I think I'd rather make my own setting (Being a cripple means I have plenty of time, too much of it sometimes) and run it in my Superhero Game of Choice.

What a monumental cock-up 3e turned out to be.

Quote from: James Gillen;908553No, this really does strike me as parallel to Christianity, in particular all the theological debates that developed immediately before and after the Nicene Creed.  If anything, Islam has the opposite issue: Because it was never that formularized and bureaucratized, any thug can say "this is Islam" and it'd be hard to contradict him because it's not like there's an official body that can say, "no you're wrong."



I think we're agreed there.

JG

I can see that, although I think I can be forgiven for any assumptions as to how they (SJWs) think. It's not that I don't welcome criticism or realize that Christianity isn't without faults, it's that SJWs have this ignorant fear (or whatever the fuck it is) about seeing the world as it is. It's become so hard for me to wade into their pool of shit to find nuggets of truth/honesty.

Quote from: Nexus;908571The whole thing along with other aspects of the revised setting serves to reinforce my feeling that its a setting about being demigod heroes written by people that don't believe in heroism and may in fact be innately corrupt. Or at least uselesse so the game's mood is like some kind of historical sim with some flashy special effects but the mood that gray, boring and banal world is the best. That's fine for those that enjoy it but its not what expected or wanted out of the game.

I'm not sure what the deal is heaping more crap on the Solars. It brings to mind setting like Hunter: The Reckoning and Aberrant where the big surprise was that you were playing the nominal bad guys if you played the core characters. No big surprise in hindsight. ST has always been about playing monsters but again, not what I expected or wanted. At this point I wish they'd have just gone with what it seems was really wanted and gone with DB as the central characters. It felt increasingly like that since a point in 1st.

Something I like about Godbound is that it doesn't do these things. There's a setting and its grim but its presented as something you make better as a PC, if you want or bend to your will if you're so inclined not a precious darling where nothing major can be changed or any changes you make will be swept away in the tides of history like sand castes in a hurricane because that would be "unrealistic" Godbound doesn't preach, doesn't make you feel childish for wanting to actually be a hero or that the setting is there a unchanging set piece to marvel at but not touch.

The WW/OPP "monsterisms" work well in the WoD, however having it forced into anything they make comes off as stupid. Of course, look at their real-world views on power (or their perception of power); it's bad and if you do have it, it better be for the benefit of others, or else. That you suffer simply because you have power (unless you're what they view as good) is so arrogant. Of course you should better the world if you have power and wealth. Even if you're weak and poor you should strive to leave the world a better place. However, an inherent punishment levied on enlightened self-interest reeks of the typical views Rich & Friends are so fond of.

From a gaming point-of-view it's obnoxious corralling that hampers play. Godbound and Gods of the Fall don't do this and both...from what I've experienced...handle divine characters very well. One or the other may not be your thing (in either setting or system) but neither: A) force a way of thinking, B) have overly-complicated systems that don't handle the setting well, or C) were made by complete assholes (in fact both were made by very helpful, creative and kick-ass people).

Quote from: Nexus;908571At this point I wish they'd have just gone with what it seems was really wanted and gone with DB as the central characters. It felt increasingly like that since a point in 1st.

While you and i share some of the misgivings about Exalted and the people behind it, i very much disagree with this...all of it. Exalted was, since 1st Ed., about the Solars. And i really hope it will ever be. Because if they change that as well then they as well can rename the whole game because then it surely is no longer Exalted at all. Sure, DBs would make a good central splat as well...but that is beside the point. And i was never under the impression that the official stance on Exalted was what you describe. Not at all.

As an aside - i also liked the Savant & Sorcerer cover. Sure it was over the top and kind of an unnatural angle bla bla bla...but it's a cover for a game book, not a painting for the museum of anatomically correct art. Also, and that is what i find hilarious about the shit-storm around this cover...there was always sexy art in Exalted (and sexy is putting it mildly). Also, all the assholes who went wild about the S&S cover are now the exact same ones that congratulate Exalted for the "art" piece about Volfer's (not sure i spelled that right...the new signature dawn dude) crotch shot. Talk about double standards... . Fucking hypocrites, all of them.

Quote from: Anglachel;908600While you and i share some of the misgivings about Exalted and the people behind it, i very much disagree with this...all of it. Exalted was, since 1st Ed., about the Solars.

