Also, the Romans didn't "enslave fucking everybody".  They had slaves, but they also had a system where in spite of not being born in Rome you could, by MERIT alone, end up becoming a citizen of the empire with all the same rights as any other citizen, and even come to hold high office.

Plus, as FVB pointed out, their slavery system had nothing to do with race.  You could be a Rome-born Italian of pure blood and be a slave. And in a certain period, you could be the great-grandson of a barbarian chief and end up being a Senator.

Well, in Spartacus, the Romans DID crucify fucking everybody.

JG

I wouldn't go to tv shows for any actual historical knowledge.  Hell can't even do that for History and Discovery channels any more.

well, when I took Latin damn near thirty years ago I was told that, at the end of the Spartacus revolt the Romans did, in fact, fucking crucify everyone.

Hence the old but still popular trope "I am Spartacus!"

Quote from: Spike;793966well, when I took Latin damn near thirty years ago I was told that, at the end of the Spartacus revolt the Romans did, in fact, fucking crucify everyone.

Hence the old but still popular trope "I am Spartacus!"

That trail of crucifixions happened. Thousands of people along the Appian Way. But Pundit is correct, Roman slavery was a very different institution from ours. That doesn't mean it was pretty (being forced to work in the mines for example could be a death sentence). But the imperial bureaucracy in the early empire was made up almost entirely of the emperor's slaves and freemen. Manumission was possible and you could theoretically climb the social ladder after having been born a slave (not that it was easy or the deck wasn't heavily stacked against you).

And just to be clear, not endorsing Roman slavery. I think something like 30 percent or more of the Italian peninsula were slaves. But what people sometimes don't understand about the Romans is how deep slavery ran and that it wasn't identical to the slavery of the American south. They used slavery for everything (the way we use microwaves or cars). You had slaves for putting on peoples shoes, retrieving rolls at the libraries, copying texts, educating children, etc. It ran a wide range from menial tasks to jobs we would consider white collar. And wasn't based around race in the way slavery was in the US. Background could matter and slaves were taken as a product of conquest, but they didn't have the same notions about race that we do.

I'll give you the Romans were a bad example.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;794039I'll give you the Romans were a bad example.

Anybody who uses slavery is a bad example.  Yes, in a lot of cases it was a necessity for a pre-industrial society, but that's why we should be glad we have an industrial society now.

JG

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;794008That trail of crucifixions happened. Thousands of people along the Appian Way. But Pundit is correct, Roman slavery was a very different institution from ours. That doesn't mean it was pretty (being forced to work in the mines for example could be a death sentence). But the imperial bureaucracy in the early empire was made up almost entirely of the emperor's slaves and freemen. Manumission was possible and you could theoretically climb the social ladder after having been born a slave (not that it was easy or the deck wasn't heavily stacked against you).

Well, yes.

What's your point? I mean, you quoted me responding to Snowman, who in turn was responding to John Wick. I mean, James Gillen.  Now, to be perfectly honest, I don't know exactly what James was responding too, since I care about Exalted 3 about as much as you care about my non-existent bunions, but there you have it.

In other words: I have invested zero energy into worrying about Roman Era Slavery in regards to Exalted, but Spartacus the TV show, showing the Romans crucifying fucking everyone is not rendered historically inaccurate simply because it is light entertainment. Which was my point.  In its entirety.

Well yes the rebellion got that death sentence, but the TV shows it as some sentence that can handed out to everyone which is not true.  Like medieval crossbows can't kill Christians law the Roman crucifixions was viewed too brutal to be done on roman citizens.  If they did do crucifixions on citizens, then it is done on those that did the worst crimes such as starting a rebellion.

Quote from: Spike;794118Well, yes.

What's your point? I mean, you quoted me responding to Snowman, who in turn was responding to John Wick. I mean, James Gillen.  Now, to be perfectly honest, I don't know exactly what James was responding too, since I care about Exalted 3 about as much as you care about my non-existent bunions, but there you have it.

In other words: I have invested zero energy into worrying about Roman Era Slavery in regards to Exalted, but Spartacus the TV show, showing the Romans crucifying fucking everyone is not rendered historically inaccurate simply because it is light entertainment. Which was my point.  In its entirety.

