Quote from: Nexus;911413Thanks. I don't think that's "anti science" though but more here's weird dangerous fringe things for PCs to recklessly exploit to get power. .

Deadlands is big on the power at a price theme.  I should say that there are plenty of warning signs about using Ghost Rock that are being ignored at all levels of society.  There are some pretty serious red flags that the wider scientific community is ignoring or rationalizing.  The fact that it screams like damned souls when you burn it is the most obvious one.  Whether this is anti-science or not is debatable but it does show the scientific community as being grossly irresponsible at best.

Quote from: yosemitemike;911418Deadlands is big on the power at a price theme.  I should say that there are plenty of warning signs about using Ghost Rock that are being ignored at all levels of society.  There are some pretty serious red flags that the wider scientific community is ignoring or rationalizing.  The fact that it screams like damned souls when you burn it is the most obvious one.  Whether this is anti-science or not is debatable but it does show the scientific community as being grossly irresponsible at best.

Exactly. I am not trying to hold Deadlands as the ultimate screed against science. I am responding to a quote saying, "Deadlands wasn't anti-science at all."

It's a game where the dangers of science are heavily underlined.

Quote from: Baulderstone;911419Exactly. I am not trying to hold Deadlands as the ultimate screed against science. I am responding to a quote saying, "Deadlands wasn't anti-science at all."

It's a game where the dangers of science are heavily underlined.

Technically, that would be true if there was one antiscience NPC in one sourcebook and or antiscience character in one tie-in novel or game.  You're taking that a little too literally.

Quote from: Whitewings;911344Shadowrun was anti-corporate, not anti-science. Deadlands wasn't anti-science at all. The others weren't RPGs. And in White Wolf, real science, as in the stuff that we have in our world, the body of knowledge generated by rational inquiry, was wrong, evil or both. Nockers weren't scientists; they were tinkerers. The VAs were hackers, not scientists, and the Sons of Ether were defined by their application of outmoded, eccentric or just plain wrong theories. The Glass Walkers were just as big on spiritualism as any other tribe; they simply used different trappings and dealt with newer spirits, like Television or Automobile. Science and technology are two different things.

Look man, you can split hairs and move goalposts all you want, but the 90s had a heavy anti-authoritatian "Science is mostly bad, but not all of it" Vibe to it. It's also disingenuius as hell to say the entire WoD line was completely anti-science. The Glasswalkers used freaking cyberware... Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts made advanced technology in the hopes of pushing science further out of the Technocracy's hold on it... Nockers were the dreams of inventors and inventions..

And as Baulderstone said, Deadlands scientist used the souls of the damned and had Demons whisper technology in their ears. Shadowrun was Cyberpunk, which is all about Technology failing to address society's ills and sometimes even making it worse.. and if you go back to my original statement, I said Anti-Science was a big theme of the 90s.. everyone was doing it... WoD being a game set in the modern day, did it more than others... But other RPG's were doing it too.

Quote from: Brand55;911414Deadland's message is extremely simple.

DO work on innovations to help mankind.

DON'T play around with rocks infused with the ghosts of the damned by the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

That is all.

Always good advice.

JG

Quote from: yosemitemike;911423Technically, that would be true if there was one antiscience NPC in one sourcebook and or antiscience character in one tie-in novel or game.  You're taking that a little too literally.

I would be taking it to literally if Deadlands had one antiscience NPC in one sourcebook. Instead, it had a scientist PC class made up insane scientists being duped by demons into ending civilization.

I like Deadlands. I'm not trying to start a crusade against it. I am just saying that it really doesn't portray science in any kind of positive light.

Quote from: Baulderstone;911443I would be taking it to literally if Deadlands had one antiscience NPC in one sourcebook. Instead, it had a scientist PC class made up insane scientists being duped by demons into ending civilization.

I like Deadlands. I'm not trying to start a crusade against it. I am just saying that it really doesn't portray science in any kind of positive light.

Deadlands: posits a theoretical branch of science that emerges, which allows you to generate great power through evil.
Shadowrun: posits an environment wherein corporations are amoral at best, have great power, and control everything, including science.

WoD: posits repeatedly that science, as we know it today, is a lie and/or something used by the powerful to control/manipulate the weak.

Most people are going to see a clear distinction there.

It still doesn't seem "anti science" at all to me. "This particular occult material is dangerous and being handled recklessly." isn't condemning science or advancement as a whole is evil or the game is anti science as proposed.

Quote from: Sable Wyvern;911446Deadlands: posits a theoretical branch of science that emerges, which allows you to generate great power through evil.
Shadowrun: posits an environment wherein corporations are amoral at best, have great power, and control everything, including science.

WoD: posits repeatedly that science, as we know it today, is a lie and/or something used by the powerful to control/manipulate the weak.

Most people are going to see a clear distinction there.

The Sioux Union performs a ceremony which stops any form of Technology more advanced than the Bow and Arrow from functioning on their lands. This is what allows them to enjoy peace and prosperity, even through the Apocalypse itself. The world ends up Nuked to hell and back for Deadlands Hell on Earth.

Beyond this, WoD itself didn't have a blanket "Anti-Science" vibe either. Every WoD game was considered a Universe unto itself and had the 'right' mythology depending on which one you were playing. Vampire had absolutely nothing to say about Science, except for the fact it made taking over the Kine ludicrous, hence the need for the Masquerade.