When Exalted was first being developed, the Dragonblooded were the central splat. That was changed fairly late in the game, ostensibly to avoid the feeling of power creep since DB were supposed to be the weakest. And there was some thought given to how you'd need to cram allot more setting into the core book to set up the Dragonblooded (The Realm and Lookshy in more detail at a minimum).

I'm not frustrated because I prefer the Dragonblooded, not at all. If they had been the core splat I doubt I would have looked twice at the game. They bore me as more of the same stuff WW/ST has been doing for years: clans of politically scheming, socially incestuous "monsters" engaging in patty politics and supposedly near the bottom of the totem pole. Except with elemental powers instead of fur or fangs. The Solars were at least promised something different. But it felt like they started getting the shaft more and more. Nerfed, fans of other groups bitching if they're alleged superior power was even actually demonstrated instead of being an Informed Ability because it wasn't "fair" or was "deprotagonizing" * and the associated noise.  And the writers and devs seemed to go along with it all, likely in part because as they so often do writing chores were farmed out to fanbase so it the inmates started running the asylum. I simply find the lip service annoying at this point. Just admit what you want to do and present the product as such. Stop trying to play both ends of the field. At least that's what it feels like for me.

*for example, it was apparently "deprotagonizing" for the1st age Sids and DB (NPCs, so who really cares) for their to be any doubt about the necessity of the Usurpation or any alternative. Even allowing for a singular Solar to not turn into a baby eating monster was just too damaging to the other splats. And then the hypocrtical fucks yammer on about things not being blaCK and white or' "cartoonish". So we end up with solars cast as inevitable monsters for being "too powerful" (when allegedly the gap is very narrow) but the Dragonbloooded who are told practically from birth how superior and entitled they are having it all under control excxept for some "bad apples" becaue the great holy texts poo-poo it. while jacking and enslaving half the damn setting.

No we got 300  or so monster solars that weren't the partners of the Lunars but enslaved them. Deus and Lillith relationship was a sickening exception before, an example of entrenched privilege and pride causing people to turn a blind eye to corruption and how insidious and damaging that can be but now it seems like its going to be the default.  

But at least they're not Solars (or Lunar I guess since they're concept as discussed by Holden can be summarized as "monster"). TH IO might be built on lies (and why hasn't their temporal power corrupt the bald monk dudes. Like it did the Shao lin in some periods?) but their conclusions are apparently spot on.  Which again, for me, makes it seem like the DB are unofficial focus.

Just a bunch of hypocrisy....

Quote from: Anglachel;908600As an aside - i also liked the Savant & Sorcerer cover. Sure it was over the top and kind of an unnatural angle bla bla bla...but it's a cover for a game book, not a painting for the museum of anatomically correct art. Also, and that is what i find hilarious about the shit-storm around this cover...there was always sexy art in Exalted (and sexy is putting it mildly).

Some of that became "bad" retroactively in the virtue signaling parades but not many seemed to mind at the time. I could write a laundry list of suggestive, sexy illos in Exalted, alot more than sideboob and thigh they lose their shit over now.  Hell for awhile the open and bold treatment of sexuality was considering a selling point, something that made that set Creation apart from other more vanilla conservative fantasy settings.  

QuoteAlso, all the assholes who went wild about the S&S cover are now the exact same ones that congratulate Exalted for the "art" piece about Volfer's (not sure i spelled that right...the new signature dawn dude) crotch shot. Talk about double standards... . Fucking hypocrites, all of them.

God that was annoying as fuck. And really put the cherry on the sundae this was the same crowd that griped about the Empress wearing a slit dress that showed some leg so it ended up with that jacked up photoshop cover up. You could be the farm there'd have been a flame storm visible from the moon if there was a female fighter in the book in nothing but a thong and a scrap of parchment on her breasts that translated "Property of Tepet Arada". The double standards run deeper than art too.

This thread makes me miss the good ol' 1E Exalted days when the sectarian nonsense between the various Exalted type fans was at its lowest. Oh and the system wasn't completely terrible.

Edit: Feck, if I recall correctly, the 2.5E errata essentially houseruled a bunch of stuff back to 1E precedents which is hilarious in hindsight. Was there any reason not to continue the 1E rules other than hubris?

Quote from: DeadUematsu;908666This thread makes me miss the good ol' 1E Exalted days when the sectarian nonsense between the various Exalted type fans was at its lowest. Oh and the system wasn't completely terrible.