I haven't seen the Spartacus TV show (I thought you were talking about the movie) so I can't comment on its accuracy. So I was just saying that yes, the trail of crucifixions at the end of the film are based on an actual thing that happened. Then I was commenting on the slavery discussion in the rest of my post (where a lot of issues around Roman slavery had been brought up).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;794152I haven't seen the Spartacus TV show (I thought you were talking about the movie) so I can't comment on its accuracy. So I was just saying that yes, the trail of crucifixions at the end of the film are based on an actual thing that happened. Then I was commenting on the slavery discussion in the rest of my post (where a lot of issues around Roman slavery had been brought up).

Specifically I was referring to the Kirk Douglas movie scripted by Dalton Trumbo, not the Starz series where characters spoke in Shakespearian accents but said stuff like "fuck" every sentence.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;794183Specifically I was referring to the Kirk Douglas movie scripted by Dalton Trumbo, not the Starz series where characters spoke in Shakespearian accents but said stuff like "fuck" every sentence.

JG

Never made it past the first episode of the show, personally.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;794008That trail of crucifixions happened. Thousands of people along the Appian Way. But Pundit is correct, Roman slavery was a very different institution from ours. That doesn't mean it was pretty (being forced to work in the mines for example could be a death sentence). But the imperial bureaucracy in the early empire was made up almost entirely of the emperor's slaves and freemen. Manumission was possible and you could theoretically climb the social ladder after having been born a slave (not that it was easy or the deck wasn't heavily stacked against you).

And just to be clear, not endorsing Roman slavery. I think something like 30 percent or more of the Italian peninsula were slaves. But what people sometimes don't understand about the Romans is how deep slavery ran and that it wasn't identical to the slavery of the American south. They used slavery for everything (the way we use microwaves or cars). You had slaves for putting on peoples shoes, retrieving rolls at the libraries, copying texts, educating children, etc. It ran a wide range from menial tasks to jobs we would consider white collar. And wasn't based around race in the way slavery was in the US. Background could matter and slaves were taken as a product of conquest, but they didn't have the same notions about race that we do.

It should be noted that the Romans, by the late Republic/early Principate, had one of the highest densities of slaveholding of any society in antiquity. The wars of the 2nd and 1st centuries BC, particularly in Spain, Greece and latterly Gaul brought in a massive influx of slaves.

That's how you ended up with figures like a third of people in Italy being slaves, or later half of the population of Rome itself. No one before the Romans practised slavery on such an industrial scale, which is also why they didn't have revolts like the various Servile Wars the Romans faced.

But you're right, the ancient practise of slavery was little like that practised in the American South. Slaves had more rights and more importantly could buy their own freedom (with their own money that they were allowed to hold). There was no racial condition whereby anyone of a certain colour was assumed to be a slave and could be enslaved simply by being in the wrong place.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;794195Never made it past the first episode of the show, personally.

The first episode was pretty crap. It got a lot better later on, and the subsequent seasons were very good indeed.

Quote from: James Gillen;794183Specifically I was referring to the Kirk Douglas movie scripted by Dalton Trumbo, not the Starz series where characters spoke in Shakespearian accents but said stuff like "fuck" every sentence.

JG

I think Spartacus was a great movie. Really well done. I wouldn't rely on it for historical accuracy though.

We don't get Starz. When the show first came out we started the first few episodes when we did get the channel but my wife hated it so much we stopped watching.

Accents and curse words don't bother me. I see picking accents as kind of an artistic choice. I, Claudius had the Romans speaking in modern English and that worked pretty well. I think Ben Hur made an interesting choice there, giving the Romans English accents and the people from the province of Judea American accents.

The Romans could be potty mouths when they wanted to so I think as long as they are not doing it in the Senate something, that is okay. Frankly though when I watch anything set in the Empire, I don't get my expectations high for historical accuracy. I am just happy to have something set in a period I like. I find film makers will often get some things quite right but other things quite wrong. In the end though I would rather see historical accuracy sacrificed for a good story than good story sacrificed for historical accuracy if there is a conflict between those two things. I used to pull out my hair watching historical movies and shows. I had a lot more fun when I stopped worrying about accuracy.

And the endless slow motion train wreck that is the Exalted-Ask the Developers thread continues.

Just as a suggestion: When a potential customers asks you a fairly simple question that could, could be read in a slightly negative fashion getting defensive, passive aggressive and huffy might not be the best reaction.