At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if there were will ardent defenders and apologists tsking any negative reactions if the Exalted Devs posted "Hey, we actually spent that money on hookers and blow, chumps. You'll get it when you get it and like it!" Probably something to do with rpg writing but a stressful labor of love and they need their relaxation time so stop whining.

The reserve of goodwill some people have for that game seems bottomless. And considering some of the past and current issues I'm at a loss to see why.

Too bad that rpg.net is such a double-standard place now. But with a lot of the moderators being OP freelancers, i am not surprised by the hypocrisy.

And i agree with nexus. It's astounding what the Ex Devs can do and say and still some people will endlessly defend them. And the "it's a labor of love ... if i were in it for the money then..." gets old real fast. They work for a company that publishes rpgs...so in my book that is "being a professional" ... so behave that way. Or get out of the business.

If any rulebook were purely a "labour of love" then these days you'd produce it and release it for free or at-cost. You wouldn't seek financial reimbursement for the time you spent working on it because you'd genuinely take pleasure in the process of doing that work, and you'd either put out a PDF for free without spending money on print runs or artwork or you'd scrape together money somehow to get artwork done and put out a book PoD at-cost.

If you're trying to make a profit off of a product - and in particular, if you're trying to make a career out of it - it's more than just a labour of love and you should approach it with that in mind. I sincerely doubt they would have put the work and effort they have already put into this "labour of love" if they did not also think it was a viable commercial product. (Conversely, if it really were a labour of love, commercial considerations wouldn't come into it.)

Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;764710That is the company line. EX3 was going to happen no matter what and the kickstarter really was only to get a bunch of fancy extras.

My personal opinion is this is not factually accurate. I suspect the reality is that without the kickstarter the EX3 project would have been dead in the water at this point. I think it would have been abandoned by now as a failed project, due to delays and such. But the kickstarter has kept the product viable.

I also want to point out that despite being a "luxury product" they also put in a tier for preorders. So that kinda undermines there argument that its really just for the fancy extras.

Wow, lotta misunderstandings and weird assumptions here! Let's see if I can clear some stuff up.

1) I believe you'll find that "at this reward tier, you get the PDF when it's finished!" is present on every RPG kickstarter being done by every company, including independent ones. There's basically no reason not to include it, unless for some reason one is allergic to profits.

2) The way White Wolf (and now Onyx Path) works, there are no up-front production costs until a product reaches the mass-printing stage (and for a PDF or PDF-and-PoD product, there is no mass-printing stage). Historically, writers (and I assume artists as well; the art director handles artist contracts, though, so I could be mistaken about this) were paid on publication of the finished book. [1] That is to say, the in-process development costs are 0; no money moves during the writing process. As a for-example, I submitted my final drafts for Manual of Exalted Power: Alchemicals in very early January of 2009. The first (and last) time I saw any money for the work was in February or March of 2010, when the book came out.

[1] The process is a hair different these days. I'm not going to say exactly how it works now because that's technically covered by NDA, although I doubt anyone would actually care if I did. It's not radically different, in any case.

tl;dr: The kind of videogame-esque "ongoing development costs" you're imagining don't exist. I'm a form 1080p freelance contract worker; I don't draw a salary. EX3's staff costs are the same regardless of whether the thing is done in six weeks or six years; it has no regular physical production costs because there is no traditional print run going to stores; and the deluxe version will have a one-time up-front printing cost... which you guys lapped a dozen times over with the Kickstarter donations.

Hope that clarified things!

Why would the process by which the people writing the game get paid be under NDA?

Quote from: Kiero;767112Why would the process by which the people writing the game get paid be under NDA?

This sounds pedantic, but ... to prevent other people from knowing the details of the contracts.  More specifically, it is often to keep contractors knowing the details of each other's contracts, which prevents *issues*.  'Wait, Kiero is getting paid X more per *thing*??  Fine, if you think I'm low quality, you get low quality."

I think NDAs for the contracts make a lot more sense than NDAs for the game development itself (for RPGs).

Quote from: Anglachel;766407Too bad that rpg.net is such a double-standard place now. But with a lot of the moderators being OP freelancers, i am not surprised by the hypocrisy.

Aren't a lot of moderators on rpg.net WoD developers? The same moderators as on the WW/Onyx Path fora? They usualy close your topic if you say something negative about their games. I was dissapointed in WoD Inferno. I expressed on Shadownessence I didn't like that fact the demons weren't real demon, but spirits of sin. That was a bummer to me. So the topic got closed with big red letters If you can't behave, we have to close this down. This was the final warning. Topic closed.. Freelance writer of WW was the moderator.

Quote from: Holden;766942Entire post.

Just curious. Do you like working for WW/Onyx Path?

I really enjoy the Exalted setting, but the ruleset from 1e/2e was too much for me. Fortunately, if you want to check out the setting AND have a really fun and easy ruleset, check out the Exalted Quickstart.

There is also a website called Qwixalted that has some good ideas for adding cool stuff to the Quickstart from the 1e ruleset.
http://aakin.net/wiki/doku.php?id=qwixalted

Quote from: Holden;766942Stuff...

I am wondering why you guys are not done yet.  People been waiting for years and while only one of you were ill the rest of you guys were still on the job.  I am surprise a competitor hasn't come out and stolen your thunder yet.