Werewolf was not Anti-Science completely either. The Red Talons were the only Tribe who wanted to strip all Technology from Humans. The Glass Walkers even made magic technology fetishes. Mage was the closest to "Science=Bad" and even then it was far more nuanced than that. The Sorceror's Crusade has the Technocracy as the Good Guys still in the Order of Reason. The Order even formed initially to give science to the masses so the Wizard on the hill would stop oppressing them. It was stressed in Mage modern as well, that the Technocracy didn't have complete control of Science, and was going out of their way to narrow it and make it less useful so they could excerise greater control. Wraith had no anti-science message either beyond War is hell and makes a lot of Wraiths. Hunter: The Reckoning had no message about Science one way or another. Demon: The Fallen had a pro-science message considering two of the Angelic Types were all about the Science of the world since they helped create the laws of the universe.

Changeling was the one which had the greatest issues with Science, and even that varied from book to book because different writers and developers couldn't decide what was and was not banal. At one point smoking was banal, and then in Kithbook Nocker we learn a Nocker worked on the Manhattan Project. Changeling's greatest offense was being anti-psychiatry which is something that is absolutely stupid.

There were a lot of stupid things in original WoD, and there were books which did have a "Science bad!" ethos to them, but it was by no means blanket across the lines, from title to title, or even supplement to supplement.

Quote from: Orphan81;911425Look man, you can split hairs and move goalposts all you want,

There's some hair splitting and goal post shifting going on but I don't think its coming from Whitewings.

Quotebut the 90s had a heavy anti-authoritarian "Science is mostly bad, but not all of it" Vibe to it. It's also disingenuous as hell to say the entire WoD line was completely anti-science. The Glasswalkers used freaking cyberware... Sons of Ether and Virtual Adepts made advanced technology in the hopes of pushing science further out of the Technocracy's hold on it... Nockers were the dreams of inventors and inventions..

And as Baulderstone said, Deadlands scientist used the souls of the damned and had Demons whisper technology in their ears. Shadowrun was Cyberpunk, which is all about Technology failing to address society's ills and sometimes even making it worse.. and if you go back to my original statement, I said Anti-Science was a big theme of the 90s.. everyone was doing it... WoD being a game set in the modern day, did it more than others... But other RPG's were doing it too.

Who said WoD was the only setting that every did it? It was the setting/game line the exemplified and maintained a reputation for it that lasts to today. There were other games that used "anti science" theme but those were some bad examples. Deadlands "anti science" revolved around "Don't' use a screaming demonic ore." that's hardly a scathing condemnation of real worlds as being a force that is actively (and sometimes willfully) dooming the world (The Wyrm, The Weaver, Banality, etc). They trumpeted it as a game line in their settings. Even the "pro tech" groups were usually warped or corrupted in some fashion. The Glasswalkers about fall to the Weaver, Nockers grumpy banality laden. The Sons of Ether used a romanticized retro tech not "real" science thst was the realm of the Technocracy, the default bad guys. The VA were something of an exception but computers are kewl.

Orphan, you're nitpicking certain instances.  The Sioux Union uses magic to keep science and technology from working in their lands.  But science and technology still works perfectly fine everywhere else.  In fact, it works so well, it's still the number one way of causing or dealing with violence in Shadowrun.

In Deadlands, normal guns and trains and other devices, you know the stuff that doesn't use Ghost Rock work perfectly fine, just like it would in the 'real world' back then.  Ghost Rock technology was a subset of magic because of the properties of the stuff. But plain old lead, steam and steel?  Not an issue, and often was the better choice.

In WoD, just look at Mage and it took several centuries of human conditioning to make Science and Tech work.  And you have a subset of humans who deny that and make reality do what they want, outside of those 'rules'.

And that's just it, in WoD Science and Technology were nothing more than imposed rules that shackle humanity into a controlled jail that only the elite control.  Rules that could be broken by the right mindset, and the game world's 'heroes' were actually those who rebelled against Science and Technology.  That's a pretty heavy handed anti-science screed.

My argument, is that the entire WoD never had a "Anti-Science" vibe. Some of it did, but it was not Universal from game to game. The Anti-Science aspect was also tied into distrust of institutions which was rampant in the 90s and tied into Millenialism and showed up in other games as well. But fine, I'll bow out, you guys are right.

Edit: What the Hell am I doing? I've had this same damn argument countless times 20 fucking years ago.

Quote from: Orphan81;911453There were a lot of stupid things in original WoD, and there were books which did have a "Science bad!" ethos to them, but it was by no means blanket across the lines, from title to title, or even supplement to supplement.

And anyone who has tried to claim that everything written about WoD ever is anti-science is using a great deal of hyperbole (I'm pretty sure no one in this thread has said any such thing). This doesn't change the fact that it is a strong, consistent theme, one which lots of people have noticed.

The World of Darkness was a single entity very shortly afters its creation with the games sharing material, npcs, settings, metaplot and supplements. Yes, the initial idea was that they be separate "universes" sharing a single genre "Gothic Punk", a system and some concepts but that fell by the wayside pretty quickly both due to fan pressure and financial concerns such cross overs promoted cross "universe" sales. Honestly, I wish they had stuck  to their guns and kept the gamelines separate settings (Hell, I wish they'd done with Exalted) since several of the endemic problems with the WoD stemmed from cramming everything into one setting (conflicting cosmologies for one).