Quote from: Snowman0147;752252Shit 4th DnD makes a better Exalted game.  The guy who did Stars Without Numbers had made a better Exalted game.  FATE is a better Exalted game.  Hell if I wanted to I can make a better Exalted game.

The real question is why is Exalted still a fucking turd?  Even if one designer is deathly ill the other designers are still around.  They have no excuse.

1. It's a hypercrunchy system, it's one of the games with the most "moving parts" of pretty much any game out there except for Magic or other long-running CCG's... but it's built on a game system that was never really designed to "do" mechanics, and without a large enough budget to properly design, test and review everything, and without a top-down plan for the line's development (Apparently 3e has one of those, though? Which is good, but those things take a lot of time to write properly).

2. It lacks a specific definition of what the game is about. Mythic-level adventuring? Yeah, that's us! Which myths? All of them! Don't like that? Okay, play a regular dude, our system handles that just as well!

Exalted isn't trying to be just one game; it's trying to be ALL OF THE GAMES, ALL AT ONCE! And that's the key for all the hacks, I think; they concentrate on being just one game... so if you like that particular type of Exalted, yay, but it won't do it for you if you like something else. But hey, writing a hack is easy.

But that's the view from someone who has only played Exalted a few times, and wouldn't have the patience for it today.

Quote from: Ladybird;752254Exalted isn't trying to be just one game; it's trying to be ALL OF THE GAMES, ALL AT ONCE

Thank you! I've long thought one of the problems with Exalted is that its trying to serve too many masters at once. And in more than just mechanics. I think that also explains some of the intensity of disputes among the fanbase. Everyone is picking out their favorite aspects and taking it as what the game is "meant" to me or the best thing about it. And it contribute to the setting and, well, crunch bloat" the game has had since the beginning.

Yes, but that is impossible.  Even Fantasy Flight doesn't even attempt that with Warhammer 40K.  Onyx Path doesn't do that with nWoD with the god machine chronicle books.  You can't have a game that caters to everyone's taste.  It simply cannot be done.

Quote from: Snowman0147;752260Yes, but that is impossible.  Even Fantasy Flight doesn't even attempt that with Warhammer 40K.  Onyx Path doesn't do that with nWoD with the god machine chronicle books.  You can't have a game that caters to everyone's taste.  It simply cannot be done.

Yes, it's been one of the major issues, IMO, since the beginning.

Quote from: Snowman0147;752260Yes, but that is impossible.  Even Fantasy Flight doesn't even attempt that with Warhammer 40K.  Onyx Path doesn't do that with nWoD with the god machine chronicle books.  You can't have a game that caters to everyone's taste.  It simply cannot be done.

The usual way of handling it, is to make multiple games; each of the 40k lines is intended to be it's own game line, same with the WoD's, new Star Wars, the Dungeonses and the Dragonses, and they note that crossovers could be messy and aren't really supported. That way, each game line can devote itself to being one thing.

Quote from: Ladybird;752263The usual way of handling it, is to make multiple games; each of the 40k lines is intended to be it's own game line, same with the WoD's, new Star Wars, the Dungeonses and the Dragonses, and they note that crossovers could be messy and aren't really supported. That way, each game line can devote itself to being one thing.

Exalted could have worked along those lines with all the different splats and groups. Might have avoid some of them constant dick measuring arguments between fans of the different splats or the background inconsistency.

"Polishing a turd" is about the most accurate description of EX3 development I've found. I mean, the system isn't that irredeemable, but the philosophies applied to it probably are.

For example, juggling Essence expenditure for bonus dice? That's pretty much just going to break the system, because that sort of d10 dice pool system has vastly different properties beyond a certain number of dice. Which is something that both Exalted and Aberrant had problems with. Plus, rolling huge numbers of dice is tedious. It seems like they're cutting back dice pools in this, though, which would be great.

Overall, you _can_ make an okayish system based on Storyteller, but only if you go out of your way to avoid engaging with the mechanical structure. Which is why some of these non-mechanical charm benefits are infinitely more likely to work than crap like, "you turn X of your dice into successes" and "spend Essence to boost your dice, up to Attribute+Skill or Skill+Speciality depending on splat, etc."