Quote from: Holden;766942Wow, lotta misunderstandings and weird assumptions here! Let's see if I can clear some stuff up.

1) I believe you'll find that "at this reward tier, you get the PDF when it's finished!" is present on every RPG kickstarter being done by every company, including independent ones. There's basically no reason not to include it, unless for some reason one is allergic to profits.

2) The way White Wolf (and now Onyx Path) works, there are no up-front production costs until a product reaches the mass-printing stage (and for a PDF or PDF-and-PoD product, there is no mass-printing stage). Historically, writers (and I assume artists as well; the art director handles artist contracts, though, so I could be mistaken about this) were paid on publication of the finished book. [1] That is to say, the in-process development costs are 0; no money moves during the writing process. As a for-example, I submitted my final drafts for Manual of Exalted Power: Alchemicals in very early January of 2009. The first (and last) time I saw any money for the work was in February or March of 2010, when the book came out.

[1] The process is a hair different these days. I'm not going to say exactly how it works now because that's technically covered by NDA, although I doubt anyone would actually care if I did. It's not radically different, in any case.

tl;dr: The kind of videogame-esque "ongoing development costs" you're imagining don't exist. I'm a form 1080p freelance contract worker; I don't draw a salary. EX3's staff costs are the same regardless of whether the thing is done in six weeks or six years; it has no regular physical production costs because there is no traditional print run going to stores; and the deluxe version will have a one-time up-front printing cost... which you guys lapped a dozen times over with the Kickstarter donations.

Hope that clarified things!

Thanks Holden, I wasn't aware that it worked that way. So part of my opinion is largely incorrect.

Now as for the part about the pre-orders. I agree they make for good business. Its a perfectly reasonable thing to include. But by offering bog standard pdf preorders you undermine the argument that this is a kickstarter for the "deluxe print edition" because it isn't. The Kickstarter was for Exalted 3 in general. Because you offered a range of products from pdf only up through the deluxe print edition.

It may seem pedantic but its a very important difference. It's also very frustrating when people keep referring to it as a kickstarter for the "deluxe print edition" when it really isn't. It's both technically incorrect and it comes across as deeply dismissive if not openly insulting.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;767434Just curious. Do you like working for WW/Onyx Path?

Yes, he does. He is one of the developers of the game in question.

Quote from: DisgruntleFairy;767443Yes, he does. He is one of the developers of the game in question.

Let Holden answer his question.  We are not attacking him so there is no need to defend him.

I've been thinking about the "controversial" Celestial Bliss Trick charm proposed in the playtest document and talking about it with my group. The major problem with it seems to be that the text doesn't explicitly say that it must be used in consensual sexual activity. The text uses terms like "lover" and "partner" implying consent but apparently never comes right out and says it required leading a potentially very dark use.

And we're okay with that.

Exalted has always been played up as a game about power, its use and abuse and the consequences they entail. Charms are like weapons. They're tools. Its the intent that matters. That this effect can be used in a disturbing way doesn't mean its should be verboten. It fits in the Solar ability paradigm (legendary heroes and masters of skill), being the "World's Greatest Lover", Creation's Don Juan or Mata Hari is a fairly solid concept for a solar.

As for using it to the facilitate sexual assault and forcing the victim to like it. Well, the Solars and Exalted in general got up to some foul crap. It part of the reason the setting is circling the drain as it stands. Charms shouldn't, IMO, come with morality blockers anymore than a sword or a hammer. Creation, while large in scope, is morally neutral. Now not all groups are going want to deal with an explicitly sexual charm, and that's a different matter. If any material is too uncomfortable to use then don't. As I understand, the charm isn't integral to anything but its own little tree.

I'm referring to the "moral panic" objections I've seen. A ton of the social charms have potentially "skeevy" uses (Hypnotic Tongue Technique, Memory Reweaving Discipline leap to mind), ones that my players wouldn't use but a villainous NPC very well might. And something fueled the horror stories of the Anathema and their irresistible wiles.

Having something with a potentially foul use in a setting doesn't mean the writers are endorsing that action. Its up to each group to determine what their limits and tolerances are. We're adults, Exalted is, allegedly, a game to be played mostly by adults. I find the calls what amounts to hand holding as if a single power is going to turn everyone that reads it into a slavering sex fiend the height of hyberbole
and over reaction

I guess to show how much the mood of the fanbase as their have been charms like this (Sidereal Celestial Bliss trick, Thousand Courtasean Calculations for Alchemicals, etc) in the game since the beginning and I don't recall this much of a stink coming up before.

For me, its odd that people reading a description of an ability that makes the character a superlative lover immediately went to rape in their heads...

No kidding Nexus.  I read Exalted books before and those charms fit the setting very well.  I can imagine those charms are used for good and ill so to me the charms don't really scream much to me.  

Creation is the land of extremes and exotic.  In one part of creation you could be in a island paradise living the big life.  In another part of creation there is a massive genocide forge a new shadow land by shoving innocent people into abyssal necromancy machines.  Like I said it is a setting of extremes.

As for the people complaining about those charms I just wish they go away.  Play a setting that matches up with sensibilities, but don't try to ruin a setting that is already created for maybe at least two decades ago.  How old is exalted?

Quote from: Snowman0147;767445Let Holden answer his question.  We are not attacking him so there is no need to defend him.

I just realized that I totally miss read his question. Sorry for responding to a question that wasn't actually asked. My mistake!