Common sense would disagree with them due to the simple fact there is 900 fucking charms.  The fact you just told me this is before martial arts and evocations is scary.  There is going to be a lot of book keeping and that is not streamlining.  It is called bulking the system up.

I stand corrected. According to Holden there are approximately 780 charms in the Solar set with 11 MA styles with around 11-13 charms in their respective trees and Evocations (I have no idea how many of those). So I guess its around 900ish total charms.

Quote from: Nexus;779901The story seems to be allot of those charms are upgrades to a previous charm that add functionality or boost power but don't do something totally new.

Which works fine the first time around.

Next time you play a character with a particular charm set, you'll be used to the way the charms worked for your previous character, including the tweaks, so you'll make mistakes and mis-apply things, thinking that the charm works the way you had it rather than the base. It'll be a nightmare.

Quote from: Snowman0147;779893900 charms?  Holy shit that is way too much.  I was thinking ten charms per skill which means 250 charms in total.  Point is that is going to make long time fans and newbies look at the book and be intimidated by the sheer amount of charms.  There is a reason why many people in DnD stick with none spell casting classes.  They really don't want to go through with all those spells while in Exalted you have to go through all those charms.

Edit:  I thought the whole reason for 3.0 was to streamlined the game.  I guess the staff doesn't know what streamlined means.  Then again a theory just pop up in my mind.  I think the writers know that Exalted 3.0 is going to fail so they are cramming as much info that they can get away with.

I don't think its that. I think its more that they have bad management. There wasn't anyone to keep them focused on the goal of "simplification" and to decide before they started what that meant.

So the project quickly spiraled out of control and they put everything they thought would be interesting into the game. And you end up with 780 charms to keep track of for character creation purposes and however many each character has.

Quote from: Nexus;779926I stand corrected. According to Holden there are approximately 780 charms in the Solar set with 11 MA styles with around 11-13 charms in their respective trees and Evocations (I have no idea how many of those). So I guess its around 900ish total charms.

I understood that to be 780 charms in the book total. Including the Martial Arts Styles. Which isn't as bad as 900ish but still way more than is manageable. Edit: Actually, rereading it it does seem like its 780 without Martial Arts or Evocations... Jesus.

Quote from: Ladybird;779928Which works fine the first time around.

Next time you play a character with a particular charm set, you'll be used to the way the charms worked for your previous character, including the tweaks, so you'll make mistakes and mis-apply things, thinking that the charm works the way you had it rather than the base. It'll be a nightmare.

Yes, playing with that many charms will be a nightmare. Character creation will be a huge pain and trying to keep track of them. Ugh....

Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;780211I don't think its that. I think its more that they have bad management. There wasn't anyone to keep them focused on the goal of "simplification" and to decide before they started what that meant.

So the project quickly spiraled out of control and they put everything they thought would be interesting into the game. And you end up with 780 charms to keep track of for character creation purposes and however many each character has.

You pretty much nailed it.  If it was done under good management the list of charms would had been condense.  Like from a list of 780 + martial arts charms to 250 + martial arts charms.  Ten charms per skill/martial art isn't that bad and frankly I would rather deal with that than the mess that is being done now.

At the end of the day people are going to get confused when they open that book and try to make their exalted character.  Seriously those developers are killing exalted without even knowing it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;780222Like from a list of 780 + martial arts charms to 250 + martial arts charms.  Ten charms per skill/martial art isn't that bad and frankly I would rather deal with that than the mess that is being done now.

That's still more than was in 1st Edition Exalted, and even that has a reputation for being bloated. In high level games, charm cards were a necessity. Most charms are just experience tax anyway.

I think you really underestimate just how much Exalted players like crap like this. It's like Magic the Gathering. I'll never understand how people can just buy a new truckload of imaginary magic spells every few months and throw away their old ones.

This charm bloat is coming from a collectible card game point of view. There's always been a tendency in Exalted supplements to increase the mechanical complexity. It even infected talking, because obviously characters can't have a conversation without bringing kewl powers into it.

Just wait, though, simultaneous with release of Exalted 3rd will be charm card packs for sale on DriveThru to "help you keep track." See: condition cards for use with the 2nd Edition of the nWoD.

Don't tell me about it.  Conditions are the worst thing to happen to world of darkness.  It was bad enough with the merit bloat that first edition nWoD had going for itself.  Now with conditions, tilts, and merits added up for the second edition of nWoD I have to say things are bad.  Fact is if you NEED cards to keep track of things as you play your game your doing it wrong.

It is no wonder why DnD 5th edition limit the amount of spells you can prepare for spell casting.  Oh sure you can do fun things with the spell slots with those spells.  Hell you can amp up magic missile as 9th level spell which is pretty awesome.  Point is it reduces the bloat that spell casters have to worry about and make life easier on the GM.  Not to mention it is less real world resource intensive.

Its 780+

Quote from: Stephen Lea Sheppard;18208451Holden just answered this; 780~ in the Solar set, not counting MA or Evocations. Or spells, I guess. Holden, does it count spells? You didn't specify.

Quote from: Nexus;780270Its 780+

Oh, that's OK then. 781 is my exact limit.

Fucking hell, this looks like the kind of mess DnD4 had at the end of the line, and Exalted manages to do it at the beginning. Up side is it will keep the white roomers busy for a while, so at least I won't have to listen about how multiclassing four plus times breaks 5th.

Fantasy HERO: For those who like Exalted, but wanted less bookkeeping and micromanagement of combat.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;780284Fantasy HERO: For those who like Exalted, but wanted less bookkeeping and micromanagement of combat.

Makes me really, really wish I had the time and mindset to get into HERO.

I really regard Exalted as one of the great unfulfilled promises of gaming.

This is why I tell people to try out FATE, or better yet for DnD players Scarlet Heroes.

Sure it is not Exalted, but it is damn well close to it.  Not to mention these options are far less bloated and complicated than Exalted.  Given what is going on with 3rd edition of Exalted you may have no choice.

Quote from: Nexus;780270Its 780+

That's incredibly depressing.

I ran and played the first edition. I liked the first edition, it's just over time, I wanted a game that could capture the same feels in a smaller package. As a GM it was a chore to make and track the charms/spells/abilities of the NPCs, and it only gets worse as the PCs become experienced, and you consider the charms they have available. Creating a villain who would be a challenge in any encounter was not always easy.

If they're willing to throw that much info out for the PCs, I shudder what that will mean for the GM. I don't like the prospect of needing a small notebook for each fully-statted NPC.

Quote from: JamesV;780307That's incredibly depressing.

I ran and played the first edition. I liked the first edition, it's just over time, I wanted a game that could capture the same feels in a smaller package. As a GM it was a chore to make and track the charms/spells/abilities of the NPCs, and it only gets worse as the PCs become experienced, and you consider the charms they have available. Creating a villain who would be a challenge in any encounter was not always easy.

If they're willing to throw that much info out for the PCs, I shudder what that will mean for the GM. I don't like the prospect of needing a small notebook for each fully-statted NPC.

There are some fast NPC rules (and I think templates?) from what I hear but I can't tell you much about them