Also, the reliance on little mechanical differences (like the Solar vs. Dragon-Blooded booster caps) really hurt the game. Sure, thematically, it sounds like it makes Solars all about talent, whereas Dragon-Blooded are all about training and specialization to overcome their weaknesses. But in the actual game? A Solar's dice pool doesn't "feel" like it's about talent and a Dragon-Blood's dice pool doesn't 'feel" like it's about training, because stuff that seems neat for a moment in character generation doesn't translate to actual play. Ultimately, I think the human mind is set up to focus on, "both are adding dice so playing them feels the same" and not "the amount of dice they get to add was calculated in this clever thematic way so playing them feels different."

The problem I have with what little we've seen (mostly the charm previews) is that not only haven't learned that Exalted needs less crunch to meet its promises, but also that, in many ways, gaming has moved beyond Exalted (after having learned a great deal from it!).

The "Angle-Tracing Edge" is an example.  Lots of words for "you can hit someone in cover, with a penalty if it is full cover".  In 2000, that was a cool ability.  Now ... it is rather "meh".  Not to mention it is misnamed - it should be "Arc-Tracing Edge".

I think that seeing what happens with D&D 5E and Exalted 3E will be very interesting.  WotC have found out that the population of optimizing, crunch-heavy gamers (a la 4vengers) is not great, and so have targeted 5E at the medium-crunch level.  OPP have decided that crunch heavy *is* the crowd to go after.  Now maybe they can pick up disgruntled 4E fans, but I doubt it, because there isn't the tactical skirmish combat aspect in Exalted.  "Highly Narrative" combined with "High crunch and system mastery" is not such a great intersection.

I can think of numerous ways to fix Storyteller and make it work for Exalted 3E, including keeping charms intact.  So I think it is definitely doable.

Quote from: Kiero;752251The latest discussions just confirm to me that this entire project is people polishing a turd. It was never going to be a good game (mechanically) the moment they decided not to throw the Storyteller system in the bin and start from scratch with something actually designed to do the job properly.

"Polishing a turd" is a good way to put it, IMO. Maybe a little harsh but I haven't seen much that indicates that the 3rd ed system is making any moves in the directions I'd like. But then the "Ink Monkeys" stuff wasn't to my taste anyway and I never thought Storyteller was a good choice for something like Exalted from day 1.

Quote from: Obeeron;752318The problem I have with what little we've seen (mostly the charm previews) is that not only haven't learned that Exalted needs less crunch to meet its promises, but also that, in many ways, gaming has moved beyond Exalted (after having learned a great deal from it!).

Don't dare mention that less crunch might be good for Exalted. One of the most recent threads had a big blow up about that and how anyone that ever hoped for more moderate crunch was damn near insane for thinking that and dead wrong to boot. Despite that each incarnation of the game has gotten more complicated and been a bigger train wreck than that last.  And what we've seen of 3rd (admittedly very little) we've seen of 3rd promises more of the same (new things to track, lots of keywords, dozen of new charms, etc).

QuoteThe "Angle-Tracing Edge" is an example.  Lots of words for "you can hit someone in cover, with a penalty if it is full cover".  In 2000, that was a cool ability.  Now ... it is rather "meh".  Not to mention it is misnamed - it should be "Arc-Tracing Edge".

I really haven't been that impressed by the Charm reveals. They've seem pretty "meh". Nice tricks but mostly things that other games cover by having high skills and description not dozens of little individual rules exceptions to memorize and juggle not epic powers of demi gods.

QuoteI think that seeing what happens with D&D 5E and Exalted 3E will be very interesting.  WotC have found out that the population of optimizing, crunch-heavy gamers (a la 4vengers) is not great, and so have targeted 5E at the medium-crunch level.  OPP have decided that crunch heavy *is* the crowd to go after.  Now maybe they can pick up disgruntled 4E fans, but I doubt it, because there isn't the tactical skirmish combat aspect in Exalted.  "Highly Narrative" combined with "High crunch and system mastery" is not such a great intersection.
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I'm not really seeing it either and it goes back to serving too many masters. But apparently wanting lighter crunch means you want to turn Exalted into Risus or Wu-shu.