Edit: Feck, if I recall correctly, the 2.5E errata essentially houseruled a bunch of stuff back to 1E precedents which is hilarious in hindsight. Was there any reason not to continue the 1E rules other than hubris?

Apparently the designers hit their Limit Break on hubris.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;908721Apparently the designers hit their Limit Break on hubris.

JG

Hiyoooooooo!

Quote from: DeadUematsu;908666This thread makes me miss the good ol' 1E Exalted days when the sectarian nonsense between the various Exalted type fans was at its lowest. Oh and the system wasn't completely terrible.

Edit: Feck, if I recall correctly, the 2.5E errata essentially houseruled a bunch of stuff back to 1E precedents which is hilarious in hindsight. Was there any reason not to continue the 1E rules other than hubris?

Yeah, there was. 1E was the best, but that doesn't mean it wasn't it's own kind of mess. Exalted 2E was kind of like D&D 3.0, the designers were using a different paradigm of play in their design, not realizing that people had moved on from that paradigm (For D&D it was that people would play 3.0 EXACTLY like 2E, that didn't happen; for Exalted, that people who are told they are supposed to be all powerful demigods WOULDN'T break the system over their knee to make that come true). Basically, they didn't see Jon Chung and the like coming. 3E, who fucking knows? I listened to the Off Topic podcast that was linked and the 'Exalted 2E house rules' comment put into words something that I couldn't.

Bottom line, I think EX2 was a valiant but failed effort to patch up the problems in EX1 that had cropped up.

The podcast brought up another thing that I really didn't notice but now that I think about is true. The oversized weapons have largely vanished. Which amuses me to no end because when I sad years ago that was downplaying that for my games because the aesthetic didn't do much for us I caught three different colors of crap for it like hoe it clearly had nothing at all to do with Final Fantasy's Buster Swords and big ass phallic symbol anime weapons but emulating the weapons in certain non Western mythology and were thus Serious Business for Serious Gamers to be Serious about.  So I wan't playing Exalted anymore.

It tickles me to no end that Godbound* does Exalted better than Exalted. Hell, like I mentioned before, I've been chatting with fans of Gods of the Fall* who feel it does a better job of at being a game of divine heroes than Exalted does. So we have two non-Exalted settings/systems as viable, good alternatives to the ass-vomit that is Ex3. Winning.

What makes me sad is when I see Ex3's still #1 on DTRPG...

*tastes may vary between OSR and the Cypher System, but I hope we can agree that either is a much better alternative to Ex3.

I love to hate Ex3...*content sigh*

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;908788It tickles me to no end that Godbound* does Exalted better than Exalted.

That's not a very high bar to clear.

The Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars line does Exalted better, and it's not even built for it!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;908807That's not a very high bar to clear.

Lower than the bar in a Smurf limbo contest.

QuoteThe Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars line does Exalted better, and it's not even built for it!

I know of two Dragonblooded focused games in GURPS that have been running successfully for quite awhile. GURPS is a good system but wouldn't be my first choice high flying Elemental Kung Fu but apparently it handles the setting better.

Quote from: Nexus;908811Lower than the bar in a Smurf limbo contest.

Quote from: Nexus;908811I know of two Dragonblooded focused games in GURPS that have been running successfully for quite awhile. GURPS is a good system but wouldn't be my first choice high flying Elemental Kung Fu but apparently it handles the setting better.

Personally, I agree.  Pick your superhero game of choice and run with it instead, I say.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;908807That's not a very high bar to clear.

The Fantasy Flight Games Star Wars line does Exalted better, and it's not even built for it!

I meant that OPP makes a bazillion in cash-money, treats its backers like ass, lies, is super-late and then the game sucks. Sine Nomine is a one-man-show that rakes in less, is open, helpful and transparent, delivers on time and the game rocks, doing Exalted better than Exalted.

Then you have a supplement for a generic, rules lite system that's part of a three-part KS...the other two parts having nothing to do with a game of divinity...and it does more in 160 pages than Ex3 does in 700.

Both alternatives need to be hacked and they still play better...

Exalted is good in theory and a nice "What if?" dream. In reality, it's like going to a club, seeing a really hot chick and when you get her home and slide her pants down a huge, unwashed dick falls out and hits you in the face.