Quote from: Skywalker;785690If its true, then that is a poor development. I seem to recall outcry at how Exalted effectively devalued humanity as the Exalted were so much more powerful. I always found this to be weird as that dilemma is kind of central to the types of stories Exalted is meant to tell.

That's how I feel. Humanity isn't that powerful or "important" if all you think of is in terms of power and martial threat. What makes them important are the intangibles not how dangerous they are and the game is supposed to ask questions about power, responsibility and morality when are at the top of the heap.

Quote from: Nexus;785692That's how I feel. Humanity isn't that powerful or "important" if all you think of is in terms of power and martial threat. What makes them important are the intangibles not how dangerous they are and the game is supposed to ask questions about power, responsibility and morality when are at the top of the heap.

Yep. Exalted is awesome as humanity isn't powerful but its tremendously important. The two should not be equated, and doing so is a sign of an Exalted's fall to hubris.

Removing that from the game seems like removing the "stick" from the game's central dilemma.

It also takes a massive dump on the setting.  Now I am questioning how the exalted defeated the all powerful primordials at this point.  At least in 2E you can see it happening.  Now it is impossible.

Quote from: Snowman0147;785708It also takes a massive dump on the setting.  Now I am questioning how the exalted defeated the all powerful primordials at this point.  At least in 2E you can see it happening.  Now it is impossible.

Of course you can see it happening. They were signature characters, armed with developer fiat. Which makes them better than any mere Player Characters.

Nothing pisses off the players more than that shit you just said.  Especially when said characters had work so damn hard to get to that level.  Look I am the first one to say shit was too powerful at 2E.  This, however, is too much of a power strip down.

Now a mere mortal is a threat when in past editions a single solar can waste a entire army of mortals.  Old edition fans are gonna be piss off by this change.

A single combat Solar probably could handle a large number of "mooks" if they were grouped together a "battle group" (basically a modified version of 2nd's Mass combat rules) while a similar or lesser number of individual fll characters might be overwhelming. At least that's how I understand it. It's the "named character" thing I guess.

I can understand the "name thing" because I use it too, but at the same time the named heroes are actually on the same level as those they fight against.  As in it is man versus man.  This isn't a god vs man.  

The weakest exalted requires a group of mortals to kill off even if you gave them names.  That is the point of playing exalted.  Your playing as some one that is beyond human.  If the developers can't understand that, then why are they even bothering in making the game?

"How can I beat down and keep my players afraid and on the run?" has been a strangely consistent question for the fanbase of a game supposedly about playing a epic legendary hero destined to reshape the world.

It always seemed strangely adversarial and "old school" for a so called modern game. I mean wasn't the idea that PCs had to "earn" their power and respect and work up to being real heros one of the things often bitched in D and D? It's not "Zero to hero" literally but on a relative scale it sure feels like close to the same thing.

Edit: And this doesn't stop at combat. I've seen similar questions constantly. "How do I make my PCs miserable/fail/realize how rotten they're doing?" when said PCs have maxed skills backed by magical powers that make them literally superhuman at what they do. This goes from being socialites to running nations.

Quote from: Snowman0147;785783I can understand the "name thing" because I use it too, but at the same time the named heroes are actually on the same level as those they fight against.  As in it is man versus man.  This isn't a god vs man.  

The weakest exalted requires a group of mortals to kill off even if you gave them names.  That is the point of playing exalted.  Your playing as some one that is beyond human.  If the developers can't understand that, then why are they even bothering in making the game?

I think the system is part of the issue. It doesn't scale well especially at the high end without allot of hand holding by the ST. There isn't much difference between an Exalt and a mortal state wise in the base rules. The Exalt might have some more somewhat higher dice pools and some innate abilities (like faster better healing) but they mostly won't keep him from being stabbed to death by common soldiers. Between an Exalt and Heroic mortal the difference was even less.

Charms help, sometimes a great deal but once you run out of go juice (Essence) that ceases to be an issue and it seems like Persistent defenses and powers like Infinite Ability Mastery are largely excised in 3rd so essence doesn't grant many long term (in combat sense) advantage so numbers are more of an advantage. It makes me wonder about the Dragonblooded. As enemies of Celestials and out numbering them thousands to one...

But that does explain the Usurpation.

I haven't liked the direction Exalted has been going in since early 2ed. Its been becoming some kind of soapbox for the writers to lecture on the evils of whatever their particular socio economic or political hobgoblins are and less about legendary badasses and heroes doing epic and even Over the Top shit with a definite anime flavor which is now a playstyle treated with patronizing attitude and mild contempt ("Rpg.net Exalted").

And a setting meant to be neutral gray as far as innate morality (and I freely admit I largely ignored that aspect. I like my role playing more upbeat) is becoming a typical "White Wolf' Crapsack World where everything you do is "Doomed I tell you, Doom! Oh the Angst, Oh the Mature Gaming!" That's why its funny to see the game get hoisted by the SJW banner it so proudly flies these days.

I notice some players tried to do that shit on scion in a chat I used to go years ago.  Getting close to decade actually.  The STs wanted to make the setting dark and strip the control away from the players as much as possible.

My stance was this.  "DUDE!  Just let me be a fucking hero for once."

Quote from: Snowman0147;786675I notice some players tried to do that shit on scion in a chat I used to go years ago.  Getting close to decade actually.  The STs wanted to make the setting dark and strip the control away from the players as much as possible.

My stance was this.  "DUDE!  Just let me be a fucking hero for once."

What kind of White Wolf player ARE you?

JG

Some one that actually used his brain cells to figure out that Scion does not equal to World of Darkness and thus should not be played as the world of darkness.  Can there be dark moments?  Yes.  Can there be light moments?  Yes.  Should one weigh more than the other?  If it is the world of darkness yes.  If it is scion fucking hell no.

Storyteller does seem to bring out the "Shades of Gray", emo, Crapsack worlder in allot of GMs.

Quote from: Nexus;786811Storyteller does seem to bring out the "Shades of Gray", emo, Crapsack worlder in allot of GMs.

Nah, I think it was a Zeitgeist. WoD by itself doesn't make GMs particularly propense towards storywank anyomre than AD&D 1e encourages them to pixelbitching, hack-and-slash or adversarial GMing.

And I like to imagine that for every boring auteur GM there was at least one cool GM running an awesome "By Night" chronicle, sandbox style.