But keeping the "narrative" angle does allow for a ready made excuse when things snarl up. That its not the mechanics but the players are handling the "narrative" wrong, role playing not Roll playing, yadda yadda...

Quote from: Kiero;752251The latest discussions just confirm to me that this entire project is people polishing a turd. It was never going to be a good game (mechanically) the moment they decided not to throw the Storyteller system in the bin and start from scratch with something actually designed to do the job properly.

QFT!

Oh and RPG.net gets really bad with "we are all the same but the mods are same-r"... they ban a member for group-attacking the Devs (unfairly so, imo) and not two pages later Holden more or less insults the whole Exalted fanbase (of which many are members on rpg.net) and nobody blinks an eye. That's messed up.
The attitude of the Ex3e Dev team really starts to annoy me. Too bad Kickstarter does not do refunds (yeah, i backed it...naive little thing that i was... :eek: ).

Quote from: Anglachel;752363QFT!

Oh and RPG.net gets really bad with "we are all the same but the mods are same-r"... they ban a member for group-attacking the Devs (unfairly so, imo)

The call that saying "They're bad at game design" is now a "Group Attack" stuff?

Yeah that was bullshit.

Quoteand not two pages later Holden more or less insults the whole Exalted fanbase (of which many are members on rpg.net) and nobody blinks an eye. That's messed up.

Well it certainly doesn't help that some of the Devs are moderators...

Quote from: Obeeron;752318I think that seeing what happens with D&D 5E and Exalted 3E will be very interesting.  WotC have found out that the population of optimizing, crunch-heavy gamers (a la 4vengers) is not great, and so have targeted 5E at the medium-crunch level.

I don't think that's a fair comment; 4e isn't really friendly to optimisation (Because the range between optimised and unoptimised characters isn't that big), while the game that "beat" it is very encouraging of optimisation (Pathfinder). Exalted also isn't going for the market leader position, because that's just a money sink, and OP don't have the resources to compete (Even FFG, one of the few companies with the money to compete for the Number 1 RPG title, aren't trying to). The question will be, whether Ex3 will be able to sustain it's own development.

Quote from: Anglachel;752363The attitude of the Ex3e Dev team really starts to annoy me. Too bad Kickstarter does not do refunds (yeah, i backed it...naive little thing that i was... :eek: ).

You can ask the creators for a refund, but that's it. Whether or not you'll get it depends on things - the one time I've done it, the creator refunded me - but if you don't ask, the answer will be no.

Of course, be polite but firm, etc.

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?730104-Exalted-Is-Third-Edition-EVER-Going-To-Come-Out

Well a new Exalted 3 thread is out. Already the designer and apologists have shown up to talk about how poor they are and how this really just a hobby project (around post 50).

First off are you a abyssal exalted because you certainly pulled some necromancery in this thread?

Joking aside that is six pages of bullshit I just read.  There are a few posts that I can sympathize with.  Mainly those posters that figured out that they should avoid kickstarter and not support Onyx Path projects.  I feel for those few people and fuck those that choose to defend Onyx Path instead of accepting the reality for what it is.

I mean for crying out loud.  The guy who did Stars Without Numbers, Other Dust, and other games is only one man.  You don't see him fucking up on kickstarter.  He should be teaching the exalted team how to handle that.

Yeah I know the world of darkness books are quick in getting done, but the way they are handling exalted is not even funny.  It is a shame and the people of Onyx Path should feel bad about it because they did fuck it up.  Seriously at this point it might be wise to just ditch it.

Quote from: Snowman0147;764225First off are you a abyssal exalted because you certainly pulled some necromancery in this thread?

Joking aside that is six pages of bullshit I just read.  There are a few posts that I can sympathize with.  Mainly those posters that figured out that they should avoid kickstarter and not support Onyx Path projects.  I feel for those few people and fuck those that choose to defend Onyx Path instead of accepting the reality for what it is.

Exalted 3: Abyssal Bullshit Rationalization Stance