine" and "doesn't need to be fixed" ... (at least at the beginning of each edition).

Yes, "for me" and "for now" are things I don't see the need to specify:).
Or rather, "for people that like crunchy games and don't object on principle grounds against some mechanics". Also, "fuck that, of course I'm talking about the current state of the affairs - do you think I've got a crystal ball or something?"

QuoteFor me, 3rd Ed. needs more than just fine-tuning.

Yeah, if you prefer something rules-lite, or something else that goes against the grain of the system, you need a re-write. Or just use Godbound;).
Me? I wanted Exalted 3 to be rules-lite for a change. The developers told me on TBP it ain't gonna happen, so I can't claim I was surprised or anything.
In the end, I got a crunchy system that works for me, at least for now. More books might change that, or they might improve the current state of affairs, who knows?

QuoteIt will crumble under its own weight AGAIN soon enough. They learned nothing from the first two iterations...in some parts they even made it worse (ok, to be fair, some parts are an improvement over 1e and 2e).
But as an overall work, it is still heavily lacking. And it most probably will stay that way...unless (here's still hope) the new owners of the IP pull the plug on this iteration and really build the game anew from the ground up (a promise the 3e team made but did not provide on...at all).

Well, I admit either of these developments is possible. We'll just have to wait and see:D!

I just don't like being told "if you don't like crunchy games" ... that is bullshit. I DO like crunchy games if the crunch holds up well and is designed from someone with an understanding of its weight. Exalted unfortunately never had designers who understood that.

This is btw not a dig at you, Asen. While you seemed to imply the same thing above, you at least added a little bit to it, but i have heard "the short version" of it all over the place and it just makes me angry because it's a bullshit argument.

No, this is not correct : not liking Exalted = not liking crunchy games.

So if that is your (as in a generic "your") argument, then fuck off!

Btw, care to elaborate on the "object on principle grounds on some mechanics" or "against the grain of the system" bits (that was your addendum to the standard "argument")? Because i don't think i object per se to the design that Exalted employs (exception based stuff etc ).

Also, i don't think you have a crystal ball...would be cool though
It just never hurts to clarify your statements because otherwise misunderstandings are much easier. And you often come off as a bit of a "i know it all".

Quote from: Anglachel;892308I just don't like being told "if you don't like crunchy games" ... that is bullshit. I DO like crunchy games if the crunch holds up well and is designed from someone with an understanding of its weight. Exalted unfortunately never had designers who understood that.

This is btw not a dig at you, Asen. While you seemed to imply the same thing above, you at least added a little bit to it, but i have heard "the short version" of it all over the place and it just makes me angry because it's a bullshit argument.

No, this is not correct : not liking Exalted = not liking crunchy games.

Of course! Never meant to imply that, I'm like that myself:)!
What I mean is that I like both crunchy and non-crunchy games. In fact, I can run Legends of the Wulin almost without consulting the book, and I managed to explain it in 15 minutes clearly enough that someone who was just listening without intending to play, got the basics of the rules. BTW, that's a game some people have mentioned on TBP being hard to grok while reading the book, so you can guess how much crunch it contains;)!
And yet, I refuse to play 3+e, 4e, or Pathfinder. I just don't like those rules, and think too much of them don't achieve anything. Surprisingly, 13th age sounds cool, though I might still decide it's too heavy once I try it:p!

QuoteBtw, care to elaborate on the "object on principle grounds on some mechanics" or "against the grain of the system" bits (that was your addendum to the standard "argument")?

I wasn't talking about you, here. I'm talking about relatively common objections like "I don't like exception-based design", or "I think it's too storygamey", or "I think Initiative sucks" (which I vehemently disagree with). "Thinking it's too storygamey" is actually what I termed "objection on principle" (a variation would be "just doesn't work for me"), and "not liking exception-based design" is "against the grain of the system".
These are what most people have mentioned when explaining why they dislike the system. I have pretty much no idea why you dislike it, but if you come up with something I haven't heard yet, I might have to amend the previous statement.

QuoteBecause i don't think i object per se to the design that Exalted employs (exception based stuff etc ).

As mentioned above, I simply don't know. If you tell me clearly and succinctly your objections, we'll see whether I've encountered anything similar;).

QuoteAnd you often come off as a bit of a "i know it all".

Is that me, or the "generic you" again:D?

Exalted is not 'crunchy' by any stretch of the imagination.  It's actively hostile to GMs, though.  Said this before, and I honestly apologize if people are sick of it, but...

Each and every single charm in Exalted, is like a D&D style spell:  A block of exclusionary rules that aren't bound by the rest of the rules system.  They do their own thing and that's it.  Problem is, there are over 3000 of them, and every character of note uses them..

Now, for a player, that never comes into play.  They just need to know which ones they own and that's that.

The GM on the other hand -and this is assuming that he doesn't hand-wave the issues away- has to know every single charm/power they are planning on using for the bad guys, which is often about 4 times the amount (minimum) that the players have in total.  Then they have to understand how they will interact, how they can be countered, if they can be countered and more, like environmental effects.

Now, yes, a GM usually has to learn more than the average player in a game, but Exalted amplifies that almost exponentially.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;892422Exalted is not 'crunchy' by any stretch of the imagination.

I wouldn't call a game with over 3000 exception-based powers "not crunchy". For that matter, I wouldn't even call a game with 100 exception-based powers "not crunchy".
You have to be using a very different definition of "crunchy"!

Quote from: AsenRG;892439I wouldn't call a game with over 3000 exception-based powers "not crunchy". For that matter, I wouldn't even call a game with 100 exception-based powers "not crunchy".
You have to be using a very different definition of "crunchy"!

That's not crunchy, that's bloated and unwieldy, there is a difference.  Crunchy is Champions/HERO or Metkon 2, in which you needed to have decent math skills or a calculator to work out the exact costs to make a character or a mecha for the game.  But at least after that the game functions with minimal rules interpretation and mental gymnastics.

Exalted does not.